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Hafta 601: Meta, Modi and the battle for India’s internet

The podcast where we discuss the week’s news. <figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-16/egtq656l/HAFTA-NEW.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="New Hafta cartoon featuring cutouts of Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal, and Abhinandan Sekhri. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>This week on Hafta, Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande and Shardool Katyayan are joined by the independent tech journalist Abhishek Baxi. The discussion began with the recent controversy between Meta and the Central government, triggered by the brief takedown of PM Modi’s video on Facebook and Meta’s wider clampdown on social media content.Speaking on the issue, Abhishek said, “It's quite a Wild West. There is a censorship apparatus that has been set up. Given the number of takedown requests the Indian government and its agencies send, Meta has had to automate moderation. In most democracies, takedowns are manual because there’s a clear legal process. In India, takedown requests have been doubling every year. The numbers are so high that manual intervention is simply not tenable anymore, and that’s exactly why these automated moderation errors happen.” Adding to Baxi’s point, Manisha said, “We’ve seen interviews disappear, we’ve seen our own posts get restricted, and there is never any explanation. I don’t think these platforms are going to fight the freedom of speech battle for us. They see India as a huge market and they want to continue doing business here.” Speaking on the government’s stance on the whole row, Shardool remarked, “It’s a sad fact that a government governing 1.4 billion people doesn’t understand Instagram. It takes one conversation with creators to understand how the platform works, but instead every viral trend is seen as a conspiracy.” The discussion then moved to the recent violence reported during the annual Kanwar Yatra. Looking at the big picture, Abhinandan asked, “Is the state accommodating religion, or is it pandering to religion?”All this and more.<iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ec3d9497cef7479d2ef4798/6a76c2ae237988582ed1cf9b" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Pueq_OiQsp8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pueq_OiQsp8" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>Hafta letters: <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/08/08/hafta-letters-godi-media-not-a-gen-z-protest-and-chetan-bhagat">Godi media, not a ‘Gen Z’ protest and Chetan Bhagat</a></ins>If you want to write to Hafta, <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/podcast-letters">click here</a></ins>. Click <ins><a href="http://newslaundry.com/sena">here</a></ins> to contribute to our Sena project. Check out the<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/store?routeName=NlStore"> Newslaundry store</a></ins> and flaunt your love for independent media. Download the<ins><a href="http://www.newslaundry.com/download-app"> Newslaundry app</a></ins>. Song:  - <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR3Vdo5etCQ">No Doubt - Don't Speak</a></ins>—------------------------------------------------------------------------------Timecodes00:00:00- Introduction00:04:00- Headlines00:16:04 - Meta and Centre row over PM’s video 00:43:15– Is the state accommodating religion, or is it pandering to religion?  01:03:16 – Abhishek’s recommendation 01:05:45 : Letters01:23:00 : Recommendations—------------------------------------------------------------------------------References<ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/nl-1947">Rs 1947 Free Subscription</a></ins><ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/mmmk">NL -TNM Joint Subscription</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/podcasts/south-central">South Central</a></ins>For Non- Subscribers – <ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/pl_TGWwtDUMNLsSAu/view">Get The Sticker. Pay to keep News Free</a></ins>For Subscribers – <ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/pl_TGXXxJVCbCceUU/view">Get The Sticker. Pay to keep News Free</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/07/30/at-least-75-dead-7-lakh-displaced-the-making-of-assams-annual-unprecedented-flood">At least 75 dead, 7 lakh displaced: The making of Assam’s annual ‘unprecedented’ flood</a></ins>—------------------------------------------------------------------------------RecommendationsAbhinandan Sekhri<ins><a href="https://indianexpress.com/article/express-exclusive/government-tech-fund-goes-to-private-firms-linked-to-panel-that-selected-them-10821494/">Rs 2,192 crore cleared, 62% for firms linked to government tech fund panel</a></ins>Manisha<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/08/06/smokescreens-sneakers-and-mass-reporting-balens-online-machine-against-nepals-press">Smokescreens, sneakers, and mass-reporting: Balen’s online machine against Nepal’s press</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/07/31/it-feels-like-mass-silencing-balendra-shahs-war-on-nepals-free-press">‘It feels like mass silencing’: Balendra Shah’s war on Nepal’s free press</a></ins>Shardool <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL9Lw250spc&t=648s">Why does every mammal get 1 billion heartbeats in their life?</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/08/04/one-year-after-dharali-the-growing-cost-of-building-in-a-fragile-himalaya">One year after Dharali: The growing cost of building in a fragile Himalaya</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxmIBtySyA4">Layika Se Layika</a></ins>Abhishek Baxi <ins><a href="https://www.amazon.in/Computing-Age-Decolonization-Technological-Revolution-ebook/dp/B0FHSMQMZT">Computing in the Age of Decolonization</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.amazon.in/Am-Not-Robot-Almost-Everything-ebook/dp/B0FPG1C5V4/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=58697678533&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Aa3IwxWIZ4vVEGgjuBJ3Rw.dmT8bbc2PI9SwbmNX9WiovGdsnSTI6_J53dF3sMahPg&dib_tag=se&gad_source=1&hvadid=749732242939&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9181766&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=4527203119582286375--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=4527203119582286375&hvtargid=kwd-2459232601106&hydadcr=23604_2349302&keywords=i+am+not+a+robot+joanna+stern&mcid=54d6ec41231334fabe40490e216f6084&qid=1786115495&sr=8-1">I Am Not a Robot</a></ins>Check out <ins><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VCmV6yr5t1LHE77Xp5-cYhWrQSkhW3A8nix310MvRQU/edit?usp=sharing">previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters</a>.</ins>Produced by Amit Pandey with production assistance from Saurav Kumar Ranjan. Sound by Anil Kumar.Hafta 601[00:00:00] Manisha Pande: This is a News Laundry podcast and you're listening to NL Hafta[00:00:11] Abhinandan: English अपना लगान और News Round भी अपना हफ्ता कभी नहीं छोड़ते। Welcome to another episode of Hafta from a very, very rainy Delhi. Yeah. It is pouring. [00:00:20] Shardool: And I'm happy. [00:00:21] Abhinandan: Okay, Shardul is happy, and he has shaved his beard in celebration. Uh, in case you hear some tar-tar, tar-tar sounds, it is the rain, and it is really coming down.[00:00:35] Abhinandan: Uh, before we get into the introductions of the panel, I would like to make an important announcement because we are launching the Give Us Our 1947 campaign. As you know, it is going to be Independence Day soon, and independence means a lot of things to a lot of us. But one thing about independence I had never really thought of till the brilliant, always insightful Jose Joseph enli- enlightened me, uh, when I was interviewing him on his book, Birth of a Nation, and he said this [00:01:05] Josy Interview: You know, Indian independence, as I know, I, I think it has become a cliche for me to say that- [00:01:10] Abhinandan: Mm[00:01:10] Josy Interview: I think it's the greatest triumph of journalism in human history. [00:01:14] Abhinandan: Independence itself? [00:01:15] Josy Interview: Yeah. Every freedom fighter being a journalist. Gandhi founded four newspapers. Ambedkar- That's [00:01:21] Abhinandan: interesting. I've never thought of it like that ... [00:01:22] Josy Interview: Yeah, Ambedkar four, Nehru one, Kesari. Mm. From Ghadar Movement to, uh, you take any movement across India or the world- [00:01:30] Abhinandan: Mm[00:01:31] Josy Interview: they may have been, you know, sailors and migrants and doctors and lawyers, but they were all journalists Journalists who held their pen against the mightiest of the empire, right? And Gandhi was a leading journalist of the time, the most prolific of the guys [00:01:50] Abhinandan: So I didn't realize either a lot of freedom fighters were journalists or many freedom fighters became journalists because it was a way to fight for freedom.[00:01:59] Abhinandan: So as Josie said, India's independence is the biggest feat that journalism has accomplished in the history of the world. And since journalists or j- people who transition to journalists got us freedom, and today's journalism is doing the opposite, we ask you to give us our 1947 back. You free journalism, just like journalism freed India all those years ago.[00:02:26] Abhinandan: So we have a special discount, a 1,947 subscription. Do subscribe. You also get these stickers, so you can proudly tell the world or you can give it to your friends that you pay to keep news free. It's very important. Think about it. Share this with your friends and relatives. Now, let me introduce the panel.[00:02:46] Abhinandan: In the studio, Manisha Pandey. [00:02:48] Manisha Pande: Hello. Shardul [00:02:48] Abhinandan: Katayan. [00:02:49] Abhishek: Hello. [00:02:50] Abhinandan: And joining us via Zoom is Abhishek Bakshi. Welcome, Abhishek. [00:02:55] Abhishek: Hello. Happy to be here. [00:02:57] Abhinandan: Abhishek is an independent technology journalist and a digital consultant. His reporting focuses on technology, digital policy, and the evolving internet ecosystem.[00:03:07] Abhinandan: His work has appeared in The Morning Context, Mint, T3 Magazine, Esquire India, News Laundry, Forbes, and several other leading publications. Thank you for joining us, Abhishek. Appreciate it. Uh, we will be discussing all these takedowns and suppression of pages, restriction of content, which is becoming more and more apparent and more and more ubiquitous.[00:03:30] Abhinandan: In fact, last week, three of our, uh, Insta posts have been restricted inside India. [00:03:36] Manisha Pande: Yeah. [00:03:37] Abhinandan: So only people outside India can view it, and I still don't know why. [00:03:41] Manisha Pande: Yeah. [00:03:41] Abhinandan: Uh, and- [00:03:42] Manisha Pande: We wrote also, but didn't get any reply. [00:03:43] Abhinandan: Yeah, we haven't got a reply. We've lis- written to Meta. Uh, we get legal notices every now and then to take this down.[00:03:50] Abhinandan: Our complaint has gone up to the ministry, so it's a free for all Uh, before we discuss all that with Abhishek, Manisha will give us the headlines. [00:04:00] Manisha Pande: Yes. Meta Platforms' Chief Global Affairs Officer has apologized to India's IT minister after the company briefly restricted a Facebook post by PM Modi in July.[00:04:11] Manisha Pande: In a statement, he said, "I apologize to the minister on behalf of Meta for the error restricting PM Modi's post." Last month, the Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology summoned Meta executives over the incident. The company later said the post had been mistakenly restricted due to an operational error.[00:04:26] Manisha Pande: According to reports, Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg apologized to Indian government over presence of deep sexual abuse material, deepfake content, and operational lapses on the platform. It's not clear though, right, if Mark Zuckerberg himself apologized for this? [00:04:43] Abhinandan: Well, this, I mean, they wanted him to, but I haven't seen any credible information that he personally apologized.[00:04:50] Abhishek: Um, there has been no information from Meta or from the government. Even the source-based information, uh, around it hasn't floated the name Mark Zuckerberg, except a report on Beyond News- [00:05:01] Clip video : Yeah ... [00:05:02] Abhishek: when Siddhant Sibbal, their journalist, tweeted. Um, again, this report, it does not say where this has come from, so there's no credible, uh, and- I, I fi- I, I find it very, uh, unbelievable that Mark Zuckerberg would apologize i- in, in the manner that the government, uh, uh, intends to, especially to a parliamentary standing committee.[00:05:21] Abhishek: Uh, but that's just my conjecture. I, I don't think there's, uh, has been any credible, uh, report around Mark, uh, apologizing, even though we know everything else that has happened in the meeting. [00:05:31] Manisha Pande: Hmm. Earlier, BJP MP Nishikant Dubey had demanded that Zuckerberg apologize within three days for Facebook's temporary removal of PM Modi's video.[00:05:38] Manisha Pande: The Goa bench of the Bombay High Court sentenced journalist Tarun Tejpal to 10 years in prison for the 2013 rape and sexual assault of a junior colleague, directing him to surrender within two weeks. Meanwhile, a Delhi court acquitted former Wrestling Federation of India chief Brij Bhushan Sharan Singh in the sexual harassment case filed by six women wrestlers.[00:05:56] Manisha Pande: Aspirants in Jharkhand are staging large-scale demonstrations and indefinite hunger strikes at Ranchi's Jaipal Singh Munda Stadium over alleged paper leaks, corruption, OMR sheet tampering in recruitment examinations conducted by the JPSC and JSSC. The Congress backed the students protesting in Ranchi over alleged irregularities in exams.[00:06:17] Manisha Pande: Senior party leader Rahul Gandhi said, "Every government must listen to students' concerns and take concrete steps to reform the education and recruitment system." Meanwhile, CJP founder Abhijeet Dipke said that the political campaign would operate as a pressure group for now. They also announced that they're gonna do, like, a nationwide listening tour where they wanna listen to people, what their problems are.[00:06:39] Manisha Pande: And they said that they can't go to Jharkhand because they're unwell right now. So then... But they, but they did a video call and... [00:06:46] Shardool: But e- e- even if they just listen to students and paper leaks and exam, um, like service leaks like SSC- Hmm ... they will have enough traction in every state. It's happening everywhere.[00:06:56] Shardool: Has been happening for a while [00:06:58] Manisha Pande: Hmm. The Lok Sabha on Thursday passed a bill amending the Payment and Settlement Systems Act, allowing the government to permit banks and payment service providers to levy charges on UPI and other notified digital payments. [00:07:13] Abhinandan: In fact, this also, Abhishek- Hmm ... I guess would fall within your area of expertise.[00:07:17] Abhishek: Of course. Of course, yes. [00:07:19] Abhinandan: So now by that logic, the incentive to transition to digital- Will go down ... goes down, right? Yeah. So I mean, if the idea was to go from cash to online- [00:07:33] Abhishek: Right ... [00:07:34] Abhinandan: I mean, someone like you and me wouldn't care if two, three rupees is charged for each transaction, but I, I don't get it. Like, [00:07:40] Abhishek: w- what- No, so the biggest cashless economy is China, where, uh, uh, mobile payments rule, unlike, uh, in the West, uh, especially in the US where credit cards, uh, is the major currency.[00:07:51] Abhishek: In China, it's all mobile payments, WeChat or Alipay. Uh, but Alipay also, uh, charges you after a certain threshold. So, uh, I, I don't know if the local regulations are different, but for a visitor like me, it's a certain amount, 300, uh, yuan. Uh, any transaction over 300 yuan, uh- Is charged ... and Alipay takes a cut.[00:08:11] Abhishek: So it, it's, uh, been happening all over. The problem with zero MDR, which the, uh, government wanted to push to transition people to, uh, cashless, so the merchants are, uh, also happily taking that and apps are also in the play, is that banks, uh, who own the NPCI. So NPCI is not a government body as such. It's, uh, formed under RBI and is owned by a cooperative of banks.[00:08:35] Abhishek: Now, those banks have challenges because they have to upscale their infrastructure all the time. So who will take care of that cost, basically? Because of the growth in transaction. So [00:08:43] Abhinandan: it's that cost that has to be [00:08:44] Abhishek: accommodated. It, it... That somebody has to bear that cost. And for a while now, the government is subsidizing, uh, that cost.[00:08:51] Abhishek: Uh, those subsi- subsidies are huge. And, uh, there has to come... And meanwhile, the number of transactions are obviously growing. Uh, some, some, uh, businesses are only based on UPI un- unlike, uh, uh, s- proper payment gateway. Some stores would only accept UPI and have stopped cash or credit cards. So the load on UPI is huge, and the banks have to, uh, and there are multiple participating banks in every transaction.[00:09:18] Abhishek: So one is the payer's bank, the payee's bank, and also the bank which is aligned within, uh- Right ... UPI app that you're using. So three banks work hard to get that 10 rupee transaction done. And banks have been g- gravy- uh, have been clamoring for, uh, MDR for a while now. But because it was a government, uh, zero MDR declaration, so they, they didn't have...[00:09:40] Abhishek: And I'm sure the lobby groups, uh- So- ... would have been active all this while. [00:09:44] Abhinandan: So maybe this, I mean, tell me if this is not the right question for you, but- And maybe it's to a financial journalist. Is this not good news for credit cards? Because then, because they give you an incentive to use credit cards, you know, you get- Yeah[00:09:56] Abhinandan: points earned, you get money off, you get, you know, certain benefits. Then would it not incentivize the increase in credit cards? And by that logic, should credit card use not go up because it is actually cheaper to use credit cards and you actually save money and also earn points? [00:10:11] Abhishek: So, uh, b- by that logic, yes.[00:10:14] Abhishek: But then, uh, UPI payment apps and the banks would also start bundling rewards or cash backs or, uh, whatever to, uh, incentivize UPI. A bank or a UPI app which does not have a credit card business would happily, uh, s- build rewards around it. So they [00:10:32] Abhinandan: probably would start doing that as well, is what you're [00:10:34] Abhishek: saying?[00:10:34] Abhishek: Yes. Got it. The, the, uh, debate here mostly is that UPI increases compliance because that there's money hitting the account instead of cash transactions. So the government also loses a chunk of revenue because a lot of merchants, and this is how, uh, things work in India, a lot of merchants will go back to cash if there is a significant MDR on UPI transactions.[00:10:57] Abhishek: And that, uh, would hit, uh, compliance, that would hit the tax revenue that the government gets. So it's, it's, uh, essentially a debate between can that tax compliance, uh, that revenue that comes out of, uh, hardened tax compliance subsidize UPI? Th- that is how it has been happening right, uh, till now. But, uh, the- Okay, got it[00:11:20] Abhishek: then it's mostly the cost for infrastructure, and, uh, somebody has to make money out of it. [00:11:24] Abhinandan: Noted. Yeah. [00:11:26] Manisha Pande: DMK leader Udayanidhi Stalin was released from police custody hours after being arrested over derogatory remarks targeting Chief Minister Vijay and actor Trisha Krishnan. Remarks were made at a protest rally.[00:11:36] Song: Hmm. [00:11:37] Manisha Pande: Prashant Kishor won the Bakipur assembly by-poll in Bihar on his electoral debut, defeating BJP's Neeraj Kumar by 19,000 votes. Remarkable victory, and- And this is- ... the seat has not been won by anyone other than BJP for a very long time. In Gujarat, Manjalpur by-poll, BJP candidate defeated Congress' candidate by more than 30,000 votes.[00:12:00] Manisha Pande: No surprises there. Meanwhile, in Madhya Pradesh Datia, Congress candidate Ghanshyam Singh defeated BJP's Ashutosh Tiwari by over 6,000 votes. [00:12:08] Abhinandan: And this seat was earlier held by? [00:12:09] Manisha Pande: BJP. [00:12:10] Abhinandan: BJP. I see. Okay. [00:12:11] Manisha Pande: The union government has spent more than 500 crores on PM Modi's foreign visits since 2021. That's what the Ministry of External Affairs told the parliament.[00:12:23] Manisha Pande: Meanwhile, the Narendra Modi government spent 900 crore on print advertisements between 2020 and 2025. This is also a disclosure in Parliament by Ministry of Information and Broadcasting. Among the newspapers, Times of India received the highest share of government print advertising at 78 crore. And- [00:12:40] Abhinandan: And [00:12:41] Manisha Pande: of course, there's also the Yogi government, not to be left behind.[00:12:44] Abhinandan: Mm. Double engine, double engine. [00:12:46] Manisha Pande: Uh, he spent more than Yogi, uh, Modi. [00:12:48] Abhinandan: There's almost- He's [00:12:49] Manisha Pande: out- ... [00:12:49] Abhinandan: almost three crores a day ... [00:12:51] Manisha Pande: 2.3 crore a day- 2 [00:12:53] Abhinandan: point- ... in [00:12:53] Manisha Pande: eight years. Um, [00:12:54] Abhinandan: so [00:12:54] Manisha Pande: yeah. [00:12:55] Abhinandan: So, so that is how your legacy news is funded, just so you know. Mm-hmm. And that's why we've always said, when the government pays, the government is served.[00:13:03] Abhinandan: When subscribers pay, subscribers are served. So please scan this QR code. Pay to keep news free, give us back our 1947. Give media independence, just like journalists fought for our independence all those years ago. 'Cause if this is how media continues to be funded, there is no way media is gonna serve the public [00:13:24] Manisha Pande: The death toll from Assam's floods has risen to 95- Whoa[00:13:28] Manisha Pande: since the third week of July, with five more deaths reported on Wednesday. It's completely catastrophic. [00:13:33] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:13:34] Manisha Pande: In fact, we have a reporter there who we've been wanting to send, but it's raining so much that it's very difficult to reach these places. So rescue operations are also hard, but even it's difficult to get journalists there to tell us the extent of devastation, but- [00:13:47] Abhinandan: But you can read a piece by- Yeah[00:13:48] Abhinandan: Manoranjan Pegu- [00:13:49] Manisha Pande: Yeah ... [00:13:50] Abhinandan: who is a developmental scholar, and he is from- [00:13:55] Manisha Pande: Yeah ... [00:13:55] Abhinandan: there actually, and he's written a very insightful piece. [00:13:58] Manisha Pande: The Calcutta High Court observed that the heavens will not fall if all six stanzas of Vande Mataram are sung in madrasas. Mm. Remarks came while hearing a PIL challenging a West Bengal government notification mandating the song's rendition in all madrasas u- under the Minority Affairs and Madrasa Education Department.[00:14:15] Abhinandan: We [00:14:16] Manisha Pande: will- Swift progress happening in West Bengal ... [00:14:17] Abhinandan: we will discuss this on how laws- Okay ... are they accommodating religion or are they pandering to religion? [00:14:25] Manisha Pande: Y- a US Senate committee has voted to hold former top health official Anthony Fauci in contempt of Congress after he refused to answer questions during a hearing on his handling of COVID-19 pandemic.[00:14:35] Abhinandan: Mm. This is- Bangla- ... actually very scary if you see the way they're going at him. And of course, it's kind of embarrassing, the diary excerpts of his that they read out, which is shocking that they did that. Of course, it makes him look a little ridiculous. But I mean, if we think we are going far, our government is going far in, you know, cracking down on people they don't like, what Trump is doing is insane.[00:15:03] Abhinandan: I mean, that is... They read out his diary excerpts, of course, was very cringe. Stuff like, you know, "I'm getting texts from celebrities," 'cause everyone wanted to know ... Yeah. So he's, he's also a bit... And this is something that, you know, the, the nerd who be- gets old and suddenly- Yes ... all the hot celebrities want [00:15:22] Manisha Pande: to- So sweet, but he's writing a diary about, diary entry about [00:15:25] Abhinandan: it.[00:15:25] Abhinandan: He's diary, diary, diary about who texted him, who he spoke to, how everybody hangs on to every word he says. The nurses break into giggles when I enter the hospital. It's, like, really embarrassing. So humbling. But the fact that they can do this just to spite a guy is insane. [00:15:38] Shardool: US government is speed running US's demise.[00:15:40] Abhinandan: Yeah, exactly. Mm. [00:15:42] Manisha Pande: Bangladesh has expressed outrage over former Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina's public media appearance from Delhi, saying it could undermine efforts to reset bilateral ties with India. [00:15:51] Abhinandan: Yep. That, she's been here for a while. [00:15:54] Manisha Pande: And speaking to the press- [00:15:56] Abhinandan: And at some point she said- ... giving interviews[00:15:57] Abhinandan: she's gonna go back. I mean, that is- Yes ... gonna be a, another foreign affairs tightrope that they'll have to walk. But yeah, Mr. Bakshi, coming to you, um, three broad points, and you can just elaborate on this. One is several politicians, including Arvind, has shown his You know, Meta- Mm-hmm ... that way Meta is very transparent.[00:16:16] Abhinandan: Restricted. It's restricted. They haven't explained why or how. Um, one journalist has also said all the violence that we see that cabbies are unleashing on shops, vans, vehicles, people, that's being taken down or suppressed. Uh, and our pieces have been, uh, two of our posts on Instagram have been, are unavailable in India, and we don't know why.[00:16:42] Abhinandan: What is the law around this? How worrying is it? And- Does the government or even Meta have the bandwidth to respond to each challenge? If they're doing it by the thousands, I'm assuming. If we personally know of, you know- Mm ... over a dozen cases where this is happening, is there a system in place that can technology even handle it, or are we in actually a phase where it's the Wild West and we have to find some equilibrium going forward?[00:17:10] Abhinandan: I- [00:17:10] Abhishek: it's quite a Wild West, as you said. Uh, there is a censorship apparatus that has been set. And, uh, given the number of, uh, requests for takedown that the Indian government and Indian agencies send, uh, Meta has to automate them. So in most countries, in most democracies at least, uh, the takedowns are manual, uh, because there's a, a legal setup how to send a request.[00:17:35] Abhishek: In India, it's a CIO portal. And- And it's a reasonable [00:17:37] Abhinandan: number ... [00:17:39] Abhishek: it's a reasonable number. In India, for the last few years, and The Hindu reported it earlier this year, uh, the takedown requests are doubling by the year. So the takedown requests number is so high that they have to get into automation, because manual intervention, uh, i- is not tenable for that large number of takedown requests.[00:17:58] Abhishek: And because of that moderation, that automated moderation is what they also say is the technical glitch that took down Modi's video, which is when the entire Kerfuffle, uh, broke open. [00:18:10] Manisha Pande: What was his video about, Modi's? [00:18:12] Abhishek: This was the first reel on July 23rd that, uh, Mr. Modi posted talking to his friends when [00:18:21] Manisha Pande: he wanted to- Okay.[00:18:21] Abhishek: Okay, okay, okay. That makes- So it was for ta- taken down and for five hours it was on- For a brief while, and then [00:18:25] Manisha Pande: it went up again. [00:18:27] Abhishek: Yeah. It, it was reinstated in five hours once it was, uh, uh, brought into focus to, uh, Meta. [00:18:33] Manisha Pande: Mm. [00:18:33] Abhishek: Now, Meta has apol- apologized for that particular, uh, issue, and not for many other things that, uh, random, uh, source-based news has leaked out.[00:18:44] Abhishek: Uh, there's been too much, uh, information, and they've used words like paid, specific audience. Uh, Meta has apologized for paid con- That is their business model. I, I don't know why, uh, basic due diligence is missing. I mean, I, I know you crib about it all the time. Mm. But Meta's business model is getting paid to share the messages to a specific audience.[00:19:08] Abhishek: So businesses pay Meta that take my audience to 20-year-olds because this is the product I'm selling. Yeah. That is their business model. So there, there's no confession there. There's no issue there. But those words help because paid content, specific audience, those words help hype up, uh, the narrative that, uh, some, uh- journalists, uh, if I may, uh, use the word, uh, have been trying to spin this meeting up.[00:19:34] Abhishek: But the apology, uh, the apology was for takedown, uh, which, uh, they said was a technical glitch. Uh, the, uh, Ministry of Electronics and IT officials, uh, didn't really buy that, and so, uh, the chief global affairs, uh, officer had to fly down and speak to them, and he apologized to Ashwini [00:19:57] Abhinandan: Vaishnaw as [00:19:57] Manisha Pande: well.[00:19:57] Manisha Pande: Right. Mm-hmm. In fact, uh, Peak TV's Priyanshi also tweeted, she had put out, uh, on Instagram just an interview with one of the CJP protesters- Mm ... woman protester who had been hounded, uh, trolled, abuses thrown her way, uh, just for just basic reels that she'd done. Mm. So she'd done an interview and that, uh, you know, woman has gone and spoken to many people, including us.[00:20:21] Manisha Pande: So Meta pulled that down, and then they put it again, and again pulled it down. So now there's no explanation for why so many things are just being deleted, restricted. Our own channel, we've had three very innocuous videos- Yeah ... restricted. And I think we were expecting that after this whole CJP protest because I think the government's thinking is that this has just happened because of Instagram.[00:20:43] Manisha Pande: They don't get Instagram. [00:20:44] Song: Mm. [00:20:45] Manisha Pande: They got WhatsApp. [00:20:46] Song: Mm. Mm. [00:20:47] Manisha Pande: But I think Instagram is a mystery for them, and so I think maybe one arm of the government does think that there's something nefarious happening here, that how could it have blown up. Who... I think, uh, it was, uh, reported in the news minute that one of the questions asked was that how is it that an upstart like CJP could get more views and followers than- Right[00:21:06] Manisha Pande: traditional opposition parties? Like, why is the, why is the Congress behind CJP? [00:21:11] Abhishek: Yes. So there was a real concern in the meeting about why did CJP or student protests, uh, have such large number of... And basic thing is such large number of likes on anti-government posts. Uh, this was one of the question put out.[00:21:25] Abhishek: And, uh, you are correct, uh, they, they weren't wondering just about BJP, they were wondering why an upstart like CJP or the student protest, uh, videos in general were getting more reach than Congress or any other established, uh, uh, political parties. [00:21:40] Manisha Pande: So I think it's such a platform which is alien to them that it was expected that they would clamp down or find ways to control it and arm twist Meta into things.[00:21:51] Manisha Pande: And I think we are gonna see more of it because I also feel that all these platforms, ultimately, the way they view India, and they do view it as third world. Mm. They may look at it as a giant market and all that. Mm. But they look at us as let them get what they deserve. So I don't think they're gonna fight this freedom of speech fight for us, and which is why I think we need to really keep questioning platforms on why they're removing things, where's the transparency, where's the accountability.[00:22:14] Manisha Pande: Because for them it's gonna be like, "Okay, that's what the government wants." You know, like, "We can't do much. If your government wants to clamp down, it's not something that we can-" [00:22:23] Abhinandan: And, and th- yeah, and they don't care one way or the other. [00:22:24] Manisha Pande: And they wanna do business here, that's it. [00:22:26] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:22:27] Shardool: Yeah. So I... It, it's a such a sad fact that the government which is governing 1.4 plus billion people doesn't understand Instagram.[00:22:35] Shardool: Like, it, it takes one day's interview to find four influencers who will jot it down for you, okay, what needs to be done. The other thing is, like you said, well, that's why I sort of, um, it popped into my head when you were talking that- They, they don't care about freedom of speech. None of these platforms do.[00:22:54] Shardool: They are selling addiction. They've already settled lawsuits- Sure ... in March in California, recently a Kentucky school, and today while we are sitting five hours ago, they've been ordered by a New Mexico judge, Meta has been ordered for 900 plus million total because they knew it was addictive just like tobacco industry.[00:23:12] Shardool: I remember, uh, Jeffrey Wigand came in- [00:23:14] Yogi video : Yeah, [00:23:15] Shardool: yeah ... one of the media members. [00:23:16] Yogi video : Yeah. [00:23:16] Shardool: It's almost just different kind of addiction. They knew it is addictive, and they are selling it. But the government of India, look They see conspiracy in everything because that's their level. Like, I, I was laughing when Nishikant Dubey was saying Mark Zuckerberg has to apologize in three days.[00:23:59] Shardool: Hmm. Which you can, w- you know, bully. The other part is- ... like this, th- this CEO has to come, poor Joel Kaplan, he would have come on private jet. But our- Poor ... poor as in, like, metaphorical. [00:24:16] Manisha Pande: Hmm. [00:24:16] Shardool: But the point is that these companies now, especially Meta or Alphabet, they are running multiple country governments.[00:24:25] Shardool: These companies are too big now. Like, uh, I think we talked about it couple of years ago when, uh, Facebook/Meta had hired an ex-PM candidate of UK or someone as their p- chief officer in Europe, some major role. But the point is that resources required to measure every request is being hogged by our government.[00:24:49] Shardool: Our government is number one in the world in take down requests, be it X, be it Meta. [00:24:55] Song: Hmm. [00:24:55] Shardool: So mere mortals like us- [00:24:58] Abhishek: Hmm ... [00:24:58] Shardool: and regular people w- whose photos have been morphed, who have had some problem or there is a revenge porn or something, or CSAM, which BBC did couple of weeks ago, that report came out that CSAM was being, uh, advertised, child sexual material, on Meta and Instagram.[00:25:17] Shardool: They don't even get the quarter because government is hogging all the resources which Meta, uh, or X assigns, and they're already cutting resources which started, which was started by Elon Musk. So all of this looks like a perfect storm where governments are dealing with corporate governments, and we can just exist and consume their propaganda.[00:25:37] Abhinandan: So, I mean, clearly the dominance of these tech players is becoming bigger and bigger. Are we seriously gonna be looking at a complete rejigging of how it is, the, the monopoly position? Will there be- Cut up. I mean, I've heard enough opinions that that is the only way forward. But the point is, when will that happen?[00:26:00] Abhinandan: And by then, would too much damage have already been done to democracies like India? [00:26:04] Abhishek: So yeah, uh, fragmenting, uh, especially Alphabet, this conversation has been happening for quite a while, uh, Google separating its businesses. Meta, on the other hand, has been acquiring businesses. So WhatsApp and Instagram were acquired by, uh- Yeah[00:26:17] Abhishek: then Facebook, now Meta, and they've been building this empire where also the data, uh, transfers across their businesses. So the, the problem here is... And it's, it's very awkward to come to defense of, uh, uh, these platforms, Meta or Google or anybody. But what we are here now seeing is a political economy being built via these, uh, platforms.[00:26:35] Abhishek: And, uh, the entire standing committee, uh, Kulfur and Nishikant Dubey's, uh, grandstanding. Mm. He also said, uh, Meta[00:26:47] Abhishek: is destabilizing democracy, which he never said, uh, for, for any of the other, uh, Meta's ills, but only because, uh, video of Prime Minister Modi was, uh, taken down. So their concern is very limited. As, as he mentioned, uh, the resources are spent on appeasing to the government, uh, taking care of their takedowns or, uh, mar- marketing their efforts rather than, uh, the important things.[00:27:12] Abhishek: CSAM is one area where, uh, th- there's no black and whi- uh, black or white. Everybody wants CSAM to be taken care of. In fact, one of the major, uh, things being discussed in these meetings was CSAM. Um, the apology and then we'll work on it, we'll take care of things was mostly said about CSAM because of the BBC investigation a couple of weeks ago.[00:27:34] Abhishek: Uh, and even without that investigation, the government has al- always been working on that. Like, like I said, there's no, uh, left versus right or BJP versus Congress in, in, uh, in cases like CSAM. But when it comes to, uh, putting, uh, out- messages which are aligned with the political party. Um, in 2020, uh, 2022, uh, one of the whistleblowers who was a chief data scientist at, uh, Meta s- uh, he, he was a whistleblower, uh, for, for quite many things, but he also mentioned that, uh, Meta is lenient in India on BJP and RSS, uh- Yeah[00:28:14] Abhishek: propaganda. This was confirmed by Sophie, uh, who was the second whistleblower, uh, another, I, I guess, two years later. So we, we know this for a fact, but we've never taken care of that. Um, the problem by Meta, uh, you, you mentioned that it's business for them and, uh, they rather ... Pritha says third one is because of no pushback from here also, by media, by, uh, the civil groups- Mm[00:28:39] Abhishek: and obviously the government is, uh, not doing anything except aligning them, uh, uh, for their interest and to build that political economy. So we, unlike US, uh, where the pushback, they, they put out, uh, Donald Trump from Twitter. They can only do that in US. Five hours of a post taken down is a huge issue here Uh, Donald Trump had to win election, get a guy to buy Twitter-[00:29:04] Abhishek: to get his account back. Mm. It's, it's that big an exercise. So, uh, also this is the first time, and this is unprecedented, that India or any other democracy has threatened that we'll take safe harbor. Uh, this was very callous, uh, coming from Nishikant Dubey. Uh, but, uh, this is the first time- Would you just [00:29:22] Abhinandan: explain that for our audience who don't understand the concept of safe harbor when it comes to the tech giants?[00:29:27] Abhishek: Okay. Uh, so quickly, uh, safe harbor is, uh, where these platforms are intermediaries for the content that users generate on their platforms. I post, uh, something on Facebook or a video on YouTube, it is my content. Uh, the company is not liable for it, as long as they have moderation exercise and they are taking care of unlawful activities.[00:29:52] Abhishek: Right. So if I post a pornographic video on YouTube, now with, uh, much advancement, the auto moderation, uh, should kick in and that video should not even be uploaded. But even if it has, and, uh, the authorities have informed, uh, the compliance office, the video should be taken down in quick, uh... and then there's a timeline, which is also a major contention now.[00:30:13] Abhishek: So th- that is safe harbor. Uh, this all came about, uh, from the very infamous and very awkward, uh, incident where Baazee CEO, um... There was two kids making out, doing their kids things. The video got leaked, famous, uh, uh, MMS scandal. And the video, because this was time when the internet was not everywhere, so the video was put in, uh, on a CD that was sold on Baazee.com, which was an eBay property.[00:30:40] Abhinandan: Is that right? [00:30:40] Abhishek: It started there. I'm not aware [00:30:41] Abhinandan: of this. Sorry. I clearly am under a rock. This- [00:30:43] Abhishek: The B- uh, DPS, uh, MMS, uh, issue. Mm. The whole thing with two kids. [00:30:50] Abhinandan: Yeah. The [00:30:50] Abhishek: video was about- This, I think, was back in 2003 or '[00:30:50] Abhinandan: 04 or something like that. Yeah, yeah, 2003 or '04. [00:30:53] Abhishek: It's, uh, 2004. 2004. [00:30:55] Abhinandan: Oh. So- Okay. Sorry. Wait, so- [00:30:57] Abhishek: Safe harbor is, uh...[00:30:58] Abhishek: in India, safe harbor came from, uh, that [00:31:02] Abhinandan: case when- So, so basically- Uh, a couple- ... Baazee was a website where I could put up stuff for sale, like eBay, basically, right? Yes, yes. eBay. So, yeah, eBay acquired Baazee, [00:31:08] Abhishek: yeah. [00:31:09] Abhinandan: So someone puts that out- [00:31:11] Abhishek: And started [00:31:12] Abhinandan: selling it on Baazee.com [00:31:14] Song: Yes. [00:31:14] Abhishek: Yeah. And Baazee's CEO- Oh my God[00:31:16] Abhishek: who was a, a Indian origin person, but, uh, an American US citizen, he got arrested for that. And this was the first time a CEO was arrested, uh- Mm ... for, for something like this. Uh, this is what brought, uh, the 2008 IT rules, uh, the first time when this was considered, and the intermediaries were given some protection, uh, against criminal lawsuits of that sort.[00:31:38] Abhishek: I [00:31:38] Abhinandan: see. [00:31:38] Abhishek: Then that became the 2021 IT rules. So, but, but, so [00:31:41] Abhinandan: I get that. But the, so the, but the same logic, I mean, doesn't seem to ... I, I'm not saying that the government should have that kind of power, but there I get. Like, you are responsible for something like that being sold. I mean, it could be a, you know, missile launcher tomorrow.[00:31:54] Abhinandan: It could be, you know, anything. But, but in case of Insta and all these, they actually do in some way decide who sees what, right? Their algorithms decide that more people- Right ... will see this and less people will see this. So logically speaking, I mean, if I strip away what one thinks of the values this government espouses, it's not fairness or democracy or whatever else it is, but just by strictly by law I would not completely exonerate tech companies because if it was just a c- c- thing that, uh, like what Facebook was when it had just started, right?[00:32:31] Abhishek: Right. [00:32:31] Abhinandan: People who I was friends with- Chronological [00:32:33] Abhishek: posts ... [00:32:34] Abhinandan: who I was friends with- [00:32:35] Song: Mm ... [00:32:35] Abhinandan: in the chronology where they've posted is what my scroll would be. Yeah, only that. If you posted one hour back, I would see you. If you posted two hours back, you'd be next, next, next. When the algorithm started deciding what I see, then they cannot really absolve themselves, right?[00:32:50] Abhinandan: Or am I being too simplistic about this, Abhishek? [00:32:52] Abhishek: Uh, no, you're correct. Uh, so all this has come from, uh, Section 230 of, in the US, which is the original safe harbor regime. It came in 1996. Uh, it's part of the Act Communications Decency Act, which is a very nicely, decently named, uh, act. Uh, S- Section 230, it says it's also called, uh, mostly in tech circles, it's, uh, called the, uh, 26 words that created internet.[00:33:17] Abhishek: Mm. Because, uh, the one line that explains that, uh, the platforms are not, are not publishers, they are intermediaries, is what defined how... And 1996 is when internet was just starting up, so that has defined how these social media companies came about. Uh, they got their scale. Uh, they could host content, uh, from, from, uh, from across users in, in any form.[00:33:42] Abhishek: And it also protected moderation, which is the key because, uh, most people think that it allowed people to post anything and the companies to just build platforms for it, but it also gave them the right to moderate. So otherwise, it was a matter of free speech, and there was a sheer single judgment in India as well.[00:33:59] Abhishek: So, uh, this, uh, s- safe harbor, uh, the word also came with Section 230 1996 US. Now, in India as well as in European Union, uh, because they are also s- uh, w- they also have issues with just the point that you mentioned. And what they are doing is tightening compliance requirements Now, world over there is debate about algorithms because th- those are opaque.[00:34:23] Abhishek: There's no, uh, transparency on, on... In fact, even in safe harbor, which despite political pressure, uh, has never been revoked in the US, but Republicans claim that they censor conservative views. The Democrats claim it, uh, they don't remove harmful content enough. So it, it's been a matter of debate in the US as well.[00:34:44] Abhishek: But they are, uh, letting it be. In the US and India, we've, we've take, uh, sorry, in the European Union and India, we are taking, uh, safe harbor with definite compliance requirements and making that stricter and stricter. Now, algorithms are something nobody's asked transparency for as yet, and, um, that is the capital that, uh, these platforms are built on.[00:35:07] Abhishek: But, uh, how to get about it, how to remove content, how to moderate content is the debate that, uh, these two administration, EU and India, are trying to have with, uh, all these platforms. [00:35:19] Abhinandan: Now coming to- [00:35:20] Abhishek: Which is not wrong. The- these need, these platforms need to be regulated- [00:35:23] Abhinandan: Absolutely ... [00:35:24] Abhishek: but, but also insulated from the political, uh, [00:35:27] Abhinandan: pressure.[00:35:27] Abhinandan: Yeah, I think the problem is for, you know, people like us, and by people like us, I mean media platforms that are dependent heavily on the internet and social media for our, you know, supply o- o- for our- Distribution ... distribution. Um- You are caught between two who basically don't have your interest in mind.[00:35:48] Song: Yeah. [00:35:49] Abhinandan: In India especially, you know? [00:35:51] Song: Yeah. [00:35:51] Abhinandan: Like you said, for very different dynamics, the US tech giants don't give a shit about our democracy. And in fact, I don't know, these algorithms throw up and they hear what we're talking about. They throw up an old interview of Nelson Mandela being grilled by this American journalist, that how is it, you know, how are, how is supporting Gaddafi and Cuba in line with your, um, uh, principles of, uh, uh, human rights because they are such abuse of human rights?[00:36:21] Abhinandan: I don't, you know, that line of questioning. [00:36:22] Shardool: I love, I love that [00:36:23] Abhinandan: interview. And I loved Nan- Mandela's response. He says, "Of course, it's consistent. When we were looking for, you know, a, a safe harbor," in the sense of not- Mm-hmm ... in the tech sense. [00:36:32] Song: Yeah. "[00:36:32] Abhinandan: But people to support our, uh, activists so that they have a safe place to carry out their entire campaign from, the first people we approached was America.[00:36:43] Abhinandan: Not only they did not even respond to us, they were actually working with the apartheid government supporting them." [00:36:50] Song: Yeah. "[00:36:50] Abhinandan: At that time Cuba said, 'Yes, we will support you no matter what,' as did Gaddafi." Mm. [00:36:53] Song: Yeah. "[00:36:54] Abhinandan: So you don't tell us whose principles I should follow." [00:36:56] Song: Yes. '[00:36:56] Abhinandan: Cause America is not my, you know, protector- Yeah[00:36:58] Abhinandan: of human rights." So I think that now for someone like us, the US tech giants don't have our interest in mind at all. They would happily throw us under the bus as long as they get their, uh, uh, uh, profit. [00:37:10] Yogi video : Yep. [00:37:10] Josy Interview: Mm. [00:37:10] Abhinandan: The government, the less said the better. So it's, I mean, especially for India, it is an extremely unique problem.[00:37:17] Abhinandan: Now electorally speaking, uh, Shardul, the committee that was, uh, that had summoned the, uh, c- chief of India's public policy is Nishikant Dubey and Kangana Ranaut as the two people who were on that committee. I think Nishikant- Yeah ... Dubey heads the committee, so I want to know- [00:37:33] Shardool: Kangana Ranaut was in it? [00:37:34] Abhinandan: I want to know what, I want to be a fly on the wall at what was the question that happened with Kangana Ranaut.[00:37:38] Abhinandan: But electorally speaking, Shardul, this hyperactive drive that the government has come into, do you think they have a goal in mind, or they're just floundering in the dark slapping anything that comes their way? Because, like, I think Print has a piece that BJP is the WhatsApp party. [00:37:56] Manisha Pande: Yeah. [00:37:56] Abhinandan: They don't understand Insta, and they're just slapping anything that- [00:37:59] Manisha Pande: And now there's like an Insta thing happening [00:38:02] Shardool: Right.[00:38:03] Shardool: Look, my way of an-analyzing anything is you try to look at their core motivations. [00:38:08] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:38:09] Shardool: And they are acting like diva. This government, which the... I was thinking about it when Manisha was reading the headlines. The highway expressway from Kanpur to Lucknow, which took 4,800 crore, fell within the week- [00:38:27] Abhinandan: Hmm[00:38:27] Abhinandan: when [00:38:28] Shardool: Nitin Gadkari was saying, "I've been invited by Dubai to make roads." These are shameless people, and they only care about immediate gains. Like, may I use the Hindi word? Sure. It's a bit crude. It's called Hmm. Even if they're making big money and big power, they still do They want immediate gain. [00:38:45] Song: Hmm.[00:38:47] Shardool: Electorally, of course, they will try to gain wherever they can. But in my opinion, what they will try to do is first they cut other person's access short. Like, we know that they're asking how is CJP getting this? [00:39:02] Song: Hmm. [00:39:03] Shardool: Even the basic political understanding an analyst would find out, would be able to understand that why CJP was getting that traction But they don't, because for that you have to have the sagacity, a bit of humility, that this is something I don't understand, let me ask some- someone.[00:39:22] Song: Mm. [00:39:23] Shardool: Like, when I did not know what was happening, I opened up the internet and I read, and I analyzed. But expecting Nishikant Dubey and Kangana Ranaut to do that is just [00:39:33] Manisha Pande: And actually, the problem is that whatever they're doing is just not working for them right now. Every, you know, video that Modi puts out, it's just meme material for Instagram.[00:39:45] Manisha Pande: And to be fair, I don't think this is the Cockroach Janata Party. We've been seeing this on Instagram for a while. In fact, we've had these conversations for a while. Like, for about a year or so, um, people talking about roads, about bridges falling- Yes ... about the state of infrastructure. It's just... You know that, uh, video that went viral, like, through the roof, and then they pulled it down, where this comedian is, you know, pretending to be Modi abroad?[00:40:10] Manisha Pande: Oh. You know, with that coin on his head. [00:40:12] Abhinandan: No, I haven't seen this. Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. [00:40:14] Manisha Pande: That, that- You've seen it, of course ... that last kind of question, yeah ... where they're laughing and then this guy started confronting him. Yeah, yeah. "What are you doing? Don't laugh." [00:40:18] Abhinandan: Huh. [00:40:19] Manisha Pande: That, like, it shot through the roof, and then they pulled it down, I believe, [00:40:22] Abhinandan: right?[00:40:23] Abhinandan: Because- Right. Yeah. Hmm. [00:40:24] Manisha Pande: So it's been happening on Instagram for a while. Uh, this takedown of BJP, and I think because it's one of the few places where there's an outlet, like I- Yes ... we've discussed this before. Twitter is just a terrible place to be on right now. It's a hell hole. It's a hell hole. [00:40:38] Abhinandan: It's just- And its usage is also coming down dramatically.[00:40:39] Manisha Pande: Yeah, and it's... This is s- so chaotic. Mm. I think Instagram, in that sense, has just been, you know, way more, uh... It's way more neat in that sense. Sanitized. So, so you... Yeah. And, and we've been seeing this, not anti-government, but like a rejection of, uh, what the government claims India has become for a very long time, and now it's exploded with Cockroach Janata Party.[00:41:02] Manisha Pande: So I think they're completely blindsided by it. They have no clue why this is happening. And every little effort that they're doing on Instagram backfires because the moment Modi put out that 12 o'clock reel, it was instant meme fodder. People started responding to it But I think, uh, what the BJP has not looked at, or maybe they can take some, which is actually bad idea to give them, but-[00:41:24] Manisha Pande: there is a lot of hate content on Instagram that goes unchecked and that- Mm ... goes viral. Yeah, yeah. Against Muslims. [00:41:31] Shardool: Mm. [00:41:31] Manisha Pande: All those videos that we see of, uh, the kind of abuses. You know this guy who used to sit in his car and keep, like, rattling off- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... to the camera. Oh, [00:41:39] Shardool: yeah, the, the bearded one.[00:41:41] Manisha Pande: Lot of misogyny, lot of unchecked hate against Muslims. This Gau Raksha [00:41:46] Shardool: Dal. Mm. [00:41:47] Manisha Pande: They're called Mrityu Dal, yeah, death squads. They, they pronounce themselves as death squads on Instagram. Yeah. They show these videos. This guy who had, we had done a documentary on, Monu Manesar. Mm. These are all Instagram phenomenon.[00:41:59] Manisha Pande: So, uh, I mean, if they want to understand what's working, there's also an arm of their own- [00:42:04] Abhinandan: Yes ... [00:42:04] Manisha Pande: you know, people who are- Extension ... really good at it ... extension [00:42:06] Abhinandan: of, yeah, their ideology that- So ... that, that works. But they don't take action against them. [00:42:11] Manisha Pande: Yeah. But on the algorithm things, I was just, this is something to debate, but I don't think Meta really has a control on algorithms in that sense, or at least it's not transparent enough.[00:42:20] Manisha Pande: They, they, they've designed the rules through which something goes [00:42:24] Abhinandan: viral. Mm. [00:42:24] Manisha Pande: But ultimately, what's going viral is actually people have a lot of control over that. [00:42:28] Abhinandan: Absolutely. But- [00:42:29] Manisha Pande: It's not that something is being imposed on us from outside, which is what the BJP is thinking. [00:42:34] Abhinandan: But we don't know that also, right?[00:42:35] Abhinandan: I mean, I, uh, I, I don't know what... Yeah ... because I know there was a piece that was a while ago, and that was the logic that had been settled, that anger is the biggest driver of content. [00:42:46] Song: Mm. [00:42:47] Abhinandan: If something can trigger you into anger and rage, it will get shared. The virality was directly proportional to how angry it makes you.[00:42:54] Yogi video : Oh. [00:42:55] Abhinandan: So this was the Facebook logic, which is why the more, you know, hateful content, the, you know- Right ... the more you... So, so the incentive structure was completely warped. Now, whether that is still the case, I, I don't know, and they are so opaque about it. But on a related issue, laws pandering to religion or accommodating religion, like one of what we just said, that the cowards vandalism is- Mm[00:43:24] Abhinandan: being suppressed. [00:43:26] Song: Mm. Oh. [00:43:26] Abhinandan: Now, for what reason? Is it because they don't want violence? But there's enough violent videos out there which still continue unchecked, and in light of the court saying that, the high court, B- uh, Bengal High Court, right? That- Yes ... the heavens will not fall if- Heavens will not fall[00:43:41] Abhinandan: governor, if Mamta- All stands as- ... Singh Vande Mataram. Now, this whole thing that- You know, heavens won't fall. I mean, heavens won't fall if there is criticism of judges also. But that, that's [00:43:53] Manisha Pande: not- If, if a book simply says that there's corruption in judiciary- Yeah ... heavens did fall- Yeah. ... for all the lords.[00:43:59] Abhinandan: Heavens f- like, heavens won't fall for a lot of reasons. But that is not what is the measure of law. Yes. It's not whether heavens fall or not, it is, is it my right to sing something or not to sing something? Similarly, because this may outrage a certain community whose, you know, government is pandering to that, you know, b- base, they do not want that video to go viral because it shows the cowardice in a bad light, especially when Yogi has said that if you want to learn Anushasan, learn it from the Hindu.[00:44:29] Yogi video : सड़क चलने के लिए होती है और जो लोग ये बोल रहे हैं ना उनको हिंदुओं से अनुशासन सीखना चाहिए। [00:44:38] Abhinandan: I mean I don't know which coverage [00:44:39] Manisha Pande: you saw. [00:44:39] Abhinandan: Also in [00:44:39] Manisha Pande: some videos they are really beating the cops up. The one in Meerut. Yeah, [00:44:41] Abhinandan: yeah. [00:44:41] Manisha Pande: Meerut [00:44:42] Yogi video : of [00:44:42] Abhinandan: course. And that cop is, you know, signaling for backup and they're just smashing the hell out of[00:44:53] Clip video : और नाले में पानी[00:45:03] Abhinandan: So it's out of control. Now, this is not technically your area of expertise, Abhishek, but I know you're a intelligent, articulate man with views. I know, I don't know if it's still the rule, that in America you cannot eat horse meat or sell horse meat, uh, because it comes from the cowboys. You know, the horse was your buddy.[00:45:24] Abhinandan: Buddy. So horses were not allowed to be consumed as meat. I'll just check- [00:45:28] Shardool: So people are idiots [00:45:28] Abhinandan: everywhere ... it's, I mean, I'll just check 'cause there it's federal structure. I'm sure there's still states where they prohibit horses from being eaten. Uh, that, you know, so there are societies across the world where religion informs law.[00:45:42] Shardool: Yes. [00:45:43] Abhinandan: To what extent is it pandering? To what extent is it keeping in line with stuff? In a hyper-connected world- Because here technology is actually what is the biggest challenge, right? When every country was in isolation, you could keep your law. You had no one[00:46:12] Abhinandan: to say, "They go ‑‑" [00:46:13] Shardool: Of course, yeah. [00:46:14] Abhinandan: Now they say we want to. So to what extent do you think it is inevitable that religion will inform law? And- Uh- ... where does it go to pandering? [00:46:23] Abhishek: So, uh, there, there are two parts to it, uh, religion informing law and also how these platforms behave, uh, will, will always be a thing in a, a deeply religious country like us.[00:46:36] Abhishek: Uh, we've, we've been trying to fight our secular credentials as well, uh, inserting religion into, uh, administrative, uh, shenanigans all the time. So, uh, we, we are already seeing that. But, but the part about, uh, how this is not a, a botheration to this government. And, uh, i- in the meeting, and Manisha was mentioning, uh, the dark side of, uh, Instagram, uh, uh, at least the dark side for her.[00:47:04] Abhishek: Mm. But none of these things were discussed in, uh, the meetings, uh, with the Meta officials. Mm. Um, no doxing of women which happened, uh, after the protest- Yeah ... and generally also. Yeah. This was not discussed. Uh, the, the anti-Muslim propaganda done in an organized manner, uh, was, was not discussed. But everything else, uh, which i- which majorly included take, taking down Narendra Modi's video, was called an attempt to destabilize India.[00:47:32] Abhishek: So, uh, the, the government is happily, uh, taking everything along as long as, uh, its incentives are met. Uh, you mentioned how this is a new area for, for the government. Uh, Instagram, uh, is, is something, uh, they were, uh, blindsided by. Uh, but what we've seen, this, uh, this was the exact playbook we had, uh, during the farmers protests when multiple takedown requests, uh, were sent for Twitter, because that, that is the time when Twitter was, uh, uh, being watched out.[00:48:06] Abhishek: There was Rihanna's tweet, of course, uh, and then a celebrity line-up was, uh, lined up to, uh, post in solidarity with farmers and, uh, that this is an internal matter. That, that was the, the playbook designed for Twitter at that time. Uh, multiple independent journalists, small outlet- uh, especially from small outlets or independent journalists who were at the, uh, protest sites at the Delhi, uh, Sonipat border, uh, their posts were frequently being taken down.[00:48:34] Abhishek: And, uh, and Twitter acknowledged that and in fact, um, was counting that in Karnataka, uh, High Court, uh, before their acquisition happened But, uh, they were blindsided by Instagram and the virality of things and the content- Mm ... of things that was happening on Instagram. I have, uh, uh, I, I mean, I'm very sure this playbook will be repeated with Instagram also.[00:48:58] Abhishek: It's not hard to, uh, identify, uh, a certain section of people. It is not hard to identify what is going viral. I mean, uh, Modi's reels would not really take care of it, but this playbook would, will. IT rules and, uh, the takedowns that, that we send will easily take care of that. [00:49:19] Abhinandan: Manisha, so just to be clear The following states have strictly banned horse meat.[00:49:26] Abhinandan: Hmm. Texas, California, Illinois, Florida, New Jersey, and New York. [00:49:29] Manisha Pande: So cowboy- Florida? Yeah. With the cowboy tradition. The [00:49:32] Abhinandan: whole cowboy tradition, that's your brother. Buddy. It's your friend, yeah. He's your [00:49:36] Manisha Pande: friend. It's like eating your dog- [00:49:37] Abhinandan: But in all across- ... it will be, or a cat ... the US, you cannot effectively get it, not just in these states.[00:49:42] Abhinandan: Because to sell meat, it has to be inspected by, uh, you know, under federal law, it has to be inspected by whichever is the agency that says, "Okay, this meat is safe for consumption." That requires federal funds. The inspectors will go inspect the meat. Yeah, [00:49:56] Shardool: yeah, yeah. [00:49:57] Abhinandan: No federal funds are given for inspection of horse meat.[00:50:00] Abhinandan: Horse肉. Yeah. [00:50:00] Shardool: So therefore- But is [00:50:00] Manisha Pande: horse meat even a thing? Like, who wants to eat horse meat? [00:50:03] Abhinandan: Oh, yeah, in Germany, uh- Yeah ... I mean, one of my favorite snacks is this particular kind of jerky. [00:50:07] Shardool: Yes. [00:50:07] Abhinandan: Which is a- Horse? Awesome. It's healthy. It's a, it's a mix of, uh, horse meat, and, uh, you know, pork, and buffalo, and, uh, uh, beef, whatever.[00:50:17] Abhinandan: You know, it's a... So it's this, it's a really delicious jerky that you get. A- and it depends, it could be horse, it could be, uh, beef, it could be pork. So it is a thing. Now, I don't know whether while coming to office they've started cordoning off half the road for the kaavads here as well. [00:50:33] Song: Mm. Oh. [00:50:34] Abhinandan: And every year I see there's some mayhem here.[00:50:36] Abhinandan: I mean, I, I don't know, with the kind of rain, maybe we should... I mean, the peak will be in another week. I, I, I don't get it. Like, while you can, 'cause kaavads are new for those of us who are from Dehradun. Yes. 'Cause when we used to come to Delhi, they were there, but it, it was not this weaponized kind of we will come and- Takeover[00:50:54] Abhinandan: take over of. Although, that was the case in Bombay. There used to be a lot of violence on the streets, and th- there was no social media. [00:51:01] Manisha Pande: Ganesh Chaturthi. During Ganesh [00:51:01] Abhinandan: Chaturthi. That was the time where the, you know, the pr- proletariat would rise- Yes ... and say, "We, the streets belong to us." So I think it's an interesting, you know, sociological study of inequality being balanced in these, in this month.[00:51:17] Abhinandan: In these festivals. That you think you'll push us around all year, we'll push you around for this amount of time. [00:51:22] Song: Yeah. [00:51:23] Abhinandan: So, I mean, that is another way of looking at it. [00:51:26] Manisha Pande: Except I think now, even like, uh, regular people are getting a little fed up. Because in Lucknow, for example, that school bus was stoned- Yeah[00:51:35] Manisha Pande: with little kids inside. Kids were there. So I think that whole class angle now is difficult for people to digest, because it's not just the elite who are being inconvenienced- Mm ... because of a traffic jam, or because they can't take their cars out. But regular folks are having to suffer. You know, whether it's restaurants, you routinely they'll come and make a ruckus, "Who's serving me?[00:51:53] Manisha Pande: Is he Muslim, is he not?" Somebody touched you- Yes ... then go. [00:51:56] Shardool: Even eggs. [00:51:57] Manisha Pande: Yeah. Uh, school children, you know, uh, and those kids were very traumatized, yeah [00:52:03] Shardool: Yes, of [00:52:03] Manisha Pande: course The, the whole van was the, the... It was like all the sheeshas were broken and they were just standing there. So I think regular folks are also a little irritated now.[00:52:12] Manisha Pande: The fact... But I, I, I, I do find this whole thing quite fascinating, and I had said this long time ago, you know, when we were discussing this Love Charjar Baba. [00:52:22] Song: Hmm. [00:52:22] Manisha Pande: Why do so many people go there for these concerts? And the fact is that India, there are very few public spaces where people can let go. Like, not everyone can afford a Burning Man festival or what is that?[00:52:34] Manisha Pande: Mm Alcee Sur Mm Mejaan. What is the festival in Escobar, is it? It's called, uh, [00:52:36] Abhinandan: Magnetic [00:52:37] Manisha Pande: Fields ... Magnetic Fields where- Coachella ... you can do your trance and, you know- Yeah, yeah ... your drugs or whatever. So this is in some way the poor person's Burning Man or- Sure, [00:52:45] Abhinandan: exactly ... [00:52:46] Manisha Pande: uh, you know- Mm ... Magnetic Fields and you come out, you have a blast, you can claim the streets.[00:52:52] Manisha Pande: There's a sort of, uh... You, you are policed so much in India in terms of how you can behave in public for regular folks. They tell you, let your hair down How do you sit in a... You can't even sit in a garden with your lover, hold hands. Mm-hmm. There'll be somebody with a CT coming after you. So I think this is one way in which people kind of just express themselves, but it's a bit of a nuisance now- [00:53:10] Shardool: So I'll te- I'll te- I'll give you an interesting anecdote[00:53:11] Shardool: for anyone [00:53:12] Manisha Pande: else. [00:53:12] Shardool: Because I remember what you're talking about, and I ju- I just realized that something has changed, and what has changed, one of the factor is this: when I was going to shakha as a kid, as a young kid, so I, I went in a lab last week, we talked about. Mm. Kawadiyas were looked at as gundas, the we are not supposed to mix with them, we are disciplined.[00:53:33] Shardool: Never it did ha-happen, like, uh, we literally used to look at people from BJP, Bajrang Dal, and Kawadiyas with disdain. Woh anushasit log nahi hai. [00:53:41] Song: Hmm. [00:53:42] Shardool: But I remember since this government had come, pracharaks go on Kanwar with their thing. So it has become a bit organized and institutional. It [00:53:50] Abhinandan: has state patronage.[00:53:51] Abhinandan: I know that funds are given to specific Kanwar yatras, et cetera. State funds are given. Yeah. [00:53:55] Shardool: So- [00:53:55] Manisha Pande: But this disdain also has to do with caste. A lot of Dalit OBC participation in Kanwars. [00:54:01] Abhinandan: Yeah, that has a caste [00:54:01] Manisha Pande: angle. So there is this Brahmin snootiness to it that these guys don't really know religion, they are not really following.[00:54:08] Manisha Pande: So there is that angle to it also, I feel. No, I'm [00:54:09] Shardool: giving you the shakha perspective. Mm. It was not about Kanwar, it was the- [00:54:12] Manisha Pande: Which is Brahmin only? Mm. Shakhas are- No. Hmm. Like mostly. Like I was going to Sher Gali shakha in Meerut. Sher Gali we [00:54:14] Shardool: know. Hmm. Hmm. That's not the... I started the shakha there. Hmm. Like we[00:54:22] Shardool: have names with- [00:54:22] Manisha Pande: But [00:54:23] Shardool: there is a [00:54:23] Manisha Pande: definite caste angle to [00:54:24] Shardool: it. No, of course. N- I'm saying one of the factors- In fact, [00:54:26] Abhinandan: that's true for everything in India . [00:54:27] Shardool: Yes, well, like that's the, this... Everything. But the point is that senior pracharak, vibhag pracharak, sah-prant pracharak, which are like semi-state level- Mm[00:54:36] Shardool: they are not going actively photo and with their, with their shakhas organized. [00:54:40] Nishikant dubey video : Hmm. [00:54:41] Shardool: So this has also increased. And other thing what you said is about algorithm. Like algorithm is just like any other tool. Hmm. They are designed to get you addicted to the thing you like to watch. They wanna track what you watch most, and they wanna give you more.[00:54:56] Shardool: That's what algorithm is. Mm. BJP will try to exploit it like anybody else. They are just woken up to it because they are like, they are archaic. [00:55:04] Song: Mm. [00:55:05] Shardool: They're running muskets in the time of, you know, supersonic missiles. But the point is that no matter what happens, unless we are serious about addressing what these companies are doing, because they are doing it for profit, and, uh, I am afraid they, it'll become incestuous between government- Yeah[00:55:21] Shardool: after a point. Inevitably. Yeah, [00:55:21] Abhinandan: inevitably. [00:55:22] Shardool: Yeah. Which is a separate problem altogether. [00:55:25] Abhinandan: Which is, which, which is already happening, energy and governments- Yeah. Yeah ... you know, whether it's oil, telecom. Last word on this to you, Abhishek, from the point of view of laws pandering to or accommodating religion.[00:55:37] Abhishek: So, uh, one additional point, uh, when you mentioned that the governments will always try to, uh, exploit the, uh, pro- or exploit the algorithms. That is what, uh, BJP or any other, uh- Yeah ... party, uh, in government would do, uh, and was doing earlier. This is, we are talking about seven, eight years ago, this is how BJP came into power.[00:55:56] Abhishek: Everybody appreciated that their social game, uh, social media game was, uh, pretty... Rahul Gandhi famously got onto Twitter very late, and Narendra Modi was already a star there. Yeah. Yeah. So, however, uh, at this moment, they're not just exploiting the algorithm. Uh, they, they are, uh, abusing the, the platforms by takedowns and by using state machinery, uh, to counter any, um, anti-government voices or opposition voices or the, in, in, uh, protests like these, uh, citiz- citizenry, uh, criticism.[00:56:29] Abhishek: So, uh, algo- everybody's trying to modify the algorithms and l- like, like brands would also. Mm. But in this case because of the state power and because of, uh, the, uh, flex that the parliamentary standing committee can, uh, uh, get in, uh, they, they are, uh- Taking down, uh, a- any, uh, anti-government, uh, criticism and also, uh, dwindling the criticism.[00:56:54] Abhishek: It- it's, it's the same thing which, uh, Manisha would say every week in News Sense, that if you are only listening to mainstream, uh, television in the evening, that is how you are, uh- Entertained ... that is what your worldview is. Yeah. This is what your understanding of. So, uh, this is what the government has been doing it on Twitter, on WhatsApp, uh, they've, which they've championed.[00:57:14] Abhishek: But, and li- like I said, they have a playbook and, uh, I, I don't see any problem replicating that for Instagram as well. They were just blindsided because it just came out of nowhere. Uh, and, uh, we, we have, uh, these Meta officials in, uh, India for three more days. Uh, so there will be a lot of conversations around it and how they, they can suit it to, uh, their interests.[00:57:36] Abhishek: Governments have a leverage. Every big tech company has to make data centers, have to- Yeah ... uh, run government projects. So, uh, the, the governments always will have leverage over, uh, these platforms, and they have to stay in business. About, I mean, I, I do know, uh, uh, with the cover angle also, uh, because we were talking, uh, religion, uh, onto law.[00:57:58] Abhishek: Uh, this, this whole, uh, thing, uh, is also viewed from a social media lens, uh, which I was not very comfortable till about a few weeks ago when I realized the entire party got down a, a resignation of a union minister. Right. So I would dismiss mostly things as this is only happening on social media, not in real life.[00:58:19] Abhishek: Mm. Like, probably the a- that is the age I am. [00:58:22] Song: Mm. [00:58:22] Abhishek: Uh, but, uh, we, we, we see, uh, uh, a lot of things differently now. So, uh, uh, religious activity, what happens, uh, and this is the same point that, uh, Manisha was making, uh, uh, a little earlier into the discussion, that, uh, speaking out or criticizing government or criticizing just the administrative inefficiency is very popular on Instagram, and that is the same thing for religion as well.[00:58:47] Abhishek: Uh, while there's absolutely dark side of anti-Muslim content and a lot of, uh, uh, Hindutva, uh, propaganda, but there's also a lot of content around mocking, uh, religious rituals i- in very casual sense- Mm ... of family, a young person making a video about mocking something, which is, which might be a trigger point if I do that joke on, on Twitter.[00:59:11] Josy Interview: Mm. [00:59:11] Abhishek: But it passes by because that is, uh, uh, it, it's more fun place, uh, and, um, younger place, uh, which, which can take those jokes. So, uh, that, that bit is also, uh, should be uncomfortable for, for the BJP. Uh, but that is how, uh, it, it is happening, uh, on In- Instagram. I [00:59:30] Manisha Pande: have a, I have a theory on why anti-government stuff became, started gaining traction on Instagram.[00:59:36] Song: Mm. [00:59:37] Manisha Pande: I think it started with travel logging So first, Instagram was basically about- Yes ... food and travel. [00:59:42] Song: Mm. [00:59:42] Manisha Pande: Most influencers would travel India, and then after you're done, you had people traveling in Vietnam, Thailand, Southeast Asia. And slowly we started people ... seeing people complain about the roads here are so good.[00:59:54] Manisha Pande: They have pavements. They have in- You know, about a year ago, and Anurag Minus Verma has written a very good piece on this. [01:00:00] Song: Yes. [01:00:01] Manisha Pande: As more and more Indians started traveling, not Europe, Asia. Mm. They realized that, "Dude, we are being scammed. Where are our pavements? Where are our footpaths? Where are our bridge?"[01:00:10] Abhinandan: Civic sense. [01:00:11] Manisha Pande: Civic s- And I think that's how it started, and then you would see a lot of stuff from travel influencers talking about, you know, "We're in Vietnam having fun, and now we're back in Gurgaon, and this is dumb." You know, so ... And, and then slowly, slowly I think people started talking about roads and whatever.[01:00:28] Manisha Pande: And then it really snowballed. [01:00:29] Abhinandan: And I also s- saw some of these, you know, satire thing.[01:00:40] Manisha Pande: Indians traveling abroad, I think, led to a great sense of ... Because Europe, America, everyone knows, okay, they're better, first world. When people started traveling- [01:00:47] Abhinandan: In our neighborhood ... [01:00:48] Manisha Pande: they were like, "Dude, where have you been?" Even come Sri Lanka and Bhutan. Yeah. Sri Lanka, [01:00:50] Shardool: Bhutan, [01:00:52] Manisha Pande: Nepal. [01:00:53] Shardool: Bhutan, if you cross the border and [01:00:53] Manisha Pande: it suddenly[01:00:54] Manisha Pande: In fact, this influencer had done this thing right at the border. Nomadic Indian. That this is the Indian side, this is the Bhutanese side. I know the guy. Nomadic Indian, yes. And see the difference. [01:01:01] Shardool: Mm. [01:01:01] Manisha Pande: So I think the travel influencers started this revolution. [01:01:05] Abhishek: And- [01:01:06] Manisha Pande: Unknowingly [01:01:06] Abhishek: Also, some of this was a- after the, uh, uh, government, uh, coup, uh, in Sri Lanka, and the country was in crisis.[01:01:12] Abhishek: Yeah. And the coup happened because of economic crisis. And then there were these travelers who said, "But road "... So e- even with an economic crisis, they, they can manage clean beaches and good roads. Uh- And, uh, that, that has been, [01:01:25] Shardool: uh, the thing. Yes. And, and, like, now people have started ... Not now, for a couple of years, but they have st- started being noticed by mass- [01:01:31] Song: Mm[01:01:32] Shardool: Indians, China. And they realize Europe and US are far behind. [01:01:36] Manisha Pande: Right. When China started the flights, so many influencers have landed there- Yeah ... saying that, "Dude, we ... Where? These guys are, like, 10 years ahead of us." I'll [01:01:42] Shardool: tell you, like, one of my anecdotes, one of my ... The, the guy is very orthodox Panghian. [01:01:48] Song: Mm. [01:01:49] Shardool: So he landed at Hong Kong, and he went to the market, and he went to the bug market.[01:01:53] Shardool: He fainted. Mm. Because they were supposed to be sold for eating and cooking. But the sheer cleanliness and order and ease of sort of citizen's ease- [01:02:05] Abhinandan: Mm ... [01:02:05] Shardool: in access. You just had to have WeChat, like Abhishek mentioned. Yeah. [01:02:09] Abhinandan: I mean, that just shows how Less traveled people in many parts of India are- Yeah[01:02:16] Abhinandan: because in 2009 or '10, I had done the entire Northeast segment of the show I used to shoot. Yeah. And there was a market there where- ... you know, you could buy bee larvae, caterpillars live, and that market was cleaner than your market in Delhi- Exactly ... which are selling pure veg, sattvic vegetables, which is-[01:02:36] Abhinandan: smelling foul. And that market was really clean. I remember we featured in Nagaland, we featured, you know, parts of Manipur. You know, Rocky even tried that stuff, which just the smell was- And then there were marketing- And then we, we shot a sequence in the kitchen and they're cooking it, and some of the frogs got away, and then they were chasing the frogs to catch.[01:02:54] Abhinandan: I was like, "Dude, I can't believe I'm shooting this, and I can't believe I'm gonna eat this." [01:02:59] Manisha Pande: So in fact, Insta influencers, travel influencers of today, then zeroed into Aizwal. [01:03:04] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:03:04] Manisha Pande: Like, what a clean city and everything. No one's honking. [01:03:07] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:03:07] Manisha Pande: So yeah, Northeast. [01:03:09] Abhinandan: So before we wind up and say goodbye to Abhishek, your recommendations that could enrich the lives of our listeners for the week, Abhishek?[01:03:16] Abhishek: So there, there is this book. I, I'll just read the title because I have it on hand. Uh, it's, it's, uh, by an Indian origin, uh, person, uh, but he's in a US university. Uh, this is, uh, Dwaipayan Ghosh, and the book is about decolonizing, uh, Decolonizing Indian IT. [01:03:35] Song: Mm. [01:03:36] Abhishek: And, uh, I, I was a little skeptical because everything decolonizing these days is, is, uh, a little iffy, uh, topic to touch on.[01:03:44] Abhishek: But this book is about journey of Indian IT and how we ended up in IT services and not really innovation. Mm. And, uh, he's very critical of Make in India, about how tho- tho- those are promises and a huge marketing campaign, but, uh, with no results. That, that's a pretty good book. I, I've not read it fully, I, I, I must admit.[01:04:05] Abhishek: I, I- But [01:04:06] Abhinandan: it is showing promise. [01:04:07] Abhishek: Yeah, yeah, I'm 60% on it. In fact, I, uh, wrote to the author also. He's a professor in a US uni- university, and, uh, I, I took some additional, uh, reading, uh, list from, uh, him. And, uh, this, then this, uh, another book, uh, uh, this is, uh, Joanna Stern, who's a Wall Street Journal, uh, journalist.[01:04:26] Abhishek: Uh, I have followed her work for quite a while. Uh, she's written a book, I Am Not a[01:04:31] Abhishek: Robot- And, uh, Joanna's column in Wa- Wall Street Journal, she quit, I, I think a couple of, uh, months ago and started an independent media business. She writes a newsletter, does a podcast and things like that. Uh, her column was always about trying new things, uh, and the last year has been about AI. What now she's come up with this book is, for one year she did everything with AI, uh, including having a AI boyfriend, as, as she calls it, uh, which is a robotic, uh, humanoid which she had in room.[01:05:01] Abhishek: So everything is very personal and experienced, unlike us tech reviewers who take a device, then review it, and then send it back. Uh, so it's a pretty good book on how much AI can get into your life. Uh, also, the shortcomings of it and how, uh, uh, much are risks and, uh, worries around it. Uh, it's a very fun book, uh, because she's a column writer, uh, so she gets that pulse.[01:05:24] Abhishek: Uh, th- that book, uh, I, I, I just read in, uh, two days because it's so fun and I, I'm a fan of her work anyway. So that's Joanna Stern's I'm Not a Robot. Uh, both of my books are, uh, with tech in mind. [01:05:37] Abhinandan: Thank you so much, Abhishek. Have a good weekend, and thank you for your time. [01:05:40] Abhishek: Thank you. Thanks for having me.[01:05:42] Abhinandan: All right. [01:05:43] Manisha Pande: Thank you. [01:05:44] Shardool: Bye-bye. [01:05:44] Abhinandan: Now for the emails. We only read emails of our subscribers. So if you're a subscriber, you can mail us at podcasts- Yeah ... @newslaundry.com. I repeat, podcasts@newslaundry.com, or you can click on the link in the show notes below and the window will open up. Our only request, please keep your emails below 150 words so we can include as many as possible.[01:06:07] Abhinandan: So yes, give us your feedback, your criticism, your suggestions, and that's how we get better. Yes, Manisha, please- Start ... do the honors. Who has curated the emails this week? Shardul. [01:06:16] Manisha Pande: Shardul. Me. Rohan says, "I think that India is going through a mental health crisis, and we need to come up with a uniquely Indian way of therapy.[01:06:23] Manisha Pande: Many therapists are too similar in their approach and do not try customized CBT methods. We need an Indian Carl Jung." [01:06:31] Shardool: Mm. [01:06:31] Abhinandan: Mm. Okay. [01:06:32] Shardool: We need a- I agree with the first, but not with the second. This unique way of finding is people need to just sensitize themselves and be, be humble about other people's experience.[01:06:43] Shardool: Mm. That's all you need in therapy. [01:06:45] Manisha Pande: And also- But you also- ... you may as well go with tried and tested, researched [01:06:48] Abhinandan: methods. But you have to... Yeah. You have, but you have to have some expertise. I mean- Oh, [01:06:51] Shardool: it has to be rooted in neuroscience, yes. [01:06:53] Abhinandan: Because, you know, even the uncles who say, "Yeah, your depression, ˈbas varjish karo," they are also being sympathetic.[01:06:59] Abhinandan: Yeah. Apni taraf se, they're not being unsympathetic. Yeah. So sympathy- Go bhad [01:07:02] Shardool: lo ... [01:07:03] Abhinandan: sympathy itself is not enough. [01:07:04] Shardool: Medication lo. Yes. [01:07:05] Abhinandan: It has to be a little more than sympathy. It has [01:07:06] Shardool: to be rooted in medical science. Yeah. [01:07:10] Manisha Pande: Deepta Vivek Kannan says, "Really enjoyed this week's discussion, especially the distinction between the language of this movement and the movement itself.[01:07:18] Manisha Pande: The memes, reels, Internet humor were unmistakably Gen Z, and your analysis of that was spot on. But I'm increasingly tired of every political moment being reduced to generational labels. I'm a Xennial, by the way." What is a Xennial? Apparently that's a thing. Gen X. Gen X-er. [01:07:33] Abhinandan: That's me. [01:07:33] Manisha Pande: Yeah. [01:07:34] Abhinandan: Yes. [01:07:34] Manisha Pande: Xennial bolenge [01:07:37] Shardool: ya Zennial?[01:07:37] Manisha Pande: Kya hoga? Xennial? Zennial. Hmm. Calling this a Gen Z protest captures how the movement spoke, but not what it was. Democratic movements are cumulative. They inherit ideas, slogans, songs, strategies, warnings, and public memory from those that came before. Absolutely, I completely agree. Yep. This movement stood on the shoulders of the freedom struggle, anti-caste movement, student movements, anti-CAA, Jan Lokpal protest, farmers protest, and countless quieter acts of democratic resistance.[01:08:03] Manisha Pande: Gen Z gave this movement a brilliant new vocabulary, but the movement itself belongs to a much longer democratic tradition should we flatten history into a headline. What a lovely letter. [01:08:13] Abhinandan: Yeah. [01:08:13] Manisha Pande: Such good op-ed type letters we get. And the- This is better than most op-eds I've read. [01:08:18] Abhinandan: And Deepta, to completely ruin your letter and twist it into you know, my own agenda, not mine strictly speaking, but- [01:08:28] Manisha Pande: We are the best, I must say[01:08:29] Abhinandan: Gen X is often accused, I think correctly so, of being the most pompous generation. That we are the toughest because we are the [01:08:38] Shardool: toughest [01:08:38] Abhinandan: generation, you know? Most mollycoddled generation. It is. I don't like generalizations. Gen X [01:08:40] Manisha Pande: are the most mollycoddled. What toughness, yaar? I don't actually- You grew in h- milk and honey India.[01:08:43] Abhinandan: Everything was beautiful. That is true. We had, but, but I mean, you- Taking shit was, you know, part of the process. Mm. But, uh, so I was talking to a friend of mine. In fact, I think I mentioned it that day that, you know those people who'd come from Bombay, friends of mine who'd flown down 'cause their kids said, "You will not..."[01:09:00] Abhinandan: So they were talking about other friends of theirs who said, "Yeah, yeah. Go. Go for the protest. Here, take some money, take some food," etc. They said, "Aray, they went because us. When we used to go protest, our parents used, 'Nehi jana. Dekho kahan ja raha hai.' They would stop us." [01:09:14] Manisha Pande: Acha. [01:09:14] Abhinandan: We tell our kids to go. So they were taking the credit- Of course[01:09:17] Abhinandan: even with that. As a Gen X, we'll just grab the credit wherever. So although that is true, many of the, you know, people I know- [01:09:23] Song: Mm ... [01:09:24] Abhinandan: they actively told their kids to go for the protest. [01:09:27] Song: Oh. [01:09:27] Abhinandan: They said, "Because now I don't wanna go, you go." [01:09:29] Manisha Pande: In fact- [01:09:29] Abhinandan: I can't imagine my parents, I mean, if they got to know I was sitting at a protest, they'd, like, probably-[01:09:35] Abhinandan: you know, come there and drag me back. I think that is a big difference as well. [01:09:39] Manisha Pande: In fact, one very sweet girl said also that, "Maine mummy ko bola ki police maregi toh." Hmm. "Toh mummy ne kaha, 'Khaliyo dande. Kya [01:09:46] Abhinandan: ho gaya [01:09:47] Shardool: dande se?'" Of [01:09:47] Manisha Pande: course. So yeah, parents also played their, this role of sending their children.[01:09:51] Manisha Pande: Anonymous says, "Couldn't help but laugh at the centrist change the world remark by Chetan Bhagat because such stuff isn't even historically true. Keeping that aside, I found it very interesting in the American independent media that they make it a point to first specify their political leanings prior to their segment so that their biases when talking about a certain topic are already on the table.[01:10:09] Manisha Pande: Mehdi Hasan, for instance, does point out that he's a left-leaning progressive before giving his take. This made me curious for all members in the panel, what's your political leaning ideology?" [01:10:21] Abhinandan: I mean, so, I mean, personally for me, I don't think it's that simple anymore. I mean, I do call myself a liberal progressive, whatever, but that also keeps changing, right?[01:10:32] Abhinandan: Yes. The bar keeps changing, so the whole idea of this is through this you tell us what we are, you know? Everyone has a different [01:10:38] Manisha Pande: take. Yeah. Maybe you can tell us. [01:10:40] Abhinandan: Mm. I- [01:10:40] Manisha Pande: I swing between anarchy and conservatism. [01:10:45] Abhinandan: Anarchy and con- my God. [01:10:46] Manisha Pande: So one day I'm like, "Bring it all down." Then I'm like, "No, no, no. State, state is important.[01:10:50] Manisha Pande: State will guide." So Manilla is the, [01:10:51] Abhinandan: like, she has the biggest auditorium. It's not even a big tent. She has, like, the full auditorium- Very true ... ki bhai- Sab [01:10:56] Shardool: aa jao ... there's [01:10:57] Abhinandan: space for everybody. [01:10:58] Shardool: Yeah. I was asked this question last month, in fact, in a party. And I was like, "I am progressive, but I still don't agree with many points of them."[01:11:06] Shardool: Mm-hmm. So some liberal. But one thing I will say, I, like, whatever ideology that be, I am pro-therapy. Everybody needs it. [01:11:15] Abhinandan: Yes. [01:11:16] Manisha Pande: Next email is from Kumud. Dear team, dear team, thank you, thank you to you and other independent journalists- Mm ... who covered the students' protest and police brutalities. I'm a pessimistic uncle when the hopes are high.[01:11:30] Manisha Pande: Modi may have lost some grip on the people, but his grip on power is intact. The ensuing crackdown is a signal that dictators have no care for democracy. On the incidents of violence against the media, is the media separate from the government? The protests were largely peaceful from students' side, but definitely not Gandhian.[01:11:45] Manisha Pande: Modi media has so far reaped in benefits, time it realizes what it has lost. I would also request the NL team to assess Rahul Gandhi since 2014, not as an orator or politician, but his stance against BJP and its ecosystem. [01:11:58] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:11:59] Manisha Pande: No, he's been very consistent and pos- possibly the only one who takes on RSS also.[01:12:02] Abhinandan: Yeah. [01:12:03] Manisha Pande: Very clearly. [01:12:04] Abhinandan: Yep. [01:12:05] Manisha Pande: Anam says, this is regarding Abhinandan's frequent clarification on Bill Maher. The problem with Bill Maher, who as Abhinandan mildly puts it, borders on bigotry, is that you're saying a person is worth listening to despite him believing that one group has the right to torture, abuse, steal, kill another group of people.[01:12:21] Manisha Pande: I wonder what Abhinandan would think if Maher had said the British have a right to claim India as their land and live in it. And so many people wouldn't have died during partition if Indians had let the British continue colonizing their land. It does not matter if Maher has had legitimate sounding views in the past.[01:12:38] Manisha Pande: The fact that he espouses to Israel's massacres and genocides should be enough for what, for anyone to realize that the guy's a pathetic example of what human beings can become with time. Hitler, Pol Pot, Churchill must have had some noteworthy views, too. You can personally choose to read about their views, but why would you try to defend them as worthy of attention?[01:12:59] Abhinandan: So on this, I'd like to know what the panel has to say, but Anam, I, I'd say you... Now this is the problem, if you put Hitler, Pol Pot in the same category as Maher, that's when for me, many progressive and what I describe woke arguments collapse. Hitler and Pol Pot are... That is their defining thing Marr's views on the current conflict in Gaza are not his defining thing.[01:13:27] Abhinandan: So there's a big difference. And Churchill could be put in the same category as Hitler. I'm not sure many people, you know, legitimate, well-meaning politicians in India quote Churchill. Are you saying, you know, Nolan is a bigot for making Dunkirk? You know, which is all about Churchill's we will fight from the shores, whatever.[01:13:48] Shardool: Yes. [01:13:49] Abhinandan: So it's too simplistic, and I'll give you another example. So when do you suppose, till this conflict happened, Marr did not have such a, at least in his, you know, utterances, such a very well-articulated or firm or dogmatic view on Israel. After the October bombings is when he took this position. So then at that moment, do you switch?[01:14:15] Abhinandan: When do you say, "Okay, now nothing he says is of consequence to me"? For example, I don't think anything that Arun Shourie wrote, and he's such a clever man, about Ambedkar in the book Worshipping False Gods is historically inaccurate [01:14:30] Song: Hmm [01:14:31] Abhinandan: It is absolute... He has quoted verbatim [01:14:34] Shardool: Yeah, yeah, I remember [01:14:35] Abhinandan: And you must read that book.[01:14:37] Abhinandan: Does that mean Ambedkar should be defined by those utterances about what he said about the Brit- what he said the British should have stayed? Read that book. See what Ambedkar said about should British have stayed and continued to colonize India. A phase in his life, in his life he actually did endorse that.[01:14:52] Abhinandan: But the context was that, dude, for us Dalits it's all the same, right? So this is the kind of simplistic black and white kind of stuff that I reject, uh, which is why I think everything and everybody is worth a conversation, and then you can take a call on what you think about it. [01:15:10] Manisha Pande: Yeah, I wouldn't put Bill Maher in the same category as Hitler, Pol Pot and [01:15:14] Abhinandan: all.[01:15:14] Abhinandan: Or even Churchill in that same category. [01:15:16] Manisha Pande: Yeah. So [01:15:17] Shardool: I, I do have a insight on Bill Maher. May- maybe you would agree or not, but I do put Churchill with Hitler, personally. Mm. So Anam, this is the thing. It's an individual thing. You have to make up your own mind about stuff. Bill Maher I started noticing before October 10, he was initially pissed off about masks and insistence on vaccines.[01:15:35] Abhinandan: Yeah, yeah. That was his [01:15:36] Shardool: whole thing And that's where he started finding agreement in- With the right ... right-wing Republican. Yeah, [01:15:40] Abhinandan: I... [01:15:41] Shardool: And it has a slow progression. [01:15:42] Abhinandan: I- I've noticed that, too, and I, I think it also has to do with age. Yeah. Yeah. You just become angry, and you just become With that ... surly with the youngsters.[01:15:49] Abhinandan: With that You just become with- [01:15:50] Shardool: And he also, like- [01:15:50] Manisha Pande: Because all of us have human beings ... hates Gen Z. His whole thing on Gen Z is- [01:15:53] Abhinandan: Yeah That- He has, yeah That all sort of- I think his hatred for Gen Z is a little unreasonable ... [01:15:57] Shardool: that all came later. I, I started noticing that m- mere small shift when the insistence for mask and vaccines came up, and he, he got hard pushback from left and a bit of relatability from the [01:16:09] Abhinandan: right And also, like, and why I think he keeps things in perspective by and large is now while he was such a critic of Fauci, when all other progressives, liberals were saying, "Ha, bye," because it becomes so polarizing, right?[01:16:23] Abhinandan: If you are a Trumpian you will not wear a mask no matter what the risk. If you are Demo- you will wear a mask and you will endorse everything he says. He has defended Fauci on the way he's being treated by the Congress. [01:16:36] Shardool: So I don't [01:16:36] Abhinandan: watch him While being such a huge critic of him. He says he fucked up. He, he says, "But dude, you can't start reading his personal diary."[01:16:43] Abhinandan: That, that's just pathetic. That's just not fair. [01:16:45] Shardool: Yeah. And one, one last point I'll make is this binary thing you about, that is sort of an mirroring of American culture because in America I feel everything is binary. [01:16:54] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:16:54] Shardool: Either you th- this side or that side, and that sort of has, through internet and popular culture, reverberated everywhere.[01:16:59] Shardool: Like [01:17:00] Abhinandan: Ricky Gervais, some of the things he says are, oh my God. Yeah I'm like, dude, I can't believe he said that. But in the larger perspective, I think the guy is phenomenal. Yeah. He- Yeah ... will not be bullied by, you know, the woke crowds. He will not be bullied by the right-wing crowds. Yeah I, I, I respect that.[01:17:21] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. I may not agree with everything he says. [01:17:23] Manisha Pande: And you need people like that- [01:17:24] Abhinandan: Mm ... [01:17:25] Manisha Pande: to push conversations ahead. [01:17:26] Abhinandan: Yeah. [01:17:27] Manisha Pande: Sunny Nayak says, "Hi, guys. Interesting discussion on the student protests and backlash against Godi Media after Bhagat left. Shardul made more sense in his two minutes, 18 seconds than Chetan Bhagat did in his entire appearance, not to mention his bizarre statement like sentence changes the world, and I don't have an ideology.[01:17:45] Manisha Pande: I understand he's Abhinandan's friend, but there's a reason why we should have to suffer his nonsense." Hmm. "Please reconsider before platforming him again. Even Abhinandan said some rubbish about how propaganda doesn't work in this day and age." He- We are- We are in the third term of BJP and our second Trump presidency.[01:18:01] Manisha Pande: What the fuck are you talking about? I wanna take this opportunity to, to suggest a revolving host for Hafta. I love Manisha as the host. She comes well prepared, great questions, everyone gets to speak uninterrupted. [01:18:13] Abhinandan: Noted, Sunny. In fact- [01:18:14] Manisha Pande: Rejected last. Rejected. Last. [01:18:17] Abhinandan: Now- [01:18:17] Manisha Pande: But actually, that propaganda discussion was fascinating, and you didn't say it doesn't work.[01:18:21] Manisha Pande: Yeah. You were wondering if kids grow up on pa- propaganda and reject it- Reject it ... what does it really mean? So. [01:18:26] Abhinandan: It was more a question than, uh- Yeah ... I mean, I don't have a firm position on it actually, Sunny. I think a lot of stuff that one muses in today's day and age of social media, one assumes that that is a- Mm[01:18:38] Abhinandan: firm position. This is, this is what I think. [01:18:41] Song: Mm. [01:18:42] Abhinandan: Yeah. On many things, at least my generation, don't have a view. You... I, I find very rare that someone of Gen Z will say, "I will- don't have a view." They will have a view because they are pushed to take a view. [01:18:52] Shardool: Yeah, yeah. I was listening to, um, a neuroscience podcast.[01:18:55] Shardool: I think it's... I, I, I listen to this boring stuff. They were saying that a, a thought is evolving and research is being done and people are discussing, that human beings didn't evolve to live this long and interact with that many people at the same time. And this is why our brains are sort of so fucked up and people go so mad- [01:19:13] Abhinandan: That's [01:19:14] Shardool: fascinating[01:19:14] Shardool: 50. Because for the longest time in human history, people died before 30. [01:19:18] Abhinandan: Too much overload on the ... [01:19:19] Shardool: Yeah. And like, just nobody addressed millions of people. At best you could do with 10,000. Mm. If you had a mic or... At best, rarely. And somehow that ha- that warps our understanding of what we feel and we have to take a stand.[01:19:34] Shardool: Nobody needs to take a stand. When, when Chetan says, "I don't have an idea," I trust him. He's not interested in that topic. Which is okay. You don't need to be interested in everything. I hate social media. [01:19:44] Abhinandan: Yeah, also on, you know, the centrists changing the world, yeah, I think as a statement, I don't necessarily agree with it.[01:19:50] Abhinandan: Uh, but like the one example I always give, and, uh, I think I've given when we're discussing many things with Manish also- Mm ... that, you know, strategically, you know, what position one takes, et cetera, or even when we discuss politics. Uh, I have sympathy and respect for Malcolm X. [01:20:10] Song: Mm-hmm. [01:20:10] Abhinandan: And I have sympathy and respect and a great deal for admiration for Martin Luther King.[01:20:16] Abhinandan: Now, if you... And I've recommended that podcast on Hafta in the past, you know, Mar- Martin Luther King versus Malcolm X. Malcolm X. And, uh, Malcolm X was not the mo-com- most complimentary about, you know- Yes ... uh, King's, uh, positions or work- Yes ... et cetera, et cetera. And you know, they've compared, they've compared the other.[01:20:34] Abhinandan: But I would say Martin Luther King had a far bigger impact than Malcolm X for civil rights. Similarly, Bapu, who was criticized for his, you know, playing footsie with, uh- [01:20:48] Shardool: Britishers ... [01:20:48] Abhinandan: the British, as opposed to Ambedkar who had a way more, I think, ethical and a way more, uh... His position, I think, in pure idealistic terms was a better position on, you know, to what extent do we accommodate- [01:21:04] Yogi video : Mm[01:21:05] Abhinandan: how democracy is passed on from them to the upper castes- Yeah ... et cetera. But clearly Bapu had a bigger impact. I think you have to accommodate a little bit. Now, I don't think that is centrism, but I do think that for impact, ideology, ideologues are important, impact is important. The, like, there would be no ideology if they were not ideologues.[01:21:32] Abhinandan: But they will always have a lesser impact on historical moments than someone who has kind of made a slight adjustment- Yeah ... I feel. [01:21:40] Manisha Pande: Like Obama, there's this example of Obama who, uh, consistently didn't support, uh, gay marriages. [01:21:48] Abhinandan: Yeah. [01:21:48] Manisha Pande: And then finally moved to that- [01:21:50] Abhinandan: No, that's it. There, that position with time.[01:21:52] Manisha Pande: But I guess what the idea is that inter- people who keep trying for incremental change- Yeah ... ultimately have an impact. But the ideologues push the conversation, which is also important. [01:22:02] Abhinandan: And so do, and you can also argue, so do revolutions have an impact. You know, French Revolution. [01:22:05] Manisha Pande: Yeah. [01:22:06] Abhinandan: But the Russian Revolution didn't have the desired impact.[01:22:09] Abhinandan: So it really depends, uh, I think it's case-by-case basis. [01:22:12] Shardool: You know, when you were talking about Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, and I finally realized what analogy to tell you to understand why I like X-Men more. I've m- I've mentioned it so many time. [01:22:21] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:22:22] Shardool: You have to understand X-Men basic storyline, and it was made about racism and all.[01:22:26] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:22:27] Shardool: But d- rather than blacks, it was mutants. [01:22:29] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:22:30] Shardool: X-Men story is Malcolm X versus Martin Luther King, which is Charles Xavier versus Magneto. [01:22:36] Abhinandan: That's, that's fantastic. Yes, I never thought of that. Yes. Exactly, that's what it is. [01:22:40] Shardool: And I am just on Magneto's side. Never again. [01:22:43] Abhinandan: Right. Mm, good point. Right, thank you. I repeat, please send us your feedback, your suggestions or recommendations, podcasts@newslaundry.com.[01:22:53] Abhinandan: I repeat, podcasts@newslaundry.com, or you can click on the link in the show notes below. Now we'll get the recommendations from the panel. Manushi, you wanna go first? [01:23:00] Manisha Pande: Yes, I have a recommendation from, uh, News Laundry. Two very good pieces on... It's been gonna be about a year since the Gen Z revolt in Nepal- Mm[01:23:10] Manisha Pande: and it completely changed things there. But what does it look like now? Uh, one is their new prime minister and how he treats the media, and the second is how he uses social media, and it's really fascinating. In fact, um, Balen Shah registers his income in the affidavit, uh, the income that he's put is mostly income generated through social media.[01:23:34] Abhinandan: Wow. [01:23:35] Manisha Pande: That's the prime minister of Nepal. So he's [01:23:36] Abhinandan: actually an influencer. His Facebook- [01:23:37] Manisha Pande: Modi [01:23:38] Abhinandan: is not the influencer in chief ... [01:23:40] Manisha Pande: 14.6 million Nepali rupees from Facebook, YouTube, and X followers. That's how he communicates with his people, and that's how he runs his government, and it's quite dystopian. So read these two parts on what's really happened to Nepal after those viral re- reels and everything that we saw [01:23:56] Abhinandan: Hmm.[01:23:58] Shardool: I have three recommendations. The first one is, um, again, one year. It's, it's such a fascinating thing how people look at even the same timeline, same organization sitting. I'm talking about one year to Dharali. Hmm. The hiatus piece. [01:24:12] Song: Hmm. [01:24:12] Shardool: But I am like a jungle boy, so you- Hmm ... can't be helped. Again, that's what our governments and businesses are doing to these ancient mountains, and we[01:24:23] Shardool: I- in my opinion, if you are to think it like this, we are testing patience of nature. Like, any day it's gonna get pissed off and we'll be wiped out. So one is this. The second is Manisha and me were talking when Abhishek was talking, it reminded me that about 11 years ago when homosexuality was recognized by court, so UP and Bihar get a lot of flack from rest of the country, but a Bhojpuri song was made about , "Layka se layka ka hoyi shaadi."[01:24:53] Shardool: It's a homosexuality supporting song in Bhojpuri. Hmm. And the third one is, um, my nerd thing. [01:25:00] Song: Hmm. [01:25:00] Shardool: Veritasium, and last week they uploaded a beautiful thing. The, why does every mammal get one billion heartbeats? Oh, fascinating. It's fascinating because if you are to understand, really understand this world, forget about politics.[01:25:15] Shardool: Science is the thing. [01:25:16] Abhinandan: Science is the way to go, right. This is ... In today's Indian Express, actually I was about to recommend an Economist podcast, but when I saw this story today I was like, this is the one thing I should recommend. Because when the scheme came out, so many people I spoke to were like, "What are they even thinking?"[01:25:35] Abhinandan: That the government gives startups funding. So Indian Express has a report written by Amitabh Sinha and Sandeep Singh, they're the journalists. Government tech fund goes to private firms linked to the panel that selected them. [01:25:47] Shardool: Nice. [01:25:48] Abhinandan: Government set up a fund that we will become VCs. We will give investment funds.[01:25:53] Abhinandan: Like we've seen when it comes to distributing advertising to media, what are the parameters that work? Mm-hmm. The more hateful, the better. The more hideous, the better. Why would you think somehow a fund created by the government to invest in private companies would have better judgment? I think this typifies what this government thinks it can get away with and does Fantastic work, Indian Express.[01:26:22] Abhinandan: With that, I'd like to thank our wonderful sound recordist, Anil, our wonderful producer, Amit and Saurabh. Thank you, Manisha. Thank you, Shardul. And thank you all. Have a fantastic weekend, and carry an umbrella[01:27:06] Manisha Pande: Thank you for your subscription. You're changing the world by changing the way news is funded. For the smoothest News Laundry experience, download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our paywall podcasts, and you'll also get access to all free News Laundry shows. Keep us ad-free and subscriber-funded.[01:27:24] Manisha Pande: Help us grow. Tell people who listen to you to pay to keep news free. Subscribe to News Laundry. Keep journalism independent

2026/8/8

‘Breach of trust by govt’: Sonam Wangchuk on CJP protest, hunger strike, what comes next

The Ladakhi educationist and activist discusses his hunger strike, the hospital that held him, the ministers who broke a pledge, and the trust deficit in this country. <figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-08-06/nsahzzp7/WANCHUK-CHUNK-1-.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutouts of Sonam Wangchuk and Rinchen Norbu for an interview on Newslaundry." referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/8G8kcoVnFxg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G8kcoVnFxg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>In a wide-ranging interview with Newslaundry, educationist and climate activist Sonam Wangchuk detailed his journey into, and through, the Cockroach Janta Party protest, from his forcible removal from Jantar Mantar on July 18 to the breaking of his indefinite fast days later. Wangchuk alleged the hospital that held him “fudged” his potassium reports to justify keeping him in the ICU, away from the protest site, calling it “a total breach of trust”. He described breaking his fast with Union ministers as another such breach, after visuals aired showing only the ministers, cropping out the Ladakh leaders present. On July 20’s police crackdown, he said accountability was owed – “that’s the least you can do” – while noting his own frame of reference as a Ladakhi made the violence look mild by comparison. Reflecting on why he persisted through the fast despite pressure to stop, he said hunger strikes work “not with the leaders... but with the people of the nation who they cannot ignore.” Asked about his future role, he said: “I call myself a bulldozer, not a car... once the road is built, you don’t want bulldozers running on the road.” Subscribe to watch the full interview.

2026/8/6

Awful and Awesome Ep 412: The Odyssey and Dhurandhar sequel

The pop culture podcast that isn’t afraid to pop the bubble.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-08-06/rgczx607/ana-6.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Latest episode of A&A with Abhinandan Sekhri and Rajyasree Sen. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>While discussing Dhurandhar: The Revenge:Abhinandan: Today we are going to be reviewing two things, and both I’ve watched. Have you watched both? Rajyasree: Yes. Abhinandan: Don’t give me… I will give you a slap.Rajyasree: One I watched because you forced me. You said we’ll review it, and then you were trying to knock it off.Abhinandan: I forced you? I put pins under her eyes so she can’t close her eyes. Yeah. I can’t force you to watch anything. Rajyasree: You forced…you said, “We will... You must review it. It’s online and all.” It was the worst movie-watching experience of my entire life. Abhinandan: Guess which one it is.This and a whole lot of awful and awesome in this special episode as Abhinandan and Rajyasree discuss The Odyssey and Dhurandhar The Revenge.<iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ec24dba84c3fb5c3f29dd3a/6a745c1daa557e62dc0888e9" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe> <figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FXGtNsyx1kM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXGtNsyx1kM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>Timecodes00:00: Intro05:49: Letters09:34: Dhurandhar: The Revenge13:31: The Odyssey31:46: LettersClick <ins><a href="https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.newslaundry.android.app">here</a></ins> to download the Newslaundry app on Android. And <ins><a href="https://apps.apple.com/in/app/newslaundry/id1609227019?mt=8">here</a></ins> for iOS.Produced and edited by Hassan Bilal. Recorded by Anil Kumar.

2026/8/6

NL Hafta Subscribers’ Take Ep 8: A special feedback episode

Catching up on all the letters received from subscribers.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2025-05-21/xacj3l5e/Hafta-letters-thumbnail-.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutout of Abhinandan Sekhri with a NL cartoon and text stating, 'Hafta Subscribers' Take. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>In this special episode of NL Hafta, Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal and Rinchen Norbu catch up on all the letters that we’ve received from subscribers.Hafta letters: NL app issues, story suggestions, CJP protest<figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/phIGAkR2K6Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://youtu.be/phIGAkR2K6Q" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure><iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ec3d9497cef7479d2ef4798/6a7452f62578a0c7e2e36ade" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe>We have a page for subscribers to send letters to our shows. If you want to write to Hafta, <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/podcast-letters">click here</a></ins>. Check out the<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/store?routeName=NlStore"> Newslaundry store</a></ins> and flaunt your love for independent media. Download the<ins><a href="http://www.newslaundry.com/download-app"> Newslaundry app</a></ins>. <ins>Timecodes</ins>00:00:00 – Introduction00:02:09 – Letters<ins>References </ins><ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/pl_TGWwtDUMNLsSAu/view">Get The Sticker. Pay to keep News Free </a></ins>Produced by Amit Pandey; sound by Anil Kumar.[00:00:00] Manisha: This is a News Laundry podcast and you're listening to NL Hafta[00:00:11] Abhinandan: Angrez apna lagaan aur News Laundry apna haftah kabhi nahi chhodte. Not only hum haftah kabhi nahi chhodte, hum add kar dete hain haftah Subscribers Take so that any pending email grievance is dealt with and addressed because unlike some other people in our country, we don't just ignore the criticism that [00:00:30] comes our way.[00:00:30] Abhinandan: But we are happy to report it's not just criticism that comes. Many of you also write good things. So thank you for that. This is the eighth episode of Subscribers Take. In the panel today, Manisha Pandey. [00:00:42] Manisha: Hi. [00:00:43] Abhinandan: Rinchin Norbu. [00:00:44] Rinchen: Hi. [00:00:45] Abhinandan: And joining us on Zoom is Raman Kripal. Hi, Raman sir. [00:00:48] Rinchen: Hi. [00:00:50] Abhinandan: So those of you who don't already know, now we've done eight episodes.[00:00:53] Abhinandan: All the emails that we can't address in the regular haftah because it sometimes goes over an hour and a half or two hours, we save them [00:01:00] up and then we address them in a special Subscribers Take, which is dedicated to responding to whatever inputs you have. So if you're a subscriber, you can mail us at podcasts@newslaundry.com.[00:01:11] Abhinandan: I repeat, podcasts@newslaundry.com, but you have to be a subscriber, and if you're not a subscriber yet, it's a great time to become one because people are now proud to support in- independent media. It's trendy. You know, of course, we had set the trend about 15 years ago. So you can get stickers such as [00:01:30] these.[00:01:30] Abhinandan: You can put them on your fridge, on your car, on your cycle, on your f- on your relative's window who doesn't like independent media just to piss them off. Uh, so if you're already a subscriber, we are sending them for free. Just pay for the, uh, courier charges. And if you're not a subscriber, we're giving you a discount because now suddenly everyone's aware of the importance of independent media.[00:01:54] Abhinandan: You'll get these stickers for free so you can wear proudly, "I pay to keep news free." Uh, [00:02:00] because I had that sticker on my car and someone stopped me and said, "Good, you support independent media." I said, "Thank you so much." With that, let me start off, and when I get tired, Rinchin or Manisha can take over. [00:02:14] Manisha: Yes.[00:02:15] Abhinandan: Erbil says, "Here's a more natural spoken version. I'm looking for book rec- recommendations on caste. I have Annihilation of Caste on my reading list, and I'm currently reading Meet the Savarnas. What I'm really trying to understand is caste itself, where it came from, how it [00:02:30] evolved over time, and how caste-based discrimination became so deeply rooted in our society.[00:02:34] Abhinandan: I'm especially interested in understanding how much of our behavior is influenced by caste." So putting this out to all the listeners, if you have any recommendations you think I should explore, please send them. You can mail Erbil at erbiltheelephant?[00:02:50] Abhinandan: Elephant, yeah. But the and the elephant's E is the same. So it's erbilthelifant@gmail.com. [00:03:00] It's on my screen. But- [00:03:03] Raman: There are- [00:03:03] Abhinandan: You guys have any recommendations? Raman sir, yeah ... [00:03:05] Raman: there are two, there are [00:03:06] Abhinandan: two writers. [00:03:06] Raman: Hmm. There are two writers, uh, if you really want to have a basic understanding of caste. So two, uh, very renowned sociologist of India, Andre Bete- Hmm[00:03:13] Raman: he has written on caste and class. Hmm. And MN Srinivas- Mm ... who has[00:03:19] Raman: written on, uh, I think his book name was Modernization of Indian [00:03:20] Josy promo: Tradition- Mm ... [00:03:21] Raman: if I'm not wrong. Uh,[00:03:29] Raman: so where, where [00:03:30] the caste has really been, uh, you know, dealt with in detail. So they are academic books, but, uh, I think they have given a very good under- understanding of caste system in India. [00:03:42] Rinchen: I have, uh, one I've just tried to Googled it again. I read this some time back, so this is Caste Matters. Caste Matters.[00:03:49] Rinchen: Ah. Suraj Yengde's book. Suraj Yengde, yeah. I was also recommend that. Um, and of course, the other two books mentioned. Uh, I've, I haven't read as many books as I should on caste, but I would also [00:04:00] recommend beyond... If you wanna go beyond books, I would recommend, uh, uh, this reporter from The Caravan, Sagar, who speaks- Hmm[00:04:06] Rinchen: who, who speaks and writes a lot about caste matters. Uh, his work is definitely worth checking out. He recently did a podcast, uh, with one of our columnists, Anurag Minusarma. Hmm. So it's a really excellent podcast, uh, which I would recommend you listen. So yeah, those are my recommendations. [00:04:23] Abhinandan: Hadn't, uh, Mukul- And [00:04:24] Raman: one more, one more writer.[00:04:25] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:04:26] Raman: One more writer is Yogendra Singh. Hmm. So he has also [00:04:30] written very extensively on this. [00:04:31] Abhinandan: Hadn't Mukul also written something on caste? Um- [00:04:35] Manisha: Mukul Kesavan? [00:04:36] Abhinandan: No. Um, who wrote that really thick book on the Gita Press? Akshay Mukul. [00:04:41] Rinchen: Akshay Mukul. Akshay [00:04:42] Manisha: Mukul. No. Yeah. Akshay Mukul's written on Gita Press and then Ag- Aghay.[00:04:46] Manisha: Hmm. But I don't think he's written on caste. No. Anand Teltumbde has written, like- Yeah, of course ... the book, Republic of Caste- Yeah ... is, I mean, it's... But I have not read it, but it's supposed to be the best. [00:04:55] Abhinandan: Right, Erbil. Then Madan says, "Just want to let you know, the new Kartik Aaryan [00:05:00] movie, Nagrzilla- ... is produced by the same people you did a recent Bollywood feature on, Manisha."[00:05:06] Manisha: Nagzilla, I have not seen [00:05:08] Abhinandan: it I've not even heard of Nagzilla Let me see [00:05:09] Rinchen: who are the [00:05:11] Manisha: Jain production [00:05:13] Abhinandan: Pull out Nagzilla for [00:05:15] Manisha: us Sounds so weird. Naglok ka pehla kand Mahavir Jain, yes. Mahavir [00:05:17] Rinchen: Jain? Yes. [00:05:19] Manisha: Mahavir [00:05:20] Abhinandan: Jain? Achcha Anjali- Part, part three is coming out of the- The [00:05:23] Manisha: Jain bros Anjali [00:05:24] Rinchen: Mahavir Jain and Aadhaar Poonawalla [00:05:27] Abhinandan: I see Then Harsh [00:05:30] Vardhan says, "As a 23-year-old NewsLaundary subscriber and a regular Hafta listener, I'd like to express my extreme frustration with the state of policing in India, and how police personnel are, and have always been nothing more than lawless gunda gangs backed by the state.[00:05:44] Abhinandan: This is consistent across political, as well as geographical boundaries. I propose changing the scheme of the police uniform every five years to match the party colors of the winner. That will at least be a more honest reflection of reality." Harsh Vardhan, fantastic idea. Jokes apart, I believe that freeing the [00:06:00] police from political influence and making it more accountable to the public would mean fixing the very foundation from which stem all other aspects of the state, its monopoly on violence.[00:06:10] Abhinandan: Do you think there will ever be a realistic scenario where the state, states and the center come together in the name of police reform- Hmm ... and willingly give up such a big chunk of their hard power for the greater good? Uh, book club Bangalore plans. Yes, uh, we do. In fact, Muskan, my colleague, is figuring out Bangalore plans.[00:06:27] Manisha: Yeah. The next month, no? [00:06:30] [00:06:30] Abhinandan: Something like this? We're thinking of, uh, August, but let's see. Maybe August or September. We'll definitely do a Bangalore book club. Wow, [00:06:34] Manisha: okay. [00:06:35] Abhinandan: Hmm, what do you think? Is it possible, reforms? [00:06:39] Rinchen: No, I mean see, I- ultimately it's about incentives, and currently the political class has no incentive to give up that power unless they are forced by the polity or pe- or, you know, people who are sort of...[00:06:53] Rinchen: Unless they're forced by their voters, unless it becomes an issue, uh, like say education as, as, as it is currently right [00:07:00] now. Unless policing becomes a serious sort of, you know, voter related issue, I really don't think, uh, politicians would give up that sort of power. It's because they work on incentives ultimately.[00:07:10] Rinchen: But [00:07:11] Manisha: one really wished- [00:07:13] Josy promo: Yeah ... [00:07:13] Manisha: that this would happen. [00:07:14] Josy promo: I- [00:07:14] Manisha: But I feel like also there should be, um, like army veterans have a very strong lobby that is very involved with what's happening in the army. And even the police, like this, uh, petition that's been filed on the pellet guns used, it's by a former IPS, Yashovardhan [00:07:30] Jha.[00:07:30] Manisha: Hmm. Maybe people in service can't say much, but I think seniors, veterans, they also need to come together to really be a lobby to push for this. [00:07:39] Abhinandan: I mean, I don't know. Like, I think also the camaraderie and the togetherness of- Army ... Fauji brass is because they- Mm ... are like boarding school boys. [00:07:51] Rinchen: Yeah. [00:07:52] Abhinandan: They've been together at NDA, they've been together at IMA.[00:07:54] Abhinandan: Mm. So it's that same thing, like if you've been to an all-boys boarding, there is that, you know, feeling of community. Cops don't [00:08:00] have that. Yeah. So actually cops, the way they throw each other under the bus- Hmm ... they know that they are... And they all know that, and they don't even m- I mean, it's not like they take it personally.[00:08:07] Abhinandan: I mean, I know senior cops. He says, "Look, my colleague who's junior to me..." In fact, we were discussing, Ramman said yesterday, one guy from '89 batch superseded the guy from '84 batch, and he will, if the political bosses say, "Arrest him and start an inquiry," they will do that. And that guy knows he'll do that.[00:08:22] Abhinandan: Mm. So there is... And it's a very cynical thing, but I think the- Other than incentives, the other possibility is [00:08:30] we all know what everybody thinks of the cops. But the way they have been shown their place by the protesters, and I'm not talking about the violence, I'm just saying telling them to their face, "You guys suck."[00:08:41] Manisha: Mm. Mm. [00:08:42] Abhinandan: I think maybe I'm expecting too much. I think shaming them also may, uh, lead to some sort of reform. [00:08:49] Manisha: I don't know. But see what's happening in Bihar, those- [00:08:51] Abhinandan: Mm ... [00:08:52] Manisha: everyone who protested is still locked up. The cops bashed some of the protesters. [00:08:57] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:08:58] Manisha: I mean, what happens in Delhi, [00:09:00] sadly, it's just doesn't happen in the rest of the country.[00:09:02] Abhinandan: In other ... Yeah, correct. Anonymous says, "Thank you for your reporting and discussions. In connection to the demand for reform in the education system, I s- wanted to attract attention to the large number of vacancies in elite academic institutions like IITs, I- IITs, AIIMS, et cetera. Recently, ISRO saw many resignations adding to the vacancies, which number in the thousands.[00:09:21] Abhinandan: It is not enough to just construct buildings and claim the work of building as an institution. Such irregularities compound the pressure on students giving [00:09:30] competitive exams. It also contributes to the brain drain, as finding a job as a well-qualified individual is harder by the day. Even though the US makes it harder for academics, the government only says big words, but doesn't make it easier to return and work in India and research.[00:09:44] Abhinandan: Private companies also don't host research departments in India. Is it possible for NL to deep dive into this?" Well, actually, Manisha, we've been- [00:09:52] Abhinandan: Mm ... [00:09:52] Abhinandan: contemplating this. Yeah. I mean, there is some grant given if you want to research on gobar and gaumutra. I know that there was officially some money that was set [00:10:00] aside for that.[00:10:02] Abhinandan: But ISRO, uh... Actually, that's a story that was taken up by, uh, I think The Daily Brief, um, about the ISRO resignation. The government was saying it has nothing to do with- this is normal. Uh, the claim is it's not. [00:10:16] Manisha: Um, Daily... I don't know the story. But no, we were trying to do something on ISRO. Uh, we had got some leads also on this also, no?[00:10:24] Manisha: We did. Some. Yeah. But then they didn't wanna... They were currently working, so they didn't wanna really... [00:10:30] But if anyone has any leads, please send us. [00:10:32] Abhinandan: Yeah. [00:10:32] Manisha: We should follow this. [00:10:32] Abhinandan: Abhinavansakrey@gmail.com Right. Then we have Priya Patel says, "On and off subscriber here. You guys are probably getting a lot of flak for inviting Hartosh to discuss Satluj.[00:10:45] Abhinandan: I liked the counter arguments made by Shardul and Manisha. Maybe it's worth inviting another Punjab expert from the Sikh community to make their counter arguments." [00:10:52] Raman: Hmm. "[00:10:53] Abhinandan: If they're willing to, of course. Just a thought." Priya, um, thank you. Actually, we are, we've [00:11:00] already spoken to about four people. We're putting together a panel to discuss Satluj- [00:11:03] Raman: Hmm[00:11:03] Abhinandan: with journalists who worked on the ground, with a screenwriter, because the angle we were discussing is the how complete can a film be? Yeah. I mean, can you blame a film for leaving certain bits out, and how does it kind of change the narrative? But then, you know, last two weeks the news cycle was something else.[00:11:21] Abhinandan: Hmm. So we've pushed that. But yes, we have a panel in place, and we will be doing a detailed discussion on this. Then Nikhil says, "It would be interesting to wonder if the freedom movement would [00:11:30] have had the same momentum if instead of cracking down on Indians, the Britisher had given freebies like cash.[00:11:36] Abhinandan: Sorry to be flippant." Nikhil, that's okay. We're always flippant. Prakash Iyer says, "Hello, Newsline team. Wasn't the information about Kalra available in public domain prior to Media Rumble interview? It was a planned event, and the movie was to be discussed. Hmm. An ideal opportunity to discuss both the censor board issues as well as the movie subject itself.[00:11:53] Abhinandan: Why was seamless, seemingly obvious homework gone done prior to it?" Prakash, because the panel was for, [00:12:00] uh, people who had made different kind of films. I hosted the panel, and quite honestly, just the- Oh, God ... uh, the size of team we have, I can't go do a deep dive into each film. Uh, I had seen his film, and that's about- Huh[00:12:15] Abhinandan: as much as I, I knew of it. [00:12:17] Manisha: Also, the panel was really about censorship. [00:12:19] Abhinandan: Hmm, not [00:12:19] Manisha: about the film. I mean, this would have to be a deep dive into- [00:12:21] Abhinandan: One film ... [00:12:22] Manisha: yeah. And irrespective of what the film shows, yeah, censorship still... I mean- Hmm ... the point is that he deserved to show his film. [00:12:29] Abhinandan: Yeah. [00:12:29] Manisha: [00:12:30] Whatever you may think of.[00:12:31] Abhinandan: Yeah. Ravindra Singh says, "Hi, team. I watched Hafta discussion on Satluj and want to share a concern about the continuing demonization of Sikhs in mainstream discourse. Abhinandan suggests that because Jaswant Singh Khalra sympathized with Khalistan, his legacy is somehow diminished. But we don't know why he held those views.[00:12:47] Abhinandan: After Operation Blue Star, 1984 anti-Sikh violence and police terror in Punjab, many felt abandoned by the state." [00:12:53] Manisha: Hmm. "[00:12:54] Abhinandan: Khalra never joined a militant group. Instead, he exposed illegal killings, and that work should stand on its own." Hmm. No doubt. [00:13:00] "On the numbers, I agree with Bal that there is no definitive figure, but even 6 to 7,000 killings are far too many."[00:13:06] Abhinandan: Well, even- Yeah ... 100 is far too many, yeah. "His call for accountability also seems inconsistent. He holds Modi responsible because leadership matters, yet defends his own uncle." You know, honestly, I, at least on our platform here, I've never discussed KPS Gill with him, and I, uh, maybe there's video, but I, I've never seen him discuss KPS Gill.[00:13:25] Abhinandan: Have you? [00:13:26] Rinchen: I think he- [00:13:26] Manisha: On Twitter he was. [00:13:27] Rinchen: Hmm. I think he wrote a piece for Scroll also, I think, on KPS- [00:13:30] On KPS Gill? Yeah, I think on KPS Gill. Yeah, yeah. I think he written [00:13:32] Manisha: on KPS- Precisely he's refuting the numbers and everything. [00:13:36] Rinchen: Hmm. [00:13:36] Abhinandan: Oh, the numbers. Yeah. [00:13:37] Rinchen: And no, and also I think defending his u- his uncle's actions also- Yeah[00:13:41] Rinchen: in the distinct [00:13:42] Abhinandan: case. But th- that's not a discussion I have, yeah, because I'm not gonna discuss KPS Gill with his nephew. Uh, we were discussing Jhelum, and that is what- [00:13:49] Manisha: Satluj. [00:13:49] Abhinandan: Satluj ... Satluj, sorry. That is what it was restricted to Halim Reza says, "Hey, really enjoyed your latest podcast episode 598. On episode 597, Hartosh's [00:14:00] arguments are good.[00:14:00] Abhinandan: I would be delighted if you could have another round with him along with Jose Joseph of The Silent Coup." That would be a fantastic one, Jose and Hartosh. Uh, "They were not expected to behave like terrorists. They were hunting even in the thickest fog of war. The law abider and law breaker must be distinguished."[00:14:16] Abhinandan: Page 218, Silent Coup. Mm. Well, I mean, that's a great book. Yeah. I mean, Jose is just next level writer. In fact, I've just done an interview with him on his new book. Here's a [00:14:24] Abhinandan: little promo. [00:14:25] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:14:25] Abhinandan: Then Birth of [00:14:25] Abhinandan: a Nation is gonna have to compete with Bal Narendra [00:14:30] Today we have with us Jose Joseph, who I have interviewed for the third time now because he has written yet another book.[00:14:38] Abhinandan: It's called Birth of a Nation. So how long are days in Kerala? Ram Guha has written a book on, you know, when India came about. There's so many books written on this. Did you feel that, "Dude, will I be end up doing what has been done before already?" [00:14:50] Josy promo: Independence was not just the bloodiest partition in human history.[00:14:53] Josy promo: Hmm. Not just the formation of the largest republic in human history, not just the first big state to emerge out of [00:15:00] nonviolence. You know, Gandhi pulls ahimsa out of our great Indian Hindu tradition- Hmm ... and makes it into the most powerful weapon. [00:15:06] Abhinandan: Here was this repository of all the scandals and all the filth that was happening inside their palaces.[00:15:12] Josy promo: Political department that you're talking about, which is the most important department of the empire run by Sir Conrad Corfield. He's burning down documents which contains all the secrets and scandals of the princely states and the rulers of the princely states. Hmm. In the second week of June, there is a meeting which Mountbatten [00:15:30] called.[00:15:30] Josy promo: At that meeting, Nehru just gives it to Sir Conrad Corfield. He takes him on in front of everybody, and Mountbatten goes quiet. [00:15:36] Raman: Hmm. [00:15:37] Josy promo: I think it's the greatest triumph of journalism in human history. Every freedom fighter being a journalist. Gandhi founded four newspapers. Ambedkar- That's [00:15:45] Abhinandan: interesting. I've never thought of it like that.[00:15:46] Josy promo: Yeah. Ambedkar four, Nehru one. I think that what is happening in our media today is, in many ways, is- [00:15:53] Abhinandan: Is the opposite of what indep- what journalists did for independence, journalists today are doing the opposite. [00:16:00] Uh, but yeah, I mean, I hear you, Halim. I, I think. But anyway, this, because Jose's area of expertise is not Punjab, this panel we're putting together is- Hmm[00:16:11] Abhinandan: Punjab specifically. [00:16:11] Rinchen: By the way, the first time I ever read about Jaswant Singh Khalra was in The Silent Coup. Oh, is [00:16:16] Abhinandan: that [00:16:16] Rinchen: right? Yeah, that's the first time I'd ever come across his name. [00:16:19] Abhinandan: Hmm. And, [00:16:19] Rinchen: like, then went into a rabbit hole of research. [00:16:23] Abhinandan: Harpinder Rayar- Rayar ... Rayar says, this is, uh, summarized using AI, [00:16:30] "Hi, I'm a Canadian who regularly watches your YouTube videos and admire your journalism.[00:16:33] Abhinandan: However, I was a little disappointed by the discussion in your episode, who was Jaswant Singh Khalra? The focus shifted from the documented human rights abuses to Khalra's political views." [00:16:41] Raman: Hmm. "[00:16:42] Abhinandan: Even if he admired Bhindranwale, does that diminish his work exposing illegals?" No, it doesn't. "Why was his character debated instead of the atrocities uncovered?"[00:16:50] Abhinandan: I'm not sure we're debating his character. There was just one aspect which was new to me, and it-- for me, it was an important aspect. "The figure of 25,000 disappeared [00:17:00] people has long been contested, and many Punjabis who lived through that period believe the actual number was higher. More importantly, even one unlawful killing is too many.[00:17:06] Abhinandan: There has never been meaningful accountability for the '84 anti-Sikh violence or the abuses during Punjab's insurgency. The trauma remains deeply personal for many families. I encourage you to hear survivor testimonies, including Jaswant Singh Dhillon's account, and approach his history with greater sensitivity and context."[00:17:22] Abhinandan: So Harpinder, actually, I've done a series which actually was- hosted by me on [00:17:30] Let's Talk About Punjab. And in that I have spoken to a girl who was 17 when she was married to a man who was a terrorist militant, depending how you call it And she runs a school for children who are orphaned. [00:17:45] Raman: Hmm. [00:17:46] Abhinandan: Uh, so I would urge you to, I think it's a two-part series.[00:17:49] Abhinandan: So it's not like I haven't met these people or spoken with these people. I've spoken to them off show, but I have also spoken to them on the show, and what you will hear on the podcast is just a fraction of all that [00:18:00] she told me. Like a 17-year-old girl who was harassed because her husband was a ... And she said, "When I got married, it was arranged marriage."[00:18:06] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. She, she didn't know who she was marrying. [00:18:07] Abhinandan: Yeah. [00:18:08] Abhinandan: So initially she was like, "Hello, why are you guys after me? Why are you pick-" Yeah. She was picked up and taken to the police station. I'm aware of all that. It's, it's, it's not ... I'm not saying one justifies the other, but I'd just like to know. It's, it's, I think it's important.[00:18:22] Abhinandan: You want to carry on with some of the mails, uh, uh, Rinchin, Manisha? Yeah. [00:18:26] Rinchen: Gurpreet Singh says, "Uh, no serious Punjabi wants Khalistan, [00:18:30] but it's sad and unfortunate that Hartosh B- or Tavleen S. and others like them have miserably failed to evolve their ideas since those days, repeating the same stuff and becoming a mouthpiece for the state.[00:18:40] Rinchen: This is what even a rational, liberal Sikh would dislike. The terror of PP," I think Punjab Police, if I'm not wrong- Hmm ... "is still very much prevalent. Successive governments have used police and protected them. The notion of, notion of Khalsa Raj has an emotional and sentimental value. Who gives rights to a constitutional state to behave in an unconstitutional, barbarian way, [00:19:00] barbaric way?[00:19:01] Rinchen: Is 7,000 a small number? As Abhinandan said, there are multiple layers to a personality, which is shaped by political, economic and other factors. Admired Manisha and Shardul's understanding. And finally, who killed Kaura? It was the state and its police. P.S. Punjabis don't have m- have a Mandela who will give clo- closure by truth and reconciliation.[00:19:20] Rinchen: Thank you. Keep, keep up the great work. Always with you." Thank you, Gurpreet. [00:19:24] Abhinandan: Thank you, Gurpreet. [00:19:25] Rinchen: Bhavneet Bhinder says, "Hi, NL Hafta team. I'm writing about a discussion on [00:19:30] Sutlej and how the debate eventually came down to numbers. The figures may have been overstated, fair enough, but does that diminish the fear and horror Punjab lived through during the years of militancy?[00:19:40] Rinchen: My father was posted in Firozpur then, and I was in first grade. My memories are of fear. Colonies locked behind iron gates at sunset, worrying every evening if my grandfather was running, was late returning home, hearing screams from a nearby police station, taking cover under the bed after midnight gunfire, and a loaded gun kept by the bedside every night.[00:20:00] [00:20:00] Rinchen: Long journeys before dawn were marked by silence and anxious faces. The fear wasn't only of militants, it was also of the police. It was everywhere. So when Hartosh argues that numbers matter, I feel it risks overshadowing the lived experiences of Punjabis. Statistics may refine history, but they cannot capture the fear that defined everyday life.[00:20:18] Rinchen: Best, Bhavneet." [00:20:20] Josy promo: Hmm. [00:20:21] Abhinandan: Keshav [00:20:23] Rinchen: says, "Love the work you are, you are all doing. This is feedback on the app website UX." [00:20:30] Uh, I believe the app needs a UX researcher to do some control group testing, and their report should inform the UX designers. Not sure if you're already doing this. Uh, there seems to be some glaring issues, like podcast shows ordering is a bit weird, and there is no option to change the ordering by recent releases, et cetera.[00:20:49] Rinchen: Even the landing screen of the app is not that intuitive. Many times I notice myself opening the app and not being interested in the first glance of the news, then moving to podcasts, but think that I don't have an hour right now to listen [00:21:00] to something and close the app. While when I opened it on the website, I found other interesting articles that got overlooked in the app for some reason.[00:21:07] Rinchen: You might need a session with existing and new subs to best quantify how the app UX actually is. I am not a UX researcher, but can be part of res- research sessions if needed. Thank you, Keshav. [00:21:18] Abhinandan: So Keshav, we are very important. We're actually l- looking at building our app from scratch, because this is an app that was created a while ago, low cost, whatever we could afford.[00:21:30] [00:21:30] Abhinandan: In fact, I think ... I'm not a fan of their journalism, but NDTV's app is amazing. [00:21:34] Raman: Mm. [00:21:34] Manisha: Yeah. [00:21:34] Abhinandan: Just the layout- [00:21:35] Manisha: And it's been like that for a while. Yeah, their app is awesome I mean, they were early movers in the app world. [00:21:38] Abhinandan: But yeah, I know how much they spent on that app. Yeah. That's their annual budget. So but yeah, we, we should[00:21:44] Abhinandan: I think now with AI, maybe costs have come down. Uh, I think once we've got our editorial, we, we are gonna be adding some more people on our editorial side, some reporters are coming, Manisha, right? [00:21:57] Raman: Hmm. [00:21:57] Abhinandan: Once we have that sorted out, I think next thing [00:22:00] that we'll attack is the tech- It's important. Mm. [00:22:04] Rinchen: Mm.[00:22:04] Rinchen: Erbil says, uh, "Just wanted to say that it was really nice to hear Jayashree the last Hafta. Miss her reading the headlines. Having Rinchen on the panel helps ease the pain of not having Jayashree. Thanks." "I enjoy listening to him and like the points he makes. Thanks again." "Also, he has a very, really nice voice.[00:22:23] Rinchen: Thanks again." "Good decision to get him on Hafta. Would be nice to have him every week. Just one thing, Abhinandan [00:22:30] and Manisha, you guys cut him off too much." [00:22:32] Manisha: Oh, [00:22:32] Rinchen: no. No, no, no, no. That's not, doesn't happen. "Seems very disrespectful-" Okay, enough. Okay. No[00:22:40] Rinchen: carry on, finish. That's all right. "Seems very disrespectful because I feel you're not doing it to the others, although I like that he waits to get a chance and then finish his point, but guys, please let the man talk." [00:22:50] Manisha: You, who sent this? I am- Tell us honestly, who is Erbil? I have no idea . Who [00:22:52] Abhinandan: did it? Are you Erbil?[00:22:54] Abhinandan: Are you actually [00:22:55] Rinchen: I am not Erbil. [00:22:56] Abhinandan: No, I think the one thing that, see, the, the combination of [00:23:00] two or three things. One- ... is he's much younger than us. [00:23:03] Rinchen: Yeah. [00:23:04] Abhinandan: So one kind of takes liberties with him that one wouldn't take with others. Two, he's from Ladakh, so he's extremely polite. The most polite people in India, definitely.[00:23:14] Abhinandan: I don't know if on the planet. Um, and uh, third, he's new on the Hafta, so he still has to jostle his way around. [00:23:22] Rinchen: 100%. "Hey, I'm Risha Zuberi, first year MBBS student. Though I'm embarrassed to admit it, this is my first time [00:23:30] subscribing." Don't be embarrassed. Don't be [00:23:31] Manisha: embarrassed. [00:23:32] Rinchen: In- It's [00:23:32] Manisha: never too late ... [00:23:33] Rinchen: in my defense, it's from the allowance my dad gives me for food, and- [00:23:37] Abhinandan: Dude.[00:23:37] Manisha: Oh, God. [00:23:38] Rinchen: So sweet ... and I religiously listen to South Central because it's free. [00:23:41] Abhinandan: Hang on. Uh, Risha, right? [00:23:43] Rinchen: Yeah, Risha. Risha. Risha. [00:23:44] Abhinandan: Risha, uh, we shall extend your subscription for a year Uh, our wonderful producer, Amit, please make a note of it. She is a student who is subscribing from her [00:24:00] allowance that her father gives her for food.[00:24:03] Abhinandan: All you people who are smoking packets of cigarettes and having a beer for ... I mean, she's an MBBS student, so we will extend your subscription for a year. Please feed yourself. When you have a high-paying job, remember to sponsor someone else's subscription. Pay it forward. But people like you, the country's in safe hands.[00:24:25] Rinchen: I'm writing because I often struggle with how I'm supposed to consume news. After [00:24:30] reading Manufacturing Consent, I realize I sometimes don't know if my opinions are truly my own or simply echoes of what I consume. I don't challenge ideas internally because I lack the knowledge to do so. When I study physics, I question concepts because I have a foundation to build on, but with politics I don't.[00:24:45] Rinchen: So when I consume content from spaces I broadly agree with, I often accept it uncritically. How does one build the intellectual foundation needed to question information honestly, instead of merely replacing one narrative with another? Great question. Anna, [00:25:00] take it. You [00:25:00] Raman: are- [00:25:01] Rinchen: No, you- You make [00:25:01] Raman: me as from use you tell.[00:25:03] Rinchen: No, I'm, I need to think about this [00:25:06] Abhinandan: one bit. Raman Sir, you have a view. Let's l- let experience tell us. [00:25:09] Raman: No, I think she needs to, uh, read news. I mean, read a variety of news. See, you, you get news from television, you get news, uh, online, and you can get, you get newspapers also. So I think she should just mix up maybe, uh, for seven, eight days she can continuously, say, reading Indian Express 10 [00:25:30] days, and then she should read something else.[00:25:32] Raman: And then she will start understanding the nuances of news presentation. Hindu is a very good, uh, uh, paper to consume. Indian Express. Times of India for city, city news. If she lives in Delhi, I think, uh, they, she should read Times of India. And of course, she should read us because we, uh, our, our take is offbeat and our take is very different because we are a small team, so we, [00:26:00] we, we, uh, take an in-depth view on any happening thing.[00:26:04] Raman: So she should read us. [00:26:07] Abhinandan: So what I would, uh, suggest is that, A, when you're young, and I think this is also something that if you've grown up with social media, the pressure is of having an opinion. I've said this before. When I was your age, I did not have such strong opinions on many things. [00:26:23] Raman: Yeah. [00:26:24] Abhinandan: I, I was like, "I don't have a..."[00:26:26] Abhinandan: And that was not normal in our time because there [00:26:30] was no pressure of having to express it anywhere. Like now you have to express, "Have you spoken up? Have you spoken up? Have you said this? Have you said that?" [00:26:35] Raman: Yeah. And you have [00:26:36] Abhinandan: to have a position on everything from, you know, Dabang to Gaza to this, you have to have an opinion.[00:26:43] Abhinandan: So A, stay away from dogma. And understand your positions will change in life, and it's okay [00:26:51] Rinchen: Hmm [00:26:51] Abhinandan: That is important. Bapu's positions used to change so often that he had to write that whatever you want to know about me ... 'Cause people used to say- [00:26:58] Manisha: Hmm ... "[00:26:59] Abhinandan: But you [00:27:00] said this last, two last year." He said, "Whatever the last thing I said, go with that as my position."[00:27:05] Abhinandan: So be willing to change your position. Consume everybody, but it's good to understand where they're coming from. Like, I make a lot of fun of Ayn Rand- [00:27:13] Josy promo: Hmm ... [00:27:14] Abhinandan: as a social commentator, as ... But it's not like she was an idiot. No. She, she's really smart, you know? Some of the writings are excellent. [00:27:23] Josy promo: Hmm. [00:27:23] Abhinandan: I just don't agree with them, but there's a phase of my life where I did agree with them.[00:27:27] Abhinandan: Yeah. And then you ... So when you reject that point of view, [00:27:30] you don't reject the person's intellect. You just say, "You know what? Now I know a little more, so I've ... Okay, let's do an experiment. Can you think of two or three things that you've changed your position on in life in the last 15, 20, 30 years? I mean, I can think of two, but Like I've changed my position on death penalty, I've changed my position on pellet guns twice.[00:27:50] Abhinandan: So you change your position I, [00:27:51] Raman: I change my position whenever the facts are different, definitely. Yeah. So I think consumption of, uh, you know, knowledge, uh, [00:28:00] through the news that comes out, reports I mean, I think that is more important to b- make the base. And Chomsky as- Once you have the base, then you can [00:28:08] Abhinandan: make an opinion[00:28:08] Abhinandan: and Chomsky, as good as he is, is an ideologue. I mean, some of his writings is just- [00:28:12] Raman: He is an ideologue ... [00:28:12] Abhinandan: ranty. [00:28:13] Manisha: Also, it's purana now. [00:28:14] Abhinandan: Yeah, it's ... I'm [00:28:15] Manisha: not shocked I think if you ... I think curiosity and empathy, two things if you approach things, uh, with that kind of a mindset, you generally end up learning quite a bit.[00:28:24] Manisha: One is putting yourself in the other person's shoes is, like, a very classic cliché thing which you [00:28:30] learn as a kid, but it actually goes a long way in life to understand people, circumstances, why things happen. And just being curious. Uh, I also think foundational study in philosophy is important. Um, and I, I think we should at least have those moral science- Yeah[00:28:48] Manisha: you know, they used to have stupid moral science? Moral science, yeah. The tortoise rabbit race- ... and I don't know what all nonsense. There should be a foundational study of philosophies because it, it really trains you into thinking how different [00:29:00] people thought about things, how they disagreed, how there was a debate.[00:29:03] Manisha: I think that kind of really helps. It helped me, I think, studying that earlier in life. Um, just to know that people, people are looking at the same thing and coming to different conclusions, debating about something very basic. So that kind of trains your mind a little bit. I don't know why I think that should be introduced in schools- [00:29:22] Rinchen: 100%[00:29:23] Manisha: instead of moral- [00:29:23] Rinchen: School, especially high, like, especially high school, 11th. M- I would recommend high school, but- [00:29:28] Manisha: Yeah ... [00:29:29] Rinchen: [00:29:30] anywhere, man, from middle school. Like, philosophy, Western and Indian philosophy- Yeah ... the canons at least. [00:29:36] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:29:36] Rinchen: Have a basic exposition. Like, you don't have to go into depth, but at least f- train, start training students to s- Mm[00:29:43] Rinchen: you know, to, to think with some intellectual rigor. [00:29:46] Manisha: And stories also. Mm. I think when you're kids and if you're reading a lot of stories or even, like, you're hearing stories, it really helps you evolve a sort of a personality that will not accept things easily, I think. [00:30:00] That's true. So yeah, read from childhood.[00:30:03] Abhinandan: Right [00:30:06] Rinchen: JLM2, right? [00:30:07] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:30:09] Rinchen: My name is Adil, and the rest I have already said in my Charcha letter, saving a few precious words here. Abhinandan, after all that praise, I briefly hope for a subscriber discount, but I suppose some principles are truly non-negotiable. I'm a medium pacer, but hardly follow cricket.[00:30:25] Rinchen: Football is the opposite. I watch it and rarely play. I also share your [00:30:30] concern about celebrity culture. Public admiration should come with some public responsibility, yet too often the distance between the two keeps growing. Perhaps that is why independent journalism matters more than ever. In a society grappling with deep inequalities, polarization, and old social hierarchies, asking difficult questions is not a luxury, but a necessity.[00:30:49] Rinchen: And the Earth too has begun asking questions of us. The heatwaves across continents feel like, feel like, feel less like anomalies and more like warning bells that we ignore at our own peril. [00:30:59] Abhinandan: [00:31:00] Well, Adil- Hmm ... I'm guessing the praise was in the Haftah letter, Charcha letter, 'cause it's not here. Hmm. [00:31:05] Rinchen: But - ... [00:31:06] Abhinandan: but you know what?[00:31:07] Abhinandan: Why don't you, um- Write to me abhinandansekhri@gmail. Honestly, tell me what you do. And if you are a student and you're very early in your career and 550 bucks is a lot of money for you, happy to give you a discount, but we'll send you the stickers nevertheless, abhinandansekhri@gmail.com. But if you can earn enough, and if you are having a drink or, you know, [00:31:30] watching a film-- I watched this one by the way.[00:31:31] Abhinandan: Have you guys watched "Odyssey"? [00:31:34] Raman: Yeah. [00:31:34] Manisha: No. I'm watching it [00:31:35] Raman: tomorrow, day after tomorrow. It's [00:31:35] Manisha: pretty long, no? [00:31:36] Raman: I did. Sir, [00:31:38] Abhinandan: So, aapne woh jo classic hai woh Homer's ka, bas usi ka usne kiya hai koshish. Puri ki puri, uh, copy ki hai. Matlab itna us [00:31:42] Raman: par dham-zham naach-gaana hua, maine dekhi, maine kaha ab kuch hoga, ab kuch hoga, kuch sala hua hi nahi.[00:31:42] Raman: Ramayan, Ramayan ki tarah hai woh matlab usme you have that Sita and the- Haan woh Gandeev uska nikala. Ramayan hi to hai. Mujhe toh samajh nahi aayi. So I, I was,[00:32:00] [00:32:04] Raman: I was thinking if, if Valmiki had written Ramayan around that time, did he copy that or what? I mean- Or this was copied by Valmiki. Please. Valmiki was- Or [00:32:11] Abhinandan: they copied Valmiki.[00:32:15] Abhinandan: Is the OG. Or they copied Valmiki. Or they copied Va- kyunki Gandeev chadana, wo pura dhwans todna but- Haan. Lekin mujhe, you know, at the end of the day I went to the family said, "What do you think of it?" Matlab mujhe, I was like feeling pressured to say, "Oh my God," you know, because I've read so much. But woh feeling ubhari nahi.[00:32:29] Abhinandan: Sorry, coming to [00:32:30] Jelam to Ryan. So please, if you are spending 1,200 rupees on an IMAX experience- [00:32:35] Abhinandan: Hmm ... [00:32:35] Abhinandan: then I'm afraid I cannot subsidize your subscription. But if you're a young student, glad to. Please mail me abhinandansekhri@gmail.com. So w- why is it supposed to be a big deal, the film? [00:32:47] Rinchen: Uh- [00:32:48] Abhinandan: Just so I know when I go on Offer and Awesome I should not start a little trade.[00:32:50] Abhinandan: It's very [00:32:51] Raman: grand, uh, I mean- [00:32:52] Rinchen: I mean, Christopher [00:32:53] Raman: Nolan does it ... way- Christopher Nolan ... when you watch it on the, this thing- Also- ... it's on IMAX. So it's very grand [00:33:00] scale. Scale is very grand. I mean, it takes you to, I mean, he has tried to create a world of, a different world. So, so, I mean, uh, where, uh, uh- A viewer can may immerse into it.[00:33:13] Raman: Yes, in terms of stories, it doesn't hold you [00:33:16] Abhinandan: Na, mujhe toh [00:33:18] Manisha: nahi hold ki. Apparently it's, it's also, this giving a slight twist to the original, right? Haan. Like there's like a different take on. [00:33:23] Rinchen: Mm. [00:33:24] Manisha: Read some, uh, articles on it na, then you'll understand. Ha. [00:33:27] Abhinandan: Okay. I should read. [00:33:30] [00:33:31] Manisha: Breaking down. Okay. [00:33:32] Rinchen: Prakash Iyer says, um, "In the context of post-elections Bengal discussion, Abhinandan is right that the world has changed since the 1980s, but it hasn't much changed, I suppose, since 2021.[00:33:45] Rinchen: We know there were murders back then after elections, allegedly by TMC of their opponents." [00:33:50] Manisha: Mm. "[00:33:50] Rinchen: Manisha referred to it in humor that BJP can argue that throwing eggs or humiliation is hardly as bad as murders, but there's a serious point there." [00:33:58] Manisha: No, haan, I [00:34:00] was also [00:34:00] Rinchen: being serious. It wasn't humorous. Mm.[00:34:01] Rinchen: "Socio-political changes usually happen in excruciating increments. As much as it might be frustrating for elite idealists in their safe cocoons, no murders is quote unquote progress." [00:34:12] Abhinandan: Mm. "[00:34:12] Rinchen: It's understandable that we desire, desire to be closer to Western democracy level of political behavior, though not like Jan 6, 2020."[00:34:20] Abhinandan: Yeah. "[00:34:21] Rinchen: But that le- level hardly exists in any aspect of Indian society or politics. This is not to say that we should be satisfied, but just that point of 2021 or [00:34:30] history of West Bengal political violence by the usual suspects is not an unreasonable position." [00:34:35] Raman: Hmm. [00:34:35] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:34:36] Rinchen: I think we understand that. Ready?[00:34:37] Abhinandan: Basically, we are having a discussion on the, you know, the videos of eggs- Yeah ... being thrown. [00:34:41] Rinchen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So [00:34:42] Abhinandan: Manish said, going by- [00:34:44] Rinchen: That's that ... [00:34:45] Abhinandan: the kind of violence that happened, this is a, a- [00:34:48] Rinchen: A climb down ... scale [00:34:48] Abhinandan: down. It's a scale down. [00:34:50] Manisha: Punit says, "Manish may be... Manisha maybe should drop the line, 'It was an action-packed news week,' while reading headlines.[00:34:58] Manisha: When Modi's India's [00:35:00] prime minister and Trump is US president, every week is action-packed news." [00:35:02] Abhinandan: True. [00:35:03] Manisha: This is about the NL app. "I installed the new iOS update last week. When I clicked to listen to the Hafta, the app was playing Charcha, and this week when I clicked to listen to Charcha, Hafta is playing." So all the way reading this now, but we copy-pasted this and sent it- [00:35:16] Abhinandan: Yeah[00:35:16] Manisha: real time- This is fixed ... when it came. Yeah. [00:35:18] Abhinandan: SNA, uh, c- this is a clearly known one, but do mail us and tell us if it's working fine for you because we have, uh, released an update. "[00:35:25] Manisha: Hi, team," says Anant Chaturvedi. "I recently watched- Yeah ... the Delhi Union debate [00:35:30] on the motion, Is Indian News Dead? And found myself agreeing with many of Abhinandan's arguments.[00:35:34] Manisha: What surprised me was Suhasini's position, which felt disconnected from how most Indians actually consume news. Much as I admire The Wire and News Laundry, they're not mainstream in the colloquial sense. Visit almost any middle class household and you're far more likely to find Aaj Tak, Times Now, Amar Ujala, Dainik Jagran that, than independent outlets.[00:35:52] Manisha: Redefining mainstream media to strengthen an argument weakened it instead. Given that journalists have faced intimidation and even been killed, calling this the [00:36:00] best time to be a journalist also felt tone deaf. I do think mainstream television news is in decline as audiences grow wary of re- relentless political praise while everyday problems worsen.[00:36:10] Manisha: Even so, I doubt the propaganda ecosystem will disappear anytime soon because powerful interests have every incentive to keep it alive." Jess. [00:36:19] Abhinandan: So clearly this mail by Amitabh, uh, sorry, this mail- Anant ... by Anant must be several weeks old because I, I think Anant, this protest, the CJP [00:36:30] movement, has very dramatically compressed what would happen in maybe a year or two- Hmm[00:36:36] Abhinandan: into a month. [00:36:37] Josy promo: Hmm. [00:36:38] Abhinandan: The irrelevance of legacy media- [00:36:40] Manisha: Yeah ... [00:36:40] Abhinandan: was demonstrated by this movement, and while you're right that individually, like, uh, Aaj Tak or Amar Ujala has market size, but all legacy put together and all the, you know, independent ones put together, it's not like a- Like a given case, it's a [00:37:00] 80/20 ball position type scene.[00:37:01] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:37:01] Abhinandan: It's a little closer, I would think. Mm. But, um, but yeah, I think things have changed dramatically in the last month. Don't, don't you think? So, I mean, the, the way news spread using Instagram because of the Gen Z. [00:37:15] Rinchen: Yeah, 100%. [00:37:17] Abhinandan: The c- um, legacy couldn't keep up, yeah. [00:37:19] Rinchen: They couldn't. [00:37:19] Abhinandan: They had to fall in line. Look at our wonderful, uh, reporter Avdesh's story.[00:37:23] Rinchen: Mm. [00:37:24] Abhinandan: That story made everybody come to that where did that, you know, rock-laden truck come from? [00:37:30] NDTV was doing a discussion of, although they were trying to spin it. [00:37:33] Raman: Yeah. [00:37:33] Abhinandan: Of course, they didn't want to outright say that news laundry. They said police has given this version. Police is saying it's not connected.[00:37:39] Abhinandan: They did not say that we are doing any investigation because, of course, NDTV doesn't have the resource to. They have no money. Adani ji ka waise is such a loss. They were just saying police's statement is this, police's statement is this. So it was, uh, yeah. [00:37:53] Rinchen: No, also, I mean, there's a story that we did, one of our interns did about working-class men [00:38:00] who had come to the pr- who had attended the protest.[00:38:03] Rinchen: I mean, these guys, and not from Delhi, from, from like various states- Mm ... from like Haryana, up in, uh, Rajasthan, whatever all these- Uttar Pradesh ... Uttar Pradesh and all these areas, and they followed this pr- they came there after seeing reels of this protest on Instagram. So n- I mean, forget like TV and- Mm[00:38:20] Rinchen: and when, uh, also another point I would like to make is when, uh, uh, Dharmendra Pradhan, uh, issued his resignation, uh, I think Manisha, you had pointed out to [00:38:30] check out the live numbers on the U- on the Republic live YouTube stream. [00:38:34] Raman: Mm. [00:38:34] Rinchen: It was like 357 or 320- Yeah ... something like that, and like nobody was watching it, and they were just like...[00:38:40] Rinchen: So you're correct. [00:38:41] Raman: Initially- Who's that? ... initially TV media, I mean, was completely, they blacked out. Yeah. I mean, first day, second day, I, I was also trying to watch, maybe I'll get something live. You had... And TV always jump to, you know, this kind of situation where you have lots of people. Mm. You automatically, you have a [00:39:00] stage, and you can just show so many people, so you can get, uh, you know, good ATP.[00:39:05] Raman: But, but they, in this particular case, they... But y- I must say that newspapers picked up. [00:39:10] Rinchen: Mm, [00:39:11] Raman: mm. Newspapers, uh, uh, I mean, HT and Times of India also [00:39:17] Manisha: picked up. Actually, to me, the defining story was Vijeta's story in The Hindu. 100%. Mm, [00:39:20] Rinchen: mm. [00:39:21] Manisha: The fact that she nailed the pellet gun story, w- despite Delhi Police repeatedly saying- [00:39:27] Rinchen: Yeah, repeated [00:39:28] Manisha: denials[00:39:28] Manisha: uh, but she stuck to it. She got all the [00:39:30] facts on it. So that is something that'll go far. I mean, so yeah, I feel newspapers still kind of hold it up. And [00:39:35] Rinchen: the abuse she got for that story on X was- Yeah, yeah ... I mean, my goodness. I mean, from like... [00:39:40] Manisha: And that's gonna have consequences because- Yeah ... it's in the court.[00:39:43] Manisha: Yeah. It's gonna have real, like- Yeah ... uh, although the Supreme Court today said it's okay. In exceptional circumstances you can use pellet guns, which is ridiculous, yeah. Somebody had, I think it was, who had said? Aakar Patel or somebody that instead of solving Kashmir, they'll make the rest of India like Kashmir.[00:39:59] Abhinandan: Hmm. Yeah. [00:40:00] [00:40:00] Manisha: This is something actually- [00:40:00] Abhinandan: I think it's so [00:40:01] Manisha: much of it is- [00:40:02] Abhinandan: Yeah ... [00:40:02] Manisha: you know. [00:40:03] Abhinandan: It had been said a long time ago that they will not make Kashmir the rest of India, they'll make rest of India Kashmir. [00:40:09] Manisha: Yeah, yeah. In terms of press, in terms of police control. Mm. It's just... Mohsin says, "Hi, Abhinandan. It's really frustrating.[00:40:17] Manisha: The new update on the app sucks. I want to pay to keep news free, but since last week the update happened when I played Hafta 591, 590 was played, and today the same thing is happening with 591." [00:40:27] Abhinandan: So Mohsin's complaint is the same one as the earlier. "[00:40:29] Manisha: [00:40:30] Apologies for the rant. I hope it'll be fixed or I'll just become a silent subscriber."[00:40:34] Abhinandan: Mohsin- [00:40:34] Manisha: He's just very upset, yaar. Please fix kar do. [00:40:36] Abhinandan: This is fixed. This particular glitch is fixed. Aur koi glitch ho to bataiye. Abhinandansekhri@gmail.com. The next big project we will undertake is fixing the app. [00:40:48] Manisha: Rohit Kulkarni says, "I watched two seasons of 'Freedom at Midnight' web series. In the series they omit a lot of details, but particularly they don't mention VHP, RSS, Savarkar.[00:40:55] Manisha: They don't even name Nathuram Godse. It frames Gandhi's [00:41:00] assassination solely as a reaction to the 55 crore fund released to Pakistan's fast, while ignoring prior attempts on him. It portrays communal violence as one-sided, like it's a retaliation of Muslim communalism from Hindus. There's no Hindu communalism in the entire series.[00:41:13] Manisha: Nehru is portrayed as always a sidelining, undermining Patel. There's no role of Mr. Ambedkar except a footnote at the end. The subtle sanitization of history feels far more dangerous than overt propaganda like 'Durandhar'." Thus, I feel we will become like Pakistan, where the so-called liberal voice is [00:41:30] also center right or communal, and there'll be no real reform in any space, political or social.[00:41:35] Manisha: Very dire Bhavishyavani. I hope events of this week have changed your mind. [00:41:42] Raman: Kartik [00:41:43] Manisha: Nair says, "Hi team, hope you're doing well. This is my first time writing to you because I've always appreciated the excellent job you do with Anil Hafta. I want to request you to cover the recent Shalimar Gaon demolition, the Ashok Nagar commercial market issue, and the broader pa- pattern, pattern of demolitions and evictions [00:42:00] carried out by the Delhi government and MCD."[00:42:02] Manisha: We really want to. Y- we've been on this for about a month, but then something or the other happens, and then it just gets- Yeah. But this, like every meeting, we discuss this. Yeah. These actions have left many middle, lower income families fearing the loss of their homes and livelihood instead of being offered fair rehabilitation.[00:42:18] Manisha: Delhi Gymkhana issue highlighted questions around property rights. For one section of society, these cases raise similar concerns for ordinary citizens and deserve equal attention. Uh, I absolutely agree with you, and we will get down to it [00:42:30] now, come hail or high water or another protest. Yeah. We will just get down to this.[00:42:34] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:42:35] Manisha: Bharat Ramchandra says... Bharat, not Bharat. "Hi, NL team. Govind stated that solar power generated has to be used only during the day. Has he not heard of battery storages? I understand transporting it to different parts is difficult and requires high initial costs, but there are so many different applications that can be done, especially for industrial or commercial building users.[00:42:58] Manisha: No one challenged Govind on this [00:43:00] item, which was surprising." [00:43:01] Abhinandan: Actually, um, just- "[00:43:02] Manisha: Haan, kyunki raat ko lightein bhi toh jala sakte hai." [00:43:05] Abhinandan: You can't, you can s- sure, batteries can, but the, but if you're talking about scale of cities- Yeah ... you cannot store that. The kind of infrastructure you need to store that kind of bijli, one doesn't have, which is why it has to be used up.[00:43:17] Abhinandan: It's like grid is an efficient way. Not just for India, even other countries. After, you know, which, that is also expensive, but having a grid system so that whatever cannot be used is sold to another state [00:43:30] is the solution. You cannot store that amount of electricity in any sensible economic way is what I've understood.[00:43:37] Manisha: Hmm. Mohit says, "I heard your discussion regarding election coverage, where institutional decay and the rise of populist leaders around the world were mentioned. In lots of these discussions, there's a tendency to look at Donald Trump, Boris Johnson, and either gloat or feel a sense of being in the same boat as democratic standards decline worldwide.[00:43:56] Manisha: In my opinion, India does not have much in common with this decline. [00:44:00] In contrast, India's problems have more in common with many neighboring nations, including Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka. Here, religion and majoritarianism play a fundamental role, while media and wealthy tycoons tag along for the ride.[00:44:12] Manisha: In the West, it's quite the opposite. I hope that Media Rumble will involve more voices from neighboring countries rather than from the West, whose commentators already have enough avenues to voice their opinions and reach Indian audiences." [00:44:24] Abhinandan: Y- yeah, you're absolutely right. It's just that, um, [00:44:30] the-- we wanted to do a media rumble with, you know, guests from Bangladesh and Pakistan.[00:44:37] Abhinandan: Getting visas for them is not easy, yeah. [00:44:39] Manisha: From Nepal we can get. [00:44:41] Abhinandan: Nepal we can get. Uh, now I don't know 'cause now Nepal model, Nepal model is also part of tool tip. Yeah, But in the past we have had huge problems getting people visas. Pakistan ..., Bangladesh is also not easy. Um, so yeah, and I mean, I, I don't know, maybe Philippines, [00:45:00] Indonesia, I mean media is not really something that- No, I mean South [00:45:02] Manisha: Asia would be great, I think.[00:45:03] Manisha: Yeah. Somebody from Bangladesh, [00:45:05] Rinchen: Nepal. We can definitely get someone-- we can definitely get people from Sri Lanka and Nepal. I think that's quite possible whereas- [00:45:09] Abhinandan: Sri Lanka is possible, although I met, um, someone who's in the news media in Sri Lanka. He says Sri Lanka media is pretty much dead. [00:45:18] Manisha: It's very [00:45:21] Abhinandan: authoritarian there.[00:45:21] Abhinandan: He said Rajapaksa, there's, there's... You can't-- It's not a serious media [00:45:24] Manisha: landscape. Nepal would be nice actually. We should get someone. [00:45:27] Abhinandan: Hm. [00:45:28] Manisha: Manish says, "Hi NL team. [00:45:30] I recently renewed my subscription. Last year on choosing this option, we were provided with RSS feed for podcast. However, with the current subscription that option is gone.[00:45:38] Manisha: This is the NL-TNM joint subscription. Please provide RSS feedback as your application is very bad for listening to a podcast." So- "I don't consume TNM coverage but still opted for joint subscription just to have RSS feed as last year." [00:45:53] Abhinandan: Okay. Um, I think it's only available to actually Gamechangers, but I have escalated your request, [00:46:00] Manish.[00:46:00] Manisha: Satvik Banerjee says, "Cheng Lei, a reporter in CGTN, stayed in prison for over 1,000 days without evidence. Media tycoon Jimmy Lai languishes in jail for 20 years' term. What's wrong with Indian media journos and tycoons that they can't stand up?" [00:46:16] Abhinandan: Well, I, I think it's not just tycoons, it's, it's an Indian thing among the privileged.[00:46:24] Abhinandan: They are-- The price they're willing to pay is just very, very [00:46:30] measly for anything. They're too used to having it their way. Hmm. [00:46:36] Manisha: Ritika Ratnu says, "Indian diplomats are some of the best in the world. Why? Perhaps the MEA diplomat was having an off day. We all do. It's still revealing that on an off day, the instinct is to be loud and wag a finger rather than humility.[00:46:51] Manisha: Jaishankar is pro- prolific. He speaks posh, can raise eyebrows, tip his head, curl his lips into a faint smile at the right time, but talks like a bully." [00:47:00] He's completely disappeared, yeah. [00:47:01] Abhinandan: Mm. Everyone's disappeared. Yeah. [00:47:03] Manisha: This whole, uh- [00:47:04] Abhinandan: Hmm ... [00:47:05] Manisha: PM holding a press conference. Perhaps Indians do not feel the loss of PM holding a press conference because questioning leaders was never really part of their daily lives.[00:47:12] Manisha: It was performed by someone else. Having studied at two top-tier engineering colleges in India and now studying at a Swedish university, I'm amazed at the horizontal eng- engagement here. All students, not just the council, have regular Q&A sessions with the directors. If surveys indicate a course is problematic, the professors are answerable.[00:47:29] Manisha: [00:47:30] True demos engagement. [00:47:32] Abhinandan: So I think Ritika has listed out things that Anand had said regarding the press conference. Mm. So these are not her views. She's quoting what she heard on the Hafta, and she's- Shaking her head clearly. Hmm. Anish Srivastava says, "Dear News Roundup team, I have a specific question for Abhinandan regarding the ongoing Google AI Gemini ad campaign during the IPL.[00:47:53] Abhinandan: The current ads seem to actively dumb down viewers, especially school and college students." Well, how much can you dumb [00:48:00] down someone who's watching IPL? Burn, burn. Bring on the trolls. "For instance, we see Ishaan Khatter's character relying on AI just to figure out how to talk to his girlfriend, or the KKR team using AI to pinpoint what is wrong with the photograph trying to replicate a classic SRK pose when the reference photo is right in front of them.[00:48:20] Abhinandan: Another ad even depicts a character asking AI if Vastu can help her boyfriend's IPL team win, actively promoting pseudoscience. There are so many examples. [00:48:30] Instead of showcasing AI as a tool for complex work, skill building, or scientific research, these ads promote absolute dependence on tech for basic human common sense.[00:48:37] Abhinandan: These patterns are already widely mocked as regressive memes in the West. How can we challenge or counter this deliberate dumbing down of the next generation? Is there any way to critically analyze the long-term cognitive impact of such massive ad campaigns?" Hmm. What do you think, sir? Is there any way to examine how a particular campaign impacted society?[00:49:00] [00:49:00] Abhinandan: I guess by the sales of the product. [00:49:02] Raman: No, a lot has been written. I mean, uh, um, in fact, if you see, uh, Indian sociologists, uh, they have written about it. [00:49:11] Abhinandan: I mean, I, I haven't seen this. Have you seen this ad campaign? No, I haven't. AI [00:49:15] Manisha: Gemini. I just don't watch any- [00:49:17] Rinchen: I don't watch IPL, so ... [00:49:18] Manisha: so I don't-- I miss out on all the ads, actually.[00:49:20] Manisha: Mm. I haven't watched TV in a very long time. But ads [00:49:22] Abhinandan: do come even on YouTube. Mm. But this ad has been circulated- No, nahi aata hai. Mujhe woh Lux [00:49:24] Manisha: aur- ... I haven't seen it ... Ramdev ke aate [00:49:29] Abhinandan: hai [00:49:30] kyunki [00:49:30] Manisha: main TV nahi dekhti But I have YouTube Premium, so Tumhe Ramdev ke ads aata hai? Mere pass waise Premium hai toh mujhe nahi aate, but jab bhi aate hai it's more like Lux, Cozy underwear and Ramdev and all.[00:49:36] Manisha: But I- Because I'm watching TV ... have not seen [00:49:38] Raman: that ad. What is this ad about, [00:49:38] Abhinandan: Abhinandan? I haven't seen this ad, sir. I, I... The ad that I just got-- have seen about a million times is Abhay Deol- [00:49:47] Abhinandan: Mm ... [00:49:47] Abhinandan: and one girl driving- Oh, yeah. ... on a frozen because that was the pre-roll ad for the World Cup. For the World Cup. So you fucking had to watch it 100 times a day [00:49:56] Manisha: But actually cricket match, I mean, ek time ads used to be [00:50:00] a thing, na?[00:50:00] Manisha: Yeah. Like- [00:50:01] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:50:01] Manisha: The ads that'll play during a cricket match. They used to be good also. [00:50:05] Abhinandan: Okay. Ads. Can you, can you tell me one of your favorite ads, Raman sir? You guys also think. Do you have a, one of your favorite, which- So many ... which, which had, like, an impact, like that's a clever ad? I [00:50:16] Raman: mostly [00:50:16] Manisha: have- A clever-[00:50:17] Raman: these, uh, one-liners of Amul wh- which comes on the board. Uh- [00:50:20] Abhinandan: Not anymore. Now they're all sucking up to Modi, but there was a time when, yeah, right. [00:50:24] Raman: Uh, as in when something is happening- It was very current and quick ... during the football World Cup, so they used to come up with one [00:50:30] good, uh, one-liners, you know.[00:50:31] Raman: Yeah, Amul. So that I used to like. [00:50:33] Manisha: Taneesha? One of my favorite is the Happydent ad by McCann Erickson, uh, Mumbai. [00:50:37] Abhinandan: Those people lighting with the- [00:50:38] Manisha: Because it's just so ridiculous. But it was so... The song is so nice. The idea is so crazy, and it's so beautifully shot. I used to love watching that ad as a kid.[00:50:48] Manisha: Mm. [00:50:49] Rinchen: There was one, uh, I don't remember, uh, which is... Uh, I mean, I don't remember exactly the brand, but it is this plywood, I think, where is this, uh, this Sardar family is driving a bus in [00:51:00] South India. And then this kid suddenly, like there's a bus to stop, and he goes into this, like, big haveli. And then it's basically like how this, uh, I think it's a table or a chair that has lasted for generations, and he recognize it.[00:51:14] Rinchen: So he's- Ah ... [00:51:16] Manisha: he's [00:51:16] Rinchen: coming at the end and- That's a really funny one. Yeah ... it's a really funny one. Uh- [00:51:18] Manisha: And he speaks... He [00:51:19] Rinchen: starts speaking- He goes to this [00:51:19] Manisha: old woman- [00:51:20] Rinchen: Yeah ... and speaks. Starts speaking in Tamil like, you know, she- Oh, yeah, [00:51:23] Abhinandan: I've seen this ad. Yeah. This is a very cool ad. [00:51:25] Rinchen: This is a very cool ad. Forget [00:51:26] Abhinandan: which essentially- Which also is- You know-[00:51:27] Abhinandan: now this is also promoting, uh, uh, [00:51:30] pseudoscience and- Science ... rebirth. Huh? But- [00:51:33] Raman: I was listening, uh, uh, you know, a podcast where they were discussing about the ad world, how it is shrinking. Uh, so earlier we used to have big, big ads- Yeah. Mm ... uh, you know, where even, even the, this politician, they used to have those, uh, people.[00:51:50] Raman: But now this, in this podcast they were saying now the big brands, they are making their own team, small- [00:51:56] Abhinandan: Yeah, because now they, they use the money to, for, uh, [00:52:00] distribution, not for production. [00:52:01] Raman: Yeah, yeah. [00:52:02] Abhinandan: The Prahlad Kakkad ad As[00:52:07] Manisha: a kid I really liked, uh, "Doodh, doodh, doodh." Yeah. It made, like, milk so look so tasty. It w- even though it was so ridiculous. Like you hate drink- Disgusting. [00:52:15] Abhinandan: It's the worst [00:52:16] Manisha: thing ... but it just made it look so nice. You wanted to have like, wow, doodh. [00:52:20] Abhinandan: You know, one of my- Na achcha hua ... favorite ad campaigns is Amul Ma- Amul Macho Kachhe.[00:52:25] Abhinandan: "Ye to bada toying hai." Oh, God. Why I found it fascinating- ... 'cause each time I used to see that ad, [00:52:30] I was like, "Who the fuck thought of this?" You know, because, uh, you, you know the- Yeah. So, you know, it had various versions. There was one, this woman, it's just a mid-shot. She's washing clothes on a ghaut. Yeah, [00:52:42] Abhinandan: I know [00:52:42] Abhinandan: this.[00:52:42] Abhinandan: So she's like shaking, you know, vigorously, so it could have various meanings, and she's really enjoying whatever she's doing, and then she holds up- Toying is suggests that the elasticity of the chaddi, you know? Then there's a banda. So I always see that and I was like, you know- ... [00:53:00] how did the creative director go to the client and said, "Sir, I have a campaign for you."[00:53:04] Abhinandan: That client is sitting. I'm visualizing in my head what is happening in that boardroom, 'cause I have presented to clients. And the creative director is saying, " Yeh toh bada toying hai," is the line. And the guy saying, "What does yeh toh bada toying hai mean?" It means that the elasticity of your kacha is very toying.[00:53:24] Abhinandan: Oh, yeah. It's a fucking fascinating concept. I think it's, it's a work [00:53:27] Raman: of genius. I, I remember when [00:53:30] Amul, uh, this Mamta had one, you know, some Amul had come up with, you know, the even, even, even when the party wins he used to come up- they used to come up with, with some very funny ads. Amul- [00:53:42] Manisha: There's that also, beta sweater pehno.[00:53:44] Rinchen: Mm. [00:53:44] Manisha: They're going through a train and then suddenly she starts putting a sweater on a guy- Yeah ... and screaming. But I don't know what that ad was for. [00:53:50] Rinchen: So the ad I was talking about is Greenply. Yeah. Greenply ka this thing, the young Sikh boy with [00:53:56] Manisha: the thing coming up with it. [00:53:56] Rinchen: I think it [00:53:57] Manisha: was really sweet.[00:53:57] Manisha: Yeah. This one was damn sweet, I remember it. Simply because [00:54:00] he starts, breaks into this very serious- [00:54:02] Rinchen: He breaks into character. Yeah. Just starts speaking Tamil, everyone's confused. Oh my God. [00:54:07] Raman: And there is something, uh, I mean, I don't know, uh, it's not a professional ad, but I remember traveling by train or even when you're driving.[00:54:17] Raman: So my Mumbai friend had come, so there was one, uh, lady friend, so she said, "Ramanji, shighra patan kya hota [00:54:30] hai?" Hashmi se mile. Yeah. Ah. So if you go any highway, you have Hashmi [00:54:32] Abhinandan: se mile. Yeah, those are th- we used to do a lot of these jokes on Highway No Plate, which always used to get cut out. 'Cause I mean, whenever you're going between cities, I don't know if it's like that, but back in the day it was- It's still like that, [00:54:42] Manisha: you know, the movie you got, Sex Doctors.[00:54:43] Manisha: They still did it. [00:54:43] Abhinandan: The, like, big bawaseer. [00:54:46] Manisha: Mm. [00:54:47] Raman: Bawaseer. [00:54:47] Abhinandan: So you know the, so, so we always [00:54:50] Manisha: do- Bawaseer and sex doctors. Yeah. Like, the whole of India is grappling with these two- Or, or [00:54:54] Abhinandan: rishte hi rishte. I don't know if it still happens. Okay, then Arvind Srinivasa [00:55:00] says, "Hi NL team, I'm a long time follower and evangelizer of NL."[00:55:04] Abhinandan: Thank you, Arvind. [00:55:05] Abhinandan: Yay. [00:55:06] Abhinandan: Appreciate it. We need more like you. In fact, you can evangelize now with these stickers. I will r- repeat. You can scan this QR code. If you're already a subscriber, you will get the sticker for free, just pay for the courier charges. If you're not a subscriber, you can subscribe now, and you will get a discount and this sticker set.[00:55:24] Abhinandan: Your programming has consistently improved, and your collaboration with News Minute has made you even better. I have critical feedback [00:55:30] regarding your marketing videos. Your reels shots are just vertically put clips from podcasts. Even interesting clips get boring and devoid of context without any B-rolls, visual cues.[00:55:41] Abhinandan: This clip is a good example where non-Hafta listeners would barely understand what you're talking about. [00:55:45] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:55:45] Abhinandan: Good editing could have made it much more engaging Reports. Some of your reports and podcasts are the best in class. Nidhi's report in Hathras, Dilip, LTA Punjab are capable of having a huge audience.[00:55:57] Abhinandan: They don't get nearly enough marketing. [00:56:00] Why not go around different podcast shows to promote it? Like Ronan Farrow's tour promoting Sam Altman article, or Mehdi Hasan taking every opportunity to promote Zeteo. I'm staying mad since that's the only way. Yes. That's a lovely letter. Arvind, I will save this.[00:56:15] Abhinandan: We are having a workshop for our promo team, for our producers sometime next week. I shall definitely include this. Amit, can you please do me a favor and cut and paste this on a document? Thank you. You can mail it to me later. Dheeraj says, [00:56:30] "Hi everyone. Thanks for what you do. Something odd is happening in Pune with tree cutting everywhere, including inside Commissioner Bungalow.[00:56:36] Abhinandan: Recent spate of murders around IT Park, et cetera. Maybe there's a story here." So I don't know. Dheeraj, you're saying that there's a connection between tree cutting and spate of murders? [00:56:45] Rinchen: I think he's talking about different events. [00:56:47] Abhinandan: Oh, like things are just- [00:56:48] Rinchen: Yeah. [00:56:49] Abhinandan: See, one thing even I've noticed, l- noticed in Delhi, uh, maybe it was happening, it wasn't reported.[00:56:53] Abhinandan: I could be wrong. Like this guy beat an auto driver to death in Delhi, in [00:57:00] main... I passed that phase so often. No one stopped. Like I was being battered to death, a cab and an auto. Then these minors stabbed one fellow yesterday. Isn't it, Ashok, for standing up to, against harassment of, of a girl? Yes. I mean, Delhi, the rampant murder.[00:57:20] Abhinandan: Then there are these gangs in Delhi, which were there back in the day, but not for the last 25, 30 years. I don't know what's happening in Delhi also. But anyway, Dheeraj, I hear you, bro, because it's [00:57:30] happening in Delhi Regarding Anand's comment on letters episode, which structure to decide the Election Commission boss does Anand prefer?[00:57:38] Abhinandan: One with CGI, one without. Hafta began as a place to reveal biases, so where does Anand stand? Anand prefers to mention history of everything, what was before. But I can't remember when he mentioned history of caste or how a religion invented greatest tool of discrimination by birth, whose structure is so hard to fight due to its uniqueness while discussing caste related issues.[00:57:59] Abhinandan: [00:58:00] Otherwise, he always mentions historical bit to suggest it has been going on from even before Modi came to power. Well, I guess that is itself a revelation of bias, isn't it? Just like mine, but we shall communicate this to Anand. Then Ayush says, "You keep saying that football and basketball are different from cricket and require more effort, but the same reasoning water sports demand far more effort than either of them."[00:58:23] Abhinandan: I completely agree with you, Ayush. Mm. Completely agree. Swimming is the hardest of them all. Anyone who disagrees clearly [00:58:30] hasn't swum for more than an hour, and both football and basketball actually allow more leisure time than swimming or running. As for fitness, cricket does demand it. Sure, you can play without being especially fit, but that's true of every sport.[00:58:41] Abhinandan: Leisure play is okay as far as any sport goes. Point is, just because you can doesn't mean people at the highest levels of sport are doing it too. You really overlook the mental side of the sport. Cricket requires far more focus and concentration than people give it credit for. I'm spending way too much time on this debate.[00:58:58] Rinchen: Great letter. [00:58:58] Abhinandan: Ayush, not nearly [00:59:00] enough. We will make you spend some more time. When the news cycle allows, we will get back to this debate with all, in all seriousness. I [00:59:05] Rinchen: think you should call all the subscribers who've had an issue with your cricket takes and just have a roundtable with them. But the only- Maybe this can be a separate company.[00:59:10] Rinchen: Yeah. We have a- We have a different [00:59:12] Abhinandan: company[00:59:16] Manisha: a [00:59:17] Abhinandan: separate private limited company- Private limited ... which is just debating is cricket- Yeah ... is cricket a sport or not private limited. [00:59:25] Manisha: Yeah. [00:59:26] Abhinandan: What's your revenue model? Outrage. Yeah. We just, we [00:59:30] just say this every week. [00:59:31] Rinchen: Yeah. [00:59:31] Abhinandan: People get pissed off, and we like- Monetize the outrage. That's- You can [00:59:34] Manisha: have some merchandise from all the letters that you get.[00:59:38] Manisha: You can go stand with banners out cricket matches every time. [00:59:42] Rinchen: Cricket is done. [00:59:43] Manisha: Can be a cult, man. [00:59:45] Abhinandan: Who's with me? Who's on this cult? Manan says, "Hey team, an important thing that's not getting media attention is the Anthropic US government order blocking access to best AI models of foreign nationals. It's very concerning.[00:59:57] Abhinandan: Also, there are so many workers being coerced or paid a little [01:00:00] bit to take their data using camera mounted on helmets. It's a problem out in the open for us. Our data gets used, but we are gated out from benefiting even if we're willing to pay. There should be a law, something that ensures free unlimited access to any model made out of data that someone has contributed directly or indirectly."[01:00:17] Abhinandan: Manan, I think this is something the world is grappling with, and I think since you wrote this mail on the Anthropic, at least- Mm ... the news cycle has moved forward. There is some developments that have happened. Meanwhile, there is also that one agent that went rogue- [01:00:29] Raman: [01:00:30] Mm ... [01:00:30] Abhinandan: and tried to hack into other systems.[01:00:33] Abhinandan: Yes, and I've been listening to a lot of podcasts around this as well. Clearly regulation around this is coming. It's inevitable. It can't not. [01:00:41] Raman: Yeah. Today there is a report that I think Anthropic, uh, they have hacked lots of books. Mm. Even the, uh, you know, the very rare books- [01:00:50] Abhinandan: Mm ... [01:00:50] Raman: are available on An- uh, Anthropic.[01:00:53] Raman: So, so the writers are criticizing it So I think you're right, some law is gonna come [01:00:59] Abhinandan: It will [01:01:00] definitely. [01:01:00] Raman: Uh-huh. [01:01:01] Abhinandan: This is by Rushi Jetley. "Dear Haftaa team, I was slightly disappointed about the discussion on Modi and therefore Gujarat. The discussion Gujarat farmers being oppressed currently was not discussed at all.[01:01:11] Abhinandan: This is very interesting topic, especially since there is going to be Gujarat assembly election in the near future." Mm. Mm. In fact, we are thinking of sending one of our- [01:01:19] Manisha: Yeah, reporters wants to be stationed in Gujarat in the run-up to elections. So before that maybe like- [01:01:26] Abhinandan: We'll have full-time [01:01:26] Manisha: presence there[01:01:26] Manisha: eight, nine months. So we'll, we will have someone there full time. [01:01:30] [01:01:30] Abhinandan: Yeah. I've always loved the name Jetley because of Dil Hai Ki Manta Nahi. Now let's see your film trivia. So why, have you guys seen this? One of my favorite [01:01:39] Manisha: films. I have, but I don't remember who Jetley was. I [01:01:42] Raman: remember, [01:01:43] Abhinandan: yeah. Jetley Raghu Jetley was Aamir Khan's name.[01:01:46] Josy promo: Oh. [01:01:47] Manisha: What a peculiar name. Raghu is okay, but Jetley is a weird name [01:01:51] Abhinandan: to give. So Raghu Jetley was the, he was a photographer. Mm. And there was this one scene where he, they are getting away from these goons, and he's supposed to pretend to faint. [01:01:59] Abhinandan: [01:02:00] Mm. [01:02:00] Abhinandan: And then as soon as they come, he's supposed to take her so that they can't kidnap her.[01:02:03] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:02:04] Abhinandan: But instead of pretending to faint, a rock hits him on the head, he actually faints. So when the goons are dragging her away, she's saying, "Raghu,"[01:02:15] Abhinandan: So [01:02:16] Abhinandan: that's why it's- [01:02:17] Rinchen: Seared into your- ... [01:02:17] Abhinandan: seared into my head. Yeah. I watched that film like four or five times. The days of watching films four or five times are gone. [01:02:23] Rinchen: No, I still- [01:02:23] Abhinandan: It's so [01:02:23] Rinchen: sad ... I still do it. [01:02:24] Abhinandan: You do? [01:02:25] Rinchen: Yeah, yeah, [01:02:25] Abhinandan: I still do it. Which one have you watched four or five [01:02:26] Rinchen: times? I s- I watch series four or five times, you know.[01:02:29] Rinchen: Mm. Entire, like, [01:02:30] series. So currently I'm- Manisha, [01:02:31] Abhinandan: please give him some more work. [01:02:34] Rinchen: I did my free time. [01:02:37] Abhinandan: Why do you have free time? Uh, tell me which ones. [01:02:40] Rinchen: Please don't take, take, take my weekends away. No, uh, so right now I'm re-watching this show called Person of Interest. Uh, it's on Netflix. [01:02:49] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:02:49] Rinchen: It's by Jonathan Nolan, Christopher Nolan's brother, I think.[01:02:53] Rinchen: And it's, uh, it's a show that, uh, sort of ran between 2011 to 2016. [01:03:00] And, uh- Wow, okay ... it's, it's a, but it's a fanta- it's a show that was way ahead of its time in terms of AI, surveillance. Um, it's a little bit of sci-fi, but a little bit of classic TV drama as well involved. So it's nice. It's an interesting show.[01:03:12] Rinchen: I would, I mean, I might- How [01:03:13] Abhinandan: do you re-watch a full series? There's ... I mean, a film I can understand 'cause it's just, like, a two-hour commitment, but series, you know the whole thing already. [01:03:19] Rinchen: Yeah, but there are, like- [01:03:21] Manisha: You wanna go back, like Mad Men I watched again. [01:03:22] Rinchen: Yeah. So the [01:03:23] Manisha: shows like Succession- Succession I watch all the time[01:03:25] Manisha: The Wire. Succession and Veep. [01:03:26] Rinchen: Yeah. [01:03:27] Manisha: I just watch whenever I have nothing to watch, I just watch it. Let me make [01:03:29] Abhinandan: a note of it. [01:03:30] I should watch Veep. Veep is- I haven't watched Veep ... spectacular. Mm. It is- This is ... What is it on? So good. It's on, uh, Netflix. It should be [01:03:31] Manisha: on HBO[01:03:38] Manisha: I think now. It should be on HBO, uh, [01:03:39] Rinchen: yeah. [01:03:39] Abhinandan: Right. [01:03:40] Manisha: Succession I watch, like, very- Political, political satire. Veep. Yeah.[01:03:45] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:03:46] Manisha: Mm. Um, Don't, uh, Look Up is a movie that I can watch again and again. Yeah. It is just so funny. [01:03:52] Rinchen: Mm. [01:03:52] Abhinandan: I can watch Interstellar- [01:03:53] Manisha: It's hilarious ... [01:03:53] Abhinandan: several times. [01:03:54] Rinchen: Gladiator, the first part [01:03:55] Manisha: I watch it- No, Interstellar [01:03:56] Rinchen: I can't watch ... the first part I'll watch it a million times. Gladiator and Training Day. [01:03:59] Abhinandan: [01:04:00] Deewar.[01:04:00] Abhinandan: Deewar. Deewar I watch. [01:04:01] Rinchen: Yeah. [01:04:02] Abhinandan: I watch scenes of [01:04:03] Rinchen: Deewar- [01:04:03] Abhinandan: Mm ... like, regularly. Even of the- I can watch Godfather. [01:04:06] Rinchen: Mm. The [01:04:07] Manisha: Godfather. Yeah, Godfather has a lot of [01:04:09] Rinchen: re-watch- First, first part especially. [01:04:11] Manisha: All the three [01:04:11] Rinchen: parts. Mm, that first part. And Godfathers. [01:04:13] Abhinandan: Even the one that, that Vivek Oberoi did of p- played, playing Modi, I can watch that.[01:04:19] Manisha: I haven't seen [01:04:19] Abhinandan: that. What [01:04:21] Manisha: was the name of that film? Even the first time I haven't [01:04:21] Rinchen: seen it. Oh, no. There's a dialogue he writes. Mm. Which one? [01:04:27] Abhinandan: Mm. How many times can you watch that film? Do let us know. [01:04:30] Then, uh, so those are all the backlog letters. Mm. I hope we have addressed every concern. This week's, I'll just read two or three since we do have a little bit of time.[01:04:41] Abhinandan: This is anonymous. "Hi. I generally wouldn't be anonymous, but I'm not an Indian citizen so I'm worried that commenting about this would negatively impact my overseas citizen of India status, even though what I'm going to say is mostly benign. Two things. Abhinandan mentioned that it was strategic error that they named the CJP Cockroach Janata Party.[01:04:59] Abhinandan: I don't think there was [01:05:00] any strategy involved because it started as a meme page." You're absolutely right. Mm. [01:05:03] Josy promo: Mm. [01:05:03] Manisha: True. "[01:05:04] Abhinandan: And I don't think Deepak or any of the founders expected to become this, unless Abhinandan has some inside information about the involvement of a certain common man." I just saw that a police officer was wearing Meta glasses.[01:05:18] Abhinandan: Can you look into whether Delhi Police has placed a bulk order or something from Meta? [01:05:21] Raman: Mm. [01:05:22] Abhinandan: This could have broader privacy implications if Meta is supplying such glasses to law enforcement agencies. That's a very good point actually, Anonymous. But the one thing is, [01:05:30] and Manisha we saw this too, and not the first time.[01:05:32] Abhinandan: The first time I mentioned this was on Haftaa during COVID, and people said, "You're making this shit up." I was at a, uh... My aunt had passed away during COVID, so there was, you know, very limited whatever you did. So just a few of us family had gone, and there is a service called, uh, I think Antim Yatra- [01:05:51] Josy promo: Mm[01:05:51] Abhinandan: who sends an ambulance. Mm. They do the pool wool. Mm. Mm. Mm. You know, they do everything. So the guy who was at Antim Yatra, he comes to you to the cremation [01:06:00] ground to take sort, because not more than three, four people in family. Yeah. And the guy who was there, I said, "Aapka naam?" He pretended he didn't hear me.[01:06:08] Abhinandan: I asked him two or three times, and finally his name was Aseem. [01:06:10] Manisha: Hm. [01:06:11] Abhinandan: He was afraid to be at the cremation ground. He didn't want to say his name. [01:06:15] Manisha: Ah, yeah. [01:06:16] Abhinandan: So j- like this young lady- Mm ... you know, she doesn't want to give us her name because of OCA, and it's, it's a legitimate concern. They're threatening that we'll suspend...[01:06:25] Abhinandan: This is the actual... I think the three basic [01:06:30] legacies that this government has left. One is it's impossible to have conversation with people who you disagree with. Because Modi doesn't do that, no one else does. You know, not talking to the opposition, not sitting with each other in the canteen, not s- People who I've known in the BJP who are happy to meet me personally but will never meet me in public.[01:06:50] Abhinandan: I used to be gheraoing Manmohan Singh's house. [01:06:53] Josy promo: Mm. [01:06:54] Abhinandan: And I would be meeting people in the Congress in public. [01:06:56] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:06:57] Abhinandan: You know, they weren't afraid of talking. So you can't [01:07:00] talk. [01:07:00] Josy promo: Mm. [01:07:00] Abhinandan: Which is... See, that is one legacy. The other is this whole fear, don't speak your mind. And the third is, the only thing that makes them attractive probably is power.[01:07:11] Abhinandan: Yeah. And the reason they don't want to relinquish power is then they're not gonna be fucking laid in their lives. They're just a fucking bunch of losers That's [01:07:19] Manisha: my feeling Yeah, I don't get it. Like the whole pictures [01:07:20] Raman: and the- Last, last week, uh, last week, uh, you know, I... This, uh, one 𝘒𝘢𝘣𝘢𝘳𝘪 𝘸𝘢𝘭𝘢, he came to my house.[01:07:28] Raman: So I just wanted to [01:07:30] note down his number. So I asked him his name. So he said, uh, "Sir, 𝘮𝘦 𝘑𝘩𝘶𝘵 𝘯𝘩𝘪 𝘣𝘰𝘭𝘶𝘯𝘨𝘢. 𝘔𝘦𝘳𝘢 𝘯𝘢𝘮 𝘊𝘩𝘢𝘩𝘪𝘥 𝘩𝘢𝘪." I said, "Aapka toh bahut achcha naam hai." He said, "Nahi, yahan pe phir na woh Muslim logon ke saath toh..." I mean, it has, it has a cascading effect. Yeah.[01:07:31] Raman: That is another... I mean, people fear the state. Now even at the societal level, at the- People fear, yeah ... at the influence. I mean, the kind of fear that, uh, people have. So, uh, so they, they, they're not, uh, let them, uh, you know, entry the, uh, society. Hmm. They are not,[01:08:00] [01:08:04] Raman: they are not having bus- uh, businesses with them. [01:08:07] Manisha: I think actually that is one of the worst things that have happened in the past few years. It's the worst thing. That we, we... When were we profiling each other like this as Indians, yeah? [01:08:14] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:08:15] Manisha: Ki Hindu hai, Sikh hai, Muslim hai. Yahan if you're doing a religious thing for Hindus, toh Muslim hai ya nahi.[01:08:23] Manisha: Abhi by the way they'll all start with the Kanwar [01:08:25] Abhinandan: Yatra. Hmm. [01:08:25] Manisha: Hmm. Now all the meat shops are gonna be shut. It'll all be closed. Which waiter [01:08:30] served you? Was he Muslim? Was he not? My God, it's just... I think that's the most disgusting thing that's happened to India. My, [01:08:35] Rinchen: I mean, my sense is that these things, these sort of thoughts and sort of mindsets, uh, at least growing up, my sense was that a lot of these things, a lot of these things, a lot of these discussions happened behind closed doors.[01:08:46] Raman: Hmm. [01:08:47] Rinchen: I mean, when you're talking, you know, in the living room with your family members and stuff, like people would, all this prejudice would come out. But what is so jarring right now to see how out in the open it is, in your face, uh- [01:08:59] Abhinandan: In [01:09:00] fact, the online disinhibition syndrome- Yeah ... has gone offline. Yes. It was a phenomena that was actually acknowledged in, I think, 2016, '17.[01:09:08] Abhinandan: They said it is a thing. Social media, you say stuff that you would never say in life. What's happened is that has now become... Because people like MPs, if you see- Mm-hmm ... say it in, you know, sitting in parliament- Hmm ... why will other people hold back, [01:09:22] Rinchen: yeah? Yeah, I mean, Ramesh- You set [01:09:23] Abhinandan: the standards, no? [01:09:24] Rinchen: Like Ramesh Bid- like- Hmm[01:09:26] Rinchen: Ramesh Bidhuri, what he said to the Muslim MP in parliament. I mean, [01:09:30] if that [01:09:30] Manisha: is- Every day on prime time- Every day on prime time ... the way they talk about Muslims, BJP spokespersons. Hmm. [01:09:34] Rinchen: 100%. And one more thing, I think the embrace of mediocrity, uh, especially in the last... And across all spaces, not just media- Yeah[01:09:43] Rinchen: but like everywhere. Like this, you know, this total embrace of means of mediocre standards, whether it's scholarship, whether it is media, whether it is even, I don't know, business, I guess, even now. So yeah, that's also. [01:09:57] Abhinandan: I'll read two more emails. This is by Madan. Hmm. Short [01:10:00] and sweet. Love it This is a Madan, short and sweet.[01:10:04] Abhinandan: "Love it when I see former NL TNM people holding up the same standards and values when they move on to a different organization. Personal opinions below. I don't mind if you don't read these. Chetan Bhagat and Abhisara are not a good combo for a podcast meant to have varied opinions." [01:10:18] Raman: Hmm. "[01:10:19] Abhinandan: Producers could have done a better...[01:10:21] Abhinandan: could have better than CB for 24th July." I must admit and take responsibility, this was Manisha's choice. [01:10:30] [01:10:30] Rinchen: Throwing you under the bus. [01:10:32] Manisha: But actually we, I, I was just thinking actually we could have gotten Anurag. [01:10:36] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:10:36] Manisha: Uh, because I guess Chetan, I realize that actually he's everywhere. Mm. He's on every television news channel.[01:10:40] Manisha: But [01:10:41] Abhinandan: actually, to be all honest, you had recommended this, this before he was everywhere. [01:10:44] Manisha: Yeah. [01:10:45] Abhinandan: But I think, you [01:10:45] Manisha: know- Because he had written some interesting stuff on Times, Times of India. [01:10:49] Abhinandan: And- [01:10:49] Manisha: But I still feel like his Instagram thing was, I guess- [01:10:52] Abhinandan: See, you know, I think Chetan- ... pretty bang on ... is trashed rather harshly sometimes because of his [01:11:00] positions or because, you know.[01:11:02] Abhinandan: I actually think he really understands certain things at a very basic level, and I, I can tell you he... You know, some, some of his analysis of just why do people... Not to justify, but, but he understands that. He has sold millions, so he, he gets it sometimes. [01:11:19] Manisha: Yeah, like his Instagram thing was pretty spot on- Yeah[01:11:21] Manisha: I felt. His explanation of the Instagram-ification- Yeah ... of the protest. [01:11:25] Rinchen: Yeah, he understand which way the wind blows. I mean, that's an important- [01:11:28] Abhinandan: And I think he's a good [01:11:30] kind of, you know, m- measure- barometer for how people think, because he has sold m- millions to the young at some point, you know? He's... Mm. So I think that...[01:11:42] Abhinandan: Utkarsh Kumar says, "Dear Mr. Sekhri, I hope you read the letter in the following Hafta itself because it is short and will lose meaning if read afterwards. Everything you said about not believing in Gen Z really irked me. I used to think «Hum dekhenge.» Today I can say it. Mr. Sekhri, clock it. We're a generation that has grown up questioning everything."[01:12:00] [01:12:00] Abhinandan: Hmm. "[01:12:00] Abhinandan: We have grown up reading The Hunger Games, Divergent, The Maze Runner-" I don't know The Maze Runner. And countless other stories which entered- That's fine ... which centered around one theme, fighting against an oppressive regime. Well, we've learned only one thing. No regime, however strong, is invincible.[01:12:18] Abhinandan: It will fall. Unlike the boomers, we have not given up on fighting, and we will continue to fight. We will continue it, fight. We are the ones spamming. Jaare, Delhi Police se [01:12:30] lati khane, requesting cops for tear gas, playing Subway Surfer with the police. I think what this protest has done is remove any fear we had of government.[01:12:37] Abhinandan: Something they fear the most, we are no longer fearful and are coming for you. For me, Utkarsh- Let's go, buddy. I'm ready for you. But Utkarsh, we were actually thinking of having a debate, which again Manisha has suggested, like she has suggested Chetan Bhagat. That I should have a discussion or a debate with Gen Z.[01:12:57] Abhinandan: M- my view is, [01:13:00] of Gen X, is that we are the toughest generation, which is maybe self-indulgent. Manisha said, "You can, you should debate this with a G- Gen Z-er." So Utkarsh, please mail me, abhinavsekhri@gmail.com. I think it would be an interesting conversation if you're as articulate in person as you are in the mail, no?[01:13:17] Manisha: Also, yeah, Gen Z revolution Mm. Millennials Mm. Plus everyone sustaining the protest from the doctor to the progressive groups to organizers. We, [01:13:30] it was- We are getting sidelined ... I think we are just get- yeah, in this Gen Z revolution- Mm ... people are forgetting it's millennials, dude. [01:13:35] Abhinandan: Mm. One of [01:13:36] Manisha: one. Achcha, [01:13:37] Abhinandan: you are a [01:13:39] Manisha: millennial.[01:13:39] Manisha: Yeah. I was wondering why. I get it. We did it. We- We did [01:13:41] Abhinandan: it. We did it. [01:13:41] Manisha: Gen Z was the marketing arm of it. [01:13:43] Rinchen: Yeah, of course. [01:13:44] Abhinandan: You were the, you made the product. [01:13:46] Manisha: We made the product for marketing. [01:13:49] Abhinandan: And one last mail, just 27 words. Samarth says, "Hi, guys, big fan of the podcast. As a Gen Z subscriber, it kind of pained me that you guys had Chetan Bhagat on your show last week."[01:13:58] Manisha: People are so upset. [01:13:59] Abhinandan: I mean, what would a [01:14:00] washed-up has-been have to say about this protest? Oh. It is so much more provocative, relevant and funny than anything he has ever written. [01:14:07] Manisha: I think he is just not going to come here because he comes once and then there's just letters. [01:14:11] Abhinandan: No, on that I will say he's very thick-skinned.[01:14:14] Abhinandan: Mm. Which is good. So I- Which is a very Gen X thing. [01:14:16] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. [01:14:17] Abhinandan: You fucking trash, yeah, whoa, we still want to talk [01:14:23] Manisha: Okay, he wasn't that bad also, guys. Like [01:14:25] Abhinandan: Yeah, I don't... But he does get a lot of, uh, you know, flak- Yeah ... where, where- [01:14:29] Manisha: Okay, I get [01:14:30] refreshing. I'm, I mean, I get that he's probably not as refreshing as you'd want because he's, he's...[01:14:35] Manisha: Everything that he says is already said, and he's everywhere. Yeah. So that way, Anurag would've been really good, but he wasn't, like, terrible. [01:14:42] Rinchen: Right. Okay. [01:14:44] Abhinandan: Right. With that, we will- Right. Okay. He's already everywhere ... bring this episode of Subscribers Take to an end. We will make sure we address every email, every criticism, every suggestion.[01:14:55] Abhinandan: And Utkarsh, let's try to make that happen. If you get two, three more friends of yours [01:15:00] who are as articulate as you, let's have a discussion, Gen X versus Gen Z. Yeah. Uh, and we'd like to thank all of you who keep us honest. We've had a surge of support in the last week, 10 days. [01:15:14] Raman: Yes. [01:15:14] Abhinandan: Please keep it up. Tell your friends and family.[01:15:16] Abhinandan: And I wanna really tell you guys, many of you, I'm sure, supported us, but supported us more out of pity than thinking that this can actually change things. You've seen how it can change things. You can set the [01:15:30] narrative. You don't have to be the biggest domino, but if you're the first one to get, push the bigger domino, you can have a huge effect.[01:15:36] Abhinandan: So those of you who've been supporting us forever, see what you made happen. In fact, when we went on the ground, uh, Manisha, Atul, and I, so many people said, "Dude, you guys have been saying this for the last 10 years." [01:15:47] Manisha: Yeah. "[01:15:47] Abhinandan: And it's caught on." So that's only because you guys have been supporting us. So get a friend, relative.[01:15:54] Abhinandan: Here's a QR code. Wear the sticker with pride that you pay to keep news free. It's important, [01:16:00] right? QR code is here, link is in the show notes. With that, I'd like to thank our wonderful sound recordist, Anil, our producer, Amit. I'd like to thank you, Manisha. Thank you- Thank you ... Rinchen. [01:16:11] Raman: Thank you. [01:16:11] Abhinandan: We will leave you with this song, which I shall sing for you, Bachcho.[01:16:23] Abhinandan: Huh? Why? Namaskar.[01:16:30] [01:16:32] Manisha: Thank you for your subscription. You're changing the world by changing the way news is funded. For the smoothest News Laundry experience, download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our paywall podcasts. And you'll also get access to all free News Laundry shows. Keep us ad-free and subscriber-funded.[01:16:50] Manisha: Help us grow. Tell people who listen to you to pay to keep news free. Subscribe to News Laundry. Keep journalism [01:17:00] independent

2026/8/6

The Raja Singh acquittal pattern: How hate speech cases keep collapsing in court

The controversial 2022 hate speech case for his remarks against the Prophet was arguably the most politically consequential prosecution Raja Singh faced. It was also one of the clearest examples of a pattern that would recur across his acquittals: the prosecution’s inability to translate the charges into a conviction.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-08-05/geh7z6l0/thenewsminute2026-08-022ar0ya4rRajaSingh020726.jpg.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption>Raja Singh</figcaption></figure>In August 2022, AIMIM chief Asaduddin Owaisi was compelled to appeal for peace. The previous day, hundreds of Muslims had poured out into the streets of Hyderabad.“Gustaq e nabi ki ek saza, sar tann se juda,” the crowd chanted. (‘There is only one punishment for audaciously insulting the Prophet, severe head from body.’) “I condemn the call for violence,” Asaduddin said on August 23, 2022. “Our fight should be within the ambit of the law. I am not in agreement with the language used. I want to tell protesters that they cannot take the law into their own hands.” The outpouring on Hyderabad’s streets was not unprompted. T Raja Singh, the Goshamahal MLA and then a leader of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), had made comments on Prophet Muhammad, Islam’s final Prophet. In response, a deeply offended community protested, particularly in the Old City. Raja Singh was arrested for his comments and subsequently granted bail 77 days later.On June 30, 2026, Raja Singh was acquitted in the very case that had dominated headlines four years earlier.A prominent face of Hindutva politics in Telangana, Raja Singh has built his political career on speeches routinely steeped in Islamophobia. Over the years, several FIRs have been registered against him, yet he has almost never been convicted.Whether Raja Singh’s speech constituted hate speech and if it was punishable at all is a different question, but a closer examination of court records reveals that these cases fell apart because of weak chargesheets, shoddy investigations, and incomplete technical evidences TNM had <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/premium/101-cases-just-1-conviction-how-bjps-raja-singh-keeps-getting-away-168160">reported in 2022</a></ins> that while Hyderabad police had registered at least 101 cases against Raja Singh till then, he was only convicted in one case and acquitted in at least 33 cases at that time. These acquittals happened when the BRS and Congress were in power in the state.In this story, we examined 22 more acquittals and the patterns they reveal.The case that shook Hyderabad and still ended in acquittalNo speech of the three-time MLA received as much attention as the one against the Prophet.On the night of August 22, 2022, as the demonstrations against Raja Singh swelled, police deployed additional personnel across sensitive areas and detained several protesters.Raja Singh’s remarks came in a video uploaded to his YouTube channel, Sri Ram Telangana, titled ‘Faruqui K Aaka Ka Itihaas Suniye’ (Listen to the history of Faruqui’s master). The master in question was a snide reference to Prophet Muhammad.The immediate context was comedian Munawar Faruqui’s proposed performance in Hyderabad. Faruqui had long been a target of Hindu right-wing groups, who accused him of mocking Hindu deities. Following the accusation, Munawar tendered an apology. In his video, Raja Singh quickly moved beyond criticism of the comedian and launched into a discussion of Prophet Muhammad, making a series of comments about the Prophet’s life, including references to his marriages and Islamic religious texts.The controversy unfolded at a particularly volatile moment. Barely three months earlier, remarks made by former BJP spokesperson Nupur Sharma on a live debate on Times Now about the Prophet had triggered protests across India and provoked diplomatic criticism from several Muslim-majority countries.The BJP had suspended Nupur Sharma in an attempt to contain the fallout. Faced with another controversy centred on remarks about the Prophet, the party adopted a similar course. Raja Singh was suspended from the BJP, while the Telangana Police arrested him on August 23. He would spend 77 days in custody before securing bail.His speech had been recorded. The video had been uploaded online. Television channels broadcast it. Clips circulated widely on social media. The reaction was immediate and visible; the controversy it generated was undeniable, and the prosecution had witnesses who claimed to have watched the recording. Police registered a case under Sections 153A, 295A, 504, 505(2), and 506 of the Indian Penal Code (IPC), alleging that Raja Singh had promoted enmity between communities, outraged religious feelings, provoked breaches of peace, and committed criminal intimidation.On its face, this should have been one of the easier cases to prosecute.Yet when the case finally concluded last month, Raja Singh was acquitted.How the case fell apartThe acquittal stemmed from how the case was investigated and presented in court.The prosecution’s case rested heavily on electronic evidence. According to the complainant, Khadar Khan, he watched the video, downloaded it, and submitted it to the police along with a Section 65B certificate, the document required to authenticate electronic records as per the Indian Evidence Act. Another witness told investigators that he had watched the video and that the remarks had hurt the religious sentiments of Muslims.But by the time the matter reached trial, the key dispute was centred more around whether the prosecution could prove that the video produced before the court was an authentic and reliable record of the speech that had triggered the controversy.One of Raja Singh’s principal arguments concerned the source of the video itself. The prosecution never produced the original video uploaded to Raja Singh’s YouTube channel. Instead, a prosecution witness admitted that the video contained in the court record had been sourced from a broadcast from Telugu news channel NTV, which carried the footage, rather than the original upload. The defence also argued that the Section 65B certificate accompanying the recording did not specifically certify the alleged original source.The distinction went to the heart of the prosecution’s case. <figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-08-05/nm525xed/hqdefault-1.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>“Since what the police produced was a video telecast on a channel, there were pauses, sections of the videos were deleted and edited. In a court of law, the only thing that matters is whether the original video was produced or not,” Karuna Sagar, Raja Singh’s lawyer, told TNM.The forensic examination recorded discontinuities, pauses, and breaks within the video. The expert witness acknowledged that such interruptions could result from deletion, editing or removal of content. Seizing on that admission, the defence argued that the recording could not be treated as a complete and unaltered version of the original speech.The issue was not necessarily whether the video had in fact been manipulated. Rather, the defence sought to show that investigators had failed to eliminate that possibility. The investigation itself provided further ground for challenge.According to the defence, the investigating officer admitted during trial that he had neither examined the devices through which the video was viewed nor verified the computer allegedly used to download it. Ownership details of those devices were not collected. The downloading process itself was not independently verified.The translated transcript of Raja Singh’s remarks became another area of dispute.Like many speeches delivered by Raja Singh, the video contained a mix of languages, colloquial expressions, and references that required translation. The prosecution relied on a translated version of the speech during trial. Raja Singh’s lawyers challenged its reliability, arguing that the individual who prepared the transcript possessed no recognised qualification, certification or formal training in translation. According to the defence, the document reflected the witness’s personal understanding of the speech rather than expert linguistic analysis.In many criminal cases, translation is a procedural detail. In hate speech cases, it can become much more important. Questions of meaning, context, and intent often turn on the precise words used and how those words are interpreted. By challenging the translator’s expertise, the defence was also challenging the prosecution’s interpretation of Raja Singh’s remarks.The most consequential issue, however, concerned intent.Among the charges leveled against Raja Singh was Section 295A of the IPC, which criminalises deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings. The provision requires more than proof that a statement caused offence. Prosecutors must establish that the accused acted with a deliberate and malicious intention. Legal scholar Shahrukh Alam said courts typically infer intent from the circumstances in which a speech is delivered rather than requiring direct evidence of a speaker's state of mind. “If you are doing something, and know that it will have certain consequences, the presumption is that you did it deliberately and knowingly,” she said. “Intent is read from context and acting in a way that you know certain consequences will follow.”The defence said that the prosecution had failed to do so, arguing that some of the references cited in the case were traceable to Islamic source material. The defence further argued that the investigating officer had not examined whether the statements attributed to Raja Singh were derived from such material.By the time the case concluded, the trial had moved far from the public outrage that initially surrounded it. The protests, the political fallout, and the national attention had established the significance of the controversy. They could not, however, substitute for the evidentiary burden required in a criminal court.When the court acquitted Raja Singh in June, it did so after concluding that the prosecution had failed to prove the charges beyond reasonable doubt.The outcome was significant because this was not a marginal case. “This could have persuasive value in the Nupur Sharma case,” Karuna Sagar told TNM.No one offended by Raja SinghSince December 2024, Raja Singh has been acquitted in 22 more cases, including the 2022 controversial Prophet remark.In 15 cases, the judge agreed with the defence, which had argued that no public grievance, hurt feelings, or private complaints were found. In 14 cases, it was ruled that no real world disturbance, communal violence, or threat to peace was recorded. For instance, in April 2023, Shahinayatgunj police Sub-Inspector (SI) Rajeswara Reddy took up a suo motu complaint against Raja Singh following a Ram Navami rally speech, where he had called for the economic boycott of Muslims.In his speech, the MLA said, “Those who say this country is not ours, you belong to Pakistan. There will be a tandav (furore). If a Hindu stands up, every mulla (slur word used to refer to Muslims) will be wiped out. You are the murderer of our mother, the Holy Cow.”The speech didn’t end there. Raja Singh also spoke about how residents of Old City, an area that chiefly houses Muslim residents, are “desh ke gaddar” (traitors). “One says, no one here will purchase from a shop run by Hindus. I want to clarify that if we Hindus decided to implement the same, then just think what would happen of you? You wouldn’t even be allowed to beg for alms because it is Hindus who give alms.”By a simple understanding of language and intent, Raja Singh’s speech met the criteria for hate speech. India does not have a universally applicable definition in law for hate speech. But in its 267th report, the Law Commission of India defined hate speech as “written or spoken, signs, visible representations within the hearing or sight of a person with the intention to cause fear or alarm, or incitement to violence.”Several of Raja Singh’s speeches examined by TNM accused Muslims of being disloyal to the nation, belonging in Pakistan, or acting against India’s interests. Such remarks may potentially attract Section 153B of the IPC, which criminalises assertions that members of a religious, linguistic, regional or other group are less loyal to the nation because of their identity. A review of the cases examined by TNM found that the provision was rarely invoked against Raja Singh.Delivered at Begum Bazaar, a commercial hub with several Muslim businesses, the  “desh ke gaddar” speech was heard by the persecuted community.But how does a court determine whether a speech was intended to cause communal harm? According to Shahrukh Alam, criminal courts generally infer intent from the foreseeable consequences of a person's actions rather than requiring direct evidence of their state of mind.In practice, this means courts can consider factors such as the audience being addressed, the political context in which a speech was made, and whether the speaker could reasonably anticipate the consequences of their remarks.In March 2023, another speech by Raja Singh posted on Facebook showed him urging Hindus to purchase Holi festival items only from shops whose owners support and participate in burning the ‘Holika’ and to boycott “desh ke gaddar”.Among other things, Raja Singh was let off because he did not clearly use the terms Islam or Muslims. “There is no chance for persons who belong to Muslim community to get hurt because of the speech of the accused, because there is no mention in the speech of the accused about the Muslim community or Islam religion,” the judge ruled.Raja Singh’s use of euphemisms, while hardly indirect, also seem to shield him. He never quite refers to the group he is targeting as ‘Muslims’. Instead, he calls them cow killers or traitors, leaving just enough leeway to get away in courts by saying no specific community was referenced.Acquittals on technicalitiesBut aside from the ruling that no feelings were outraged, a repeated occurrence was how the police investigation and the prosecution botched technical evidence crucial to the case. In 11 of the 22 cases TNM looked at, Raja Singh was acquitted because of defective, invalid, or unverifiable Section 65B Certificates, a crucial document under the Indian Evidence Act. In 10 cases, the Forensic Science Laboratory (FSL) voice/video analysis was either missing or botched.This lapse is exemplified in the Ram Navami speech case three years ago, registered against Raja Singh by SI Rajeswara Reddy.During a Ram Navami procession held on March 30, 2023, Raja Singh <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/telangana/kerala-west-bengal-verge-becoming-islamic-countries-bjps-raja-singh-175327">called</a></ins> for the establishment of a Hindu Rashtra, something he has <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DESKDs0eCi4">said</a></ins> on many occasions.According to the complaint, several of Raja Singh’s supporters also waved photographs of Nathuram Godse, MK Gandhi’s assassin, and “raised slogans with intention to create enmity among the public on the grounds of religion”.Visuals of the Godse photo <ins><a href="https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/bjp-worker-held-for-waving-photo-of-nathuram-godse-during-ram-navami-rally-2359486-2023-04-13">being waved</a></ins> were widely reported in the media.Addressing the crowd, Raja Singh was heard saying, “Today, there are 100 crore Hindus in India. So why not declare India as a Hindu country? Today, we have more than 50 Islamic countries and 150 Christian countries. So today I want to ask those ‘impotent’ leaders who are against Akhand Hindu Rashtra, why are you objecting to it?”<blockquote class="twitter-tweet">Thread w/ <a href="https://x.com/akhmxt?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@akhmxt</a> 🚨🚨🚨 Suspended BJP MLA T Raja Singh detained twice, served 2 notices & has 5 FIRs registered against him for making communal speeches that violate his bail conditions. What's it going to take for authorities to arrest him and cancel his bail? + <a href="https://t.co/6LIKDXFRvE">pic.twitter.com/6LIKDXFRvE</a>— Shinjinee Majumder (@shinjineemjmdr) <a href="https://x.com/shinjineemjmdr/status/1644678322507636738?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 8, 2023</a></blockquote> The case was registered two days later, on April 1, under Sections 296 (disturbing religious assembly) and 504 (intentional insult with intent to provoke a breach of the peace) of the IPC.Raja Singh was, however, acquitted. The court noted that the SI and other prosecution witnesses could not recall the exact slogans raised during the procession, or prove that they were actually on duty at the time.It also observed that no member of the public had complained that Raja Singh’s speech was provocative, which in turn meant that public peace was not disturbed. “It was felt that the present case was filed only basing on the assumption and presumptions that the speech of the accused will cause enmity between two communities because if it is really provocative in nature, certainly complaint will be lodged by the people whose feelings were hurt” because of Raja Singh’s speech, the judgement said. This reason was cited in multiple acquittals – the police almost never managed to bring in witnesses who could attest that these remarks indeed affected communal harmony among Hindus and Muslims, particularly in Old City where most of these speeches were delivered.The judgement also suggested that calling for Hindu Rashtra wasn’t even provocative in the first place. “It is surprising to hear from the above said witnesses as to how the speech made by the accused to form Hindu Rashtra is provocative in nature,” judge S Sree Devi observed.Raja Singh was acquitted in 15 cases as the defence argued that no public grievance, hurt feelings, or private complaints could be found or were taken up after a particular speech was made by the MLA. In 14 cases, the judge stated that no real world disturbance, communal violence or threat to peace could be found. Consistently, judge Sree Devi ruled that ‘one cannot assume and presume’ future communal threats. She held that preemptive police apprehensions of potential future unrest have “no leg to stand” in the eye of the law without physical, proof-backed evidence of real-world disruption to public order.Similarly in 2017, Raja Singh – in an interview with NTV Telugu – had said that he will dismantle the masjids located at Kasi, Mathura, and build a Hindu temple there and that he was preparing a special army for the same. He also likened Hyderabad’s Old City to a ‘mini Pakistan.’ This case didn’t stand because the forensic analysis of the video was bungled.The prosecution’s case rested primarily on a YouTube video and a forensic voice-matching report, but the court held that the electronic records did not satisfy the mandatory requirements for admissibility. The Section 65B certificate accompanying the downloaded YouTube video was found to be defective because it was undated, omitted the source URL and other identifying particulars of the video. The certificate also failed to describe the computer system or storage media used to create the copy.The court also rejected the prosecution’s forensic evidence linking the voice in the interview to Raja Singh. Investigators had obtained a CD containing his specimen speeches from the Telangana Legislative Assembly and sent it for forensic comparison with the interview recording. Although the FSL submitted a voice-matching report, the court ruled that the specimen voice recording itself was not legally admissible because the prosecution had failed to obtain a valid Section 65B certificate from the Assembly certifying its authenticity.Since the reference sample was inadmissible, the subsequent forensic opinion also lost evidentiary value.Apart from these evidentiary defects, the court found no proof that the video had actually disturbed public order or inflamed communal tensions. Police witnesses admitted that no law-and-order problem arose after the video was uploaded and that no member of the public had complained of hurt religious sentiments.Other grounds for Raja Singh’s acquittalIn nine cases, Raja Singh was acquitted as witnesses turned hostile. In eight cases, electronic evidence went missing, and in seven cases, the court rejected presumptions connecting gestures/terms to target religions.<iframe title="Reasons Raja Singh was acquitted in 22 cases" aria-label="Bar Chart" id="datawrapper-chart-gR0rV" src="https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/gR0rV/1/" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" style="border: none;" width="600" height="417" data-external="1" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe>But by now, the pattern is clear. Either no one outside the police is willing to testify against Raja Singh, or the police can’t find such people who can describe his hate speeches and the harm they cause by further polarising people on communal lines in Old City. The police themselves have botched basic procedural work such as submitting video evidence, or even just proving they were on duty at the time.And these are instances from just the past 1.5 years.Raja Singh has been infamous for Islamophobic hate speech for over 10 years now. From Telangana to Maharashtra and Madhya Pradesh, he has addressed huge gatherings and called for economic boycott of Muslims, <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/telangana/telangana-bjp-mla-raja-singh-booked-for-hate-speech-in-maharashtras-solapur-rally">using bulldozers</a></ins> to raze their homes, demolishing mosques in contested sites, and even to <ins><a href="https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/t-raja-singh-prophet-mohammad-remarks-madhya-pradesh-jalore-poison-your-girl-if-she-is-love-jihad-victim-telangana-mla-9403397">poison girls</a></ins> who are ‘victims of love jihad’ if they refuse to convert back to Hinduism.In Telangana, activists have been seeking legal action against him for hate speech since <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/premium/101-cases-just-1-conviction-how-bjps-raja-singh-keeps-getting-away-168160">as early as 2016</a></ins>. Cases have fallen because the police didn’t take permission required to prosecute a legislator.In one case from 2010, a mob led by Raja Singh was accused of setting fire to a mosque, damaging the gate of another mosque, attacking a CRPF officer, and vandalising a police vehicle. This was before he first became an MLA in 2014. All the accused were acquitted 12 years later, after most of the witnesses turned hostile against the MLA. The main complainant claimed that the police had made him sign a blank paper all those years ago. Even a police officer among the witnesses said he couldn’t identify anyone’s face from the mob.Two more cases over the attacks on the two mosques also ended in acquittals 12 years later.This has continued to happen under successive non-BJP governments in Telangana.Raja Singh’s lawyer Karuna Sagar also represents Union Minister of State for Home Affairs Bandi Sanjay, BJP MP from Telangana. The lawyer <ins><a href="https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/surrender-or-naka-bandi-arrest-conflicting-custody-claims-emerge-in-posco-case-against-union-minister-bandi-sanjays-son/articleshow/131151142.cms">was with Sanjay’s son Bhageerath </a></ins>when he was taken into custody in the POCSO case against him.Karuna Sagar is a celebrity in his own right among BJP supporters and a key figure in the Telangana BJP. He was one of the complainants who filed cases against AIMIM leader Akbaruddin Owaisi over his infamous, alleged speech of “removing the police from the streets for 15 minutes” in 2012, in which Owaisi too, incidentally, was acquitted in 2022.By now, Karuna Sagar is all too familiar with the legal loopholes his clients can use to their advantage.In March 2026, Telangana government introduced a hate speech bill of its own in the state Assembly which is now under review of a Select Committee. Barring a few operational differences, the Telangana draft legislation was much like Karnataka’s law introduced in 2025.“We focus on definitions of hate speech, or on offense and insult being subsequent problems of hate speech. But those are not issues: discrimination and structured violence is. A law should ideally not view two groups as equals. But neither 153A of the IPC nor state legislations like Karnataka’s hate speech draft law clarify one important facet of hate speech. Hateful speech causes discrimination. It is always a speech targeted at marginalised groups, not the majority,” Shahrukh Alam said. With inputs from JahnaviThis report was <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/telangana/the-raja-singh-acquittal-pattern-how-hate-speech-cases-keep-collapsing-in-court">republished</a></ins> from The News Minute as part of The News Minute-Newslaundry alliance.Why do hate speech cases against Raja Singh keep collapsing?Unchecked hate speech: From Kerala's right wing X Spaces to YouTube’s Hindutva pop

2026/8/5

Udhayanidhi’s arrest: Why TVK made the call

Arresting the Leader of the Opposition is no ordinary decision. The TVK government would have known the political backlash it would invite, particularly with the Tamil Nadu Assembly session about to begin. So we asked TVK sources why the call was taken.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-08-04/amps9tci/thenewsminute2026-08-0423hd8uicPT-159.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutouts of Tamil Nadu CM Vijay and Udhayanidhi Stalin. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>Welcome to this week’s Powertrip, a political newsletter curated exclusively for subscribers of The News Minute and Newslaundry. This week’s edition is by Dhanya Rajendran and Shabbir Ahmed.In this week’s edition, we asked TVK sources about the TN government’s risky decision to arrest Leader of the Opposition Udhayanidhi Stalin. If it was intended as a message, did it land as it was meant to?Powertrip is a newsletter that senior political reporters of TNM put together every week. For those who can’t access the full newsletter, get a subscription and read every Tuesday.<iframe class="trinity-player trinity-iframe" src="https://trinitymedia.ai/player/trinity-i/2900013399/?pageURL=https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/08/05/udhayanidhis-arrest-why-tvk-made-the-call&readContentType=URL" style="border: 0; width: 100% !important; height: 90px !important" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe> Udhayanidhi’s arrest: Why TVK made the callThe TVK government’s decision to arrest DMK leader and Leader of the Opposition Udhayanidhi Stalin, just hours after he made a remark alluding to Vijay and Trisha, has everyone scrambling for hot takes. Was the arrest justified? Will it end up making Udhayanidhi a hero?Arresting the Leader of the Opposition is no ordinary decision. The TVK government would have known the political backlash it would invite, particularly with the Tamil Nadu Assembly session about to begin.So we asked TVK sources why the call was taken.Police sources said the instructions came from the very top, meaning the Chief Minister’s Office. A senior TVK leader told us the government wanted to draw a line. According to the leader, demeaning comments had become increasingly frequent, and the arrest was meant to send a message that such remarks would no longer be tolerated. Arresting Udhayanidhi, they argued, would also signal to the rest of the DMK that if even the Leader of the Opposition could face police action, no one else could expect immunity.The TVK also pointed to earlier cases. Thoothukudi MLA Anita Radhakrishnan was arrested, although the court refused to remand him. Vilathikulam MLA Markandeyan was also arrested for making derogatory remarks against Chief Minister Vijay.According to TVK sources, this was not the first time Udhayanidhi had crossed the line. They cited an earlier remark in which he said the TVK government planned to shoot an “item song” inside the Tamil Nadu Assembly. The government believed repeated comments of this nature could not go unanswered.In fact, a police source said that given the DMK’s legal resources and strong legal team, the government was aware there was little scope for securing judicial custody for Udhayanidhi in this case. But they still decided that arrest itself was the message.Now whether that message has landed the way the TVK intended is another question.Two DMK leaders we spoke to offered contrasting viewpoints. One insisted Udhayanidhi’s remark was never intended to carry a sexual connotation, despite how it was portrayed in the media.Another admitted that there had been unease within sections of the party on Monday night. Some leaders worried the remark could damage the DMK, particularly among women voters. But the arrest changed the mood almost instantly. The party was invigorated and came together to oppose what it saw as political overreach. Leaders who had been on the back foot suddenly found an opportunity to go on the offensive against the Vijay government.This senior DMK leader even remarked that personal animosity between Vijay and Udhayanidhi may have played a role, adding that “Vijay has finally done Udhay a favour.”Sources said the DMK had expected complaints to be filed but did not anticipate the police arriving at Udhayanidhi’s residence early the next morning. Officers reached his house around 8 am and waited for nearly two hours while he told them he would freshen up before going with them.That delay turned out to be a blessing for the DMK. It gave the party enough time to mobilise its legal team and bring supporters onto the streets. Senior leaders, including Duraimurugan, KN Nehru, Sekar Babu, Ma Subramaniam and NR Elango, along with several advocates, reached Udhayanidhi’s residence before he was taken away.Zero HourA political story of public importance<ins><a href="https://scroll.in/article/1094711/the-government-has-boasted-about-the-neet-re-exam-students-say-it-was-full-of-glitches">Modi government boasted about the NEET re-exam. But students say it was full of glitches</a> </ins><figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-08-04/j57jdh1l/thenewsminute2026-08-044algaw9vPT-159-0.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>From missing scoresheets, to changing scores, students have reported a range of errors and inconsistencies.<h3>Powermoves</h3><h5>Top 5 political stories</h5><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/telangana/the-raja-singh-acquittal-pattern-how-hate-speech-cases-keep-collapsing-in-court">The Raja Singh acquittal pattern: How hate speech cases keep collapsing in court</a></ins> <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/tamil-nadu/in-kanyakumari-sea-gets-closer-and-villages-vanish-as-residents-fight-mining-expansion">In Kanyakumari, sea gets closer and villages vanish as residents fight mining expansion</a></ins> <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/tamil-nadu/tvk-govt-revamps-tn-fact-check-unit-appoints-vijay-fan-club-founder-guru-as-chief">TVK govt revamps TN Fact Check Unit, appoints Vijay fan club founder Guru as chief</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/telangana/telugu-youth-are-more-than-movie-fans-what-the-neet-protests-revealed">Telugu youth are more than movie fans: What the NEET protests revealed</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/news/vande-mataram-bill-explained-what-changes-and-can-you-be-forced-to-sing-it">Vande Mataram Bill explained: What changes, and can you be forced to sing it?</a></ins>  Newsletter management: Vidya Sigamany

2026/8/5

Hafta 600: Nationalism, travel and bureaucracy — our most unpopular opinions

The podcast where we discuss the week’s news. <figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-16/egtq656l/HAFTA-NEW.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="New Hafta cartoon featuring cutouts of Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal, and Abhinandan Sekhri. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>Celebrating 600 uninterrupted episodes of NL Hafta, Abhinandan Sekhri and Anand Vardhan are joined by former Hafta panelists Jayashree Arunachalam and Mehraj Lone for a special episode built around one simple idea: our most unpopular opinions.The discussion opens with Mehraj D Lone's opinion that the idea of nationalism itself – not merely Hindu nationalism – is one of the root causes of India’s social, political and administrative problems.He argues that nationalism inevitably centralises power, erodes local autonomy and struggles to accommodate a civilisation as diverse as India.Mehraj argues that the modern nation-state inevitably concentrates power, saying, “When you implement it in a country as big and as diverse as India, it entails a few things. One is necessarily centralisation.” Anand turns to governance and bureaucracy, revealing that he has fundamentally changed his own position on lateral entry into the civil services.He added, “I had said that some degree of lateral entry could be allowed, limited only in the higher civil service. Now I think I was wrong.” Emphasising on his opinion, He added, “My concern is that we see hiring in think tanks, international organisations like the UN, consultancy organisations, or even media organisations at the top level. If you allow a window of lateral entry into government service, then this ‘people like us’ syndrome comes into play. With my experience at the top in a lot of these organisations, people – whatever their pretensions are – are very classist. They hire people who talk like them, who are like them, who they identify with. That barrier comes in.” Jayashree's unpopular opinion moves away from politics altogether and into lifestyle. She argues that modern travel has been romanticised far beyond what it deserves. “Travel is a hedonistic and consumeristic activity that has acquired this aura of being something greater and more noble.”For her, travel isn't inherently transformative. “Travel doesn’t make you a better version of yourself. It is as good or as bad as buying clothes or handbags.”Speaking of his opinion, Abhinandan said, “My unpopular opinion is an extension of that. I say unpopular opinion to a grouping which, since I identify as liberal, is the liberal grouping. Because of course, to the right, everything is an unpopular opinion because I can’t stand the right... So among liberals..."His central argument is blunt: “I think their description of ‘snowflake’ is very accurate. I think they have the inability to have conversations with positions they can’t agree with or people they can't agree with."All this and more.<iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ec3d9497cef7479d2ef4798/6a6d889ef7c2060a1f3443e0" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/spiQbSihmWM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spiQbSihmWM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>Hafta letters: <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/08/01/hafta-letters-i-dont-understand-why-chetan-bhagat-continues-to-be-invited">‘I don’t understand why Chetan Bhagat continues to be invited’</a></ins>If you want to write to Hafta, <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/podcast-letters">click here</a></ins>. Click <ins><a href="http://newslaundry.com/sena">here</a></ins> to contribute to our Sena project. Check out the<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/store?routeName=NlStore"> Newslaundry store</a></ins> and flaunt your love for independent media. Download the<ins><a href="http://www.newslaundry.com/download-app"> Newslaundry app</a></ins>. Song: <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=copZrmeUCQI&list=RDcopZrmeUCQI&start_radio=1"> </a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVNQd_-1ouA&list=RDMVNQd_-1ouA&start_radio=1">HUGEL, SOLTO - Jamaican (Bam Bam)</a></ins>—------------------------------------------------------------------------------Timecodes00:00:00 Introduction00:04:37 Headlines00:12:35: Our Most Unpopular opinions 01:27:03 : Letters01:32:24 : Recommendations—------------------------------------------------------------------------------References<ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/mmmk">NL -TNM Joint Subscription</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/podcasts/south-central">South Central</a></ins>For Non- Subscribers – <ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/pl_TGWwtDUMNLsSAu/view">Get The Sticker. Pay to keep News Free</a></ins>For Subscribers – <ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/pl_TGXXxJVCbCceUU/view">Get The Sticker. Pay to keep News Free</a></ins>—------------------------------------------------------------------------------RecommendationsAbhinandan Sekhri<ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF_tDPRNV5U">The Daily Show</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF_tDPRNV5U"> (Jon Stewart Segment)</a></ins>Anand Vardhan <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6Gw08pwhws">IIT Madras Physics Lectures by Prof. V. Balakrishnan</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.amazon.in/TIHAR-PLAYERS-Prison-Memoir/dp/9353457467">The Tihar Players A Prison Memoir</a></ins>Jayashree Arunachalam <ins><a href="https://x.com/nfdcindia/status/2049091263081979960">NFDC Add-on on Prime Video</a></ins><ins><a href="https://x.com/nfdcindia/status/2049091263081979960">Remembering Awtar Kaul: When the curtain fell too soon</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/226957129-snake-eater">Snake-Eater by T Kingfisher</a></ins>Mehraj Lone <ins><a href="https://www.amazon.in/s?k=siddhartha+by+hermann+hesse&adgrpid=65771084064&gad_source=1&hvadid=749817593279&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9181766&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=16475680391795074979--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=16475680391795074979&hvtargid=kwd-298961693896&hydadcr=23606_2349234&mcid=cf3ed2add4363ad590a63309b0efc887&tag=googinhydr1-21&ref=pd_sl_78vg58g0zq_e">Siddhartha</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.amazon.in/s?k=siddhartha+by+hermann+hesse&adgrpid=65771084064&gad_source=1&hvadid=749817593279&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9181766&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=16475680391795074979--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=16475680391795074979&hvtargid=kwd-298961693896&hydadcr=23606_2349234&mcid=cf3ed2add4363ad590a63309b0efc887&tag=googinhydr1-21&ref=pd_sl_78vg58g0zq_e"> by Hermann Hesse</a></ins><ins><a href="https://larrycjohnson.substack.com/p/debasification-a-fancy-word-for-booting">Debasification</a></ins><ins><a href="https://larrycjohnson.substack.com/p/debasification-a-fancy-word-for-booting"> (Article on Substack by America Nets)</a></ins>Check out <ins><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VCmV6yr5t1LHE77Xp5-cYhWrQSkhW3A8nix310MvRQU/edit?usp=sharing">previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters</a>.</ins>Produced by Amit Pandey with production assistance from Sourav. Sound by Anil Kumar.[00:00:00] Opening Intro: This is a News Laundry podcast and you're listening to NL Hafta[00:00:10] Abhinandan : अंग्रेज़ अपना लगान और News Laundry अपना हफ्ता कभी नहीं छोड़ते। Welcome to episode 600 of NL हफ्ता। 600 uninterrupted weeks। How many years that is will be quickly told to us by आनंद। So 600 हफ्ता we have a very special panel for you today। So quick calculation will be done by someone around। Tell me how many weeks that- More than [00:00:35] Anand: 10[00:00:36] Abhinandan : years that is। That 600 divide by 52. Just- [00:00:39] Jayashree : 11, 11 and a [00:00:41] Abhinandan : bit। So this हफ्ता we have the हफ्ता OGs minus one or two। We have in the studio आनंद वर्धन। [00:00:51] Anand: Hello। [00:00:53] Abhinandan : Joining us from Kashmir as they say हफ्ता gives you कश्मीर से कन्याकुमारी तक। So from Kashmir we have our wonderful former colleague मेराज। [00:01:06] Mehraj : Hello, [00:01:07] Abhinandan : Raj.Where in Kashmir are you right now? [00:01:10] Mehraj : Nice. Uh, in my village, which is in Baramulla District, about 50, 60 miles from Sopo- uh, Srinagar. [00:01:16] Abhinandan : Which e- explains the glowing complexion and the hoodie. Whereas we are glowing because the sweat and the humidity. [00:01:23] Mehraj : Yeah, it's pretty, uh, hot here also as well. Kind of stuffy because it rained overnight, so.[00:01:29] Jayashree : Yeah, I think you're pretty hot and my pretty hot- Yeah, dude, I mean- ... [00:01:31] Abhinandan : and [00:01:31] Jayashree : we're [00:01:32] Abhinandan : both sweating ... I was about to say, I was, I was about to give that- Yeah ... expression of that- ... Pakistani fan who's standing in the stadium like this. You know, when someone from Kashmir is telling someone from Delhi, "It's pretty hot here."So I was about to give that expression. And joining us from Kashmir to Kanyakumari, a few hundred kilometers from Kanyakumari, is Jayashree. [00:01:50] Jayashree : Hello, hello. You have joined us- You have dragged us back from retirement. [00:01:55] Abhinandan : Back from retirement. [00:01:55] Jayashree : We are pleased. Hm. [00:01:57] Abhinandan : And I'm Abhinandan Sekhri. Today's Hafta is gonna be a very special on the 600th episode, where we'll be discussing unpopular opinions that each of us has had or have.And as Jayashree said, I have so many, so maybe I should pick which one, which unpopular opinion I should discuss. Which is the essence of Hafta. The whole idea of Hafta was to, you know, make our biases, our prejudices, our... Everyone has a worldview which is not necessarily comes from any malicious intent, it's just where we grew up, what we saw.And Hafta was basically that, that the team at News Laundry in this freewheeling conversation can demonstrate to you that these are our biases. So whatever you consume written by us or overseen by us, you run through that prism. It was an exercise in transparency which other loser newsrooms started using, where they had a bunch of fools sitting around the round table discussing stuff which was as informative as the prime time shows.Uh, and, uh, but we shall not take names, 'cause today is a polite Hafta. I shall not u- I will not use any expletives either. [00:03:05] Jayashree : I, I give you five minutes. [00:03:07] Abhinandan : You give me five minutes? But I would just like to say to all those people who used to object, did you see the Gen Z protests? Just saying I'm okay. I'm not that bad.So, so with that, we also would like to tell you, people are finally are proud of supporting independent media. Those of you who've been supporting us for years have always been proud. We've always had those stickers, but now we are relaunching them. If you want to tell the world you support independent media, you are the ones holding the fourth pillar up.You are the pillars holding the fourth pillar up. Here they are, these stickers all over my face. If you're a subscriber already, mail us at subscription@newslaundry.com with the email, which is your subscription email, and we'll send you the set of stickers for free. You will please have to pay for the courier charges, because if several thousand people write into us, our courier charges will go into the lakhs.So pay your subs- the courier charge, and we will send you the stickers for free. Stick it on your car, on your cycle, on your scooter, on your window, on your neighbor's car bumper. Tell the world that you pay to keep news free. Encourage others. And if you're a non-subscriber, we are offering you a discount.Here is a QR code. Scan the QR code or click on the link in the show notes, and you will get this sticker set for free with a subscription, along with- Along with a subscription of course, and a discount, sorry. Right. With that, let's get on with the headlines, and then we shall discuss our unpopular opinions.[00:04:43] Jayashree : Here I am, back again with the headlines. Jayashree is doing [00:04:45] Abhinandan : the [00:04:45] Jayashree : headlines. One day you will invite me as a guest, and I will not be forced to do headlines, but for now I will lead into it. [00:04:51] Abhinandan : Thank you, Jayashree. [00:04:52] Jayashree : So following weeks of nationwide protests over irregularities in public exams, the Union Education Minister Dharmendra Pradhan has resigned.Mm-hmm. Prahlad Joshi has now taken charge of the education portfolio. The central government said it's accepted the Khapra Janata Party's key demands, which has prompted it to end its 36-day sit-in at Jantar Mantar. Center's also constituted a high-powered committee chaired by Infosys co-founder Nandan Nilekani to recommend the next phase of reforms.[00:05:18] Song : Mm. [00:05:18] Jayashree : In Delhi, the police have decided to withdraw 13 FIRs registered in connection with the protest, but the relief will not apply to individuals with prior criminal records. Uh, next is the death toll from flood-related incidents in Assam has risen to 75, after seven more fatalities were reported in Shivsagar District.In Odisha, the floods have impacted over 7 lakh people, with at least five people reported dead. [00:05:42] Abhinandan : In fact, you can read a piece by Manoranjan Pegu, At Least 75 Dead, 7 Lakh Displaced: The Making Of Assam's Annual, inverted commas, "Unprecedented Flood." In fact, we've discussed several times on Hafta that this happens every year at such a large scale.In fact, it used to happen in Bihar also every year, Kosi- Yeah ... but that has reduced for, uh, but yeah, uh, do read this piece by Manoranjan. [00:06:05] Jayashree : Yeah, then most shocking news, of course, of the week is the video of Narendra Modi was briefly taken down by Facebook, so the Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology has summoned Meta's global policy leadership.A ministry official also told the media that Meta will introduce new protocols to handle the accounts of prominent individuals. [00:06:25] Abhinandan : In fact, today the Meta head has been booked. He has been named in the FIR. In fact, I will- Case against Meta India head over posts targeting PM Modi during CJB protests. So the Meta head has been named in whatever, I don't know if it's an FIR yet.Several Facebook, Instagram have been booked over content targeting. Meanwhile, you can abuse everybody else, just don't say anything about PM. And this is the kind of law that is, people are expected to respect. It ain't happening. [00:07:03] Jayashree : Yeah, and while this happened, in Noida, a woman was booked for making objectionable remarks about the Prime Minister in a social media video during the protest at Jantar Mantar.The complaint against her was filed by an advocate. I think it was Times of India that had a story where the advocate said she showed the video to the cops at the police station and the objection of that, the remarks were so objectionable that the cops covered their ears in horror because they were like, "We must not listen to such words about the Prime Minister."[00:07:29] Abhinandan : Meanwhile, the police in Delhi is still yet to file an FIR even after one court had said so for calling my colleagues prostitutes, and that person continues to be platformed on, on TV channels, and even on some so-called independent, uh, digital channels. Such is, such is the world. [00:07:50] Jayashree : Now, in Parliament, the Public Examinations Prevention of Unfair Means Amendment Bill was passed.Rahul Gandhi demanded the removal of union Home Minister Amit Shah, holding him responsible for the police brutality against students during the protest in Delhi. He also asked for a Supreme Court monitored high-powered committee to investigate violence against demonstrators. But in keeping with the structural reforms in governments and the pattern of key decisions that we take, here are two very important things that took place.The Rajya Sabha and the Lok Sabha passed the Prevention of Insults to National Honor Amendment Bill. It basically makes insults to Vande Matram a criminal offense. [00:08:27] Abhinandan : Although I'm wondering that BJP spokesperson who was asked to sing Vande Matram on prime time because he was saying, "All you Muslims who don't sing Vande Matram should be booked."What he made of that song- ... when he said Surendra Bhushmani and all that, does that come under an insult or not? I, is what I want to know. [00:08:46] Jayashree : No. Or does that not count? Because if you intentionally prevent the singing of it or you disrupt the singing of it, then it's like But if [00:08:51] Abhinandan : you murder the song in that fashion, it's allowed, basically.[00:08:54] Jayashree : Still, you're still honoring it in some way. [00:08:56] Abhinandan : I see. [00:08:56] Jayashree : So... And of course, which, this news which you may have seen online, the Indian Hockey Federation has decided to change the national team's jersey color from blue to saffron. Unsurprisingly, this has sparked widespread criticism. Former captain Viren Rasquinha called the move embarrassing And the reason they gave to change the color was they said that the blue will blend in with the color of the pitch.It's, no, not called pitch. What is it called? The turf. [00:09:22] Abhinandan : Turf. The turf. [00:09:23] Jayashree : So [00:09:23] Abhinandan : basically because Nigeria, who wears green when they play football, as you can see, you cannot see their players. They just get camouflaged with the grass. Like a [00:09:32] Jayashree : chameleon. [00:09:33] Abhinandan : Or the Celtics or Real Betis, you know, all these teams that have green jerseys.You just can't see them suddenly, you know? 'Cause they just merge with the background. It's just beautiful. Clearly our sports minister plays hockey As does Mr. Modi and all because these important decisions that they know that our team is not being able to perform 'cause they're merging into the turf.Now we'll start winning, I have no doubt. Thank you. Master stroke. Modi-ji is great. [00:10:01] Jayashree : Next, the Supreme Court has upheld the CBI's decision to close the case against former Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. This is an alleged coal allocation scam. The bench set aside the 2015 trial court order that had summoned Manmohan Singh to face proceedings in the case.Manmohan Singh, of course, has passed away. News from the South, the Kaveri Water Management Authority has directed Karnataka to release 3,500 cusecs of water per day to Tamil Nadu. Tamil Nadu had sought 7,000 cusecs but Karnataka had argued it could not release water due to its own requirements. So this, of course, is very long-standing sort of- [00:10:36] Abhinandan : Yeah, [00:10:37] Jayashree : so-lengthy dispute. Uh, the Supreme Court has granted bail to two men who had spent 12 years in jail under the UAPA observing there was no immediate prospect of the trial concluding. The bench c- held that the prolonged incarceration of Mohammed Shakib Ansari and Waqar Azhar violated their fundamental right to personal liberty.So the case stems from the arrest of a su- suspected Indian Mujahideen member in 2011, and these two were arrested in 2014. Umar Khalid, meanwhile, has applied for bail for the third time at the Delhi High Court. Did you see that Goa news also? The, when the police in Goa picked up protesters who were supporting the CJP protest.[00:11:14] Song : Hmm. [00:11:15] Jayashree : They picked up a protester who carried a placard that said, "Free Umar Khalid," and then they subjected them to this questionnaire which had at least 240 questions, including, like, who financed your protest, where do you, where did you post photos, did you participate in any group chats- ... did you delete any data from your phones about these group chats?So. [00:11:33] Song : Hmm. [00:11:34] Jayashree : And all they did was carry that placard which said, "Free Umar Khalid." So... Uh, Hamas and other Palestinian factions have agreed to a document setting out a plan for their disarmament in Gaza. This is in what United States President Donald Trump has called a monumental step towards peace and security.Earlier this week, US had launched a fresh wave of airstrikes in Iran. [00:11:55] Abhinandan : In fact, the amount of times we've had peace and security return to Gaza and the Iran war ending in the last few years would fill, I think, a full book. Each time they had come up with a peaceful solution that makes everybody happy, but yet [00:12:12] Jayashree : again- Yeah, and every time they say there's a ceasefire or whatever, but they're still carrying out- Yeahstrikes in Gaza, so nothing has stopped. I- [00:12:18] Mehraj : in case of this particular agreement, uh, the factions, Palestinians have said they'll only agree to disarmament if the Israeli forces withdraw. [00:12:27] Jayashree : Yeah. [00:12:27] Mehraj : Which I don't think is happening, so that's a moot point [00:12:33] Jayashree : And those are the headlines. [00:12:34] Abhinandan : Right. With that, we will tell you what today's Hafta is.It is, each of us has had at some point or the other an unpopular opinion. Of course, every opinion is unpopular among somebody or the other. But generally, in Hafta discussions, certain opinions stand out, so we'll discuss those one at a time. So let's start with the person who's joining us after the longest time, Meraj.So Meraj, what is your unpopular opinion that you're quite confident the rest of the panel will not agree with? [00:13:08] Mehraj : Uh, I mean, we have had discussions about this before also. Yeah. I remember back in the day, not, like, lengthy, but yeah, we have made this point, that one of the reasons, uh, for the problems that India faces now, social, economic, and increasingly administrative, one of the root causes of that is the idea of nationalism.[00:13:29] Abhinandan : Hmm. [00:13:29] Mehraj : And I don't mean in the sense of Hindu nationalism, but more in the, you know, the traditional sense of the term, what a nation means. [00:13:37] Abhinandan : Right. [00:13:37] Mehraj : And I'll just explain why I say that. So basically, when you talk about nationalism, the core belief of nationalism is that people become more equal, they become more free, and they become more modern when two things happen.One is that you kind of strip away their immediate communities and by extension their immediate identities, and then you coalesce them around a broader identity. That broader identity can be religion, it can be ethnicity, it can be, you know, it can be language and the like. And in, in case of l- very large nation states such as India, it's invariably a piece of p- a piece of geography, a particular geography, right?Mm-hmm. But with its attendant symbols, flags, myths, imagined history, how it came into being. Now, obviously this is necessary to build a nation state. You have to have that common thread to get, like, all these diverse groups of people pulling in somewhat of a same direction, and that's what the, you know, the founders of this nation tried to do.Some of this is obviously, I mean, you can make an argument and some of this is good, right? You know, you take, for example, caste inequality. Breaking down that caste inequality and supplanting it with something more egalitarian- Right ... you know, this idea of nationalism, that's obviously good. But there are two problems, right?One is that when you talk about this broader identity, this specific idea of nationalism, you want to gather people around, or, or at least the majority of them. So in the, if you start with the beginning of independent India in the Nehruvian, uh, ideal of nationalism, that, the foundation of that, that concept was you, you had, you know, broadly speaking, you had secularism, you had representative democracy, and you had social inequality in the broad sense of that word.Today, the powers that, you know, powers that be, they're building or recasting this idea around religion. That's why you have Hindu nationalism, you know? Secularism isn't, uh, a good enough thread to bring people around because other people have competing interests and that, that's disadvantageous to them, so this idea of Hindu nationalism.Now, whether it's the Nehruvian idea or it's the, you know, Hindu nationalism or vintage of it, when you implement it in a country as big and as diverse as India, it entails a few things. One is necessarily centralization. [00:15:59] Abhinandan : Hmm. [00:16:00] Mehraj : Because, you know, uh, and this is something, I mean, Anand would be very, uh, well-versed with this more than anybody else.If you look at the debates of the constituent assembly, they had these discussions, you know, whether India should be a purely federal state or whether it should be a unitary state, and then they kind of, uh, you know, concluded that we'll build this kind of a state which is sort of more, um, a, a kind of a, you know, mash of the two things.[00:16:26] Abhinandan : Hmm. [00:16:26] Mehraj : It'll have a federal character, but it'll be like a, with a strong center. So it couldn't be a true federation. Because the idea was that if you leave the federation to its own devices, over time they'll di- diverge, they have competing interests because they are so different And also at that time, [00:16:40] Abhinandan : and also at that time everybody was trying to do their own thing.If you in fact read Jose's book, nobody wanted to be a part of India. So if you gave them even that little bit of latitude, they'll say, "Chhodo, hum toh ... We will not be part of it." [00:16:50] Mehraj : Over time, yes. Exactly. So you had to have that centralization. Now that, that's the theory. What happens in reality? How do you implement it in reality?So you build this super structure of governance which is underpinned by this idea of, you know, uh, nationalism, and over time that gets more and more centralized. We have seen that happen with even political parties, right? Mm. When you started, you had these original leaders who held their own fiefs, and over time that power, you know, kind of was eroded, eroded, eroded.When we come to a time where it's practically, you know, you have a more or less a monarch- Got it ... in this country That- that's one part of it. The other part of it, uh, and this obviously creates social problems, economic problems, but the problems that in the immediate term that was sort of one of the reasons for this Gen Z movement, were the admins, what you would call like, so administrative problems, you know, administrative governance problems.And the reason for that is that part of this governance superstructure is the bureaucracy. And that bureaucracy by definition has to be kind of centralized. You have various layers of bureaucracy. You have the local bureaucracy, you have the state bureaucracy, then you have the central bureaucracy. But the way it works now, at least at this point of time is...Oh, I'll give you an example. So I'm sitting in Kashmir, right? My village, let's say I need like three, four things. I need a road, I need a pipeline for water, I need something else. What I need, obviously me, my people around, they know what I need, what will benefit us the most. But that decision of what we need is not entirely in our hands.Mm. Even if we get something, it's usually a bureaucrat, maybe say from Bihar or Chhattisgarh or somewhere else who'll make that decision. And instead of giving me the road, he'll fence off, off my graveyard. [00:18:30] Abhinandan : Mm. [00:18:31] Mehraj : Which I don't need at all, right? Mm. And I don't have a way to, you know, kind of challenge that because one, I don't know where that bureaucrat is sitting.I don't even know where his office is. Public has zero access to that. But you, you can't give that, uh... The idea was with the Panchayati Raj and everything was that these people will make those decisions themselves. But over time, like I said, this superstructure evolved in a way that you have to give these decisions to these people.Again, big difference- [00:18:58] Abhinandan : And also the planning commission played a very destructive role in that because the planning commission heavily decided what was even required at the most local levels. Mm. [00:19:06] Mehraj : Yeah. Because that was how the funds were tied. I mean, see, this is, this isn't entirely in a negative sense.Some of it is like if you create a country like this, it's necessary, right? Because you have to, like some states will be richer, some states will be poorer, some states will have conflicts, some won't have. So you'll always have to, you know, manage these resources around. And if you, you leave it to, like say for example, people in the south, they'll want all their tax revenues to be spent there.But you need some of that to spend- Right ... in the poorer states. So [00:19:31] Abhinandan : I- [00:19:32] Mehraj : So you, you do that. So that this superstructure of bureaucracy that you have built, it's become pra- practically unac- accountable, like I just gave you the example of, right? So is that more a- People are making decisions who don't- [00:19:43] Abhinandan : So, so Meraj, is that more a problem of nationalism as a concept, or is that more a question of just how we have evolved or rather, you know, not kept pace with how it should be evolved?'Cause, you know, someone who kind of does subscribe that bureaucracy plays an important and fairly competent part, Anand, you know, I'll... That we'll come to that. But that model has worked Practically, and I s- I think that's also because I embrace it with a practical point of view in Europe. Like Germany, you know, a lot of us may not know, like America is the, you know, most visible federal structure we see, that there's a lot of independence with governors of states, and there is certain centralization of certain powers, which now Trump is trying to challenge, but it's still very hard 'cause structurally there is a lot of independence those states have.But they see the value of being part of America. Like, the whole secession of Texas movement has been happening for the longest time, but most of Texans don't wanna secede because, dude, it makes more sense practically to be a part of the USA. Similarly, the amount of autonomy states or regions of Germany have, or even Italy for that matter, it's, it's probably even more than America.But they see the value in being a part of Germany even though they have that autonomy. So is it ... So that nationalism is there, and also of course it is not emotive, ˈki while Trump tries to do that. They allow two passports. I can have a German passport, I can have an Algerian passport. Of course they say, "Oh, you are, you're ˈsɪrf ˈhamaaɾeɪ hai Nationalism has become a, uh, uh, uh, kya kehte hai, uh, whistle, dog whistle.Matlab your passport is not your nationality. We don't know what is your nationality, first of all, because that depends on what Amit Shah and Modiji decide. But there is a practical value to that structure. We just have been very primitive minded in kind of keeping up with using it for a practical value and have made it into an emotive value.But it's [00:21:39] Mehraj : inevitable- That's what I'm coming to. That was- Yeah ... that is sort of the punchline, you know- Of course ... I was getting down to. So when I started, I said, uh, the particular exam I, uh, example I gave is large nation states like India- Mm ... right? So I should have said maybe non-European, non this thing, because the difference is in, in case of Germany and c- most European states, like which started this whole nation state thing, they were more or less very homogenous in that sense, right?Mm. Like, they had a, at least until very recently, they had a particular language, uh, largely they had a particular, you know, religion, ethnicity, culture. So they, they were homogenous in that sense, and that was true of America also until, like, very recently. Now what you are seeing even there is that backlash.The rise of white nationalism is partly a, uh, you know, a, a backlash around this because what, what, uh, globalization and what immigration has done is that that idea of nationalism is frayed, right? Mm. What does it mean to be British now, right? For example. Mm. What does it mean to be German? Is it just that you have a German passport or a British passport, or i- does it go deeper?And those discussions are happening now also. I- in India's case that, that, that discussion had to be had at the very inception because I, I, I've said this on Habta also, this is a continent pretending to be a country, right? So those, the problems, uh, that you have here are different from the problems you have there.And the, uh, so the, I, basically the, what was it I was coming down to is because nationalism in that sense of the word, like it was conceived in Europe to begin with and then it was supplanted in, uh, the, in the post-colonial world, wasn't going to work in a place like India. Which is to basically to say that the i- very idea of India as one country was a bad idea.[00:23:27] Jayashree : Yeah. But, and would you say now though, like nationalism is inherently like anti-federal in the context of India? [00:23:35] Mehraj : It can't be any other way, right? Yeah. So you, uh, even in, if you go back to 18th, 19th century Europe, the na- the way the nationalism was cultivated, I mean, the great example is Italy. [00:23:46] Anand: Mm. [00:23:46] Mehraj : People within 50 miles of each other didn't even s- uh, understand each other.[00:23:50] Anand: Yeah. [00:23:50] Mehraj : They spo- supposedly spoke the same Italian language, even in France, but they didn't understand each other. It was different, the culture was different. How they build that over time is because they had a, like, they had that ethnic, you know, that, uh, familiarity with each other. They had a bro- broadly, a, sort of a similar culture.Then they used schools at a national language. The Italian language or the French language is not actually the French language or the Italian language. It, it's a very artificial construct. Same way, uh, people are, have been trying here to, you know, impose Hindi. Mm. They did the ... Which is very d- again, that is the difference between those people and, uh, like India.Out there you could do that. You could cultivate that broader official French because most people were around that. Out here you can't impose Hindi because Tamil and Hindi, like, really don't go together, right? Mm. Or in the Northeast and Kashmir. So those, those problems will persist as long as you do that.And obviously it is anti-federal because, I mean, by, almost by definition, because you have to bring people together around that one idea. Yeah. And if you leave federations to each other, like right now, espec- like, say, in, uh, Tamil Nadu, that whole, uh, you know, debate about Dravidian culture, Dravidian language, Hindi imposition, that shows you where the fractures are And, uh, I think one of the sort of the, you know, what do you, what do you call, one of the, one of the geniuses of the whole RSS BJ Movement is they realized that the, the Nehruvian basis of that nationalism weren't very strong.Hmm. Secularism is great as an idea. Um, you know, uh, if representative democracy is great at an idea, but to build that nation together, to merge that together, it needs something very, very strong. What, what, what is, like, strong, like, to kind of bring a Ke- a Keralite or a Tamil together with a person in UP?Hmm. Religion. It's always been, like- [00:25:40] Song : Yeah ... [00:25:40] Mehraj : going back 5,000 years. So that's what they played on, and that's, that's part of their success. What part of that- And again, uh, just one more point I'll add to this. All of this would not have been possible if we didn't have these, you know, modern technologies. This was made possible by, you know, trains, cars, mass media, and most importantly, schools.Sure. If you don't have these formal schools and colleges and universities- Because there is a- ... this, this doesn't work at all ... [00:26:06] Abhinandan : common curriculum then, right? So- Yeah ... what part of that do you think, Anand, you agree with, what disagree with, and what is inevitable so it doesn't matter whether we agree or not?[00:26:17] Jayashree : Are, are you gonna punch Mairaj through the [00:26:19] Abhinandan : screen? [00:26:21] Anand: And there are too, too many thoughts there, so I will pick one by one, some of which I will miss because I- Sure ... can't, can't recall everything. Uh, yes, on the question of centralization, uh, because there were fissiparous tendencies at the time of the birth of the, uh, independent Indian state, the, uh, we chose, deliberately chose a quasi-federal structure, which is only federal to an extent.So, uh, and that suited the structure of Indian state. Uh, uh- And the constitutional scheme is very quasi-federal. We are not federal in the sense of a classical formation like the Ameri- like US. So that ship has sailed. So, uh, it is a kind of historical decision, and we are seeing different ramifications of it now.Now, on the question of, uh, uh-- Now, theoretical questions about nationalism are old. Uh, the critique of it emerged, some of which Meraz touched upon, like, uh, say in, uh, in theoretical ways, Benedict Anderson's idea of nations being imagined communities. But, uh, but there are also counter currents to it that they are lived communities.If people say that nationalism is a primitive idea, so are other ideas primitive. A lot of good side of human nature is also very primitive, so, and, and human beings, uh, say this urge to identify themself into a grouping which is territorially marked as nations are, territory, uh, forming a large part of what a nation state is.And in Europe, the empires gave way to nation states. And, uh, in India also, though there are people who say that there was a geographical conception of India as a nation state because the very idea of, say, pil- pilgrimage across the Indian, uh, say, subcontinent, uh, th- that religiosity was the geographical construct formed a part of national imagination.But the colonial interruption and then the revival of that national imagination through national movements and the idea of Indianness, that also-- And after independence, we see the state push for nation building through symbols, through mass communication, and a lot of other things. So we have come at a stage where, mm, the National identity for a state, for a state formation here, for the justification of Indian state is a non-negotiable.It's indispensable now. So, uh, I think it's not only a one party's project that is something that has a na- national political consensus among major players. Uh, the other thing about bureaucracy, I think that, uh, what you replace bureaucracy is also bureaucracy. [00:29:53] Song : Hmm. [00:29:53] Anand: So, uh, bu- bureaucracy is only replaced by other form of bureaucracy.So, uh, because layers of decision-making, delegated decisions, whether it is in as a small social organization like a family to a very small company to a very small organization, there would inevitably be some kind of bureaucracy involved. Uh, it is just that our, uh, the colonial apparatus we had a ready-made state structure of bureaucracy, which we tried to adapt to development administration, more humane administration.But the, uh, hardware remained the same. The-- We tried to have a different software of that administrative bureaucracy in post-independent India with delegated decision-making. But this, uh, the structure is such that the hierarchical, that the centralized decision-making is that there. I also think that their bureaucracy and government service of different kinds is the only sphere which is dealing with answers.All, uh, politicians, political class deal with management of questions and answers. Uh, the civil society organizations, media, think tanks deal with questions, deal with what is wrong, or they are more interested in misgov- governance, what is wrong with the governance. Hmm. But I think bureaucracy is the only sphere of, uh, activity, maybe there are others, only would be, uh, an overstatement, which is del-- which is interested with providing answers.Hmm. With, uh, it is, uh, and, uh, I am very, uh, sure that people who are raising lot of questions, if you put them in tho- those positions, the, their answers would be as garbled, uh, as very confusing because the amount of challenges that they deal with and pressures and as well as the magnitude of things, and of course, the limits to their competence, the limits to their ability and knowledge and efficiency, uh, all that Uh, I think come up with a kind of very, say, mixed results.Some are good results, some are not do- that good. So I think- [00:32:24] Abhinandan : So there's an inevitability to it, I think that's- [00:32:26] Anand: I mean, I think that is the on- means up- questions are always interesting. Questions, y- y- you see the most crooked godmen and babas, they rise because they r- r- ask existential questions, "Who are we?Who are we?" And people come to them. But the moment they They start giving answers. They are less interesting. They, they are less interesting and only then devotees go to them. Good. And they are not then very appealing. [00:32:55] Abhinandan : The- then the mass listening goes, "Okay, let's go to Jayashree," because we also want to come to Jayashree and Anand's unpopular opinions.Yes, Jayashree. [00:33:01] Mehraj : And Rasheed, I just wanted to make a quick, uh, point, and this is sort of, uh, outside of what we are discussing. Uh, uh, Anand made a good point about that, you know, we retain that superstructure, the bureaucratic structure of the colonial system. I think that in India, Pakistan, pretty much most, uh, post-colonial societies, that was the original sin.You should have dismantled that, like, root and branch, and actually given power back to the people. But again, you couldn't do that in a place like India because then you wouldn't be able to build up- Yeah. Be- because who's the people- ... the nation that you wanted to [00:33:37] Abhinandan : build ... in [00:33:37] Mehraj : Hyderabad? Especially- [00:33:38] Abhinandan : Yeah, because who would the people be?In Hyderabad, the people would be the Nizam. In Kashmir, the people would be Hari Singh. Yeah. They would-- There were no people. Let's, let's face it. In India- And that- ... there were no people who, who had power. [00:33:48] Mehraj : Exactly. And the function of nationalism is that it turns people into this undifferentiated mass, right?Who, who is the, who is the people? It's this undifferentiated mass from Kashmir to Kanyakumari, Gujarat to Arunachal who we represent. And then, I mean, that, that's how you build a nation. And if you had dismantled this structure and given people to each community, each state, each, you know, locality, then you wouldn't be able to build this.Maybe you would, but it would have been a much, much, much difficult choice. So this is not really a value judgment of whether it was a good thing or a bad thing. But if you- It's an analysis ... look back and, you know, analyze- It's just- ... maybe that was a mistake. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. [00:34:25] Abhinandan : Jayashree? [00:34:26] Mehraj : That was the second mistake.First was, like, building India the way, the way it is. [00:34:30] Jayashree : Yeah. I mean, I broadly, I would... I find very little to disagree with, with Meraj. I think, um, the entire mythical idea of a nation where we stand in the world, and I also do feel nationalism has sort of outlived its usefulness. At one point it sort of meant this belonging without othering or whatever, but currently, I mean, it's artificial constructs like a constitutional identity or, you know, a national framework that we are all part of, and I don't know how useful that is anymore.And also, uh, I think it's like a very childish urge. It's like saying my football team is better than your football team, that kind of flag-waving or- That's not childish, Jayashree, [00:35:07] Abhinandan : please [00:35:08] Jayashree : I have more to say about that [00:35:11] Abhinandan : I'm [00:35:11] Jayashree : bringing in all the unpopular opinions. It's like football fans get so blinkered because everything follows from my team is better than all other teams.And I know I'm sort of mixing up nationalism and patriotism, but I think that is also how it broadly kind of plays out in my head- [00:35:23] Abhinandan : Hmm ... [00:35:23] Jayashree : in the way I see it a- around me today. It's like- National plays out, nationalism plays out the same way as a football fan, but with greater consequences 'cause you're sacrificing thingslike tolerance and compassion for your football team. Like, how dare anyone insults the coach of my team? I will do anything for my football team. I will abuse anyone who abuses my football team. I will kill people who dislike my football team. I will, you know, oppress a group who does not support my football team enough.So I think when you flip it like that, it is, it is childish. It is, uh- [00:35:54] Abhinandan : Yeah. Al- although I do think that this is taking the most extreme view and framing your entire argument with the extreme view in the opposition- Yeah ... which is a straw man argument. I think you can have a favorite football team and not want to kill people for it.I mean, we had examples of- [00:36:07] Jayashree : No, no, no, no. So I'm saying it can be like that, just that when you flip the script to sort of mimic the same kind of instincts that would follow you to support a football team. I'm not saying one is the other. I'm saying it is- [00:36:19] Abhinandan : Hmm ... [00:36:20] Jayashree : similar to me in that it doesn't actually mean anything more.[00:36:22] Abhinandan : Right. [00:36:23] Jayashree : I don't see what more it could mean. [00:36:25] Abhinandan : Okay. What is [00:36:29] Mehraj : your unpopular opinion? And of course, actually speaking, Barcelona is the best team in the world, so. [00:36:31] Abhinandan : So it does There you go. [00:36:34] Jayashree : The [00:36:35] Abhinandan : group being- My unpopular [00:36:35] Jayashree : opinions are pouring in today. [00:36:37] Abhinandan : Yeah. [00:36:37] Anand: So what is your unpopular opinion, Anand? I mean, people, people can clash with, uh, the neighborhood teams also.[00:36:43] Abhinandan : Right. [00:36:44] Anand: And, and they need a community, a kind of grouping. People, uh, p- people in grounds, they clash with, uh, the two teams clash. They are just from different neighborhoods. [00:36:55] Abhinandan : Yeah. Sometimes they're from the same ... And so the Newslaundry people are playing cricket sometimes, the way Sonu, Anand, and Ashish, and all start fighting with each other.I'm like, "Hello?" Sorry, not Anand, Sonu, uh, um, and, uh, who all play? Who are the ones who are always fighting, [00:37:10] Anand: Amit? [00:37:11] Abhinandan : Basant. Kamlesh. Kamlesh is always So, so that doesn't matter. You can be the same organization. In case you're wondering how people in Newslaundry play cricket, imagine. And they say I'm a dictator.They play cricket in the afternoons. Anyway, so Anand, what is your unpopular opinion? I just like to tell you, you weren't here yesterday for the Subscribers Take. There was one subscriber letter who had a very polite but sarcastic letter about your defense of our IFS officers or the diplomats who defended, uhAnand, what did they defend? I don't know. They, that press ... Oh, that Norwegian journalist. So they were saying, Anand will always defend the diplomats. Anyway, so I think your unpopular opinion is in, in that zone only, right? [00:37:53] Anand: No. [00:37:54] Abhinandan : Oh, [00:37:54] Anand: it isn't. It, it is not. Okay. Like, uh, about that, uh, uh, okay, and also I didn't defend that particular person anyway that- HmmI was not there, so I don't know the letter. Hmm. Uh, my unpopular opinion, it, it is not even unpopular. Uh, it is in, in fact, a popular opinion. Okay. So, uh, and, uh, mm, it is, uh, I don't know whether it's popular or not popular, but it is actually one pub- one issue on which I have, uh, changed my view. Hmm. This is the only, only issue on which I have slightly changed my view in last few years.[00:38:30] Abhinandan : Interesting. [00:38:31] Anand: So a few years ago, I had written a piece that there can be limited lateral entry into government service. So, uh, my, uh, my unpopular in, uh, opinion is a bit narrow and not- Hmm ... means, um, the philosophical idea that, uh, Mehraj came up with, which, which was a good idea. [00:38:52] Song : Hmm. [00:38:52] Anand: So, uh, but it's very narrow practical things I am talking about.Hmm. That, uh, so I had said that some degree of lateral entry could be allowed, uh, limited only in, um, the higher civil service. So I had written a piece. Now I think, uh, uh, I was wrong. [00:39:12] Abhinandan : Okay. [00:39:12] Anand: Uh, and, uh, I was wrong because, uh, I didn't, uh, account for a few things. And, um, it was opposed, uh, uh, for, uh, s- say circumventing the reservation route and, uh, affirmative action.That is one ground. But my objection to lateral entry is not that. Uh, it, it can be that also, but, uh, my thing is that we see hiring in, say, think tanks or even international organizations like UN or consultancy organizations, or even, uh, say, media organizations at the top level. So I think that, uh, if, if you allow a window of, say, lateral entry into government service, then this, uh, thing about people like us People like us or people who are, say, just born in a metropolitan city and who got more chance of social networking, social connections, and, uh, also the elite circulation, a kind of elite circulating and collecting, uh, someone like them and placing them into higher government services.And that puts a lot-- Uh, even if the competitive exam system may not be, uh, the perfect one, but it at least gives a chance to everyone, everyone to have a sort at that, uh, in, in common standards and common evaluation, even if the subjectivity kicks in, in the subjective papers, not, not the objective papers, that, that is for everyone.Because the examiner is not knowing who you are. There is a degree of anonymity. [00:41:08] Song : Mm-hmm. [00:41:08] Anand: So, uh, but if you allow, say, 10, 15 seats to anyone. So I think that people like us syndrome and-- because I think, uh, with my experience at the top in a lot of these organizations, people, whatever their pretensions are, they are very classist.They are classist like, uh, he doesn't talk like that, he does- he's, he's not like that. He's not someone we identify with or something like. So, uh, that barrier would come, that kind of people like, uh, us barrier, social connections, people coming from a repo- remote area who have no social connections, people who were just born in a better place, a more connected place, a better educational institution.So this. I also think that there is a lot of, uh, now, um, grudge among, say, old elite institutions like St. Stephen's and all that, that their, their students are not getting into these services more as they used to do in '70s and '60s because the competition has now b- uh, got so mu- uh, say, intense and the grassroot has awoken to the challenge, uh, so, uh, so much that, uh, they are finding it very, very tough.So there is a classist grudge against also them. I see that, uh, uh, they may pack it in different, uh, language, but that is there. [00:42:39] Song : Hmm. [00:42:39] Anand: So, uh, that's why I think, uh, I have revised that opinion that, uh, lateral entry is not, uh ... And the experts that you want to hire in for certain domain expertise, you can get them within the service because they are doctors, engineers, and very hi- highly skilled people there.You need to train them. Or for some very specific posts you can have a single person expert, but not as a system that lateral entry we will have. So I think it, it is not a very unpopular opinion. There are a lot of supporters of this idea, but that is it. [00:43:13] Abhinandan : You have [00:43:13] Jayashree : any views on this? Sir, can I ask a question, though?Like, how successful has it been so far in India, though, this entire lateral... I mean, they haven't actually hired that many people through that method, right? They have hired [00:43:21] Anand: tw- 25 people they hired two, three years back. [00:43:25] Abhinandan : Oh, that's all. Well, I mean, if you were to take the example of economic liberalization, the commerce secretary being, you know, Montek Singh Ahluwalia, who is considered one of the key players of the whole liberalization process, he was a lateral entry, and that was a very, very important and key position.It, it was a, a huge change. It was like a river changing course, like, and a river the size of Brahmaputra changing course. So there have been some very important aspects. Aadhar was led by a lateral entry. [00:43:51] Anand: Manmohan Singh. [00:43:52] Abhinandan : Manmohan Singh himself. Yeah, absolutely. So I think there have been very significant lateral entries.Anything that where something very huge was to happen, I think lateral entry has basically ... I, I don't know, like, I have a position on it, but yeah, it's, it's... There've been a few cases where, I mean, depending on whether you think it was a success or not, because the counterfactual is very hard to, kind of, prove.But yeah, it has been big. I, I have no view on this as of now. Do you, Me- Meheraj or [00:44:19] Jayashree : Jayashree? No, I feel like mostly, um, I think, I think what you think, which is that, I mean, it should be a rare exception, but when I do see cases where there's a very specific subject matter is needed and the person can't be avoided, and, and you can't appoint this person as a consultant or through a contractual role, then sure, I do see value in doing it.But in a very rare sort of circumstance. Like, I, I wouldn't say I know enough about it to really comment on length. [00:44:43] Abhinandan : I mean, I, I w- I have a suggestion. I mean, I, I think there is a better way of doing it while retaining the pool of people who have been trained in the administrative services, which is how many Western countries do it.Uh, I know Britain does it. Uh, you have to interview for that post. Hmm. So it's like if there is a... It's not like, but if tomorrow I'm, you know, labor secretary, tomorrow the minister says, "Okay, now this area you come," that, that's it. There's a post that's opened- Yes ... all you bureaucrats can apply for it. You will interview it just like any job you are interviewing for.Yeah. And whoever is the most best among you will be picked for that. So I think there is a way of retaining it within that pool because there's no doubt there are some very smart people in the bureaucracy But the reasons why they're appointed is just ad hoc. So there is a way of getting that process while retaining the pool.I don't know if it's the best idea, but it, it's possible. [00:45:40] Anand: There is also, uh, like in US, uh, the, uh, there was a study done, the, among the advantaged and disadvantaged groups, and the elite and ... So, so the examination system for university entry. Now, uh, the, when the question pattern was that it, uh, m-more valued articulation, sophistication, then the advantaged groups did better.[00:46:12] Song : Hmm. [00:46:12] Anand: And when the questions were more information-based, though it required some bit of writing, but more, uh, uh, information-based, more rigorous reading and this, then the disadvantaged groups did better. Because in the social niceties and the way of speaking or s-some kind of confidence that you ca- Mmcarry in, in certain social circles, they, the advantage groups definitely will do [00:46:39] Abhinandan : better. They perform [00:46:39] Anand: better. Better. So, uh, I-I think, uh, uh, the nature of recruitment has changed because, uh, also because of lot of... Uh, though there is a lot of things that had to be written now also, and there is some advantage for that i-in the examination structure.But I think, uh, many bureaucrats who did, uh, get into the service, like Mani Shankar Aiyar or it is, they will find very difficult to qualify now. [00:47:06] Abhinandan : Mm. [00:47:06] Anand: So, and, uh, [00:47:08] Abhinandan : y- Uh, yeah, I think that's true, not for a lot of things. A lot of things in the '60s and '70s are because of- [00:47:13] Mehraj : Mm ... [00:47:14] Abhinandan : job pedigree and nothing else. Miraj, you have view on this before we move on to Jayashree's unpopular opinion?[00:47:18] Mehraj : Just a broader point about, you know, again, this goes back to un-accountability and discretion. If you, like, add discretion, what lateral entry basically is, it gives the government discretion to appoint, like, people they choose. And in India's case, like we've been talking about, the more discretion you give, the worse the outcome.Uh, but, uh, again, the, I mean, the sort of the solution to this is either you don't do this, you remove discretion from the, from the system and make it like, uh, an unsettled revenue. So like, have certain processes. You have interviews, you have exams that kind of take away some of the discretion. Or ironically, the other way to do this is to just get rid of the whole system and make everything discretionary, right?A new government comes in, they appoint all the people, whoever they choose, in all the decision-making, uh, positions, whether in bureaucracy or, you know, elsewhere. What that does is it limits that point of accountability in, in one place. The elected government is accountable for all the decisions. Right now what we have is you have the government, who obviously are accountable because you choose them, and then there's a bureaucracy who do, m-most of the time, do their own thing, knowing that this government will be gone in like three years, four years, five years, and then they don't have accountability because you can't, like, elect them or un-elect them, right?And the O- obviously the other, uh, places, America has sort of a, like at the higher level, they have this kind of a system where they, even the top bureaucrats are appointed by the government directly, right? Discretionary appointments. On the other side, you have the example of China, where they have for bureaucracy this very highly competitive exam.But then once people come out of that exam, it's not like, uh, out here, like they become sort of small feudal lords with their own fiefdoms and they do whatever they please. So out there, I mean, a- as far as I understand, like they get a person, uh, obviously because it's a strenuous exam, so they come out of it, and they'll place him in, in a place like, say, in a village, and they give them a target.We need the GDP of this village to grow twofold in X, X number of years. They do this, okay, you are promoted. They don't do it, okay, you go somewhere else and try again. Or if you don't... At least that's the way I understand it. But the, out there, again, the accountability lies with that single super structure called the Communist Party, right?And obviously that has its own advantages and disadvantages, but I'm saying that's one system that... And if you look at China, where it's gone in the last 30, 40 years, clearly that system is working more than it's not working. [00:49:50] Anand: So- Yeah, um- ... just to close one thing, that, uh, what Meraj said was the, means, uh- The phenomenon of permanent executive that bureaucrats are- Yesthat government, governments will come and go, but we are the permanent executive. But, uh, uh, the point of discretion in lateral entry, some interviews happen, but the, those interviews themself are a very, say, discretionary thing, means- Sure ... interview board can be very discretionary. Like I'm giving an example of, say, college professor appointments.So for eligibility you need to clear the NET examinations, like national eligibility. But to, in universities, both the cabals of right and left, now right more than left, earlier left. Now there are, uh ... And then also, uh, even if it is not right, uh, right and left, just because, uh, now there are 1 lakh, 2 lakh people who are qualified with, uh, that, uh, NET eligibility.But, uh, uh, you have to appoint, say, 50 people. Now, there are lakh people with the same eligibility. How will you decide? You, uh, you don't, uh, take an examination and again, you just have an interview, and that interview is very discretionary. Means who, who will you pick? Who will... So, uh, means, uh, someone who is carrying vegetables to your house and, uh, making your family happy with his PhD, uh, and doing PhD with you, you can appoint him.So- [00:51:23] Abhinandan : So- Yeah ... I mean, wherever there's interview, there is a level of discretion as long as it's institutionalized, there's a mechanism for it. Mm-hmm. In, in lateral entry there is no mechanism. Mm-hmm. In fact, it's not that this is the board that's going to interview everybody. Yeah. So I mean, it's just, so that's why it's ad hoc.Yes, Jayashree, what is your unpopular opinion? [00:51:40] Jayashree : Mine is very simple and a little flippant. So my opinion is on travel. Like, okay, I think travel is fun. I think for a vast majority of people, including me, it's enjoyable. There's new place, new food, beautiful sight, whatever. You choose to travel to a place because you get a pleasure from the experiences that you have, whatever.But also, I think travel is a hedonistic and consumeristic activity that has, in the public consciousness, acquired this aura of being something greater and more noble It's ... See, like if you buy a new TV or a new car or a new pair of shoes, it does not ascribe the sense of nobility that I feel like travel has given, even though they are, in my opinion, equally hedonistic and consumeristic.And look, there's nothing wrong with any of this. Like, everything gives you pleasure, but none of those things has been endowed with this aura of nobility. It's like people think, there is this thing that t- travel elevates your mind, it makes you a better version of yourself. It's in this made-up hierarchy of society where the noblest form of consumption is now travel, and I just do not think it's the case.I think it is as good or as bad as buying clothes or handbags or whatever it is that gives you, that gives you enjoyment. I- And you spend, you can enjoy, that's fine. Some people choose to spend differently. You are not better than them. And I think, I mean, travel for pleasure is a mark of privilege. It's what elites like me can do.It's not something what the mass majority does. Um, and elites also have their own kind of hierarchies. It's dependent on income and class, the kind of travel, the destination, the experiences. So my issue is this entire aura of nobility. It's ... The side effect is that it also becomes this kind of consumerism that people like to show off endlessly.Like, you know, I buy my shoes, I buy a bag, whatever, you might show off about it, but not endlessly in the way that travel is showed off. Mm. It's correlated to being more worldly, more experienced. Maybe that's not the intention when you talk about it, but that is how it comes across, and social media makes it worse.So yeah, I just think travel is not clocked as the same form of consumerism that I think a lot of other spendy things are. Uh. And look, maybe one out of 1,000 people get, obtain what is that nobility that is ascribed to travel. But all of us are not Anthony Bourdain, and I think for most of us, you just travel, you have fun, you go on holiday, you eat.You don't become this wiser, more- [00:53:56] Abhinandan : So I [00:53:57] Jayashree : think the- ... evolved version of yourself. So ... [00:53:58] Abhinandan : the, the word you're using is you become noble. I, I'm not sure you become noble. I mean, of course I could not disagree more with you, Yeshri. [00:54:05] Jayashree : I had a, I had a bad feeling that you [00:54:08] Abhinandan : wouldn't. Although I hate travel now- [00:54:10] Jayashree : Yeah ... [00:54:10] Abhinandan : and if I can help it, I don't leave Delhi.Uh, but when I was young, uh, I mean, I've probably traveled in this country more than anybody I know, uh, and I always say that with a boast. Uh, but I definitely think if you were to read, uh, Megasthenes, who was a traveler, you know? [00:54:28] Anand: Uh, Megasthenes. [00:54:29] Abhinandan : You know, their- [00:54:30] Anand: Fan Yan ... [00:54:30] Abhinandan : uh, uh, views, Xuanzang, or these people, rather than let's say- Al-Birunithe king who was just sitting at the throne. [00:54:37] Anand: Hmm. [00:54:38] Abhinandan : I think it gives you a confidence which nothing can give you. Hmm. I think with the internet, you can get- knowledge in so many other ways, just from experiencing things by watching, reading, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, but in the absence of the internet, and even today, going to a place makes you understand things way better than reading 100 books about it can.Uh, you meet people, you understand things way better than you could by just reading those books. I think it is a source. It's like saying, and I think it's true, but that doesn't mean it's not valuable. Education is a privilege. [00:55:15] Jayashree : Hmm. [00:55:15] Abhinandan : So just because it's a privilege doesn't mean it's bad. [00:55:19] Jayashree : No, no, no- You know?Of course, it's like- I just think, I feel like it has been, I just think it's been sort of romanticized to a point where it's treated as a, like a moral virtue rather than just another way to spend time and money. [00:55:29] Abhinandan : No, it's not a moral virtue, but it's an asset. It's like, it's like education. Our education is not a moral virtue.I mean, we've had a, it was Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan, right, who never g- had formal education, right? [00:55:38] Anand: He had, [00:55:39] Abhinandan : I think. Uh, who, uh, or Anga- uh, uh, Rajagopalachari? Uh- [00:55:42] Anand: Yeah, I think that, uh, Tamil Nadu's, uh- In [00:55:45] Abhinandan : Tamil Nadu, uh, what- Anna. [00:55:46] Anand: Mm ... [00:55:47] Abhinandan : he never went to any school, but he was very educated. But so, but I, I don't ... I think it's a privilege.It's like saying going to school is a privilege, and therefore, there's a nobility associated. But oh, my God, I mean, I think nothing can educate you better than going to a place. I mean, I've read so many books about the Northeast, but driving to each of those states, staying in each village, a- and I think it's a source of huge confidence.You can, you can say, "I've been there. I know what it's like." Now, you can't say, "I've lived there and I know those people," but even purely from just participating in a discussion about something If you've been there, it makes you a lot better informed. That's all. I, uh, the me- See, I, [00:56:29] Jayashree : I don't disagree with you at [00:56:30] Abhinandan : all.I just feel like- But, oh, sorry, just one thing. At my age, I hate it. I hate... I'd love to drive anywhere, which is why I love traveling in India. Mm. I think airports are the worst inventions on Earth. Uh, I, I'm short-tempered at the best of times. At an airport- Mm ... I'm willing to club someone- What a, [00:56:45] Jayashree : what shocking revelations, [00:56:46] Abhinandan : Jasjeetto death. I cannot, I hate airports. So the, if, if they could make it possible to drive anywhere, I'd only be traveling, but yeah, I hate flying. [00:56:55] Jayashree : See, I just feel like, so if I tell somebody, "Look, oh, I spent a lakh or whatever on this trip," and then it's, like, worth it because travel has that kind of cultural prestige or whatever that it carries.If I spend the same amount of movie... uh, the same amount of money on, like, music lessons or, you know, therapy, or been taking a sabbatical because I just don't want to work for, like, five months, whatever, those are questioned in a way that travel is not, only because I feel like travel is treated as being more otherworldly than any other pursuit I may pursue.So that is where I'm sort of... Yeah, that's where I'm incoherently sort of coming from. [00:57:30] Abhinandan : Um, what about... what, what does a person sitting in Kashmir say- ... who must be experiencing so many travelers who come to say, "Wow, Kashmir," and say the same thing? Is that, "I mean, that's the, I mean, that's the, I mean, that's the..."[00:57:43] Jayashree : Yeah. Whereas this might be our first fight if you disagree with me, but it's fine. That's what it's for. [00:57:48] Mehraj : I mean, it's, uh... I mean, I don't agree or disagree in that sense. I think it's more about Jasjeet's, uh, saying is sort of more a function of the times we live in, right? Mm. When everything, especially the post-social media age, where everything is travel.Even travel or even eating out or even just, you know, just existing as such is become a consumerist activity, right? It's an activity rather than something done for its own sake. You are traveling because you want to post on social media, you want to have that, you know, that status among your peer group.You want to boast about it and you want to post pictures. That, that aspect of it is there. The other aspect, obviously, is, which we've been experiencing to our detriment, is over-tourism, right? And that, that has its own problems. Mm. People like going everywhere. But fundamentally, travel, I think is, is, is, is an, is an amazing thing.I mean, uh, the, about that part, I agree with Abin in that there's nothing better than experiencing something firsthand. I mean, I come from a place, I mean, if I hadn't gone out, it, it's that whoever made a thing, right? If you are limited to one place, however educated you are, how much you read, you think, okay, you, you know better than everybody else.Then you step out of that place for a bit, and then you realize, okay, there's, there's a much, much, much bigger world outside. And then that not only kind of educates you in that sense, it also- Mm ... sort of, uh, kind of makes you humble, right? Mm. It sort of, you know, gives you that spiritual purity, that moral, moral kind of, you know- I don't know, a moral clarity about where you exist in the broader scheme of things.So I think travel is amazing that way. But again, what Jayashree is pointing to, I, that part I agree with. This whole idea of travel as just another consumerist activity- I think travel as tourism [00:59:37] Abhinandan : for [00:59:37] Mehraj : example- ... that's kind of been taken to a bit, you know, too far. [00:59:39] Abhinandan : Yeah, travel as tourism. Like, for example, you know- Mmwhat you were saying, Jayashree, when I w- was shooting, uh, this documentary on water, I, you know, I wasn't going to Kashmir and staying at the, uh, Khyber Lodge or whatever it is, you know? Uh, I had to really stay in places which did not even have a hotel. You know, I had to stay in places where the separation from the bedroom, which was not just me, there was me and eight other people sleeping there.And the bathroom, the wall didn't go all the way to the ceiling. The wa- wa- so that means fucking you were sleeping, there was a s- s- six and a half foot high wall with a three-foot gap. A s- you could smell everything. There was ... Nothing was personal. So travel is not just going for touristy purposes. Mm. But me traveling to all those villages in Gujarat, in Rajasthan, it gave me a perspective which I never would have had growing up in Delhi and Dehradun the way I did.Me, I feel, um- Like, for example, the biggest, the biggest eye-opener for me was when I was in Arunachal. And because, again, where we were shooting there were no hotels, so the village, uh, headman, you know, gave us a room in his, uh, house, and, uh, fed us yak meat without any spices, which is a I can't ever eat that again.It is just the worst tasting thing I've ever had. Uh, because how can you have such heavy red meat without any spices, yeah? It's like just eating, I don't know. Anyway, but the point is that- [01:01:04] Jayashree : Yeah, so I think, I think maybe you're right then. I should clarify it as travel as tourism is what I'm specifically there for.[01:01:10] Abhinandan : Hmm. '[01:01:11] Jayashree : Cause that, that would make more sense. That that is specifically what I think I'm talking about. Maybe not the rest of it. [01:01:16] Abhinandan : Yeah. What do you think, Anand? Do you like travel? You don't seem the kind who enjoys travel much. [01:01:21] Anand: No, I like, but I don't have money for it. Achcha, [01:01:23] Abhinandan : okay. [01:01:23] Anand: So, uh- So, uh, I think what, uh, uh, the, uh, locating it in the social media age, so, uh, I think the repulsion she's talking about also comes from, uh, uh, commoditization of tra- uh, travel and tourism.Like, uh, people, uh, share more about places than they actually know. And, uh, it is not, the place is not important in their social media posts. The fact of them being there is important. So it is a very narcissistic way of putting, like, like even some journalists, so if they, if they go to some place to cover something or something, uh, like, uh, and what they are, uh, going there for some, say, fact ga- gathering, news gathering, some reporters or something.So, uh, i- in social media posts, many times you find that is not important. The fact that they are standing there is important. Hmm. So I am, uh, so look at me is more important, and that has a repulsive, uh, effect on the very idea Of people move, moving. The second thing is that just like movies and, uh, say books, that now there is so much marketing of, say, movies and books that you know that, uh, mm, without watching the movie that, uh, you feel that you know, uh, what is this movie about.A- and you feel that you have watched this movie, you have read that book because there are so much book promotion, so many author talk. Similarly, with social media, all, uh, this, uh, consumerist, uh, mm, circuit around traveling that you know that, uh, okay, even if you have not gone to the place, you think that I have gone to the place, I, I have traveled all this.You may not be actually having the experience of it. So that, uh, repulsion in the social media age that ... not repulsion to traveling, but people who are traveling. [01:03:35] Abhinandan : To the, the prism, yeah. So- I think I did not ... I, I don't know whether Scroll did the story on this. There was a story I read in a news platform.There are actually agents, or maybe it was an international news plat- ... There are agencies which make a sh- a reel for you, which as if you've traveled. You haven't. [01:03:52] Jayashree : Hmm. [01:03:53] Abhinandan : What? They use- No, I'm, I'm [01:03:54] Jayashree : not surprised, but I've never heard of [01:03:55] Abhinandan : this ... they use basically, um, um, g- graphics and, you know, green screens that you basically stay at home for eight days and say, "I've gone to Switzerland," or wherever.Oh, really? And this agency will curate a full photo dump for you in their studio as if you've actually gone there. You're walking in the streets. Hmm. The agencies offer this service. I don't know where I read this story. I forget now. I think [01:04:17] Anand: with AI you can do it is- yourself also. [01:04:20] Abhinandan : And now I'm sure- Yesbut this is a few years ago. Yeah. There were, there, there were, you know, very niche, uh, agencies that used to offer this service to curate a basically photo dump for you for social media- For- ... on a holiday which you haven't actually taken It's like, [01:04:34] Jayashree : yeah, they, it is similar, not similar, but like I have this issue with reading also.Like reading has become so fetishized in the way that tourism has been also. So on TikTok and so on, there's a subset of people who, um, they only read dialogue in books, and that is how they read. They skip anything that is description because that just adds to length and like who has, who has time for it?So reading is now measured as I read a book, but I only read anything that was in inverted commas. I skip the rest of it and that is- [01:05:02] Anand: Yeah ... [01:05:02] Jayashree : so it's like whatever shortcut you can take to get the job done. Mm. [01:05:05] Anand: So what she's also saying is pro- performative traveling. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Performative kind of traveling that, uh, uh, traveling for the sake of public performance.So, uh, that is one thing. Uh, I, one thing about, uh, dialogues is that the, that, uh, uh, in movies and novels, the serious novels, serious movie, or even any kind of movies, the, along with, uh, mm, the songs that, uh, the actors and actresses break into on the streets, the dialogues are the most unnatural things. So, uh, who talks those gray profound lines at home in family?Mm. Who, who talks like that? Means in novels also you see very articulate people and talking among themselves in very, say, profound ways like this and that, very philosophical themes. And even if that novel is very realistically rooted, the very, uh, those conversations f- uh, seem very artificial because I, uh, actually from the kind of s- social background I come from, my social settings, no, no, nobody talks like that.People talk at home in, say, monosyllables or something like that or say. So, uh, why, when people are just reading conversations, dialogues, they are, maybe they are reading the most superficial part of the book. [01:06:30] Abhinandan : Well, it depends on which book or which film. Yeah, yeah. I think certain books and certain films are really good at giving a very natural and authentic voice to their characters, and some are clearly not.And both- But I [01:06:42] Jayashree : love that Anand is sitting with us listening to us talk and thinking, "Where are the articulate people that I read about in books? [01:06:51] Mehraj : They're not here." So of, of- This, by the way, about language, this goes back to the point I had made at the beginning about like the language that's written is the official language.The language of, you know what I mean, broadly speaking, at the point of exaggeration, it's the language of nationalism. People never talk like that in their life. Anand is right about that. [01:07:09] Song : Yeah. Mm. [01:07:10] Mehraj : But this is the language that's evolved, that artificial language, you know- Mm ... to kind of put these people together and then obviously when you are a writer you- You know, kind of make it even better and more articulate and more profound.But the beginning of that language is that it's an artificial language. It's not the language that people speak anywhere in [01:07:30] Abhinandan : the world. Hmm. So before I give you my unpopular opinion, uh, I would like to remind you that get the sticker, pay to keep news free. Tell the world you support independent media. Uh, now that we know what legacy media's place is in the democracy we live in, and what people think, you should stand out saying, "I'm not one of them, I'm one of them."So here are the stickers. Scan this QR code. If you're a subscriber, you can get the stickers for free. If you're not a subscriber, you'll get the stickers subscribing, and you will also get a huge discount. And of course, do subscribe to our Hindi YouTube channel, as well as listen to a partner organization, News Minute's weekly podcast, South Central Now, before I come to my unpopular opinion, just want to, um, tell you guys I'veI'm sure it'll be unpopular 'cause I'm going to be reviewing it next week or next week. I saw Odyssey. [01:08:26] Song : Hmm. [01:08:27] Abhinandan : And when it ended, I was like, "W- I know there's a lot of peer pressure to like it," but I did not. I thought I wasted three hours and a lot of money because IMAX ticket costs like a thousand or some shit like that.[01:08:40] Jayashree : Have you seen it? I think it's capped in Tamil Nadu [01:08:43] Abhinandan : at 500 rupees, so Have you seen the film- ... we are lucky ... either of you? [01:08:45] Jayashree : I saw it. [01:08:46] Abhinandan : I, like, am I supposed to like it? Is it okay to say I, I don't dislike it- No ... but I, I don't understand what is the big deal. See, [01:08:52] Jayashree : so I was prepared to hate it 'cause, like, I hated Oppenheimer, and I hated Tenet, and I just found them really pretentious, annoying movies, so I expected that Odyssey would be the same, so therefore I found it quite nice.Like, I quite enjoyed it. I don't think it was a- [01:09:07] Abhinandan : No, why is it a [01:09:07] Jayashree : big deal? ... [01:09:07] Abhinandan : remarkable [01:09:07] Jayashree : movie, but- Why [01:09:08] Abhinandan : am I reading about it everywhere? Like, why, why is there pressure that I should know something about it, like? [01:09:13] Jayashree : The world we live in. I don't know, but also I think for people, like, the scale of it, the way it's shot, the way it looks, the sort of- Yesthey really buy into all that. And, like, the number of sort of big ticket actors who are on board this one project. I thought it was good, but I did not think it was- [01:09:31] Abhinandan : Okay ... [01:09:32] Jayashree : beyond that. [01:09:33] Abhinandan : Okay. Uh, Mihraj, Anand, have you guys seen it? No, I have not. [01:09:36] Mehraj : So you're unprepared. Uh, I haven't watched the movie, but I read about it obviously, and from what I could make out, there's like, again, it's kind of split between broadly what you call in the West left and right.So the left is more or less, "Oh, it's a great movie," you know? Nolan and all that stuff, and it's, whatever, breaking boundaries and all that. But the right is again, the same, you know, um, those concerns we were talking about earlier about that it's not very, uh, true to the original epic. Mm. It's kind of taking more liberties than it should, and then some questions about casting, you know, whether Helen should be a Black woman to begin with.[01:10:12] Abhinandan : Hmm. [01:10:13] Mehraj : Uh, those kinds of things. But I, I haven't watched it, so I- I [01:10:16] Abhinandan : see ... can't [01:10:16] Mehraj : say much. Yeah, [01:10:17] Jayashree : but, like, I did find the ending and all quite emotional. Like, it sort of came together for me in a way that I didn't expect. Like, I did feel something for the characters after sitting through three hours of it, so it was good.[01:10:28] Abhinandan : Okay. [01:10:28] Anand: So, uh, the unpopular opinion here is, is there a peer pressure to now lo- like things? [01:10:35] Abhinandan : Yeah, exactly. Yeah. There is a peer pressure to like things. Exactly. There is- Yeah ... or, or to dislike things. [01:10:39] Anand: Or to dislike. [01:10:40] Abhinandan : Like, you know, the, like, the amount of pushback we get each time we get Chetan Bhagat, that how can you have a serious conversation?I think Chetan has a better insight into- This nation's youth than many journalists who write, you know, 20,000 word pieces analyzing every little shit that happens. So my unpopular opinion is an extension of that. I think, uh, and I say unpopular opinion to a grouping, which is, which since I identify as liberal to the liberal grouping.Because of course to the right, everything is an unpopular opinion because I can't stand the right. I think they are small-minded, you know, dim-witted idiots who are- ... stuck in time. So fuck that. Everything is unpopular to them. You know, going on a date is unpopular to them. You know, having... I had said this yesterday, Havta.My theory, you know, all these horrible, ugly looking uncles who are- Yeah ... showing photographs of girls, find her, she abused Modi. She's fine. Yeah. Like, imagine you are doing that to a kid who's like 21. This comes from, these are frustrated, ugly fuck incels, and they extend all the way to high office. [01:11:51] Opening Intro: Yeah.[01:11:51] Abhinandan : And let's face it, power is attractive. The only time any of these assholes have a chance to get any action is if they have power If they don't have power, even a mannequin would not touch them with a barge pole. And that is their motivation for staying in power for this venomous-like way of fucking targeting women and going after them.Anyway, so the right, fuck them. But among the liberals, I think their description of snowflake is very accurate. I think they have the inability to have conversations with positions they can't agree with or people they can't agree with. And this only comes from very short-term. Like, they would have seen three lectures or three articles of someone and have decided this person is a, a bigot or the...There's no nuance. This cancel culture, that inability to have a conversation with someone you don't agree with on this issue, but maybe you have an agreement on some broader issues. Like, you may have the same direction in the river, but are little eddies who may have counter currents on certain issues.I think this is a very typical liberal characteristic. It is a liberal characteristic of a certain age group, and it is especially, um, uh, prevalent and, uh, heightened in those who are in the journalist, writer community and are very vocal on social media. And unfortunately, they think they should be taken seriously.They add very little to any intelligent discourse other than outraging and telling you who you should invite, who you should speak to, who you shouldn't speak to. And this all stems from them not being able to have a conversation with a position that they actually, in my view, cannot argue with. So the best way to do is cancel.Uh, so that is- Can you give an [01:13:42] Jayashree : example? [01:13:42] Abhinandan : That is my unpopular opinion. Well, I can give you so many examples. Like for example, the position, like, you know, I'll give you three different kinds of example. One is Bill Maher. I completely disagree with him on his position on Israel. I think he's like an uncle who is just refusing to condemn anything Israel does also because he's half Jew, and he identifies with that part because he has no qualms.If you see his 25, 30-year career, and I've followed him for a long time, he has no qualms making fun of the Catholic side of his family. Even not just in his political commentary, even in his personal life But never he, does he make fun of the Jewish side of his family. Uh, so I disagree with him on that completely.I think it's horrible b- he's bordering on bigotry. But his body of work, there is so much more. I mean, I don't think one can't have a conversation with him. Look at Chetan. I mean, the amount of letters that came. How can you talk to Chetan? He is this, he is that. Dude, he's more smart than many of you people who think you're smart, and many of them are people who are friends of mine, who are, quote unquote, editors.They couldn't finish a book, forget selling a, selling one. So that's another example. You know, the, so there's so many examples of people who are just pushed out. Manu. Manu Joseph, I disagree with probably 50% of the things, but he has a very clever, intelligent take. It's always fun having a conversation with him.For me, having a conversation with someone who I disagree with is an interesting exercise. But for snowflakes, it is an exercise that, oh my God, I'm triggered. I'm traumatized. How can I talk to the ... I cannot talk to this person. Hartosh You know, so I can go on and on. It is a very typical liberal attribute, and it has become heightened in the last decade.It wasn't like that when I was young. That's my unpopular opinion. Any views, Anand? [01:15:29] Anand: No. [01:15:30] Abhinandan : Anand has no view.[01:15:36] Jayashree : I will allow Meraj to go [01:15:37] Abhinandan : first. Hmm. [01:15:38] Mehraj : I mean, yeah, that's, that's obviously you see that everywhere now. But, uh, I think, uh, that is, uh, sort of the... if not the end point, but, you know, we're close to that of liberalism, the modern liberalism as it was conceived in, you know, Western academia to begin with, and then, then, uh, exported everywhere.So the liberalism, the idea of liberalism is that the individual is supreme. So when you elevate that individual beyond community, beyond any factors of, you know, what was considered taboo before or whatever. So when you elevate that individual as the supreme, you know, um, what do you call it? As the supreme deity, uh, in a way, what that does is that individual's desires, their concerns, their traumas, their triggers, those become paramount beyond everybody, everything else.So if you have 10 people and that one person says, "Okay, I'm triggered by this thing," because individual is beyond reproach, is beyond everyone, you have to defer to that. It doesn't matter nine people disagree, they defer. Another individual has another thing. So this is basically the hyper-individualization of a society that liberalism has brought about.That is why, you know, some of the commentators, especially in the West, w- what they're talking about now with this backlash around wokeism, around, you know, transgender ideology and all that is- Hmm ... basically the idea is that this is what we are entering now is the post-liberal world- Hmm ... where all these deities of liberalism will be kind of torn down one by one by one, and the reason being the same because when you elevate an individual beyond everything, the community breaks down.The factors, the taboos that used to be in communities that held people in check around, you know, sexual taboos or any- anything else, gen- around gender, around sex, around morality, around everything else, those had certain functions that kept a society in line, that built communities. Once you kind of leave communities aside, once you break down communities, that has two problems.One is the, this social problem where, you know, you can't talk to anybody without triggering them. I mean, this is... I'm just saying the, what the broad discussion around it is. And the other is that- These become, in a sense, apolitical communities. Mm. Where the power is so diffused that there is no way of organizing.If you don't have a community, if two people in a society can't agree on, on a, on a certain thing, one is triggered, one is not triggered, then you can't mobilize, which is necessary for, uh, you know, building communities, building political movements. [01:18:12] Abhinandan : Yeah. So, I mean, that's- Wh- which also extends to this whole, this new fashion of before you give any news trigger warning, "This news contains violence.This news contains..." Dude, don't watch the news. If you get triggered by everything, sit home, read Charles Dickens. That'll also trigger you because that also have violence and how orphans are treated in orphanages. [01:18:31] Jayashree : Charles Dickens has some of the most violence that you would get in- Yeah ... [01:18:34] Abhinandan : modern writing.Maybe then you should read Enid Blyton, but then that also may trigger you because of Big Ears and those other characters. Hmm. [01:18:41] Jayashree : Pre-trained, [01:18:41] Anand: uh, is- No, no, [01:18:42] Jayashree : I think that-- Sorry, Anand. [01:18:43] Anand: Yeah. No, I think the trigger is also because, uh, I think, uh, taking a very high moral ground is the easiest way to- Exactlym-m-moral, uh, as, as to intellectual victories. So easy intellectual victories come with, say, taking high moral ground at the first instance in an argument. [01:19:02] Abhinandan : Yeah, it's lazy 'cause then you don't have to argue. [01:19:04] Anand: Uh, yeah, because then you, you stick labels. [01:19:06] Abhinandan : Mm. [01:19:07] Anand: And stick labels that this is this, this is that, and then you don't have to argue further.If you divide something as hate and love, then, then you have to not argue anything. This person is hate-filled. Why argue with him? Yeah. So, [01:19:23] Mehraj : uh- Because the individual is the judge, jury, and ex-executioner. Yeah. There is no outside standard that you have to conform to, right? And- What you feel- Yeah ... what you think, that is supreme beyond everything else.There is no kind of objective outside standard that they have to conform to. And- Which again, like, uh, I was saying, is sort of the endpoint of liberalism. [01:19:43] Anand: Yes. And as, see, Miraj was saying that, uh, the liberating experience that individual gets because individual has been placed at the center. So now in s- the social media age, the, uh, the opposite effect has been that that personality has been held captive to say that you have to support this to support individualism.Mm. Actually, then you are becoming a captive of a community in name of individualism. Mm. So, so, uh, uh, actually, you are bartering indi- uh, your individual personality. So e-even in this very rebellious youth and Gen Z, you think that a lot of them, uh, don't have independent personalities. They, they are actually, uh, a part of a community, a part of a, say- [01:20:36] Abhinandan : Although that is not unique to this generation.[01:20:37] Anand: Yes, it is for all. All. Means I have said that Gen Z is young. The- Right ... the, the easiest explanation of any generation is young, middle-aged, old. Mm. So it is just, uh, I don't believe in this labeling just for the sake of- Mm ... say, public understanding, I am saying that, yeah. [01:20:56] Mehraj : Well, that, that's, yeah, I agree with Anand.I mean, that's sort of, that comes from human nature. You need those, I mean, for want of a better word, deities. If you re-re-replace the, uh, deities of religion, of nation-state or, or conservatism, something else, then you get into this individualism, then you still need some deities, right? Whether it's the individual, whether, like Anand was saying, it's something else within that framework, you'll always have those.[01:21:26] Abhinandan : Yeah, Jaishree [01:21:27] Jayashree : I think for me, I mean, I mean, see, it also comes down to what issues matter to you more than others. For some people it's veganism, for some people it's caste, for some people it's, you know, genocide, whatever. So you react to certain personalities based on where you stand in this hierarchy of what you see is most important.The second thing is that cancel culture as a phrase is something that I don't think I really I don't really think it exists to that extent. I think it is sort of rebranding accountability. I think getting arrested for doing something illegal isn't getting canceled, you're just being arrested. You know, being blacklisted for saying a certain thing isn't being canceled, it is facing a consequence.And when we say blacklist also, it's like any vaguely negative outcome for something you have done, and it's so broad so as to even sort of defeat the purpose. I think we call it insidious because of this entire nature of people rallying against the woke left and so on. But I think it's troubling to also categorize people asto categorize angry people as the sort of mindless, hysterical mob. I think people are powerless in so many ways when you talk about inequality and injustice and, you know, the daily grind, the lack of employment, the amount you're spending just for one single hospital visit and you kind of like to believe you have the power to cancel someone who hurts you.You don't, 'cause that's not how power works. But I think that's also why people respond the way they do on the internet to celebrities. And also I don't think it's an unhealthy thing for... Say, like I was a big Harry Potter fan once upon a time. I wouldn't touch it now because that is an issue that over the years has evolved to become something that is more important to me than the other.And Bill Maher, I mean, where he stands on a genocide is something that makes it very difficult for me to look past, and that's just a function of who I am as a person and it doesn't make me bad and you good, or make me cancel him or whatever. It's just that it matters. And I think it's okay that people have those opinions.Like, I may not find a Manu Joseph or a Jason Reza particularly compelling for reasons that are very personal to me, but that doesn't say anything about them as a person. That's just my re- reaction or my lived system No, [01:23:38] Abhinandan : no, I'm not talking about having opinions. I'm having the expectation that your opinion should have an outcome that makes that person untalkable to- But the-for others. That is what I'm saying. You're saying people have opinion. Of course people have opinions. But the expectation- But that doesn't- ... that because I don't agree with this person on this, that person cannot be spoken to, and expecting others to comply. See, what you're saying, Jayashree, is of course everyone has opinion on everything.I mean, that- that's- that's a given. Yeah. What I'm saying is I have an opinion on certain things, but thinking that opinion of mine will make this person stop writing. I think that's a shit book, but I can't say that's a shit book. It's, it's like... And which I keep telling my co-f- uh, host Rajashree Sen, when we are reviewing a film she starts reviewing the people who liked the film.I said, "Fuck people who like the film. They liked it. Tell me what you thought was wrong with it." The thing is, that's what I'm talking about. I think in... A- and I'm talking about in the context of opinion forming, which is what news professional people in public life do. Like the Ezra Klein podcast with Sarah McBride, the only trans congresswoman in the US Uh, from Delaware.Hmm. It's a fantastic podcast, and I think she is the only sensible person I have heard with a voice on this issue where she said, "We lost the culture wars because anyone who did not agree with us 100% was a bigot. We alienated any potential allies." And she gets it. And she is in a position of power. I think a lot of people on this don't get it.Hmm. You think because, oh, you don't agree with me totally. If you think most people are gonna agree that a person with a penis should be allowed to compete in women's boxing, then cuckoo, good luck to you. You can keep fighting that fight. You're never gonna win it. I think it's not a smart thing to do.People can do dumb things, but it will not have positive outcomes. That is what I make. Of course, they have opinions, no, no doubt about it. [01:25:37] Jayashree : I guess my question to you would be but don't you think that is just the nature of what social media and discussion is like today? Like even when you're talking about writing an op-ed in the paper or if it, there is a treasure to have an opinion and there isEvery opinion becomes something that is representing a collective, when actually it is just a very individual sort of take that we're measured and we measure it in the terms of the number of RTs it gets, the number of quotes it gets. But that doesn't really translate to anything materially, right? Mm. So I'm saying the function of how we talk to each other on social media sort of amplifies the way in which we think people are demanding certain things when it'sI might say something to my friend 20 years ago, but today I put it on Twitter and then it becomes this sort of sweeping, generalized statement that I have made to the world asking for something when that may not necessarily be the case. But I still think that I do still see, see it as a function of people trying to pretend they have power over decisions when they don't.So- [01:26:40] Abhinandan : Hmm ... [01:26:41] Jayashree : this is a little bit garbled, but- [01:26:43] Abhinandan : Right ... [01:26:43] Jayashree : I have a- [01:26:45] Abhinandan : So does anyone have any other views on any other thing before we move on to the emails and get everybody's recommendations and close the show? Any views at all? [01:26:55] Anand: Neeraj will- [01:26:57] Abhinandan : Neeraj [01:27:00] Anand: No, nothing in particular. [01:27:02] Abhinandan : All right. So today's emails have been curated by Anand, although we had recorded, uh, yesterday subscriber's take, so we have actually addressed all the emails that the backlog was thereof.And I also actually read some of the mails that have come this week. Uh, so we will read a couple today and then leave the rest for the next Hafta or the subscriber's take. We only address the emails of subscribers. So if you're a subscriber, you can mail us at podcasts@newslaundry.com. That's plural, podcasts@newslaundry.com.Or you can click on the link below. Please keep your email below 150 words so we can include as many as possible. If you're not a subscriber, become a subscriber. We'd like to hear what you say. So this is Jeevan. Jeevan says, "A quick suggestion. Given NL Hafta runs close to two hours, it would help to have a quick three to five minute zero-base introduction at the start of each topic, so all listeners are on common ground before the discussion dives in.I say this because episode 597, both Satlaj discussion and the FIFA World Cup segment referenced names and events I had no context of. I don't follow football closely, nor did I know the controversy around Satlaj. So the entire discussion went over my head, and I found myself lost for most of that episode."Okay, yeah, good point. We should do some context setting. Noted, Jeevan. In fact, we do that sometimes for some issues, but sometimes we just don't, we just dive into it. We used to do it, no, once in a while, Miraj Jashri? Context. Yeah, [01:28:28] Mehraj : but I mean, the, you imagine that everybody is interested in football, so- ... I'm blaming you for that.[01:28:33] Abhinandan : By the way, uh, which, which country were you supporting here? [01:28:36] Mehraj : Spain, obviously. [01:28:38] Abhinandan : Obviously. Okay. Yeah, I think they were, uh, I mean, I- No, [01:28:40] Mehraj : I don't mean that because they won. I, I really mean it. I'm [01:28:43] Abhinandan : sure. But tell me something, 'cause, uh, Samrat was here a few weeks ago, and he is convinced that it was fixed and rigged, the refereeing.I thought there were certain bad calls, but consistently they were as good or bad as any refereeing calls are. Do you think it was, like, like purposely they were trying to make one team win against the other, uh, Miraj, [01:29:01] Mehraj : Miraj? It was mainly about Argentina, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, they were trying to ... I mean, the theory was they were trying to fix it for Messi.Right. Another theory was because they are too close to, I mean, geopolitics. They're too close to Israel. [01:29:11] Abhinandan : Mm. [01:29:12] Mehraj : Uh, the, with their president, and obviously Messi himself and all that, so they were trying to fix it for them- Yeah ... with Trump and Netanyahu. But I think that's more a function of social media than anything.I mean, if that was the case, Argentina would have won, right? [01:29:23] Abhinandan : Mm. Okay. Shahzade Salim says, "As a subscriber," this is addressed to me, "I've always believed in News Laundry's motto, 'Mere kharch pe azad hain khabrein.' It's precisely because I hold News Laundry in such high regard that I write this with dis- profound disappointment.I covered the protests myself and witnessed the fear, anger, anguish, and resolve of young protesters firsthand. That is why I found the discussion to include Chetan Bhagat deeply disappointing. A discussion on such a defining political movement deserves historians, political scientists, journalists who covered the movement, or constitutional scholars, not a commentator known more for sweeping generalizations than informed analysis.I fail to see why unique perspect- what unique perspective he brought. I hope News Laundry remembers that editorial independence must coexist with accountability to its subscribers. We support you because we trust your judgment. When that trust falters, we expect our voices to be heard. Ma badoliat Shahzade Salim."So, uh, Shahzade, thank you for your support and for a very well-written letter. Uh, I'll tell you why we thought, uh, he'd, uh, bring an interesting perspective and unfortunately, he was on every channel after that. So, um, he had written something on the whole generation, the generation angst, which was quite interesting.So Manisha and I were sitting, we said we should bring him. Because for the on-ground coverage, we had Manisha. She was on the ground there for, like, four or five days. I was on the ground there for two days. So that angle was covered by us, and I hope you trust us. Um, then, uh, Anand, were you there for that week's discussion?Uh, we had, uh, I-- So Chetan, just purely on him being a commentator on, you know, young people generation, at one point being the most followed writer, et cetera, et cetera. Based on the piece he had written, we thought he'd be interesting. I... Sorry you didn't like that. We will try to do better, but that was the reasoning.I mean, it may not be good enough for you, but since you asked, I just told you. Uh, I'll just include, uh, maybe one more letter before we call it a day. This is Mohit Sagar. "Hi, Abhi Bhai. I'm sure you've heard this feedback before, but I generally don't understand why Chetan Bhagat continues to be invited to Hafta.In my opinion, his contributions rarely add any meaningful depth. His observations feel superficial. If you're looking for someone with liberal or satirical perspectives, you already have far stronger voice in your old friend, Sanjay Rajoura. It would be good to see Rajoura Bhai on Hafta sometime." In fact, yeah, we should get him on, Rajoura Bhai.Uh, a good example is Anurag minus Verma's podcast with Rofl. Yeah, that was fantastic. Rofl is also a good voice. Right on Jantar Mantar protest. Fine. Missed opportunity. Noted. We hear you. So I mean, this I get that he's not an area expert, so he didn't add any value. Uh, this doesn't... This is very different from saying you shouldn't talk to him about anything.But yeah, uh, Amit, can you please make a note of it? We should get Sanjay Rajoura next week. I think it'll be fantastic, and maybe Anurag minus Verma also. Right. On that note Let us get the recommendations for the week. You wanna go first, Anand? [01:32:31] Anand: Yes, two recommendations. So I had, uh, recommended, uh, means a very m- elementary, mm, physics reading that I am doing, Resnick Halliday of class 12 level.So I found a YouTube, old YouTube lecture by V Balakrishnan. I, I hope I am getting his name right. Hmm. He's an, uh, physics professor in IIT Madras, so i- it was a very old, mm, in, mm, institute video in which he has explained f- from very basic concepts of physics to, uh, a bit advanced level of his students.But I think it's a, mm, it would be a, a good watch for people who interested in basic- Mm-hmm ... concepts and their explanation. Second is I am reading, I have not [01:33:16] Mehraj : finished- Oh, sorry, uh, Anand, I, I watched that. That is fantastic. [01:33:20] Anand: Yes. [01:33:21] Mehraj : The, that lecture. Yeah. It's amazing. [01:33:23] Anand: Yes. [01:33:23] Mehraj : And the way he speaks, the way he explains things, it's just- YesI've never seen anything like that before. And without- And I, I also studied physics in school and college ... and without, without any lecture notes. [01:33:31] Anand: Without, without any notes. Okay. Without any lecture notes. [01:33:34] Mehraj : Yeah, yeah, exactly. [01:33:35] Anand: He, he just- [01:33:37] Mehraj : You know, also the way he speaks, usually when people, you know, give you lectures, they go here and there and everywhere.Mm. It's like straight- Yeah, yeah ... and, you know, very lucid- Yes ... and clear language. Mm. And so simple. Yeah. Fantastic. [01:33:49] Anand: Second, I am, uh, I am not finished yet, but I find, uh, found the book interesting, uh, like Tih- Tihar Players by Mohammed Farooqi who, who, who- Hmm ... who, who was, uh, in jail- Hmm ... for, uh, uh, rape charges from, uh, which he has been acquitted.[01:34:07] Abhinandan : Right. [01:34:07] Anand: And it's an engrossing book and very observant about little things and his reflections on life and a lot of other things around, um ... Also, it's a kind of, uh, jail memoir which elevates it to, to a literary form, and, uh, uh, uh, it has literary resonance. The, the quality of writing is great. And, mm, I am not finished it, but I would recommend that book, yes.[01:34:39] Abhinandan : Right. Jayashree? [01:34:41] Jayashree : Okay, since I have a lot of free time nowadays, I have been watching a bunch of movies that have been produced by the National Film Development Corporation. [01:34:49] Abhinandan : Hmm. [01:34:49] Jayashree : So one recommendation is that if you don't know this, NFDC has a add-on on Prime Video. It is, like, 200 bucks a year. Hmm. It has their entire catalog.It is so badly organized, but it is a Stupendous group of movies that you will probably never really come across otherwise. I certainly did not. So one, get that add-on. It is fully worth it. Two, I watched this movie called 27 Down. It's directed by Avtar Kaur. It came out in 1970-something. It's about a man whose life is lived alongside the Indian railways.He falls in love, but it's also a tragedy, so what happens? I'm not recommending that movie even though it is superb, but so basically Avtar Kaur, uh, he made this movie. He was very young. He was just in his 30s. Um, the film crew was gathered at their house in Bombay because they just for- heard the film had won two National Awards.Set and was thrilled waiting for the director to arrive when they got a phone call from a police station saying a body had been retrieved from the sea, and it was Avtar Kaur. He had drowned. Um, the cinematographer went to collect it. So his life was very tragically cut short. So on the 50th anniversary of his death, there was this lovely, moving, bittersweet, tragic tribute written to Avtar Kaur in The Wire by his nephew.It's, it was just, it's a very, it's a lovely read. It's about a man who struggled so much to make this film, about the making of the film itself, and then about how he, his life was cut short. So it's called A Remembering Avtar Kaur: When the Curtain Fell Too Soon, so please read that. And, um, I will also recommend a book of, so a woman runs away to a tiny town in a remote desert.She finds herself the target of a vengeful god. It is a roadrunner. So if you've ever watched all those Looney Tunes cartoons growing up, you have this very clear idea of what a roadrunner is like. It's very cute. It says, "Meep, meep," and all that. But this roadrunner is an unhinged, vengeful, obsessive little velociraptor.But it is a superb folksey horror book called Snake Eater by T. Kingfisher. So yeah. [01:36:49] Abhinandan : All right. Miraj [01:36:52] Mehraj : Uh, so one, I would, uh, endorse, uh, Anand's first recommendation of the lecture. [01:36:57] Abhinandan : Mm. [01:36:58] Mehraj : Uh, second, uh, uh, is this, uh, small sort of very short novel called Siddhartha by Herman Hesse. Mm. I've had this book for a long time.I don't know why I never got around to it before. But it's really lovely, so I would recommend this, the book. So I would recommend this. And third is this, uh, article on Substack by an anonymous social media person called America Nets. It's called Debasification. It lays out, I mean, it's the best article I have read about what, uh, Iran is trying to do with their, with its, uh, campaign against American interests.You know, I mean, there's been a lot of talk about why they aren't hitting Israel, why they're going after Jordan, Kuwait, and everybody else, and what the purpose is. I mean, this is the most clear-eyed and most, you know, convincing, uh, explanation analysis I have seen so far. It's really, I mean, highly recommend it.It's, for people who are interested in it anyway. Um, yeah. [01:37:54] Abhinandan : So, like any good uncle, I will pull out a little anecdote from my youth. You know this book, Herman Hesse, Siddhartha? It is the book I have gifted most, uh, Miraj, when I was young. You know when you're in your, like, late teens, early 20s- [01:38:12] Mehraj : I, I didn't get it for you, from you, by the way.[01:38:14] Abhinandan : I know. Because you didn't know me back then- It was before we knew each other ... and you're not a girl. So, so I would, you know, when you're trying to sound more intense and cerebral than you are, and at that time, you know, these kind of angles work. I don't think they work now. So I used to gift this book to any girl who I was trying to charm.And I would say, "You know, I really identify with this character because the three things..." Like, when she asks him, "What can you do?" That I want a job. He says, "I can wait, I can think, and I can fast." And the thing is, I used to hate eating, so I could actually starve myself. So I said, "You know, I really identify, because I can fast, I can wait, and I can think."And dude, it used to work. So boys and girls- Oh, God ... if you want to charm someone, give the girl Herman Hesse Siddhartha and say, "I really identify with this character." You can write in and thank me, tell me if it works. [01:39:04] Mehraj : I wish I had read this sooner. I, I got this book in, uh, [01:39:07] Abhinandan : 2015.And then I tried to read this book of, again, I said, because I've gifted to so many girls, if they ask me, "Have you read anything else by Herman Hesse?" So I start- started reading Steppenwolf. [01:39:22] Jayashree : Oh, God. [01:39:23] Abhinandan : I got so depressed. I said, "I'll kill myself. I should just abandon this book right now." So don't read that- [01:39:29] Mehraj : Okay[01:39:29] Abhinandan : by him as well. So I have two recommendations. One is this fantastic episode of, uh, The Daily Show by Jon Stewart, where he takes apart- Donald Trump's speech at the White House Correspondents Dinner, and he takes apart that dinner. That as a concept, there is no room for the two people who are combatants to pretend that we love each other.It has ... Which is a very interesting take actually. But how, you know, 'cause the president makes a funny speech, a stand-up speech, and of course Trump completely finished, like halfway through he was like, "Who wrote this? What a shit joke." What ... It was ... And he said how not to try to be funny. It's a masterclass in its meta because he is dissecting Trump's routine saying that this is, this is how you don't deliver humor.This is not how you write humor. And in so doing, he is so funny. I think it's a fantastic episode. And the second thing is I, you know, started, I did something last week, which I haven't done in years. You know, when I was young, when I used to get dressed, it was a very long process 'cause I used to be dancing throughout.I used to put on music, you know, go for a shower, get ... I was just dancing throughout my dressing. As an adult, I always listen to podcasts, Economist or Ezra Klein or this or that. So, so I discovered a song which was so pumpy that I, again, my whole routine of getting dressed was to this song. I put it on loop, and I just danced my way.So I would suggest in the morning, your routine when you get dressed, when you go to the shower, when you ... Put on music and dance your way through it. I rediscovered it. It was wonderful when I was young. I've started listening to podcasts, abandoned those. Listen to music again. Pumpy [01:41:20] Jayashree : music. But what was, what was the song you listen to now that pushed you to dance again?[01:41:24] Abhinandan : Here it goes. Have you heard it? [01:41:28] Jayashree : Meher, can you hear anything? 'Cause I can't hear anything. I, I [01:41:30] Abhinandan : can't hear anything. It's called Bam Bam. Bam Bam?Fantastic. Really pumps you up. But thank you so much. Wonderful having you guys on the podcast again. Jay Shri, Meherraz, our two valuable diamonds and rubies who have built News Laundry. You'd be happy to know News Laundry now has, I think, touched almost 25,000 subscribers, guys. [01:41:56] Jayashree : That's incredible. Great.[01:41:57] Abhinandan : Congratulations. Yeah. That's [01:41:59] Jayashree : amazing. So good. [01:41:59] Abhinandan : Thank you so much for coming for the 600th episode, being a part of it. We should have- [01:42:03] Jayashree : Yeah, and put our, put our stickers in the mail. [01:42:05] Abhinandan : We'll wait for that. Okay, we'll send you stickers in the mail. And, uh, we should have a bigger offsite celebration, and I'll invite you guys.You guys should come. Yeah. 'Cause what we'll do is- ... we'll have a one extra day where you have a session with the, uh, with our reporters and producers, because I guess if they get fatigued listening to the same lectures by the editors, once in a while- ... getting, you know, a new, uh, this thing. So I'll plan it, uh, and I'll let you guys know.I'll give you, uh, enough of, uh, uh, Notice. Notice, so that you guys can keep yourselves free. But thank you so much. Thank you, Anand. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to our wonderful, uh, sound recordist, Anil. Thank you to our producer, Amit, and I believe our young, other producer, Saurabh, is also behind the screen.Is he there? Yes, sir. Yes, sir, he's there. Thank you all. Thank you for being a part of it. Thank you. Keep the criticism coming in. Like I said, we're not snowflakes, so if you think we're doing something shitty, tell us. We can talk about it, 'cause that is how you make us do better. I have changed our position on so many things in the course of this News Laundry journey, and the only way we do that is by having conversations with those we disagree with.So thank you, have a fantastic weekend, and pay to keep news free.[01:43:57] Opening Intro: Thank you for your subscription. You're changing the world by changing the way news is funded. For the smoothest News Laundry experience, download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our paywall podcasts, and you'll also get access to all free News Laundry shows. Keep us ad-free and subscriber-funded.Help us grow. Tell people who listen to you to pay to keep news free. Subscribe to News Laundry. Keep journalism independent

2026/8/1

Birth of a Nation: Princely states, colonial archives and Partition | NL interview with Josy Joseph

From inner-circle spies in Hyderabad to the deliberate destruction of colonial records, investigative journalist Josy Joseph reveals the hidden history of 1947.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-07-31/wi5oe0v2/Josy-X-Abhinandan-2.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutouts of Josy Joseph and Abhinandan Sekhri and Josy Joseph. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ucnCjLjLv1M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucnCjLjLv1M" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>In this interview, Abhinandan Sekhri sits down with veteran investigative journalist Josy Joseph to discuss his third book, Birth of a Nation, which chronicles the little-known story of India's princely states during the transition to independence in 1947.Joseph explains how the book grew out of years spent combing through the National Archives while working at Times of India, initially collecting documents without a clear plan. He describes discovering that Sir Conrad Corfield, head of the colonial government’s political department, destroyed roughly 90 percent of records documenting the scandals of princely rulers – a move that infuriated Jawaharlal Nehru. The conversation covers Joseph’s research methodology and the standout characters uncovered in his research, including a mysterious spy embedded in the Nizam of Hyderabad’s inner circle who fed intelligence to Delhi during tense negotiations.As Joseph puts it: “Indian independence was not just the bloodiest partition in human history, not just the formation of the largest republic in human history, not just the first major state to emerge out of nonviolence... it was also the largest surrender of hereditary power.” He also argues that journalists, not just political leaders, drove the freedom movement, and laments what he sees as today’s media losing sight of that legacy.The conversation also touches on archival neglect in India, his deliberate choice to reclaim the title Birth of a Nation despite its association with the racist 1915 American film, and reflections on Gandhi, Nehru, and Patel’s contrasting leadership styles during Partition.Watch the full interview. Complaining about the media is easy. Why not do something to make it better? Support independent media and <ins><a href="http://newslaundry.com/subscription">subscribe</a></ins> to Newslaundry today. What’s Your Ism? Josy Joseph on future of journalism, Indian democracyHafta x South Central feat. Josy Joseph: A crossover episode on the future of media

2026/7/31

‘It feels like mass silencing’: Balendra Shah’s war on Nepal’s free press

Barred from ministries, blocked at the gates, starved of advertising revenue – how Balendra Shah’s government has shut out Nepal’s press in its first 120 days.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-07-31/xc0sho0g/2-7.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Nepal Prime Minister Balendra Shah" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>Last month, editors at a prominent Nepali online news portal debated whether to run an article comparing recently elected Prime Minister Balendra Shah to Kazi Lhendup Dorjee, the Sikkimese leader who presided over his kingdom’s absorption into India in 1975.The controversy traced back to a<a href="https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/nepal-pm-says-nepal-has-also-encroached-upon-indian-territory-sparks-uproar-in-parliament/article71044625.ece"> </a><ins><a href="https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/nepal-pm-says-nepal-has-also-encroached-upon-indian-territory-sparks-uproar-in-parliament/article71044625.ece">remark</a></ins> Prime Minister Balendra Shah made in Parliament on May 31, 2026. He said, “You might find it strange, but I also learned only recently – after becoming Prime Minister – that it’s not just India but Nepal too has encroached upon Indian territories in many places.”Shah’s comment triggered debate across Nepal’s Parliament and social media, and the newsroom received a wave of articles weighing in for and against it. One submission drew a pointed comparison, asking whether Shah could be “the new Lhendup Dorjee”.Speaking to Newslaundry on the condition of anonymity, a senior editor at the portal recalled preparing the piece for publication, only for a colleague to intervene. “Sir, let's not publish this article,” the colleague said. Asked why, the colleague pointed to how the ruling Rastriya Swatantra Party (RSP) supporters had earlier launched a campaign after another widely-read news portal ran a <ins><a href="https://nepalkhabar.com/society/129440-2022-5-8-20-9-11">report</a></ins> critical of the government. “My colleague told me that publishing this article will invite retaliation from the government and its supporters. I could understand their fear,” the editor said.The article was never published. No government official had called the news portal to ask that the article be pulled. No formal warning was issued. The article died at an editor’s desk, on the strength of an anticipation of consequences that never needed to be spelt out.It is this anticipatory silence – media houses disciplining themselves before the state does – that has come to define much of Nepal’s press environment under the Balendra Shah administration, which earlier this month completed 100 days in office.Alongside this quieter form of control sits a more visible one. Since taking office, Shah’s administration has enforced a strict institutional blackout that bars journalists from entering government offices, holds no press conferences, chokes private media revenue through advertising blockades, and engages in direct intimidation – an attitude that stretches back to his days as mayor of Kathmandu.‘Misbehaved with media’Shah’s approach to the press had taken shape long before he entered the Prime Minister’s Office. In June 2022, Himalaya Television journalist Prince Mishra and cameraperson Abhisht Lama arrived at the Environmental Management Department of Kathmandu Metropolitan City in Teku. They had gone to report on the operations of the Metropolitan City-run biogas plant.However, a routine assignment quickly deteriorated into confrontation. According to an <ins><a href="https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=5487309961312076&set=pb.100068579078473.-2207520000">official statement</a></ins> issued by the Federation of Nepali Journalists (FNJ), Nepal’s oldest and largest association of journalists: “Shah misbehaved with Himalaya Television journalist Prince Mishra and cameraperson Abhisht Lama, who had visited the Teku-based environment department to gather news.”Shah allegedly reacted aggressively the moment he saw the news crew. The FNJ statement noted that “as soon as he saw the Himalaya Television boom (microphone) and camera, [Shah] misbehaved with them and made them delete the footage they had recorded,” before barring them from entering the facility in the future. Labeling the forced deletion of reporting material as an unacceptable restriction on media access, the FNJ demanded that authorities respect the constitutional rights and freedoms guaranteed to the press.Newslaundry reached out to Madhusudan Panthi, editor of Himalaya Television, for comment on the incident. While he did not address the specific episode directly, he responded in writing to a broader set of questions about the government’s relationship with the press, excerpts of which appear throughout this report.Around the same time, a digital news portal, Onlinekhabar, published a <ins><a href="https://www.onlinekhabar.com/2022/05/1121632/%E0%A4%AD%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%87%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%B2-%E0%A4%89%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B0-%E0%A4%B0-%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B7%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%9F%E0%A5%8D">blog </a></ins>criticising Shah over his use of the national flag in campaign material, and was met with a vicious social media campaign and threatening phone calls to its newsroom. (More on this social media campaign, and the wider digital ecosystem behind it, in Part 2 of this two-part series.)One-way governanceSince taking office as Mayor in 2022 and transitioning to Prime Minister in March 2026, Shah has not held a single press conference or given an interview to the national media. Official information flows one-way through Shah’s personal social media accounts.Kanak Mani Dixit, writer and founding editor of Himal Southasian, told Newslaundry, “The media has zero access to Balendra Shah. As is the case with Prime Minister Modi in India, there is no opportunity to ask him questions – it is simply disallowed. Policy announcements and sensitive matters of state are announced through his social media handles. That is hardly enough to run a country as complex as Nepal.”“One of the clearest signs that a society is moving towards becoming a closed one is when people in government, the media, administrators, and even the business elite start using the encrypted messaging app Signal,” said Dixit. “That is a bellwether for democracy, and the fact that Nepal’s opinion-makers have joined Signal indicates we are not in a good state. Since the <ins><a href="https://www.bbc.com/audio/play/w3cszmk1">Jana Andolan</a></ins> in 1990, Nepal has prided itself on being the most open society in South Asia; that standing has eroded drastically under the current government.”Himalaya Television editor Madhusudan Panthi argued that Shah’s approach marks a genuine departure from past practice.“Traditional leaders such as KP Sharma Oli, Sher Bahadur Deuba, or Pushpa Kamal Dahal (‘Prachanda’) also tried to influence or control the media to their advantage. However, they did not completely shut the door on regular or even pressurised press conferences, informal meetings, or interviews,” Panthi said. “Shah’s approach, by contrast, is based on total avoidance. He does not present himself effectively in public speeches or interviews. To conceal this weakness, he may prefer to avoid face-to-face questioning altogether.”This shift, Panthi said, has left newsrooms with three compounding problems: a one-way flow of information with no room for follow-up questions; difficulty verifying whether a post reflects official policy or personal opinion; and newsrooms “increasingly forced to chase whatever leaders post online” instead of doing serious investigative journalism. ‘Economic blockade’This closing off of information is compounded by an aggressive economic blockade against the press. On March 31, just four days after his swearing-in ceremony, Shah <ins><a href="https://english.himalayatimes.com.np/2026/04/97396/">directed</a></ins> government bodies to publish and broadcast all public advertisements and information exclusively through state-owned media.FNJ’s Kathmandu chapter <ins><a href="https://myrepublica.nagariknetwork.com/news/fnj-denounces-govt-move-to-ban-govt-advertisements-to-private-media-37-69.html">condemned</a></ins> the move as an attack on press freedom, warning that “interference in the press is unacceptable; resistance is inevitable.” FNJ’s national body later escalated this to <ins><a href="https://english.ratopati.com/story/59964/federation-of-nepali-journalists-protests-against-discrimination-in-government-advertisements">nationwide protests</a></ins>. The Advertising Association of Nepal also issued a <ins><a href="https://english.himalayatimes.com.np/2026/04/97396/">statement</a></ins> demanding the policy’s withdrawal.Dixit added, “The major media houses have suffered from the cancellation of government advertising and public service announcements. Social media giants such as Google and Meta have already taken away advertisement revenue while relying on content created by media outlets. The media is weak as the traditional economic model has been upturned by social media, which also means less watchdogging of those in power.”He believes that the media has been weakened economically in its own right, and that the government has weakened it further by leaving it without the sources and access it once had. Business people, as well as officials in government and the bureaucracy, are also intimidated, he remarked, and will not criticise the government even if they’re inclined to.Besides Dixit, Newslaundry tried to contact the owners and publishers of the Kantipur Media Group, which owns the Kathmandu Post (English daily), and Nepal Republica Media, which owns Nagarik, a popular Nepali daily, and Republica, its English edition, to further understand the pressures media owners are under. But we received no response. Ujjawal Achary, a researcher at the Kathmandu-based Center for Media Research Nepal, noted that the pretext of financial regulation is masking a deeper hostility.“The government doesn't look positively towards the media... Even if the pretext (of financial prudence) is valid, the impact has been financially troubling, especially in the case of smaller media... It shows that the government is not positive in the development of the press.” He added that Shah knows the power of the media. “If there is coverage in international media in his favour, he is available, but when he is critically questioned and analysed in local media, he tries to distance himself from them.”Panthi agreed the policy was strategically motivated “to financially weaken independent and private media,” though he added that in principle, independent media should not rely on government advertising to survive in the first place. “Pushing private media into a financial crisis is, indirectly, an attempt to silence critical voices or compel the media to serve as a mouthpiece for the government.”‘Shadow censorship’KP Dhungana, editor-in-chief of Ukeraa, a digital media outlet that focuses on investigative journalism, told Newslaundry that the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) has instituted a shadow censorship mechanism across the cabinet and state bureaucracy to maintain this tight grip. Under this administration, he claims that the PM and his inner circle act as “super ministers”, rendering cabinet members incapable of independent action.Usually, each ministry has one spokesperson and one information officer – both government employees selected from within the bureaucracy. The PMO secretariat, by contrast, is staffed by the PM’s personal team.Dhungana explained that when journalists or anyone else needs information, they usually contact the spokesperson or the information officer. “In previous governments, the spokesperson provided information quite easily,” he said. “Now, when we call them even for very simple information, they often say, ‘I will call you back and give you the information’.”Furthermore, Dhungana revealed that the PMO's press team has created centralised WhatsApp groups for each ministry. Before issuing any comment to the media, spokespersons must seek approval through these groups.“By restricting access, requiring ministry spokespersons to obtain permission before speaking, and disseminating their own one-sided, ready-made news through WhatsApp groups, media control is being carried out directly from the PMO,” he added.This machinery was on full display just days ago, following the death of <ins><a href="https://kathmandupost.com/national/2026/07/10/ganesh-nepali-was-fined-1-000-rupees-it-cost-him-his-life">Ganesh Nepali</a></ins>, a 27-year-old ride-sharing driver who set himself on fire outside the Department of Passports on the afternoon of July 10 after an altercation with the metropolitan police, and later succumbed to his injuries. Gaurav Pokharel, a journalist at Kantipur Media Group, spoke to Newslaundry about how the government’s messaging machinery handled the incident.Pokharel said that the RSP, with a number of journalists in its own ranks, understands PR well enough to prepare news items itself – image, headline and all – before sending them out ready-made, making it very difficult to independently find out what was actually happening. He cited the Ganesh Nepali case as an example: a simple detail, such as the government’s response to it, should have been easy and harmless to share with the public, yet even that basic information was hard to get.“The spokesperson doesn't pick up the phone, and they don’t give you any information,” he said. At times, spokespersons ask not to be quoted at all: “They tell us ‘Please don't quote me; I want it to be off the record.’ A spokesperson saying ‘don't quote me’ makes no sense.”According to him, access to the ministries has also tightened considerably. Where reporters could once walk directly into the PMO and go to whichever room they needed after simply informing whoever was posted outside, they must now specify exactly who they’re meeting and why before being let in.“The civil servants and the bureaucrats are also very scared to speak,” he added. When contacted by Newslaundry to understand their predicament, four serving and one recently-retired senior bureaucrat with the Nepal government declined to comment.Pokharel noted that this distance from the media predates Shah’s premiership. “Shah was always like this, communicating less with the mainstream media. Even as a mayor, Shah did not give any interviews to the mainstream media.” Even sitting MPs, he claimed, have informally been told not to talk to the media at all, and to avoid them. Newslaundry contacted nine RSP MPs for comment to corroborate these claims but did not receive a response.Dhungana summarised the unprecedented institutional silence. “The government is completely censored. It officially becomes very difficult to talk to cabinet ministers; they are not ready to talk, and there is no access. In the earlier government, even access to the Prime Minister was quite easy... Now even meeting a cabinet minister has become exclusive content. With this government, even for the simplest comment, they don't even try to talk to you on the record.”Journalist Amrit Chamariya of Ratopati, a popular online news portal, echoed this claim, stating, “Even though some of the ministers and their personal secretaries are people that I have known for a while and been friends with, I can't access information. Also the situation is that we only get information they want to give and it’s very difficult to find other information because that kind of access has been completely stopped.”This blockade has a second, quieter cost. Rohit Dahal, editor at Ratopati, warned that relying entirely on a politician’s personal social media account destroys public accountability. “Social media posts are generally one-way communications, offering no opportunity for journalists to challenge or interrogate the information,” he said.But not everyone agrees that the access problem is uniquely severe. Bhupal Luitel, who hosts ‘Samaya Sandarva’, a popular daily news and analysis show on Himalaya Television, offered a more favourable view. “It depends on one’s outreach – for those who have it, it isn’t very difficult,” he told Newslaundry. “But there was easier access before. It feels a little less now.”Interestingly, about a week after the Ganesh Nepali incident, suspicious vehicles were parked outside the gates of Onlinekhabar, Kantipur, and Himalaya Television for several hours, blocking vehicular movement. According to a Kathmandu Post <a href="https://kathmandupost.com/national/2026/07/13/vehicle-linked-to-rsp-leader-among-those-blocking-three-media-houses">report</a>, one of the vehicles outside Kantipur Media Group’s office belonged to a member of the ruling RSP; Newslaundry could not independently confirm the ownership of the others. Luitel described the incident as “a state-protected atmosphere of intimidation”.<div><blockquote>By restricting access, requiring ministry spokespersons to obtain permission before speaking, and disseminating their own one-sided, ready-made news through WhatsApp groups, media control is being carried out directly from the PMO.</blockquote>KP Dhungana, editor-in-chief of Ukeraa</div>Iron curtain on the groundThe Shah government’s desire for total control of the media narrative was vividly on display following the events of <ins><a href="https://kathmandupost.com/editorial/2026/06/10/no-more-delay-in-shelter-for-displaced-squatters">April 25, 2026,</a></ins> when it initiated the forced eviction of the Sukumbasi squatter settlements along riverbanks and public lands across the Kathmandu Valley. ‘Sukumbasi’ in Nepali refers to both the settlers (people with no legal ownership of the land) and their settlements in Kathmandu; the term has come to reflect a <ins><a href="https://www.urbz.net/articles/sukumbasi-bastis-kathmandu">collective identity</a></ins>.Spanning <ins><a href="https://kathmandupost.com/valley/2017/07/16/squatter-settlement-demolished">more than 70</a></ins> squatter settlements across Kathmandu, Lalitpur, and Bhaktapur, they had formed over decades as the byproduct of poverty, natural disasters, public neglect, and civil war. The sudden evictions drew strong dissent from human rights organisations, civil society groups, and opposition parties for being executed without proper consultation or guaranteed relocation and rehabilitation.The National Human Rights Commission <ins><a href="https://www.nhrcnepal.org/press_release/detail/880">reminded</a></ins> the government of its standing recommendation to arrange alternative housing, while Amnesty International <ins><a href="https://amnestynepal.org/press_release/nepal-reports-of-forced-evictions-of-hundreds-raise-serious-human-rights-concerns">warned</a></ins> that forced evictions without dialogue or resettlement measures reflected a dangerous erosion of the rule of law and signalled an increasingly authoritarian approach.To monitor how the displaced populations were being handled, journalists and civic activists flocked to the seven government holding centres set up across Kathmandu, Bhaktapur, and Kavrepalanchok, which housed <ins><a href="https://kathmandupost.com/national/2026/06/24/displaced-squatters-face-june-26-deadline-to-vacate-holding-centres">1,488 people from 388 displaced households</a></ins>. However, ground reporters trying to cover the human toll were strictly denied entry and forcefully removed by heavily deployed municipal, state, and armed police forces.In a conversation with Newslaundry, Monika Waiba of Ukeraa recounted her experience attempting to report from a holding centre in Kirtipur on April 29. “I was told journalists are not allowed inside. I insisted that I just wanted to talk to people and hear them out, and that I would not take any photos, videos, or recordings. Another journalist from Kantipur Daily, Daya Dudraj, and I were asked to leave. He was also physically grabbed by his arms. Later they made him delete the photos and videos he had already taken.”Daya Dudraj confirmed the physical altercation. “As I requested to [be allowed to] report, the metropolitan police grabbed me by my arm. When I asked why, I was told I was not allowed to take videos and photos and that they had apparently been watching me for a while,” recalled the journalist from the Nepali daily. “They hauled me out and asked me to delete the videos. I had already stored the footage, so to show I complied, I deleted it in front of them. They then made me delete it from my recycle bin to permanently erase it.”When Waiba later visited the Kathmandu Metropolitan City office to seek clarification, she was stonewalled. “When I go to report now, I have to lie that I am a relative of the settlers and hide my identity as a journalist,” she added.Meanwhile, the displaced families face vicious socioeconomic shaming online from Shah’s base, who have amplified the derogatory label “Hukumbasi” – implying they are fake land-grabbers operating under political orders. Waiba noted that this online hostility has translated into real-world violence: “In a recent incident when I visited the holding centre in Banepa... a group of local children had come to the holding centre to throw stones at children staying with the settlers, calling them fake and ‘hukumbasi’.”Samarphan Shree, another journalist at Kantipur Daily, experienced similar hostility from the police while investigating reports that food was not being provided on time at the Kirtipur holding centre. He recalls how the behaviour of officers posted there turned hostile when he identified himself as a reporter from the Kantipur Daily.“They said things like ‘What is the work of the media anyway? The government is doing good work and you are here to write things that are not happening’,” Shree recalled.Shree noted that on the first day of the evictions, a strict narrative filter was applied on the ground: “When the eviction took place there were deployments of army and police. That day as well only media that favourably covered the government were allowed inside. However, media like us who have been questioning Shah’s decisions were not allowed inside and asked to leave. The victims were crying. We could hear them crying outside. The police themselves were taking pictures and making videos of how Nepal police were helping people... and put it in their social media pages. But the journalists who regularly follow the Sukumbasi, their story and their struggles, were not allowed to go inside.”In a separate incident on the night of July 3, the holding centre at Kirtipur was flooded following heavy overnight rain. Here too, the media were kept outside the gates. Instead of sending officials from the Ministry of Home Affairs, the government sent people directly appointed by the PMO to speak to the press at the holding centre.As Pokharel noted, “A lot of water went into the holding centre and flooded these temporary settlements. Normally, the government would respond through a civil servant from the relevant ministry, but instead a representative appointed by the PM was sent who is neither a civil servant nor an elected official. They are trying to bypass formal channels.”Nirmala Sharma, president of the FNJ, has accused the government of taking a narrow view of the media and curtailing freedom of expression. Speaking at a<a href="https://english.ratopati.com/story/69003/governments-approach-to-media-has-narrowed-chairman-sharma"> </a><ins><a href="https://english.ratopati.com/story/69003/governments-approach-to-media-has-narrowed-chairman-sharma">programme</a></ins> organised by the federation in Lalitpur on July 5, 2026, Sharma said journalists have limited access to information. While journalists can reach ministries in Singha Durbar, they cannot even get to the gate of the Prime Minister's Office and Council of Ministers. She added that journalists also lack easy access to parliamentary committees, and accused the government of trying to control the press through economic pressure. This multi-layered blockade has created a transparency gap. A total of 14 journalists across six media outlets interviewed by Newslaundry confirmed that the government has systematically denied them access, with the PMO blocking journalists at the palace gates.The intimidation has extended to warnings from state security apparatuses. Journalist Parju Panta of Ukeraa experienced this firsthand on two separate occasions. After the Gen Z protests, she called the Nepal Army spokesperson to ask why the Singha Durbar – the historical palace serving as the political and administrative centre of the government – had caught fire despite the presence of military personnel, and why water from the tanks stationed there had not been used to extinguish it. During the unrest <ins><a href="https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/10/asia/nepal-protests-gen-z-outcome-intl-hnk">last September</a></ins>, Gen Z protesters breached the Singha Durbar premises and set parts of it on fire.Instead of responding to her, the spokesperson allegedly said, ‘You are being monitored’. When she asked why, he allegedly said her news reports were being monitored. When she pointed out that her reports were publicly available, “he responded, somewhat irritably, that everyone must work to protect the country’s sovereignty,” Panta said – to which she replied that this was precisely “why journalists needed to report on the problems people were facing”. The next day, she was disinvited to the Army’s press conference.After the election, Panta wrote a <ins><a href="https://www.ukeraa.com/news/detail/175116/">story</a></ins> about the appointment of ex-Nepal Army officers to a high-powered committee overseeing the cleanup of the Bagmati River and to the board of directors of Nepal Airlines. While seeking a response to this story, she claimed, “the same Army spokesperson responded by reading out provisions of the Constitution to me.”<div><blockquote>The victims were crying. We could hear them crying outside. The police themselves were taking pictures and making videos of how Nepal police were helping people... and put it in their social media pages.</blockquote>Samarphan Shree, journalist at Kantipur Daily</div>An atmosphere of self-censorshipFearing state retaliation and digital harassment, media houses are actively pulling their punches. Naresh Gyawali, the Op-Ed editor at Ratopati, revealed that reporters are now being instructed by management not to be too critical of the army or the government. Speaking to Newslaundry on condition of anonymity, a veteran journalist noted that many media houses are run by proprietors with extensive business interests, making them inherently vulnerable to spoken or unspoken governmental pressure. Thus, “the pressure trickles down from the proprietors of print and online media to the editors, and from there to the reporters.” Publishers, he said, have been visibly intimidated by government efforts to arrest members of the business elite – moves intended to project power rather than genuinely follow through with prosecutions.Binod Dhungel, a senior reporter with Reporters Without Borders, offered a grim assessment of the media landscape. “Media houses are operating in an atmosphere of fear, leading to self censorship. Overall, there is a press freedom crisis. Editorial independence is shrinking. The right to report has also been encroached. It feels like there is mass silencing in society.”Yet even amid this, Dixit maintained that the media, and editorial rooms in particular, have “not, as of now, totally gone under.”Panthi acknowledged that fear of backlash has shaped newsroom behaviour more broadly. “The fear of organised online attacks has undeniably created an atmosphere of self-censorship within journalism,” he said. “Many small or newly established newsrooms have become more cautious... they often soften the language of certain stories or choose not to publish them at all.” He maintained that Himalaya Television had not compromised its own editorial independence, but said the channel had been “compelled to adopt certain security measures and technical precautions”.Luitel, however, urged caution before passing judgement. “This government has a five-year term – about 1,800 days. We’re only around 120 days in,” he said. “If we rush to evaluate it this early, our assessment could be wrong. The signs aren’t entirely encouraging, but we should give it the benefit of the doubt while continuing to hold it accountable.” Newslaundry sent questions to Dipa Dahal, a press and research expert appointed to the PMO, via WhatsApp about Prime Minister Balendra Shah’s order directing all government advertising to state-owned media, his refusal to hold press conferences, the centralised WhatsApp groups used to vet ministry spokespersons’ comments to the press, and the treatment of journalists at holding centres. In response to our email, she replied that she is “currently unable to provide any quote or comment”. (The author is an editorial intern with Newslaundry.)Newsrooms burned, vandalised: Bangladesh’s ‘Godi media’ is under fireDemocracy dies when ‘Godi media’ grows: Bangladesh is a wake-up call for India

2026/7/31

Inside Modi’s decision to ask Dharmendra Pradhan to resign

While most media channels moderated their coverage after being booed by protesters at Jantar Mantar, sources from Republic told us why Arnab decided to hold on to a firmly pro-government line.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-07-28/lt8es8n1/thenewsminute2026-07-28736xzmpzPT-.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutouts of Narendra Modi and Dharmendra Pradhan. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>Welcome to this week’s Powertrip, a political newsletter curated exclusively for subscribers of The News Minute and Newslaundry. This week’s edition is by Dhanya Rajendran, Pooja Prasanna and Shabbir Ahmed.In this week’s edition, we found out what made the Modi government back down and ask Dharmendra Pradhan to resign.Among media houses, why did Republic remain unapologetically pro-government and anti-protest? What was the newsroom strategy? MDMK chief Vaiko had grand plans of bringing together Rahul Gandhi and Tamil Nadu CM Vijay on the same stage. Why did he fail?Powertrip is a newsletter that senior political reporters of TNM put together every week. For those who can’t access the full newsletter, get a subscription and read every Tuesday.<iframe class="trinity-player trinity-iframe" src="https://trinitymedia.ai/player/trinity-i/2900013399/?pageURL=https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/07/29/inside-modis-decision-to-ask-dharmendra-pradhan-to-resign&readContentType=URL" style="border: 0; width: 100% !important; height: 90px !important" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe> Inside the decision to ask Dharmendra Pradhan to resignWhat made the Modi government take the unusual decision of asking Dharmendra Pradhan to resign?According to sources, the turning point came after intelligence inputs suggested the protests were unlikely to lose steam on their own. Instead, officials were warned that the agitation could become more volatile the longer it dragged on.The reports also indicated that there would be an increased pushback from the protestors against the violence from the police and armed forces. Rather than weakening the protests, the violence risked eroding support within sections of the BJP’s own base.There was another concern. Sources said intelligence agencies flagged the possibility of physical retaliation against members of the armed forces in response to the violent methods of crowd control like lathi charge, tear gas, and water cannon. Such a development, officials believed, could have further damaged the government’s image and made the crisis significantly harder to contain.Against that backdrop, Pradhan was asked to step down.Sources said he was assured that the resignation would not diminish his standing within either the BJP or the government. Instead, he was told he would be accommodated in a new role after the impending Cabinet reshuffle, alongside an organisational reshuffle within the BJP expected over the coming weeks.The hero’s welcome Pradhan received from BJP MPs in Parliament was also part of that messaging, sources said. The objective was to signal that his stature within the party and with Prime Minister Narendra Modi remains intact, and that his exit should not be interpreted as a political defeat.For now, Prahlad Joshi has been brought in as a stopgap arrangement. A full-time replacement is expected to be named after the wider Cabinet reshuffle.The Republic newsroom ‘strategy’ as protests ragedAs reporters from various channels labelled “godi media” by protesters were booed at Jantar Mantar and demonstration sites across the country, what was happening inside the newsrooms?At Republic TV, sources described an editorial approach that left little room for debate.One employee told us that Editor-in-Chief Arnab Goswami decided early on that the network would take a firmly pro-government line. According to the employee, once that editorial position was set, there was no discussion about changing course despite the scale of the protests.The reasoning, sources said, was straightforward. Goswami believed the movement did not enjoy broad support among young people and that the most visible voices on social media represented only a vocal minority. From that perspective, there was little reason to recalibrate coverage to reflect what was seen as a limited constituency.Several reporters told us they were nevertheless uneasy about being deployed to protest sites because of the hostility they encountered.“It isn’t the first time we’ve faced anger from protesters, but we’ve never seen it at this scale before,” one reporter said. “That said, refusing to report from the ground isn’t really an option.”There was also a larger editorial calculation at play.According to employees, Goswami believed that while some rival channels had partially moderated their coverage by giving greater space to the protesters’ arguments, Republic had an opportunity to distinguish itself by taking an unapologetically pro-government and anti-protest position.The strategy, sources said, was aimed at consolidating the network’s core right-wing audience while setting it apart from competitors. With television ratings suspended for months, there was little immediate pressure to chase viewership numbers. Instead, the focus was on reinforcing Republic’s identity among its core viewers, even if it meant standing apart from the rest of the television news industry.Vaiko’s plan for Rahul-Vijay political optics failsMDMK chief and firebrand politician Vaiko’s attempt to take a lead in national politics by bringing Leader of Opposition Rahul Gandhi and Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Joseph Vijay together on the stage in Delhi failed miserably, as Vijay cancelled his visit to the national capital.Vaiko’s book, titled ‘Vaiko in Parliament’, comprising four volumes of his speeches in both Houses of Parliament, was scheduled to be released at the Constitution Club in Delhi on August 4.Initially, the book was supposed to be launched by Rahul Gandhi and received by Vijay. But the event was planned as more than a book launch. It was aimed at projecting the Tamil Nadu Chief Minister on the national stage – with Vaiko hoping to claim credit.Though Rahul Gandhi attended Vijay’s swearing-in ceremony, the optics of both leaders sharing the stage in the national capital would have sent a different political message. However, Vaiko’s plans did not work out as expected.There were four reasons for Vijay cancelling his participation in the event. First, the timing; his visit would come after the student protests witnessed across India over alleged irregularities in NEET, led by the Cockroach Janata Party (CJP). Second, the Constitution Club has a capacity of only around 700 people, which was not considered advisable from a security point of view, and third was the upcoming state budget.Another reason was political. TVK does not want to jump the gun or be seen publicly with Congress leaders at the national level, despite serious attempts being made to forge a national alliance and bring Rahul and Vijay together on a single platform.The Chief Minister was advised not to attend the event for now, and accordingly, his visit was cancelled. The decision was also conveyed to Vaiko, who later attempted to save face by claiming that Vijay had cancelled his visit due to difficulty in crowd control.Separately, a section of Congress leaders is pressuring Rahul Gandhi not to attend the event, as Vaiko is one of the staunch supporters of the LTTE, which killed Rajiv Gandhi.A political story of public importance<h4><a href="https://scroll.in/article/1094539/why-a-generation-brought-up-on-pro-modi-propaganda-turned-against-the-pm">Why a generation brought up on pro-Modi propaganda turned against the PM</a></h4><figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-07-28/z1ftab27/thenewsminute2026-07-28ywvzeimy214701-kpizpravit-1784985819.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption>For many youngsters, political awareness began with doubts, arguments with parents and learning to think for themselves with the help of social media.</figcaption></figure><h3>Powermoves</h3><h5>Top 5 political stories</h5><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/news/ex-ib-special-director-and-two-victims-move-supreme-court-to-ban-pellet-guns">Ex-IB Special Director, and two victims move Supreme Court to ban pellet guns</a></ins> <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/kerala/personality-cult-apathy-candidate-selection-cpims-unsparing-audit-of-kerala-rout">Personality cult, apathy, candidate selection: CPI(M)'s unsparing audit of Kerala rout</a></ins> <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/karnataka/how-one-karnataka-villages-traditional-diet-is-linked-to-healthy-child-growth">How one Karnataka village's traditional diet is linked to healthy child growth</a></ins> <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/opinion/tamil-nadu-fails-at-appointing-non-official-visitors-to-prisons-despite-recurring-custodial-deaths">Tamil Nadu fails at appointing non-official visitors to prisons despite recurring custodial deaths</a></ins> <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/opinion/the-watchdog-that-chose-to-wait-nhrcs-delay-as-jantar-mantar-protesters-were-assaulted">The watchdog that chose to wait: NHRC’s delay as Jantar Mantar protesters were assaulted</a></ins> Newsletter management: Vidya Sigamany

2026/7/29

Hafta 599: CJP protest, Gen Z fury, social media and the crisis of TV news

The podcast where we discuss the week’s news. <figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-16/egtq656l/HAFTA-NEW.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="New Hafta cartoon featuring cutouts of Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal, and Abhinandan Sekhri. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>This week on Hafta, Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande and Shardool Katyayan are joined by author Chetan Bhagat, Peek TV co-founder Priyanshi Sharma and Dhanya Rajendran, editor-in-chief of The News Minute. The discussion begins with a focus on the student protests that have spread across multiple cities, with the panel examining how paper leaks, unemployment anxiety, and frustration with the education system have created a much larger political moment.Abhinandan opens with a confession. “I owe an apology to Gen Z. I was wrong.”Chetan Bhagat believes that frustration has been brewing for much longer than the headlines suggest. He remarks, “Street protests are seldom about just one issue. They’re an agglomeration of emotions that have been built up over time.”The paper leaks, he argues, merely became the trigger. Years of unemployment, shrinking opportunities, repeated recruitment failures and a growing loss of faith in institutions had already created the conditions.He further adds, “Fixing the paper leaks is not going to solve things. We’ve missed the boat on jobs.”Speaking on how social media played a vital role in the protest, Bhagat says, “The government gifted the protesters content gold. You cannot get more emotionally engaging content than a riot policeman chasing a 16-year-old girl with a lathi. You wake up and see those videos, you’re bound to share them. A small protest in Delhi suddenly became viral across the country. The government completely underestimated how Gen Z works. They still think they can change the narrative with announcements. You cannot battle an exponential curve with announcements. The genie is out of the bottle. Raita phail chuka hai.”The discussion then moves to how protesters treated the mainstream media at Jantar Mantar. Priyanshi remarks, “Their mindset isn’t determined by how Republic or India Today covers the protest today. It’s determined by what these channels have done over the last ten years. Even if tomorrow Republic starts saying this is a genuine student protest, it won’t change people's behaviour because they’re not watching Republic anymore. They will need years of undoing what they have done. This distrust has become inevitable.”Adding to this, Dhanya says, “I’ve worked in television since 2003. Not every reporter is guilty, and many continue to do honest journalism. But we also can’t pretend reporters are completely innocent bystanders. They’re part of the same ecosystem. The actions of a few have damaged the credibility of many. Reporters too have become cogs in that wheel, and people now respond to the institution before they respond to the individual.”Drawing the contrast with small independent media and mainstream media, Priyanshi adds, “They judge the mic. It doesn’t matter whether it says Peek TV or Republic TV. If it looks like a television mic, they assume you’re from the mainstream media. Someone with a Bluetooth mic immediately appears friendlier, more approachable. That’s the unfortunate reality.” All this and more.<iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ec3d9497cef7479d2ef4798/6a6455bca7fbf9da1479cf5b" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5YXe6fFow74" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YXe6fFow74" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>Hafta letters: <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/07/25/hafta-letters-cjp-criticism-world-cup-rant-and-podcast-feedback">CJP criticism, World Cup rant, and podcast feedback</a></ins>If you want to write to Hafta, <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/podcast-letters">click here</a></ins>. Click <ins><a href="http://newslaundry.com/sena">here</a></ins> to contribute to our Sena project. Check out the<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/store?routeName=NlStore"> Newslaundry store</a></ins> and flaunt your love for independent media. Download the<ins><a href="http://www.newslaundry.com/download-app"> Newslaundry app</a></ins>. Song: <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=copZrmeUCQI&list=RDcopZrmeUCQI&start_radio=1"> </a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMAkXuPjcbk&list=RDKMAkXuPjcbk&start_radio=1">Hum Laye Hain Toofan Se Kashti</a></ins>Timecodes00:00:00 Introduction00:09:00 Headlines00:12:16 Why Gen Z Took to the Streets00:52:22 Chetan Bhagat Recommends00:53:49 Why Protesters Don't Trust Mainstream Media01:55:17 Recommendations02:04:10 Subscriber Letters—------------------------------------------------------------------------------References<ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/mmmk">NL -TNM Joint Subscription</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/podcasts/south-central">South Central</a></ins>For Non- Subscribers – <ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/pl_TGWwtDUMNLsSAu/view">Get The Sticker. Pay to keep News Free</a></ins>For Subscribers – <ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/pl_TGXXxJVCbCceUU/view">Get The Sticker. Pay to keep News Free</a></ins><ins><a href="https://linktr.ee/peektv.in?utm_source=ig&utm_medium=social&utm_content=link_in_bio&fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQPOTM2NjE5NzQzMzkyNDU5AAGnwUbzeW29FMhrd4XdzIFAKxW9ql3kUACnQ6smGQHGfVb6Y1LF_qwnor_dHMk_aem_MrxqUwBb97CbOjSmsULBmw">Peek Tv</a></ins>—------------------------------------------------------------------------------RecommendationsAbhinandan Sekhri<ins><a href="https://radioopensource.org/the-worlds-sport/">The common denominator in the world</a></ins>Shardool <ins><a href="https://www.xbox.com/en-US/play/games/the-witcher-3-wild-hunt-%E2%80%93-complete-edition/C261457LCNMJ">Witcher 3 </a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.amazon.in/Chandra-Shekhar-Malwinderjit-Singh-Waraich/dp/9382246371">Chandra Shekhar Azad: A Biography</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfUtseK27pc"> X-Men '97</a></ins>Chetan Bhagat <ins><a href="https://www.amazon.in/Comfort-Crisis-Embrace-Discomfort-Reclaim/dp/0593138767/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=57112886817&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.0aTCqiLzo0xQ7_f3xN5LxSCWH8j4fayQEN7Rhh-NFUcXbjlumxxsKgQoKNUUUybSixWUdcCSwPJHggC1kuq_Bev6_cJ5ZFqf_f3HTFsqmlI4MtLHRy4LrH9m_H2AbA2c2wq24tnTHozzvFp0p5zjWJxbSaRsY8-Rt8AQd6UfqCOYq8h3AsyLmf_lHG5z5Zggrd6w9CxPq-7iq5Bn0M09Y1Z6WLZJ357_RQ-UB5hIJS8.ktZavbBTE84LIZExcauOtJidYZE2WAyH31e2ZpaPni0&dib_tag=se&gad_source=1&hvadid=499073335411&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9181766&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=16208540837486365229--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=16208540837486365229&hvtargid=kwd-1162894127759&hydadcr=1105_2331461&keywords=the+comfort+crisis&mcid=9cf8e9393a69342dbeb2a7f3c1204d88&qid=1784958580&sr=8-1">The Comfort Crisis</a></ins>Dhanya Rajendran <ins><a href="https://thewire.in/rights/cockroach-democracy-unarmed-and-dangerous">Cockroach Democracy: Unarmed and Dangerous</a></ins><ins><a href="https://x.com/seekingsrishti/status/2080346573679263926?s=20">Srishti Jaiswal reporting for Article 14 </a></ins>Check out <ins><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VCmV6yr5t1LHE77Xp5-cYhWrQSkhW3A8nix310MvRQU/edit?usp=sharing">previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters</a>. </ins>Produced by Amit Pandey with production assistance from Hassan. Sound by Naresh.Hafta 599[00:00:00] Manisha: This is a News Laundry podcast and you're listening to NL Hafta [00:00:10] Promo : Angrez apna lagaan aur News Laundry apna hafta kabhi nahi chhodte. Welcome to NL Hafta. We're recording this on Friday the 24th of July at 11:45 in the morning. Before I introduce the panel, and no points for guessing what we'll be discussing, it is the [00:00:30] students' protest that has spread to most cities with the population above, I don't know, a million.[00:00:37] Promo : Uh, I mean, I've just been inundated with videos from cities that I never thought- Yeah ... would step out to protest I have one little announcement to make, which is these stickers. Stick to the plan. Always stick to the plan. Now, why these stickers is that we had... In fact, even I went yesterday [00:01:00] to Jantar Mantar.[00:01:00] Promo : Here's a little promo we'll show you. We will be releasing that 30, 40 minute with Manisha and Atula, I went. Now, we [00:01:06] Chetan : have seen [00:01:07] Promo : a lot of videos that the [00:01:08] Promo : police are also harassing them. No, no, we cannot talk to the media. Okay. Please. No, I [00:01:12] Promo : was saying that because everyone is saying that, brother, they are being harassed.[00:01:16] Promo : So I was saying that everyone has a human side. You must also be sitting since morning. No one is even asking you about food and drinks. So can you tell us that angle? Because right now we have only seen the lathi angle. No, no, please don't ask us about this. Okay, fine. Is there anyone else who can tell?[00:01:18] Promo : Anyone else? Yes. No one will tell about this? Our senior will be there, sir. DCP will be [00:01:19] Chetan : there. Okay, now [00:01:19] Promo : we will show a class, pathshala.[00:01:30] [00:01:43] Promo : Sushant Singh's pathshala. We have a low budget, so we don't have an electronic screen.[00:01:51] Promo : But we will work with chart paper. What's his name? Sushant [00:01:53] Manisha: Sena. Sushant [00:01:54] Promo : Blackboard Sena. Sushant Blackboard Sena. So it says, "Dear Delhi Police, a uniform, a [00:01:59] Chetan : [00:02:00] uniform is not just a cloth, it is a promise." It's for Delhi [00:02:02] Promo : Police. But, you know, several people have asked us that how come you can dedicate three, four journalists to this coverage?[00:02:12] Promo : And that is because of you guys. You supported us for so long that we don't think about this. You know what others have to think about, should we do it or not? How will people react? How will advertisers react? Many news organizations have banned their employees. Even if you're just going there for a walk, do not be seen there.[00:02:29] Promo : So [00:02:30] I was like, you know, we never really think about this. It is because you guys supported us. So to all subscribers, we will send you a set of these. You don't have to pay for it, nothing. Just pay for the courier, because if we send it to all thousands of our subscribers, it will be a loss of lakhs. So if you can just pay for the courier, and if you're a subscriber, you can get this sticker.[00:02:52] Promo : We're just going to send it to you, put it on your windscreen, put it on your car bumper, put it on your scooter bumper, put it on your laptop, wherever. Give it to your [00:03:00] friends and relatives. And if you're not a subscriber and you subscribe now, you will get this set as part of the subscription. So thank you.[00:03:10] Promo : This is a, a token of our appreciation and gratitude for all of you. Uh, because since I have it on my car- At a red light someone said, "Do you support News Laundry?" Clearly the person only knew Manisha and Atul. They did not know who I was. [00:03:27] Manisha: No, a lot of people knew you. [00:03:28] Promo : No, no, but on the ... Arey, [00:03:30] at the red light this person didn't know you.[00:03:31] Promo : But they- "You support News Laundry?" [00:03:32] Manisha: Know you. [00:03:33] Shardool : This specific [00:03:33] Promo : one. I said, "Yeah, uh, I support News Laundry." "Very good sticker. Where can I get?" So I said, "Theek hai, let me get back and try to send it to as many people as we can." So thank you. [00:03:44] Manisha: I wanted to add, and we will be discussing this, of course, that journalists have been heckled and there's been a lot of untowardly incidents at Jantar Mantar, but when we went with you yesterday, we were welcomed.[00:03:57] Manisha: Uh, we met so many people who said, [00:04:00] "Proud of News Laundry." And I felt it really feels good to be welcomed in spaces of protests- Mm ... like these, where you have such a bunch of, uh, such a diversity of people. And you really feel proud of being part of an organization which... You know, that's what you've earned through the years.[00:04:21] Manisha: Yeah. The fact that so many people were just like, "Come talk to us." Mm. So it's bad what has happened there, but at the same time, when we went, I think people were [00:04:30] eager to talk to us. [00:04:31] Promo : Yeah. [00:04:31] Manisha: So that trust and everything that we've managed to do is thanks to our subscribers, that we've been stayed. We've been able to do this for so long, stay put, been able to do investigations, stories, reports- Hi, guys.[00:04:44] Manisha: Hi, guys ... and really kind of hold the fort. [00:04:46] Chetan : I'm very sorry for the [00:04:47] Promo : delay. Mm. Yeah. Carry on. Hi, Chetan. Ha. [00:04:50] Chetan : Hi, hi, guys. You guys started already? [00:04:53] Promo : Yeah, we, we, but we were just introducing the show. Okay. We are just going to introduce you. Chetan is here. Bhagat has joined us. [00:04:59] Chetan : My [00:05:00] frame is okay? My, like, framing- No, [00:05:02] Manisha: you need [00:05:03] Promo : to do- Yeah, it's too much of headroom[00:05:04] Manisha: also vertical hai. [00:05:06] Chetan : Can you tell, tell me like a simple language? [00:05:09] Promo : That's correct. [00:05:10] Manisha: Perfect. Don't do a Modiji wala video selfie. Dekho, [00:05:12] Chetan : pata tha. I was waiting for that to come. Ab dekho[00:05:18] Promo : beta. It shows by itself. Aise, aise boomer uncle aise karta hai. Beta, sunai de raha hai? Dikhaai de raha hai? [00:05:25] Chetan : Haan. I- [00:05:26] Promo : Ha ... [00:05:27] Chetan : listen, man. [00:05:28] Promo : Ha, this is fine. Ha, [00:05:30] Manisha, please finish your thought. [00:05:31] Manisha: No, so I was just saying that it was really, I f- felt really good to be part of an organization that was welcomed and where people were excited to talk to us.[00:05:39] Manisha: So thank you so much for our subscribers, because you've made sure that we've existed for this long to be able to be here, hold the line, report, be at the forefront of what has been a very, very I think, I think historical week. [00:05:52] Promo : Oh, yeah, it has been a historical week. In fact, we'll discuss that in more depth, but let me quickly get into- [00:06:00] The panel introduction, we have our very own editorial director, Manisha Pandey.[00:06:06] Promo : Hi. Shardul Katayan, our regular in-house- [00:06:11] Shardool : Many [00:06:11] Promo : things ... observer of many things. And joining us from Mumbai, I'm guessing- [00:06:17] Chetan : Yes, Mumbai ... [00:06:18] Promo : is youth icon- [00:06:21] Chetan : Oh please, yaar, stop [00:06:22] Promo : it ... pyare yaar, dildar, shandaar, lajawaab [00:06:26] Chetan : Chetan Bhagat. I don't know how that came, but I don't know. There's nothing iconic [00:06:30] and- Arey dude, come [00:06:31] Promo : on, [00:06:31] Chetan : yaar[00:06:34] Promo : one sec. Mm. Now you may have a gray beard, and you may have- Mm ... the signs of wisdom through gray, although I don't see any wrinkles on you, which we will later find out Chetan "... " But you, when at, at the peak of publishing when books were read, et cetera, uh- Ouch ... dude, I, I went to the, I went to the JLF. I think that's the first time we met in 2012 [00:06:58] Chetan : Yeah, yeah.[00:06:59] Chetan : [00:07:00] Okay, stop with this. Let's get on. I'm, I'm, I'm here on the Hafta. But- People read my books, but I'm- We [00:07:05] Promo : had to, like, quickly grab you from the chungals of so many ladies who are saying, "Chetan, Chetan." Oh, God. [00:07:13] Chetan : I have so many [00:07:14] Promo : things to say about that- There was- But that's a separate interview ... there was Gulzar sir there.[00:07:17] Promo : There were so many authors. But the line outside so ... Then Madhu, you know, only Madhu could do this. She just- You guys were launched She just- You guys were launching there- We were launching ... as a, as a [00:07:26] Chetan : entity. [00:07:26] Promo : She just shoved through the crowd. [00:07:30] The Chetan was signing books with a line, I don't know how long, all youngsters, you know, students, et cetera.[00:07:34] Promo : Just grabbed Chetan and said, "Come, we want to interview you." And poor Chetan said, "What the hell is happening?" [00:07:41] Chetan : Yeah. So- I mean, it's not very different now with News Laundry. It's similar. [00:07:44] Promo : Yeah. But I'm just saying that you were a ... The crowds that you'd attract at the, uh, JLF were huge. So I'm just saying. [00:07:52] Chetan : Yeah, it's not just the crowd.[00:07:54] Chetan : I mean, and I, I would like to add, I have been writing about education. In fact, my entire career I owe to my [00:08:00] first book, which was even Five Point Someone or Three Idiots was about the education system. Mm. So it's been something I owe my entire career to. I've been writing about these issues for a long time.[00:08:11] Chetan : Even NEET, I've been writing columns on it from 2024. [00:08:15] Dhanya : Mm. [00:08:15] Chetan : So it's ... And I'm very familiar with the entrance exams. A lot of my motivational events happen at coaching institutes where a lot of NEET aspirants come to attend- Mm ... or other entrance exams. So this is a very, very close topic to my heart. So in some [00:08:30] ways, I mean, sometimes they call me for topics I have no clue, but here, because I, I think I can understand the pain of people better, and it was always there.[00:08:39] Chetan : I, I mean, and we can discuss more as we go along here. [00:08:41] Promo : Right. So those of you who may not have quite grasped who the fourth person is, he's from Mumbai joining us. His name is Chetan Bhagat. He's a columnist for The Times of India. You write for anyone else, or you have an exclusive with them? [00:08:53] Chetan : Uh, no, I sometimes write for others and, and it come Dainik [00:08:57] Promo : Bhaskar also.[00:08:57] Promo : Yeah, but he's a regular Times of India columnist and [00:09:00] author and a writer of, uh, cinematic stories and web series as well, and also has acted in a web series. So with that, uh, let's get into the headlines. [00:09:11] Manisha: Action-packed news week. So just last night, activist Sonam Wangchuk ended his 26-day hunger strike at Gurugram's Medanta Hospital in the presence of Union Minister JP Nadda and Jitendra Singh.[00:09:22] Manisha: Happy pictures were shared online. And soon after that we got a late night selfie video by our prime minister, [00:09:30] who announced that the union cabinet would consider a draft bill providing for fast track courts and stricter punishment for those involved in examination paper leaks. Hmm. All this is of course happening because there was a massive protest on Monday, July 20th, where lakhs, I would say at least a lakh people descended onto Delhi.[00:09:48] Manisha: This was the Congress Janata Party led protest march. Protests turned violent also. There were demonstrators who were marching to the Jantar Mantar, uh, marching on the Jantar Mantar towards parliament. Police used tear gas [00:10:00] and baton charges to disperse the crowd. We also saw protests in different parts of India this week.[00:10:06] Manisha: Hmm. Mumbai, Patna, Assam, Aizawl. Meanwhile, uh, opposition leaders like Rahul Gandhi, along with Priyanka Gandhi Vadra, Mallikarjun Kharge, Akhilesh Yadav, staged a sit-in near the Prime Minister's resi- residence before briefing ... before being briefly detained by the Delhi Police. Hmm. [00:10:21] Promo : Kapil [00:10:22] Manisha: Sibal has moved the Supreme Court arguing that the anti-defection law is being diluted.[00:10:27] Manisha: His writ petition challenges the interpretation [00:10:30] of the constitution's 10th Schedule, which allows rebel legislators to avoid disqualification by merging with another political party. I think it's very important. [00:10:38] Promo : Hmm. [00:10:39] Manisha: Hundreds of farmers from Punjab were stopped at the Haryana border on Tuesday as they attempted to enter Delhi for a Kisan Mahapanchayat to protest the proposed India-US trade deal.[00:10:48] Manisha: Hmm. The death toll in Sikkim tunnel collapse has risen to 25 people after rescue teams recovered the last three bodies ending a four-day search operation. [00:10:58] Promo : Gosh, that's very horrible [00:11:00] incident [00:11:01] Manisha: yeah. DMK MLA GV Maragadachaiyan was arrested over allegedly making some derogatory remarks against Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Vijay.[00:11:11] Manisha: The arrest followed a complaint by Tamilaga Vettarai Kazhagam's North District Secretary, who alleged that the remarks were made during a DMK public meeting. [00:11:19] Priyanshi : Madhya [00:11:20] Manisha: Pradesh Police detained social activist Amit Bhatnagar and several others leading protests against the Ken Betwa River Link project. In fact, you must watch his interview with Atul on NL Hindi.[00:11:30] [00:11:30] Manisha: Yes. A day after a police head constable was killed in a terror attack in Anantnag, authorities demolished the homes of two suspected local terrorists in south Kashmir. The houses belonged to Haroon Ganai and Adil Ahmed Thokar in Hassanpora and Bijbehara and they were razed. [00:11:45] Promo : Hmm. [00:11:46] Manisha: Editors Guild of India said biased media coverage cannot justify attacks on journalists, warning that such violence has disastrous implications for society.[00:11:57] Manisha: The statement came after reporters covering the youth protest [00:12:00] demanding Dharmendra Pradhan's resignation were assaulted and heckled. Spain defeated Argentina 1-0 in extra time to win the 2026 Men's Football World Cup in New Jersey, United States. [00:12:12] Promo : Don't judge football by the final, World Cup final. That's all I have to say.[00:12:16] Promo : Now, um, let me just get to, I saw you on, uh, I think NDTV it was, after a long time at length you were talking on this whole student protest. And I went yesterday with Manisha and Atul, and day [00:12:30] before yesterday went to shoot, day before I had just gone there to have a look around, uh, to see what it's like You spoke about, and I think the inevitability to that- of that is I agree with you completely.[00:12:41] Promo : Only a blind person would not know that people will be frustrated, there are no jobs. There's ... I mean, the youth has no space to go. Now, since you write for the youth, in one sense you obviously have their nerves because your columns, your commentary sells among them, which [00:13:00] also Modi Ji has. He knows what would work.[00:13:02] Promo : He can gauge the... And that is a skill. Uh, you know, people may have politically differ- differing views about people, but there are certain people who know what connects. Like Rahul doesn't, in my view. Modi does. He knows what will connect. And doesn't [00:13:17] Shardool : as well. [00:13:18] Promo : Doesn't as well, right. So, A, the inevitability of this, do you feel that this was misread by the, uh, government for [00:13:30] so long they let it go thinking it'll die?[00:13:33] Promo : Or do you think they had a plan a- all along, which they are going with now? [00:13:37] Chetan : I think they, they knew about the issue. I mean, it was an issue in the Lok Sabha '24 elections also. Mm-hmm. Whenever I did a TV program for I think ABP, and we would go to colleges and I would do some debates with colleges, it was like a brief.[00:13:50] Chetan : So everywhere we went, the co- paper leaks was an issue. Paper, uh, even in the Lok Sabha '24 election, not the maybe the biggest issue because people were talking of «‎Samvidhan badal denge» and all [00:14:00] that. And I think it had some impact on the electoral result, but we will never know. Because we, we... Largely it was put on the fact that «‎Samvidhan badal denge 400 par» uh, was the reason people turned against.[00:14:12] Chetan : But the y- there was a youth discontent even then on this issue, and now we are in '26 and papers are still getting leaked. So I think that, that anger was always there. Now, it-- when a street protest happens, it's [00:14:30] seldom about just one issue. It's seldom. It's an agglomerations, emotions of people which have been built up over time, and there have been a rapid, quick succession, some kind of a discontent in people in which some of the things have happened.[00:14:46] Chetan : Petrol prices because of the oil crisis, that may be little bit out of control, but somewhat in control. You can set the prices, but the ethanol blending thing has not been very popular. The Ram Temple theft has not been, um, taken. [00:15:00] And then came this issue. So the, the when, when a several pieces of evidence collect, which point to like a lack of accountability, some sort of a incompetence, lack of oversight, then suddenly the trust erodes in the government This, uh, that's what led to the CJP being getting so much traction on Instagram.[00:15:20] Chetan : But when they did a ground thing, it wasn't that well attended. Okay? Uh, it could have been many reasons, but it just is [00:15:30] partly because the Gen Z operates on digital platforms, and they feel that's good enough. That's my world. Also, maybe it was more hot in Delhi then. It could be as simple as that. Yeah, yeah.[00:15:38] Chetan : It was 45 degrees. You're quite right. And the weather ... Yeah. Even this protest would have been limited but for the content gold that was given to the protesters by Delhi Police. It was what we call, like in, in pure digital marketing terms, you cannot get more engaging emotional [00:16:00] content than a fully, like a crisp, prist cop wearing riot gear, helmets, visors, taking a big lathi and chasing a 16-year-old girl.[00:16:11] Chetan : You know? Like- Hmm. ... you ... I mean, what the hell, right? You wake up... I woke up in the morning, I was in Delhi that day. I was like, "What is going on?" Like You are bound to talk about it, you are bound to share it, especially when you're young and you're ... I'm not even 16, but imagine what it is going to do to the youth [00:16:30] across the country.[00:16:30] Chetan : A small protest in Delhi compared to the size of India became viral like nuts. Yeah, man. It was a gift. [00:16:37] Promo : So viral. I mean, cities that I ... I've seen videos from Guwahati. I mean, the crowds there, the crowds in- [00:16:44] Chetan : Yeah, yeah ... [00:16:45] Promo : Satara. [00:16:46] Priyanshi : Yeah. [00:16:46] Chetan : So there is a guy, I- it's very funny, we share this guy's memes. He's a guy who collects bouncers for events, okay?[00:16:52] Chetan : He's a very funny- Durgesh ... viral type guy. Durgesh. Yeah. Ram Ram bhaiyo. Right? Do bouncers ki jarurat [00:16:54] Promo : hai? [00:16:55] Chetan : Yeah, [00:16:55] Promo : I, [00:16:56] Chetan : I [00:16:56] Promo : don't know [00:16:56] Chetan : why I, me and my friend, we keep sharing these Ram Ram bhaiyo. Resco [00:17:00] dhayega Subaru [00:17:00] Promo : suit. [00:17:01] Chetan : Yeah. Huh? [00:17:02] Promo : I, yeah. [00:17:03] Chetan : Wow. I follow Durgesh [00:17:04] Promo : in [00:17:05] Chetan : case, you know, I need to join some of the bouncer. He is, he is not political at all.[00:17:08] Chetan : He only does bodyguards and all that. And, and he always- But he said, bhai- [00:17:11] Promo : His, his starting greeting is Jai Shri [00:17:13] Chetan : Ram bhaiyo. Ram Ram. Jai Shri Ram. Yeah. Ends with Jai Shri Ram. Yeah. Yes. But he said, "Chalo bhaiyo, sare chalenge youth protest." And he had some 400,000 likes. Mm. To get 400,000 likes, you probably need to get, like, seven, eight million views.[00:17:24] Chetan : This is just one data point. It's not about him. [00:17:27] Insert 1 : Mm. 9 baje Jantar Mantar sabhi bhaiyo ko pohchana hai. Chote bade, 6+, 100+, jo bhi ho. Thik hai? Comment se kaam nahi chalega bhai. Full support chahiye [00:17:30] sabhi bhaiyo ka Jantar Mantar pe. Aur prasan ki koi tanashahi nahi chalegi bhai. Thik hai? Jai Shri Ram. Jai Shri Ram![00:17:42] Chetan : Extraordinarily viral content was provided, which in 2011 this wasn't there, right? Instagram wasn't so big. Data wasn't so easily available. That gifted the content. Then what happens? People say, "Chalo," a few kids say, "Let me go see it." [00:17:56] Manisha: Mm. [00:17:56] Chetan : Woh bhi jaate hain dekhne. Then they come back, and then they post.[00:18:00] [00:18:00] Chetan : They immediately get likes. "Wow, yaar, my friend has gone." Usko bhi- Ha ... you get above average likes than a regular post. So obviously this option is available to me. Let me go ... See, every Instagram account is hungry for content. [00:18:12] Promo : Engagement farming also, no? [00:18:13] Chetan : Yeah. I'm not saying this means there is no issue, okay?[00:18:16] Chetan : Yeah. I'm not- [00:18:17] Promo : It's not necessary that it's insincere, but there is an overlap of priorities. [00:18:20] Chetan : Listen, the way the Gen Z works, if you do not understand the digital perimeter of the whole thing, you are not going to understand what really happened, and that [00:18:30] is what the government ... When you, your question was, has the government misunderstood?[00:18:33] Chetan : In this, the government doesn't understand. I think now they are beginning to understand. And even now, I think they don't fully understand. The tsunami of an exponential curve, the mathematical curve, if you- Mm ... like, if the paper were not leaked and you actually studied exponential curves versus linear curves- You will find that you cannot battle it.[00:18:53] Chetan : You cannot battle it with announcements. You cannot ... It just will run its course. You have to do some action. [00:19:00] Words will not... See, thinking that we will say something and the narrative will shift now- It's too late for that ... that stage is gone, man. Genie's out of the bottle. [00:19:09] Shardool : Yeah. [00:19:11] Chetan : Raita fail chuka hai, you know?[00:19:13] Chetan : Ab woh abhi toh char paanch sheher mein hua hai. Abhi toh sabko maze lene hai na. Sabko dikhana hai apne friends ko. Ladkiyan kaise impress hongi? Main gaya tha protest mein. Yeh dekho. So- Police wale ke saath meri bhi photo hai. I'm just saying this was a gift given- Exactly ... by the government to these protesters.[00:19:24] Chetan : And again, that's, and [00:19:26] Promo : that's not to say there is the issue is not there and those things are not sincere. [00:19:30] But if you are getting something that is healthy but also delicious to eat, why would you not go for that? So- [00:19:36] Chetan : Why would I... See, the issue was always there, but many issues in India never get this sort of traction.[00:19:40] Chetan : Exactly. This is a unique set of stars getting aligned. It's young people. See, farmers protest, for example. Similar in nature in some ways. Mm. They were protesting in Delhi. In some way they were more intense. They were parked for one year. Yeah. But farmers don't share funny memes. Right. And these guys, Gen Z is freaking hilarious.[00:20:00] [00:20:00] Chetan : You can just watch it. Even if you have no skin in the game, you can watch this, uh, student protest content- Just- ... if this is a genre ... just for fun, yeah. Like it is so hilarious. I couldn't-- I had to keep my phone away at night. I was like, dude, ek ke baad ek funny se funny aaye jaa rahe hai aur abhi bhi aaj bhi.[00:20:15] Chetan : Like, the moment the government releases something, they come up with it in minutes. So this is a content machine. Now, I will say this, Abhinandan, the same machine benefited this government. Mm. When the love happens na, toh woh bhi [00:20:30] irrational hota hai. Mm. So the neta ke liye jab pyaar aa jaata hai toh usko kehte hai aap ko kyun pasand hai itna?[00:20:34] Chetan : Humein nahi pata, sabko pasand hai. Uh- Wow. Everybody gives a, "Aayega toh aayega." So it just went, it works both ways. It's a, it's- Now there is anger. Ab woh samajh nahi aa raha itna kya gussa hai. Why is the bouncer upset when he's never gonna take the neat? [00:20:46] Promo : Yeah. It's a crowd, man. So let me come back to you.[00:20:50] Promo : Uh, just a couple of thoughts from the panel, uh, before we go back to Chetan. One is, and this Chetan and Manisha will get a [00:21:00] great opportunity to say, "I told you so, boomer." I have sat here and many times disdainfully said, uh, "Gen Z se kuch nahi [00:21:09] Priyanshi : hona." Haan. [00:21:09] Promo : They are too busy on their phones. Sorry, [00:21:10] Priyanshi : bolo. [00:21:12] Promo : Matlab the people who had to go out and protest are now gray, and there's, th- this, that's not gonna happen, 'cause Manisha often used to say that how come they're in a protest anymore, et cetera.[00:21:22] Promo : And I know Chetan has disagreed with me that I have very, you know, uncle type reading of Gen Z, and Manisha of course says that all the time. [00:21:30] So it is not often that you are happy to be proved wrong, but damn, was I wrong. Like, I was telling Manisha when you went yesterday that at the, before our protest in the Jan Lokpal, and Jan Lokpal wasn't the only protest I was part of.[00:21:43] Promo : I was part of many RTI protests between 2005, uh, 2004 to 2008, '9. Till we move to, we've never had a crowd of this size at, at Jantar Mantar. And the, and another thing that I thought I had the dirtiest language, so this here I can say to [00:22:00] subscribers who keep saying, "Abhinandan, your language on Hafta is so foul.[00:22:03] Promo : Our children are listening. What will they learn?" Auntie, uncle, I went to Jantar Mantar and I learnt new la- language. So, that is not something you should worry about. But yeah, I owe an apology to Gen Z. I was fucking wrong about them, that they will never step out, they are too scared, they are too lazy, or they are too entitled.[00:22:22] Promo : Wrong on all three fronts. And the one thing that I haven't seen in my life Is someone stepping out of a Mercedes BMW [00:22:30] carrying chips, juices and all, and a laborer standing together and protesting. This didn't happen during Jan Lokpal. This didn't happen during RTI. I was part of the water privatization protests in Delhi.[00:22:40] Promo : I have not seen this cross section of society coming together of the same generation. So yes, apologies. Stand corrected. Manisha, what do you make of it? We're gonna discuss the, uh, media angle and the attacks to the media. Mm-hmm. And we're gonna be having a journalist joining us who was attacked actually.[00:22:56] Promo : Um, but on, you know, what Chetan said, the reading of the- Yeah ... [00:23:00] situation, and just the virality of the protest in so many cities. [00:23:03] Manisha: I think Chetan has just hit the nail on the head with his dissection of Instagram content. And to me, the best way to illustrate this is the reel that came out from Bombay, where these kids are sitting in a, a, a van with a cop and the cop says, "powder."[00:23:18] Manisha: Mm. "You know, powder plant ." Basically that, "I'll plant drugs on you and you'll get screwed for your life." These kids are recording it, laughing, and then there's this constant ... What is the [00:23:30] cinema word for it? Breaking the fourth wall. Hmm. So they're constantly talking to their cameras, you know? So which is why it is...[00:23:37] Manisha: So the kids are, you know, kind of recording the cop, but then they look at the camera and start laughing at what is this guy doing, and saying, "uncle " to him, but addressing their audience on the camera. So like we joke about Modiji, that he knows where the camera is, is this, these kids know where the audience is at all times, and they're constantly catering to their audience, which then becomes kind of bigger and bigger.[00:23:56] Manisha: So that's one aspect of the protest. Uh, that's the Instagram [00:24:00] aspect of it. And in some ways I feel like the impulse is the same as taking a selfie near a dangerous cliff point. You know, it's that same, because some of the stuff that they're doing, they're going towards the cops. [00:24:11] Priyanshi : Hmm. [00:24:12] Manisha: You know, in this riot kind of a situation, they're not scared.[00:24:15] Manisha: They're picking up a tear gas shell, throwing it back. It's not necessarily out of a sense of revolution or whatever, but just that it's great. This is a [00:24:23] Priyanshi : great reel. Adrenaline [00:24:23] Manisha: rush. And, and then you see the same formats. You know, in Bihar also, some kids... It was a very funny reel from Bihar where the [00:24:30] kids are saying, "teargas[00:24:32] Manisha: Because they wanna do the same reel that Delhi did- Right ... with the teargas. Mm. So I think that was something. But I, uh, went to the protest on Monday, and we've been covering this for about a month now, since Dipke came from US. And it's true that, you know, it wasn't gathering the momentum that we saw finally on Monday.[00:24:50] Manisha: One of the reasons I do agree is the weather. It's just been really hot, and the day of the protest was just great weather actually. [00:24:55] Promo : The f- But the visuals of kids being beaten up. We know so many people- Yeah ... we met came only for that. They said, "We [00:25:00] would not have come-" No, [00:25:00] Manisha: no, but I'm talking about the day of the protest.[00:25:02] Manisha: Right. Okay. When I, when I l- reached India Gate, I was just surprised at how packed Delhi was. I walked eight kilometers from India Gate to Jantar Mantar. There wasn't a roundabout, a street that was empty. It was packed with people. And in this- Students were a huge part of it, and we've been covering this since 2022.[00:25:25] Manisha: You know, before elections, we would go to campuses and talk to students about what their election issues are. [00:25:30] Since then, we've been hearing paper leaks. This protest, I've heard of exams I've never heard in my life, D.Led exam. Primary school teachers, if you wanna become, you have to crack that. Mm-hmm. Paper leak.[00:25:43] Manisha: Yeah. You've[00:26:00] [00:26:00] Promo : been doing that campus show for- [00:26:01] Manisha: So- ... [00:26:02] Promo : years ... [00:26:02] Manisha: but there's some- there's an added layer to it, which is that when you talk to these young people, at the protest I spoke to a lot of people who've not given... A lot of young people who haven't come even... Not given NEET or any of the competitive exams. It is that even if there's no leak, there is a great sense of anxiety among young people on what the future holds for them- Mm[00:26:23] Manisha: in terms of job opportunities, what they can clear. Because our [00:26:30] system, in one way, our exam system, and I think this is also a sort of a pushback against our exam system, which has been drilled into us since independence. Mm-hmm. So in that sense, it's not just Modi or whatever, but how we look at the entire education system as an exam system.[00:26:47] Manisha: We're essentially not educating ourselves, we're clearing exams. [00:26:50] Song : Right. [00:26:51] Manisha: And in that system, we celebrate toppers. Every annual, you know, exam cycle, we know what the topper did, who's the topper. [00:27:00] Topper Mm. The crores of people who don't get through are just brutally pushed aside. So this protest is also about the people who aren't toppers.[00:27:10] Manisha: Yeah. [00:27:10] Promo : Yeah. [00:27:11] Manisha: You know, and the people who've, who've just not cleared it. [00:27:14] Promo : And also [00:27:14] Manisha: one- And there are scores of people like that ... [00:27:15] Promo : and one refrain that I've heard, of course, very unoriginal, that you have never taken a NEET or any exam, why are you part of the protest? We'll address that later. But [00:27:22] Manisha: Shardul- [00:27:24] Promo : Which is idiotic because- Yeah.[00:27:24] Promo : I mean, of course, we'll come to that- Yeah ... uh, in a bit. But Shardul, you know, before I go back to Chetan, [00:27:30] uh, on the political messaging, you know, last night we saw what Modi Ji did, and JP Nadda being the compromise man. Although I think had ethanol not happened, Gadkari would've been the perfect compromise guy because he has, at least he used to have this, you know, kind of, uh, he...[00:27:47] Promo : The most reasonable voice of the government kind of reputation earlier. [00:27:50] Priyanshi : Mm. [00:27:50] Promo : Um, which is why I think Mr. Modi didn't like him. But on the political messaging, both from the government and the movement Do you think there's [00:28:00] clarity on either side? [00:28:01] Shardool : On the government side, I see hubris, a lot of it, that we can manage this.[00:28:05] Promo : Of course. And [00:28:06] Shardool : the other, other thing is I sort of... This is an issue most of the time you, you know, you find you, you f- look for information on an issue. I am sort of an opposite expert. Like I know every way this education system alienates brilliance, which is not conformity. [00:28:24] Promo : Mm. [00:28:24] Shardool : Right? So it's a strange thing for me.[00:28:29] Shardool : On political [00:28:30] messaging, this government initially thought they would be able to handle it, and you saw it through this fake narrative of first Chinese, then- [00:28:39] Promo : Right, American, then apparently, uh, they were [00:28:43] Shardool : told, "Stop this on American." Anti-sentiments of Sonam Wangchuk. Mm. Then there was some channel, uh, I think with Bangladeshi- That was a bit [00:28:47] Chetan : racist, guys, don't you think?[00:28:48] Chetan : That whole Sonam Wangchuk and [00:28:50] Promo : Chinese thing. Chinese, [00:28:51] Shardool : yeah. [00:28:51] Chetan : Like did you even notice the racism in that like coming [00:28:54] Promo : through? Yeah, [00:28:54] Shardool : exactly. That is [00:28:55] Promo : tone deaf. [00:28:56] Shardool : And, and, um, then, then JP Nadda made peace with him. Mm. Like [00:29:00] th- this is like "... personified." [00:29:02] Promo : Mm. [00:29:02] Shardool : But, uh, also, um, on the CJP part, like in my honest assessment, and I have friends who are there right now, and every day, every night they are working there.[00:29:13] Shardool : I can't because of my physical limitations, although I want to. [00:29:16] Chetan : Mm. [00:29:16] Shardool : I did go on Saturday. It was... But that's a different topic. Mm. I'll maybe cover it when we talk about journalists. [00:29:22] Promo : Mm. [00:29:23] Shardool : But they were not sure, and in- What [00:29:27] Promo : the demands should be. [00:29:28] Shardool : No, no, they were not [00:29:30] sure that they would get such a response.[00:29:32] Promo : Right. [00:29:32] Shardool : Like, a- a... You work with ISC, you know conceptualizing a protest and then handling people- Mm ... and ex- expecting 10,000 but 50,000 turn up, that's what... How do we manage this? Mm. And you see it that initially what you guys were saying, initially on ground support was not there. Then the support was there, but maybe it seemed like they were not organized enough.[00:29:56] Shardool : And you see it on 20th when two [00:30:00] representatives were with Nadda Abhijit Dipke was alone and Wangchuk Sonam is in hospital. [00:30:05] Promo : Mm. [00:30:06] Shardool : About the hospital part, and I wanna say this, with this, Sonam Wangchuk was taken to Safdarjung, and his wife is fighting case in court for a very strange reason. He says, "Shift me to Medanta."[00:30:18] Shardool : He's not under detention, but he cannot leave the hospital. Mm. [00:30:21] Chetan : So [00:30:22] Shardool : essentially what the point I'm trying to make about politicization is government miscalculated, and now still with Modi Ji's post last night, I [00:30:30] don't think they'll recogni- They'll never need to ... recognize the gravity of the situation. [00:30:34] Priyanshi : Ri- right.[00:30:34] Priyanshi : So- [00:30:35] Manisha: But the numbers on 20... Actually, no one could have anticipated. I'm sure the organizers were saying, like, they were expecting 50,000, but even I was not sure. I was genuinely shocked by the number that turned up on a Monday. [00:30:45] Shardool : No, no, I was giving an ex- [00:30:46] Manisha: And on a Monday. [00:30:46] Shardool : I was giving an example from the people management perspective.[00:30:49] Shardool : Like, you were expecting 10,000 log attend karenge. You expect ke 12, 15 ho sakta hai, if got. But you do not expect- Lakho mein. Lakho mein aa gaye. Lakho. And the other thing is, which you guys will come up [00:31:00] to, but I wanna say this, the funny aspect in all this, I have a view that, like, the teenagers and young people of India were always very funny and edgy.[00:31:09] Insert 2 : Mm. [00:31:09] Shardool : It's just the channels of information or thought dissemination were very controlled by English-speaking intelligentsia and very elite. Now, it's in everybody's hand. [00:31:19] Promo : Mm. [00:31:19] Shardool : Like, we were talking offline that the people- Right ... who are saying ke young log aise baat kar rahe hai. Abhi tu kis chote shehar ke GIC mein nahi kya?[00:31:24] Shardool : Kya baat kar raha hai ? Correct. [00:31:27] Promo : The, the whole, yeah, the language. What's his name? The [00:31:30] person, he's from Teental, right? Uh, the Kamlesh, uh- [00:31:32] Manisha: Ah. Oh, he said that- From Amstak ... some of the abuse- some of the posters are very abusive ... [00:31:36] Promo : abusive and stuff. Yeah, I think this is what people overemphasize, and it really has no impact.[00:31:42] Promo : But Chetan, your thoughts on the You know, virality we've discussed, but how clear should messaging be when it comes to any protest? I mean, the same criticism we've seen IAC. Is it about Jan Lokpal or is it about, you [00:32:00] know, corruption or is it about political parties? Is it about election funding? Is it about this?[00:32:03] Promo : Is it about... Because there is no such pure protest, right? Every- everyone is there for a different reason. In fact, I saw one really idiotic post that was sent to me with this long, he's of course an investment banker type, saying, "I guarantee you 90% of those people would not know how the NEET is, the show, the workflow of where it is set, where it goes," which was the same point this goon, tucchha person called, uh, Rajat [00:32:30] Dalal, I think is his name, that pehalwan who was on Bigg Boss, who was earlier known for slapping children, abducting or...[00:32:36] Promo : He was there peloing gyaan, which was the same gyaan being peloed by this investment banker on Twitter, that 90% of them do not know XYZ. I'm sure 90% of, do, you guys don't know what an SDM does. I mean, that, like, that's the most daft logic. [00:32:52] Insert 2 : Yaar ye political mudde saare utha rahe hain. Aam Aadmi Party wale apni cheez bol rahe hain.[00:32:53] Insert 2 : Rahul Gandhi chaar cheez bol raha hai. BJP wale chaar cheez bol rahe hain. Main kisi party se nahi hoon, na mereko judna. Mera mann karega jisko usko vote dunga. Jab mann karega vote dunga. Par bhai baccho ki toh baat hi nahi ho rahi. [00:33:00] Bacche bolte kahan dikhte[00:33:07] Insert 3: hain? Shut up, bhai. Shut up. Just shut up. Chup ho ja. Shaant reh. Kutte, bhonkh mat. Theek hai? Kisne maanga nahi tujhse support, bematalab hero mat ban aage.[00:33:30] [00:33:36] Promo : So one is can you expect purity in a protest? Second thing, uh, Chetan, put on your hat as you have cleared some of the most difficult exams in our country. You were in the IIM Ahmedabad, you were in IIT. These two places are probably the most difficult places to get into even now after 30, 40 years. What is the mindset of someone who is taking that exam?[00:33:57] Promo : What was your mindset? Did you give a shit [00:34:00] about politics? For example, I have been a guest lecturer in IIM Ahmedabad. I've been a guest lecturer in Pune Symbiosis and in JNU. I will tell you, the kids at IIM Ahmedabad were really nice, well-meaning, but their political awareness was at two. Mm. The people at JNU, their political awareness was at eight, nine.[00:34:19] Promo : Symbiosis were about seven. [00:34:22] Chetan : Okay. [00:34:22] Promo : Is the mind- [00:34:23] Chetan : So I think [00:34:23] Promo : to- Is the mindset that I just need to clear the exam, I don't give a shit about politics. It's single-minded in that sense. So therefore their- Yeah, [00:34:30] so- ... involvement in protests will be less than someone who is not taking that exam but is more politically aware.[00:34:34] Chetan : It is true that if you're preparing for these competitive exam, the work is so much that you don't have time to really- Mm ... be aware of the politics of the country or definitely not be involved in it. And- How [00:34:45] Promo : many hours a [00:34:45] Chetan : day did you [00:34:45] Promo : study when you were taking it? [00:34:48] Chetan : A-a lot, like six, eight hours. But it's not just that.[00:34:51] Chetan : Having said that, once you get into places, maybe not IIM. IIM Ahmedabad is a very different one-year MBA. People have already done jobs. [00:35:00] It's not-- It's a different age of people, post-grad, and lot of people with work experience and all. In IIT Delhi, for example, um, there was a lot of participation in the Mandal protests.[00:35:10] Chetan : Hmm. I-- Those happened during, uh, my time. Hmm. And, uh, uh, I mean, I have a friend who is still my friend today. He got shot in the leg. He still walks with a limp. Hmm. So again, cops, his own people supposed to protect him. So you are... But in general, people are not. There are a few. Those who get [00:35:30] into it, like Arvind Kejriwal is IIT guy, right?[00:35:32] Chetan : Hmm. Those who get into politics really go full on. But generally, you are right that these people who are actually the thing. But it brings-- It's linked to your first question also, is does it have to be a pinpointed paper leak band hone chahiye? Because even right now, I think the government has taken cognizance, but they are thinking, "Chalo paper leak band karte hai."[00:35:50] Chetan : Okay, let us say they, they, they say, "Okay, we will close the paper leaks." However, is any of you married here? [00:35:56] Promo : Manisha. You are married? And I [00:35:58] Chetan : heard [00:35:58] Promo : [00:36:00] Shardul- Yeah ... used to be. Hmm. [00:36:01] Chetan : Okay, Shardul, you used to be. So supposing Shardul, one day you didn't keep the plate in the kitchen, and your wife, uh, is upset with you.[00:36:10] Chetan : "Tum phir nahi plate rakhi," right? Yeah. Okay, she's upset about the plate. Now, she stays angry for three days about the plate. Do you think it's usually just about the plate? [00:36:19] Shardool : Obviously not. It's not about the plate. [00:36:21] Chetan : Right? That's just a trigger. Hmm. Ah. So that's exactly what's going on here. It is never just about the NEET.[00:36:29] Chetan : And, uh, even if you fix [00:36:30] the NEET, yaar, firstly, not everybody in the protest is appearing for NEET or entrance exams. [00:36:34] Manisha: Yeah. [00:36:34] Chetan : Even if you, even if you plug all paper leaks, it's not gonna miraculously make everybody get seats, right? You're probably gonna ... Even if half the seats are getting leaked, uh, are unfairly being given, it's, it's gonna be 10,000, 15,000 more seats, and there are 22 lakh kids taking the test this.[00:36:51] Chetan : It's like a rounding error, the kind of extra- Yeah ... seats that will come in the system. That is not the case. But I think there was a culture, and I think [00:37:00] it happens to a lot of people. It happens in, to famous actors, it happens to writers also. The-- That's why I stopped you when you kept on chidhava me about how the mob was coming behind me in Jaipur, that we start believing they love us Everybody loves me- Mm-hmm[00:37:17] Chetan : and they will always love me. Mm.[00:37:23] Chetan : That happens. It happens. I, I empathize with that feeling because you feel whatever decision I'm taking, [00:37:30] I'm getting reelected. Mm. People like my authoritarian style. People like my centralized way of doing things. People like my decision-making, which is quick and completely not consi- And whatever I do, I can do no wrong.[00:37:42] Chetan : People are maybe get a little bit upset, but, you know, at the end of the day, they still love me. Mm. They're just a little upset with me, but they're not gonna leave me. They're not gonna s- like, start abusing me. And then you start believing that. And that was all going on [00:38:00] fine, like I said, and the students, Gen Z was happy in their reels and everything, but for the brutality, right?[00:38:07] Chetan : Right. And the government has had- And that was a trigger for a lot of people. That, that was a trigger See, that was a trigger, and see, the gov- the big people ... People say celebrities don't talk, businessmen don't talk. Why? Because they have a lot to lose, right? Mm. So they don't talk. Gen Z has not much to lose So they are now talking.[00:38:27] Chetan : The only thing the government can do to them, w- to a [00:38:30] person who can ne- has nothing to lose is what? Beat them up. Hmm. Violence. Jan to sabko pyari hai. They tried even that, and I think that's when the Gen Z said this is too much, yeah. Hmm. Matlab like they'll get... They didn't, they just felt this is too much going on.[00:38:45] Chetan : I can tell you one thing, fixing the paper leaks is not going to solve things for them. We have missed the boat on manufacturing, right? We don't have factories like China or even Vietnam where there's like jobs. No jobs are- Yeah ... [00:38:56] Promo : I mean, job creation has to, there has [00:39:00] to be a huge rethink on just how they're incentivizing enterprise.[00:39:05] Promo : Yeah. Entrepreneurship is not incentivized in this country- [00:39:07] Chetan : Yeah ... [00:39:07] Promo : only big [00:39:08] Chetan : businesses. And entrepreneurs are not speaking. I can tell you this also. I do a lot of events for FICCI, you know. These people don't speak- Hmm ... right? Because they have so much to lose. Hmm. Next day one inspector will come to their factory and, you know- Seriously[00:39:20] Chetan : so they, they don't, they don't speak. So the feedback mechanisms to the government, even if they want to, like, at the end of the day, if there's more business, there is [00:39:30] more money going around, it's good only for the government also, but they, they are not getting that feedback. And b- now the results, who bears the brunt?[00:39:38] Chetan : Okay, the, the entrepreneur doesn't grow from 50 crores to 100 crores because of, uh, not such a great policy, but it means he cannot create, uh, 100 jobs. He can only create 30 jobs, right? So 70 jobs are gone. Who's suffering? Gen Z is suffering. [00:39:52] Promo : Not just that, even if you see data-wise, wherever there has been exponential growth in jobs- Hmm[00:39:57] Promo : it is done by SMEs. [00:40:00] [00:40:00] Chetan : Yeah. [00:40:00] Promo : Large corporations after 10, 20,000, the rate of adding jobs is almost flat lines. It is the ones between hiring between zero to 500 that- [00:40:12] Chetan : Yeah ... [00:40:12] Promo : those are where the jobs are created. [00:40:14] Chetan : And you need all kinds of job. Our IT sector, you look at the stock prices of, uh, all our big tech companies like Infosys and TCS, all are down 30, 35%.[00:40:22] Chetan : Hmm. This is not a joke. These are big companies. Because they are not expected to make that much money, right? [00:40:27] Promo : Okay, one, one, o- one last question I have, [00:40:30] uh, Chetan, before we move on to the next, and I think we have a journalist joining us in five minutes. You, uh, have often been credited On the upside, that you know what the youth is thinking, which is why your books would sell more than anybody else's.[00:40:44] Promo : Like, there was no ... Because you got the nubs. On the downside, the cynics have accused you that you see which way the wind is blowing, and because you have a ability- Yes, they say ... of, of bhaa-poing that before others can bhaa-po it- Mm ... you go that side. Because you were [00:41:00] accused of being a Modi bhakt in the beginning when you said that this man has, has hope.[00:41:03] Promo : Then when you became a critic of him at certain times on issues, I know you got hugely pushed back, push ... You got pushback from there. Now, we see a lot of Salman Khan, of course, has gone most bizarre- ... daft tweets, which is not that I expected anything else from Salman Khan. Yes. But a lot of, uh, uh, celebrities are coming up with sincere, committed positions, like Sonakshi Sinha and others.[00:41:27] Promo : And they come- some coming up with nothing [00:41:30] positions. «Ki dekh lo, let's all be nice, be friends», et cetera, like Salman Khan A, do you think that you gather the pulse and the marketing brain in you says, "Okay, this is which way it's going," because you don't have such a committed ideological dogmatic position?[00:41:47] Promo : Or do you think it is more about you being non-combative that, I mean, you're not getting into the with X or Y, right? If this is how the majority is thinking, you analyze it, this is why they're thinking this way, so let's give it a [00:42:00] shot. [00:42:01] Chetan : I am not a ideolog- I, I'm not a ideologically-driven person That I know.[00:42:06] Promo : Mm-hmm ... [00:42:06] Chetan : I'm a pragmatist, and I'm not necessarily anti-establishment either. Mm. Okay? Certain aspects of this movement are anti-establishment, but I am that the movement is extremely valid, but let's find a solution, okay? So I don't know what position that is. That's the position I always take, that some, depending on the lens you have, if you're ideological lens, completely pro students, then, then you'll say, [00:42:30] "No, why haven't you abused the government?"[00:42:32] Priyanshi : Mm. [00:42:32] Chetan : And if you're a pro-government, they'll say then why? So that, that it- the centrist always gets it from both sides. Uh, sometimes it happens to News Laundry also. [00:42:40] Dhanya : Mm. [00:42:40] Chetan : Uh, but it's the centrists who change the world. Extremes don't change the world. They make the most noise. Because the centrists are heard, at the end of the day, my voice still counts because of that.[00:42:53] Chetan : I don't need marketing, Abhinandan, anymore. I don't need it. I've been around for 22 years. Chetan Bhagat will remain the same only now. The [00:43:00] brand has a certain positive aspect to it, negative aspect to it from a pure marketing term. I don't need it. I, I didn't even... I, I actually wasn't even speaking on this protest.[00:43:08] Chetan : A lot of people started saying, "Why aren't you talking? Why aren't you talking?" But it's pretty obvious to me that the government missed the boat. It's pretty obvious to me that the students had a point. It's also pretty obvious to me that if the paper leak is also stopped, all their dissatisfaction won't go away.[00:43:22] Promo : Right. [00:43:23] Chetan : It's, it's, it's fun analyzing all this, and I now am at a stage in life where I don't have to sell. I don't have [00:43:30] to ... I don't need fame to be successful anymore. I mean, I, I am successful. [00:43:34] Promo : So, so I- ... I, I, I just was the, the cynic in me was formulating an answer for you when someone said, "Why aren't you speaking up?"[00:43:41] Promo : You said, "I don't have a book coming out anytime soon." So maybe- [00:43:44] Chetan : I don't have a book. No, no but I- Maybe- ... like I said, even if I did- But, but [00:43:46] Promo : see, quick pro tip to [00:43:48] Chetan : someone- But I'll tell you one thing, Abhinandan. Go. I, I will ... I've not got a Padma Shri, I have not got Rajya Sabha seat. I have not got... I don't get...[00:43:54] Chetan : I mean, it's, it's just, it... You know, a lot of people get. [00:43:56] Promo : Mm. [00:43:57] Chetan : And, I mean, so I... It's fine. You [00:44:00] know? It's, it's, it's... I'm happy to be where I am and, uh, in my own skin. Um, people can say all sort of thing about News Laundry. Ask the news anchors what they think about Manisha and her show. It's their nightmare. You come in their nightmares, Manisha.[00:44:14] Manisha: Good. [00:44:15] Chetan : They wake up at night thinking like you are on their, on- Manisha's, Manisha's- On the... But I'll tell you one thing, Manisha, I want to tell you one thing. Mm. I'm sure you know this And firstly, your job is really funny sometimes and it's linked to this movement. A lot of the media [00:44:30] is frustrated- Mm ... at the way they are supposed to act and the diktats they get Journalism is not a profession people join to make money.[00:44:40] Chetan : Mm. Right? It is like a foolish people who join, honestly. Well, you need that foolish passion. Correct. It's a bit like writing, in a way. Sure. If it comes, it's great. Mm. Okay. But when I wrote my first book also, it was... I was in a bank. I, but it's not a money trade. [00:44:54] Priyanshi : Mm. [00:44:55] Chetan : You do it because you really believe in it, right?[00:44:57] Chetan : Mm. And I think a lot of people are like that, [00:45:00] even in the media, but they are, their hands are tied, their mouths are tied. So when some- And there are not so many options to [00:45:05] Promo : go to [00:45:07] Chetan : now. Where do you go? I agree with Ripu because that's true Yeah, and when these protests happen, if you're noticing, that's, that's also the government will see that, you know, ultimately if the government was loved through and through, it would've been a different thing.[00:45:16] Chetan : Yeah. But the media also is little bit, they also are trying their best to, uh, keep the government happy, but also make sure that the people, the stu- they don't want to isolate Gen Z. They want Gen Z to watch their channels. [00:45:29] Manisha: Sure. [00:45:30] [00:45:30] Chetan : So I think, uh, it's not like... I mean, I know often you make them the target- Mm[00:45:35] Chetan : like as if the anchor personally is like that, and we say they're not brave. But, you know, is it bravery to go somewhere where there is somebody who's firing a gun and bullets? No, they don't [00:45:46] Promo : have [00:45:46] Chetan : to, but- Is it bravery? Like, I don't have a gun, that guy has a gun, he will shoot me. Now, you're not brave enough.[00:45:52] Chetan : You're not going there. Is it bravery? [00:45:54] Promo : But, I, I mean, on that, Chetan, I will say that in some cases, uh, I know many of these people personally, you're right, [00:46:00] they don't... are not ideologically. They will go to whoever throws money on their face, which for me is a vile wa- I can't... Many of them do not need that.[00:46:09] Promo : They've, they can get a decent meal and lead a decent life. Yeah. Some of them are ideologically positioned like that. They are- [00:46:15] Chetan : Wow ... [00:46:16] Promo : so, uh... And of course, some, one can talk about whether to what extent, but I think Manisha wants to say [00:46:23] Manisha: something. No, but I think I agree with you on the fact that a lot of reporters are frustrated, a lot of the anchors are also frustrated.[00:46:27] Manisha: But the star anchors on most channels [00:46:30] are not. I mean, I think- Because the upside is too much for them ... I think they're going b- above and beyond what even the government wants of them often. Like, look at Arnab Goswami, he's spinning stories that not even Amit Malviya is yet on this whole debate. Yeah, and [00:46:42] Chetan : if he's spinning those stories, then on the other [00:46:43] Manisha: hand- You know, [00:46:43] Chetan : so-[00:46:44] Chetan : the Prime Minister is reaching out to the [00:46:45] Manisha: students. [00:46:45] Chetan : Yeah. So why is he like, you know? And [00:46:46] Manisha: on... I just wanna add what, uh, Chetan was saying about the media and connected to the protest. See, this whole thing of feedback loop, that ultimately the government als- also cannot be just satisfied with the media that's praising it all the time because it's cutting them off from the reality [00:47:00] of this disenchanted other- Mm[00:47:02] Manisha: that is unhappy with you. Now, they may not be your voters, and they may not have voted for you, but these people exist, and they're out on the streets today. And one of the key reasons of the profile of people that I met as, you know, uh, protesters, who have a lot of anger against Modi media and all, is that a lot of people simply feel that they have had no place to vent in the last 12 years.[00:47:21] Insert 1 : Yeah. Mm. [00:47:22] Manisha: So this is also a place where you can go out and just vent. E20[00:47:30] [00:47:31] Manisha: So these kind of people have landed up, and it's also because the traditional job of a media that's- supposed to be absorbing anger, that's supposed to be doing debates like UPA time. Whatever UPA was doing, people could go on an Arnab's channel only and rant about Manmohan and whatever, na? And you switched on the TV and you saw that, okay, your concerns are being reflected in the news nightly.[00:47:52] Manisha: Now every shit's going down for you on a daily basis. You're seeing your kids jobless, exam leak, your highway is [00:48:00] broken, your chat is growing. Monsoon, electric you to go low. You turn on the TV and the anchor's telling you, "Kitne achhe hain hum. Vishwaguru ban gaye [00:48:08] Shardool : hain." I, I [00:48:08] Manisha: wanna add something [00:48:09] Shardool : before we move ahead.[00:48:09] Shardool : America, [00:48:10] Manisha: that's adding to that sense of like, where am I gonna vent? And I think this protest has also become a great venting space- [00:48:16] Promo : In fact- ... [00:48:17] Manisha: for those people ... [00:48:17] Promo : exactly this, I'll just come to you, Shardul, uh, 'cause I know- Yeah, yeah ... Chetan has to go. Uh, but on this, I remember in, I think 2011, '12, when,[00:48:28] Promo : uh, Arnab had invented this [00:48:30] new style of prime time news. Yeah, [00:48:32] Shardool : the Nation Wants to Know. [00:48:32] Promo : Times of India had done a half page on this entire style and Arnab and whatever, and they had asked me for my comment because NewsLaundary had opened, so it must be 2012. And I had said, "I don't think it's fantastic journalism, but as- Its space in the television sp-, you know- Yeah[00:48:52] Promo : what it was back then. It occupies an important space because that is where people can rant. [00:48:57] Manisha: Hmm. [00:48:58] Promo : Ranting has a position [00:49:00] against the government. It has a space, and it is an important space. And I remember Mihir, who was a friend of mine as well, uh, and at that time was with The Express, he called me. He's like, "I cannot believe you are endorsing Arnab and that vile style of journalism."[00:49:14] Promo : Of course, Arnab wasn't as insane as it he is right now- Yeah ... where he says, "Put them in jail." But, but I was like, I said, "I would not do that journalism, but there is a space for it." I think that ranting- Hmm ... against the government is important- Is very important ... because otherwise it, everything gets bottled up.[00:49:29] Promo : And when you [00:49:30] only have a Sunil Shetty type saying that ... ye toh bhagwan hai. And for, and this also shows propaganda doesn't work in today's day and age, because imagine- [00:49:38] Chetan : He said, "Kuch toh hai." But- He said, "Kuch toh hai." But Kuch toh hai. Kis [00:49:41] Promo : mein? [00:49:42] Chetan : He didn't say bhagwan hai. He said, "Kuch toh hai." [00:49:44] Promo : Kuch toh hai.[00:49:44] Promo : But, uh, before I, uh, you know, let- ... uh, Shardul have the last word on this, Chetan, you know, any quick [00:49:50] Chetan : thoughts you want to give? No, I, I just a one line on that. It's, I agree with the venting thing, and it's also either it's the media or the opposition. Now, even the opposition is not allowed to s- Hmm ... like, or at [00:50:00] least doesn't get media space.[00:50:01] Chetan : Exactly. And, and, and they, like, they, and then there are people like Raghav Chadha, who are kind of the Gen Z, was sort of- What, what bad timing ... looking, I mean- Think. [00:50:07] Promo : Ta- talk about wanting to be a youth icon and jumping to the BJP, and now not being able to [00:50:11] Chetan : say anything. Yeah. They, they call in finance these people, they bought at the top.[00:50:16] Shardool : Yeah, they bought at the top. What I had to say is related to Chetan. [00:50:19] Chetan : Yeah, Shardul, yes. [00:50:20] Shardool : So because he can comment if he wants. Hmm. So the, Manisha also touched on this a bit, we shouldn't forget, like, and you referenced it about, uh, Atul and Manisha doing [00:50:30] it in elections. Hmm. But the protests about exam leaks, it's not just NEET.[00:50:34] Shardool : Like SSC exam leaks in s- states, exams not happening in state universities, like people taking six, seven years to take BA, BCom. [00:50:42] Promo : And so many people not getting entry into the- [00:50:44] Shardool : Yeah ... uh- Do you remember like it's 15 years since Raveesh did that series of not teachers and it's taking six, seven years. [00:50:49] Promo : Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.[00:50:50] Shardool : One more added. There are 10 protests, major protests going on right now in India. Ken Betwa, we've, Atul has done- Right ... reported. Gujarat mein chal raha hai. Again, farmers. One [00:51:00] farmers we discussed, Haryana border pe rok diya hai. There is in Chhattisgarh where demo- they're demolishing home to build up MLA housing society [00:51:07] Promo : Uttarakhand forests [00:51:08] Shardool : Yeah, Shivalik wala.[00:51:10] Shardool : So this is, this, this protest and this has become a culmination of [00:51:14] Promo : all this Because now it's being seen. All those were happening- [00:51:16] Shardool : Nobody was seeing ... media wasn't [00:51:17] Promo : showing them [00:51:18] Shardool : And, and there is no way to approach. Yes There is no one [00:51:24] Promo : to [00:51:24] Shardool : ask. [00:51:25] Promo : In fact, even when the media had access to Amit Shah, they asked him about his dhoti and lungi- [00:51:30] [00:51:30] Shardool : Oh, God, [00:51:30] Promo : man, yes[00:51:30] Promo : rather than anything else. Yeah, Chetan, uh, give us your, uh, closing comments. [00:51:34] Chetan : No, no, I, I agree with him. I think, I, I think what will be interesting, and that requires another discussion, and you have other things to cover, is that, uh, the question that's in my head is, is this enough to hurt the BJP's political- Mm.[00:51:47] Chetan : Mm ... chances? Is this... And that's a very fascinating analysis. Uh, but, uh, time will tell. So maybe we should have that- Yeah ... discussion some other time. We should, yeah. I think maybe in a week or two we will, uh- Yeah ... we will know because- You know, that is ultimately, that's [00:52:00] what matters. I, I know they keep saying, "Don't make it political," but if it's- But it is[00:52:02] Chetan : not political, would anyone react? Exactly. Like, nobody... So, so political to hai. But, uh, it's, because it's not very obvious, no? It may... It, by the way, it's not like, yo, this, it's game over. No, it's not game over. But at the same time, it's not game on also for BJP right now. So it's a very, very interesting time politically for India.[00:52:21] Chetan : And, and [00:52:22] Promo : any recommendation before we say goodbye to you? [00:52:26] Chetan : Uh, okay. Uh, I read this book, uh, [00:52:30] The Comfort Crisis. Mm. Very good book. Uh, I'm missing the name of the author. Michael something? I don't know. Okay. He, he talks about this whole thing that our evolutionary, we were supposed to be in the jungle- Mm ... and we are not designed to be comfortable.[00:52:44] Song : Yes. [00:52:45] Chetan : And, uh, e- we should... And each chapter is like, feel hunger, you know, feel cold, feel hot. Like, it's, it's fascinating how our bodies are not designed to be in air-conditioned comfort with predictable meals, and how it damages us and, [00:53:00] uh- I see. It's, the author- It makes us comfortable ... is Michael Easter.[00:53:02] Chetan : Interesting concept. Michael Easter. It's amazing. It's, it's changed my life, so yeah. Really? So now you- I try to- So now you forage for food ... sometimes I, I seek a- Now you forage for food and sleep in the forest? I try to do things like, okay, there's no food. Suddenly there's no lunch today. Okay, deal with it.[00:53:19] Chetan : Like, it's not I don't actually forage- ... but I just make it less comfortable. And, uh, yeah, and, like, and I... This whole thing, "AC on karo, AC on [00:53:30] karo, bhaiyya," or, like, "Dhoop hai toh bahar nahin jana hai." Mm. It's not how we were designed. Okay. So, and then, uh, it, it affects our mood to- if you stay comfortable too long, it will have mental health issues, and of course physical health also goes down.[00:53:43] Chetan : So it's a good book. [00:53:45] Promo : All right. Mm. Thank you, Chetan- Okay ... thank you for joining us. Thank you. Have a good weekend. [00:53:49] Chetan : Bye-bye. Bye guys. Bye-bye. [00:53:49] Promo : And before we move on, introduce the next guest, I have a quick announcement to make, which is we have these new stickers which you can proudly put [00:54:00] on your car, on the windscreen, on the back, on the bumper, give it to your friends, relatives.[00:54:06] Promo : We are giving them for free to all our subscribers as a token of gratitude because so many people are writing in and telling us, "You've been covering this for a month. How come you did it and no one did?" And we say, "Because our subscribers made us do that." So if you're a subscriber, you just have to pay for the courier fee of this, and you can mail us.[00:54:26] Promo : There's a QR code, there's a link in the show notes. And if you're [00:54:30] not a subscriber, you can subscribe now. You will get a discount, and you will get this set of stickers for free, which you can proudly display on your car, on your scooter, on your laptop, on your office window, on your house window, wherever you want.[00:54:45] Promo : With that, let me introduce the next guest. We have two guests joining us. Uh, we have with us from a vehicle on the way to, she will tell us where, Priyanshi Sharma. I'm sure many of [00:55:00] you are familiar with her work at Peak TV. She used to be at NDTV, and she, along with her colleague Vedant, have launched Peak TV, which is doing some fantastic work.[00:55:10] Promo : It is so encouraging- Thank you ... to see. And, um, like good uncle, I should say, beta, so proud of you all. This is, uh, Priyanshi. And joining us is our partner in crime and noble acts, Dhanya Rajendran, the co-founder and editor in chief of The News Minute, joining us from [00:55:30] Bangalore. [00:55:31] Dhanya : Yes, and let me tell everyone, when, uh, when Abhinandan comes on our show, South Central, we tell him he can use the F word only thrice.[00:55:38] Dhanya : After that, we beep him. [00:55:39] Promo : Yeah. [00:55:39] Dhanya : And all the other words are not allowed. [00:55:41] Promo : So I have very strict instructions when I appear on Dhanya's show, because her audience is clearly more discerning and dignified than, uh, News Laundry audience, Haftaa listeners. What can I say? So Priyanshi, uh- Um- ... thank you for joining us.[00:55:56] Promo : Are you on your way to Jantar Mantar? [00:55:57] Priyanshi : Yes. No points for guessing where I'm [00:56:00] going. Yeah. [00:56:00] Promo : Okay. So, uh, two quick questions I want to start with you. You have been doing fantastic public interest journalism, and we're going to get into the whole bit about journalists being attacked, heckled, bothered, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.[00:56:14] Promo : Uh, and many journalists have, including, you know, Shekhar, who I had also invited on this show, have said that we warned you of this. I mean, it's a black and white take that everyone should feel safe everywhere, which is- Like saying that we should [00:56:30] all be happy and love each other, which is- ... actually a nothing statement in my view.[00:56:34] Promo : But clearly it, Madhu, uh, Manisha also said that she wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow she's attacked in a crowd, 'cause no one can tell one from the other, right? Yeah. Like I was just saying that when people see a NewsClick sticker on my car, they ask me, "Acha, you support NewsClick?" They don't know who I am.[00:56:48] Promo : So, uh, you have that great journalism. You have quit a comfortable job in a large corporation to struggle your way through your own Peak TV. By the way, does Peak TV take subscriptions and, [00:57:00] uh, audience, uh, uh, contributions? Yes. [00:57:02] Priyanshi : Yes. The link is in our bio. [00:57:04] Promo : So the link is in their bio, and it's also in the window below the window on Hafta.[00:57:08] Promo : So if you would like to contribute to Peak TV, please do so. They deserve your contribution. They're doing some fantastic work. Uh, in spite of that- Thank you so much ... you were attacked and heckled. Tell us about that. What was the profile of people who you think did that? Is it a thought through? And has your position on critiquing, criticizing legacy media changed [00:57:30] because it has real world consequences?[00:57:31] Promo : Although in my view, the two are not connected, but I'd like to know your view. [00:57:34] Priyanshi : So first I'll start with your first question, which is what was happening there. Uh, it was very simple. I was, at that point, my only thought was that I was seeing these students get beaten up and get detained by the police, and I was seeing nobody from, uh, the cockroach Janata party there.[00:57:50] Priyanshi : And after that, even till that point, I thought that, "Okay, maybe they're on the other side and it's very crowded. They can't come to this point." And, uh, it, it was impossible to navigate through that. [00:58:00] It was hard for somebody to make their way from one place to another. So that I could still understand. This is [00:58:05] Promo : Monday [00:58:05] Priyanshi : night when the lathi charge- But then later, after an hour or so[00:58:07] Priyanshi : sorry, ju- [00:58:07] Promo : just if I could hold you. This is Monday night when the lathi charge happened? [00:58:10] Priyanshi : This is Monday morning I'm talking about, when the march started- Okay ... which is when the lathi charge also started. Okay. So the march actually started before the cockroach pa- Janata Party leaders announced that the march had started.[00:58:20] Priyanshi : Mm. Because people started their own march at 9:00 AM. Okay. They didn't wait for any orders. Yeah. And that's why I was questioning that there was nobody there in front of these [00:58:30] people who started the march. It was just people leading the march. Hmm. And that is why they were the first to get beaten up. So the first beatings and detentions happened around 10:00, 10:30, the moment they started breaking barricades.[00:58:42] Priyanshi : But, uh, that's, that's for another time. Uh, after that, what happened is, after an hour or so, uh, after several people have gotten beaten up, they've been tear gassed, they still do- didn't know where to go. The police was, uh, pushing them away, and they were asking them to just leave. But a lot of these people [00:59:00] were not from Delhi.[00:59:01] Priyanshi : They were from different parts of the country. And, uh, they had only come for this protest. They don't know how to navigate away. And I was on that, uh, roundabout of Sansad Marg. And on that roundabout, it was a big group of these protesters. There's a statue of, uh, Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel there. Mm. And there, there are fountains around his statue.[00:59:19] Priyanshi : They were all in that fountain. They were washing their feet. They were- Uh, it was a very weird visual for us to see that they were all in the middle of that [00:59:30] fountain. I do- I don't even know whether you're supposed to be there. [00:59:32] Manisha: Hmm. [00:59:33] Priyanshi : Uh, because I've never seen people that close to that statue other, uh, before this.[00:59:37] Priyanshi : So, uh, it was a big group of those protesters there. Some were trying to go this way of the roundabout, some were g- trying to then go straight because none of them had a route, and that's the, the only thing that I asked one of them, "Do you know where you're going?" And he said that, uh, "I don't know. There's no route map," or, um, and he was from MP.[00:59:56] Priyanshi : He said these are- Hmm ... he's from a small village in MP. Hmm. And he said, "मुझे कुछ [01:00:00] पता नहीं है। अब केजरीवाल कहाँ है? अभिजीत दिपके कहाँ है? ये लोग कहाँ है जो तब आए थे क्योंकि अब हम सब यहाँ लावारिस हैं और पता नहीं।" So the moment he started saying this, a lot of people started coming in, and they first tr- tried to silence him.[01:00:13] Priyanshi : So they started saying, "कि इसको पता नहीं है। हमको पता है। हमने देखा है अभिजीत दिपके को। यहीं पे है।" Um, and they first tried to silence him. And then when I insisted that let him speak, and he's confused, and he can continue speaking, that's when they started, uh, calling me godi media. Hmm. Hmm. And it was a, it was a big [01:00:30] group that suddenly, I don't know where they, uh- Hmm[01:00:32] Priyanshi : it was like a मधुमक्खी का छत्ता that suddenly- Hmm ... gets attracted. Uh, first there were just four, five people, but as soon as they started saying godi media ahi, a big group, uh, gathered around. I think they exercised some restraint because I was a woman. A lot worse, I think, if I were a man or, uh, if they thought that they could, um, get away with doing something more than this.[01:00:57] Priyanshi : And the, the, the day later we saw what [01:01:00] happened with the Times Now reporter. [01:01:01] Dhanya : Hmm. [01:01:01] Priyanshi : Hmm. Um, Dev Katook and he was, his, his clothes were torn off, and all of that happened. And I'm not very surprised to see that because I could see that that crowd was so charged and, uh, it was so angry at godi media. And even day before yesterday, there was a female reporter at Jantar Mantar and, uh, I think from one of the, one of the top news channels only, and they surrounded her, touched her inappropriately, and she, she got out of there.[01:01:29] Priyanshi : She [01:01:30] didn't make a video or anything. She's not posted it, but I know th- this happened as well. Janata Party need, need to control this. They have tried to tell these people and made announcements that don't attack reporters, it's not their fault, blah, blah. Right. But these pe- these people are not in their control.[01:01:45] Promo : The, the crowd is not in control. Yeah. I think that is one big differentiator which we'll also come to, 'cause this is one aspect we explored yesterday also, Manisha. But, uh, Dhanya, on this, uh, you know, before I come to you, just want to say yesterday we had gone to Jantar Mantar, [01:02:00] and Manisha's idea was why don't you go back there as a legacy Andolan jeevi.[01:02:04] Promo : I have been at Jantar Mantar and Ramlila Maidan too- Probably two dozen protests between 2004 to 2012, '13 when I stopped and News Laundry required more attention. Uh, but one big difference in all the protests, you know, right from Aruna, uh, Roy and Nikhil Dey and all of us, you know, in 2005, '06 when we had sat, 2007 we had sat, 2008 we had sat at Jantar Mantar.[01:02:29] Promo : All the [01:02:30] attention used to be around the stage. The stage decided what the crowd did. When I went the night before last, the stage is one... There's one act happening there, like the JLF. There is one act happening outside, there are three other acts happening. Th- no one has control over this, and- Yeah ... that's a good thing as far as numbers are concerned, 'cause our protests never got these kind of numbers.[01:02:53] Promo : But the downside is no one controls that crowd. There's, it's not around one stage. You know, when Aruna said something, I remember we were, [01:03:00] uh, protesting the, uh, Euphoria had come, uh, I had requested Palash to come and perform. The f- uh, file notings were being exempted from RTI, and he from stage said, «Abhi aisa gaana gayenge ye hil jayengi parliament ki deeware,» and he said something about Sonia Gandhi and Italian.[01:03:18] Promo : Arunaji came and the crowd said something. Arunaji came on the mic. She told Palash, "Beta," like a good auntie, "Control what you're saying, this is not a rock concert." She told the crowd, "This is not as go-" And crowd very meekly- [01:03:30] [01:03:30] Manisha: Accepted ... [01:03:31] Promo : accepted. That ain't happening today. So, so that is something that I would like to point out, and the second thing I'd like to point out is while I absolutely understand safety is important, I just think A reporter's, you know, uh, uh, misfortune is amplified when it happens in the hands of our, you know, the protesters.[01:03:54] Promo : Like, for example, we have not advertised, like Navika, one of her protester, you know, [01:04:00] thing gets shoved around. The half an hour show is about, "Oh, Ashish, have you seen the bruises on him?" Have we at News Laundry tweeted those? Have I shown pictures of his bruises? [01:04:10] Manisha: Ashish is our producer over there. He's our producer.[01:04:12] Promo : He was smashed, yeah. That is par for the course. Now, is that this... You know, what I'm saying is that the legacy journalists who said, "We have to be ensured that we will be completely..." Only then is it a level playing field. I just think that [01:04:30] thinking is too, you know, black and white. Anyway, so Dhanya, uh, you know, have, uh, like you said, your audience is a lot more civilized than the Delhi audience.[01:04:39] Promo : No such, uh, situation happened there, and what is your view on this entire debate? [01:04:43] Dhanya : Not as civilized as my audience. Therefore, uh, I mean, I've been heckled many times in southern India, covering different protests, and those did not become news stories then, and rightfully so. Only when somebody's sexually assaulted, I think [01:05:00] it used to become news then.[01:05:01] Dhanya : But I do have an opinion about all these, um, things that are being said about TV journalists being attacked. See, no one is supporting violence, and none of us will ever say, "Yes, please go heckle, harass or assault journalists," no matter which sold-out, horrible outlet they are from. But similarly, it's not just journalists, right?[01:05:19] Dhanya : No human being sh- should be subjected to any violence. Which is why I think at this point, instead of just saying, "Oh my God, journalists are being heckled," and because of TV journalists, other [01:05:30] journalists are being heckled- ... I think we should ask the real questions. As TV journalists, what are you going to do about it?[01:05:35] Dhanya : Because for years, we have given a long rope to these people saying the media are shrinking, there are no jobs, what can people do? They have to report here, poor things, et cetera. But of course, this may be true for some. I'm someone who's wo- worked with a news channel for eight years, and I know exactly how it works.[01:05:53] Dhanya : Reporters are not innocent bystanders. Of course, the bulk of the hatred and the communalism is propagated by primetime [01:06:00] anchors. The editorial lines are given by executives and owners, but reporters on a daily basis are feeding into the system every single day. They are trained to get bites that suit a channel's narrative.[01:06:12] Dhanya : Like at the Jantar Mantar for example, though I was not there, I have seen multiple interviews where reporters could be heard asking people, "Oh, so you want a Nepal-like protest here?" Or there was one particular clip where a reporter was asking a group of four people to w- "Till which class have you studied?"[01:06:27] Dhanya : The man must be in his 30s, and he says, "I've only [01:06:30] studied till 12 standard." The anchor plays it later saying that, "What is a middle-aged 12 standard pass person doing at a NEET protest?" So you are basically not bystanders. You're feeding into the system. But for many years all of you have got a long rope saying that you needed jobs, therefore you're there.[01:06:46] Dhanya : Now that you have got a taste of public outrage, I want to ask these journalists, with all due respect, will you organize and agitate against your own organizations? Will you go back to your bosses, let's say 50 of them, 20 of them, [01:07:00] say that, "Stop this nonsensical coverage. We, you can't put us in the ground at Jantar Mantar, and then we are getting heckled and assaulted.[01:07:07] Dhanya : By evening you are running the same primetime news." So I don't think we should be holding the crowds responsible for behavior. We should be holding the channels accountable for what is happening to their own reporters. Priyanshu was te- saying how, uh, she, from Peak TV, got, got ca- called as godi media when she's not godi media at all.[01:07:25] Dhanya : So imagine she's suffering for something that you all have done for many years. [01:07:30] And no, unfortunately, this change, I don't see it coming. Even during the last two, three days after these attacks have been continuously happening, all the anchors are going back to s- their routine coverage saying, not all, most of them saying CJP goons are protesting.[01:07:44] Dhanya : They are not real students. What is it? China, Khalistan, Pakistan, et cetera. So my last point is that while, yeah, you know, we can... These anchors who are always ranting about how their colleagues are being attacked, you spoke about that one whole show somebody did [01:08:00] about their journalists being attacked. I want to simply ask them, journalists have been killed in this country.[01:08:05] Dhanya : Journalists have been jailed in this country. Why didn't you condemn all that? In fact, you guys were running shows calling these journalists foreign-funded, tukde tukde, and whatnot. So yes, I will condemn the violence against your journalists, but will you also do the same? That's all I want to say. And let's also not forget the kind of verbal violence that all of us are subjected to every single day online.[01:08:27] Dhanya : That's also violence. [01:08:28] Promo : Mm. [01:08:29] Dhanya : Did you ever not condemn [01:08:29] Promo : [01:08:30] that? And especially, I think it makes a big difference if you're male or female, and I, I n- noticed that when once Swara Retweeted me. I'm used to abuse. Dude, I was like, "Sir, please never again." Because the level is next level from- Mm. But I would just like to say, and I think that time Arnab was with, uh, Times Now.[01:08:50] Promo : Um, what you said, the risk, I mean, we didn't run a show. I did not do a production about it. He ran a prime time show saying these people are ISI agents getting their [01:09:00] instructions from Pakistan. I was one of them with my tweet 'cause I had tweeted about something. And Madhu called me. She's like, "Niku, Arnab is running this show.[01:09:09] Promo : He's showing your face as an ISI agent. Be careful because this could be a cause for you-" Real-world action on you. Can [01:09:16] Manisha: I [01:09:17] Dhanya : ask [01:09:17] Promo : when was this? First of all- When was- This was... I don't know. Probably, I think when he was still at Times Now, I'm guessing, or [01:09:23] Dhanya : I don't know. But not the IAC protest. IAC protest [01:09:24] Promo : is- No, no, no.[01:09:25] Promo : Not after that. Much, the, this I'm talking about just, like, maybe f- f- f- like five- No, [01:09:30] I want to add something ... five, seven years ago. So I'm just saying, first of all, fuck off. You know, I really don't care about what you put on your the fuck all show 'cause no one give, takes your fuck all show seriously. But the point is, is that not putting me in danger?[01:09:43] Promo : My co-founder was concerned about my wellbeing, and she is a seasoned journalist. It's a different matter. I'm not a woman. I don't have kids at home, so I really don't give a fuck. But the point is, people like this do this. India Today has taken us to court for calling out their bullshit. [01:09:59] Priyanshi : Mm. [01:10:00] [01:10:00] Promo : You cannot expect sympathy.[01:10:01] Promo : I think that kid who got roughed up, uh, the Times Now kid, but he should go back and ask Navika, "What were you doing when you were calling these people ISI agents?"[01:10:30] [01:10:42] Dhanya : No, that's what I'm continuously saying. And one more thing, people have short memories. In 2011, Rashid Alva, the Congress leader, held a press meet saying that, uh, Anna Hazare is being funded by Americans. Mm. And, uh, why is America so bothered? I was working for Times Now. Arnab was so angry that IAC was [01:11:00] called as American funded.[01:11:00] Dhanya : He ... You know, Congress never went ahead with that conspiracy theory because the channels stopped them. [01:11:06] Promo : Yeah. Now that- You're the serious ... Manisha, you as a, a- I know Smita took a sly dig, uh, the Smita from ANI, that- Mm ... people who started the criticism, they should take responsibility. Uh. So you have to take responsibility for starting the violence because apparently your critique was the first domino to topple.[01:11:25] Manisha: My God. No, so one of the things ... See, what Priyanshi is describing, [01:11:30] uh, you know, her experience of covering when it turned into a sort of a semi, not a riot, but sort of a very tense situation, is the mob attacking her, you know, not knowing where she's from and but it's an, it's an uncontrolled sort of a thing that happened.[01:11:45] Manisha: But I just, I was curious to know from you that while you've been at Jantar Mantar for about a month now- Have the protesters been hostile towards you otherwise when you're interviewing them in that little enclave? No. [01:11:57] Priyanshi : Is there- This was the, this was the first time this happened to me. [01:11:59] Manisha: [01:12:00] Yeah. [01:12:00] Priyanshi : I saw it happening with other people, and I, I saw that especially at this protest because we've covered it successively.[01:12:06] Priyanshi : Here, people knew that we were not godi media. I didn't think that I would face this problem. But, uh, I think it's just that now they think anybody who's trying to ask them some, some, some of these questions will just try to frame them, as Dhanya was saying that they just... It, it is the fault of the mainstream media that they do this very, uh, occasionally, that they will ask you such questions or do you want to do Nepal or where is your [01:12:30] leadership?[01:12:30] Priyanshi : So if they hear such a question, their default conclusion is that they- Yeah ... somebody's asking me this with an agenda. And that's why also they heckle mainstream journalists. It's not just because of the hate that they already have, uh, for mainstream media, but it's also to push these mainstream journalists outside of protest sites so that they are not able to show something or show, push a narrative that these protesters- Yeah[01:12:53] Priyanshi : don't want. Like even in Jaipur, there was a senior India Today reporter at the protest site, and the mob actually escorted him out, [01:13:00] uh- Yeah ... heckled him and escorted him out of the protest site because they just are, are- [01:13:05] Promo : I think Priyanshi is getting close to Jantar Mantar because her- She's, yeah, she's getting-[01:13:07] Promo : her Wi-Fi is slowly abandoning her, so clearly you're very close- Yeah. Oh ... to Jantar Mantar 'cause we are losing you now and then, Priyanshi. [01:13:14] Manisha: Okay, but I just wanna, um... Yeah. So two things I wanna say. One is what are these editors asking, like Shekhar Gupta or Navika, that we have the right to report freely. [01:13:24] Priyanshi : Mm.[01:13:24] Manisha: And, uh, the protesters do not have the right to disengage with us. And the other thing is violence, which I think all of us [01:13:30] agree that we don't want any violence. But this complicated question of am I, as a Times Now reporter, free to report everywhere, and is it an assault on my freedom if the protesters, uh, decide to disengage with me?[01:13:40] Manisha: Like Priyanshi's saying they escorted a, a journalist out. Now, I think you cannot look at this in isolation. The first time that I was heckled was in Shaheen Bagh. And, uh, it happened... So we had gone to Shaheen Bagh right at the beginning where people were very welcoming. They were like, "Come talk to us."[01:13:56] Manisha: They were feeding us. And one month [01:14:00] after we went, people were very suspicious of us. Two, three times I was asked, like, "Stop recording. Stop recording." Women were coming like, "What are you doing?" Everyone want to check my reel. And we had to look at what had happened in that one month. In that one month, Muslim women and children, and these are women and children, so there's a lot of emotions of the entire family attached with them.[01:14:19] Manisha: They were painted as ISI operatives on TV. Things were said like, "These guys want free biryani." You remember [01:14:25] Promo : the show Sudhir and Deepak? Yeah. They'd just meters from them- [01:14:28] Manisha: Okay ... [01:14:29] Promo : [01:14:30] calling them names. You remember Sudhir Chaudhary and Deepak? [01:14:32] Manisha: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like standing in front of them[01:14:37] Promo : saying that. [01:14:37] Manisha: So in that one month, you had had a media call women and children all sorts of stuff. And so naturally after that one month when I went- People were suspicious of a person with a mic. That is she going to now snip something out of s- Because at a protest, yeah, people say all sorts of stuff. If I'm going to go to a child and ask a question and then paint it in this [01:15:00] way that look,[01:15:00] Manisha: Jihadi taraana ga raha hai.» [01:15:01] Priyanshi : Hmm. [01:15:01] Manisha: This has happened to people. [01:15:03] Priyanshi : Hmm. [01:15:04] Manisha: And it has not stopped at Shaheen Bagh. We've seen after Shaheen Bagh, a CAA, NRC protesters. We've seen farmers protests. Why farmers are called Khalistanis. The dr- within one week- Hmm ... they were all painted as Khalistanis. Now, when farmers were saying that, "Zee News, go away," it is their right to disengage with someone who's consistently demonizing them and actively jeopardizing their life because legal action follows the frenzy that- [01:15:28] Promo : Exactly[01:15:29] Manisha: happens in [01:15:29] Promo : [01:15:30] television news. It has, 'cause you are an extension of the state. Yeah, yeah. You see right now how people are- So I- ... characterizing this ... [01:15:35] Manisha: and I feel for a lot of reporters in these organizations. I'm not of the view that, I know that dif- it's difficult to challenge, and I, I don't expect kranti for them.[01:15:44] Manisha: But I think it is up to the owners and editors to please recognize this at least. Stop sending your reporters to these places. You run your propaganda from the, you know, if the, if you don't want harm, stop sending them because you're not gonna stop your nightly propaganda. You're going on, and even [01:16:00] today, now Republic, Arnab is saying that this is, they wanted to lynch RAF.[01:16:04] Manisha: Hmm. CJP guys are CIA agents, Donald Trump agent, pata nahi kya, kya. So ab if you're gonna send your Republic report, it's your fault. The responsibility is on you. Stop sending that person. [01:16:14] Dhanya : I think Republic is sending without logo now. [01:16:16] Promo : Yeah, but I- But this- But I just think that establishing the lo- Oh, lot [01:16:19] Priyanshi : of, lot of channels are sending without [01:16:21] Manisha: logo.[01:16:21] Promo : Even s- [01:16:22] Priyanshi : I've met several of these reporters in person. I, I just want to ask something to Dhanya. Even Shiva dur was there. Yeah. [01:16:24] Promo : Even, sorry, one second. Yeah, Dh- Dh- Dhanya, I'll just come back to you. I just want to go to Shardul after Manisha is [01:16:30] done. [01:16:30] Manisha: So, and, but on the second aspect of what Priyanshi is describing, and this I saw in this protest, on 20th, uh, Monday, out- outs- outside IWPC, there were, there was, like we saw a commotion and we saw Godi media high, high.[01:16:44] Manisha: So I just went to check if there's an anchor stuck there or something, but it was these two MSG officials, two ladies in a sari. And I don't know why, there was a whole mob around them and people chanting Godi media, and the police was protecting them and taking them. People were throwing bottles or whatever.[01:16:57] Manisha: They were not anchors. But [01:17:00] now this is what is worrying, that now- Anyone is Godi ... anybody who looks like a journalist, anyone with a mic has become a symbol of a thick-skinned media that is responsible for your shit life. [01:17:10] Promo : Right. [01:17:10] Manisha: Now it's moved from, so this is not a media literate audience that can differentiate between Godi, non-Godi or, or even watches news.[01:17:18] Manisha: Now it's become this- [01:17:19] Promo : No, and [01:17:19] Manisha: also- ... call to- [01:17:20] Promo : So this is the- ... bhadhas [01:17:20] Manisha: nikaalo ... [01:17:21] Promo : point I want to make is media- To the scan ... is seen as an extension of the state. Yeah. I think, you know what? I- i- in an ideal world, what Shekhar said is true. [01:17:30] A journalist should be able to report without fear, of course. But if you're seen as an extension of the state, will a state actor, should that person be safe in a middle of 500 people who are saying You know, who, who have been called ISI agents, anti-nationals, they should be dealt with roughly.[01:17:53] Promo : It's not a right, give it, I should be able to walk in anywhere, say, "Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, you're all assholes," and then get out of there. Because you [01:18:00] are seen as an extension of the state, you're not seen as a separate entity. So right now many people who are framing this are still framing government, public, media.[01:18:09] Promo : But for the public, media and state are one entity, and that is the problem. And, and if you cannot see that, then I don't know, you've been living under a rock for the last decade. [01:18:18] Manisha: But I think protesters have to also recognize this, and this has to come from the leadership. Disengagement is different from heckling, punching, beating.[01:18:25] Manisha: I completely [01:18:26] Promo : agree. [01:18:26] Manisha: You have to set those lines very clearly. But you cannot say [01:18:28] Promo : that it, it is your right to [01:18:30] get there and report. No. [01:18:31] Manisha: Yeah. Report to the state. Disengagement I think is the right of the other person also to disengage with you. [01:18:34] Promo : Then I should be allowed to walk into the BJP office. Modi Ji, [01:18:38] Manisha: But if you're at a BJP rally they can't beat you up.[01:18:40] Manisha: Like, that, [01:18:41] Dhanya : that's what I mean. But also I, I just want to add two quick points because I know Shardul is waiting. Manisha, you said this is very worrying. I think we are worried about their violence on them. Priyanshi is worried that that violence will g- get onto, at some point will come to her, but those people don't seem worried, the TV channels.[01:18:55] Dhanya : They are continuing with their act every single day, right? I mean, see, not all TV channels. Like India Today, for [01:19:00] example, today has done very good work on the pellet, uh, sh- guns, on how it was used. So sporadically they're all doing very good work also. But how do you expect a mob to differentiate what is good or bad?[01:19:10] Dhanya : And one more thing. Here in, you know, in the southern states, many of these channels are politically aligned. They have... Like for example, when the Udupi, uh, hijab thing happened, a lot of the Kannada channels were instigating, uh, you know, the state against these kids who are wanted to wear hijabs. But it's not a 24-hour, 365-day thing that they're [01:19:30] always anti-people.[01:19:31] Dhanya : Hmm. This is the problem with Hindi and English news channels. Here we know, okay, at sporadically they do act like that. They do act like the state and the media are the same, and they're very communal, but it's not a 24 hour thing. When is the last time you remember an English and Hindi channel actually doing a debate which is of some use to a human being?[01:19:47] Promo : Right? Correct. You're right. It's- Just ... they are seen as an extension of the state because it's consistent. Shardul, please, and then we'll go back to Priyanshi. [01:19:52] Shardool : Yeah, so many points, and I sort of summarize it, like, just take a macro picture. First I want to say right to report. The first [01:20:00] person, first unit, first entity- [01:20:02] Insert 1 : Hmm[01:20:03] Shardool : which took away right to report was the government. Hmm. They were silent. How long has it been since this government hasn't even asked a single question? No press conference. The right to report was first taken away by the government. Two, this, the reality which Manisha talked about, like, especially TV media has been reporting and doing shows which belies the lived experience of people on the ground, and it can only go so far, and [01:20:30] people become angry.[01:20:30] Shardool : Earlier what it used to be, that show was not a hit, but at least there's someone to sort of talk to you and get your grievance out. S- There is some outlet. But here it's not. And- These editors which are outraging online by protesters, they very seldom and very few of them mentioned that police and RAF also beat, you know, hit and brutally beat up a lot of reporters.[01:20:57] Shardool : The one I told you about Lalan Top one. Yes. On the [01:21:00] face he was hit So their outrage is also selective, and we all know the reason for it, because they're scared. This government is vindictive. Hmm. It goes after you. But you cannot say that people who... Young people especially, like, you have no prospects of job, your exams are being canceled, and these are young people, this is a young country, who see everything on social media.[01:21:22] Shardool : In earlier times, the sort of naked privilege of people who have something, especially [01:21:30] politicians and their kids. So the disparity has become too much, and there is no scope for addressing your issues. And two more points which are, like, fascinatingly related to Mahabharat, like, anger is a very useful tool if you know how to channel it and harness it.[01:21:44] Shardool : But you cannot expect people who have been have-nots and have been victimized. Anger is volatile, and it will not discern between who's the, who's to blame and who's innocent. Like, that's the fault of anger. It, it fails to discern that. [01:21:58] Chetan : Hmm. [01:21:58] Shardool : And you cannot expect young [01:22:00] people who have no recourse, they're losing jobs, the ones they are putting effort and years and money, their parents are putting money in it, in exams and tests.[01:22:09] Shardool : They keep failing them, they keep failing them, they keep failing them. So this is a volatile situation. [01:22:15] Promo : So, um, yeah, Manisha, I think you want to say something. Do you want to go first, Manisha- Just ... to, for Priyanshu? I just want [01:22:20] Manisha: to add, just to give the context of the sort of stuff that these guys have done for so long.[01:22:25] Manisha: 2017 piece I remember, Rahul Shivshankar on Times Now had done a story [01:22:30] on a, a coaching academy in Kerala, calling it the hub of conversion. Completely mindless WhatsApp show, Hindu girls are being converted. And he named this coaching academy, Wisdom International or something it was called, I remember.[01:22:42] Manisha: And we were digging up, you know, fact-checking that. And so I called up this person in the coaching center, Muslim person who was running it. He- Prime Time TV had flashed his institution's name, called it, you know, the hub of conversion. There was a real, you know, world threat of, like, an FIR, [01:23:00] this whole frenzy around it.[01:23:02] Manisha: And he was so puzzled, and he was actually worried and said, "Ma'am, why are they doing this? Uh, they, no one... Can you tell the..." He was very in good faith said, "Okay, you know, can you reach out to them and say it's not true? Give my number, I'll talk to them. There's no conversion that has happened here. It is a simple case of a mother complaint, and we've all sorted it, but can you pl- " He was expecting good faith engagement- Hmm[01:23:21] Manisha: from this person who has run this entire show maligning a person. Your whole, you know, your work, where you work. Like, imagine [01:23:30] somebody's put in so much of their money, their life, everything into building a coaching institute, and you just, in one, you know, just for the fun of it, one prime time, you just do a- [01:23:39] Promo : Yeah.[01:23:39] Manisha: Just say, "Yeah, conversion." And that [01:23:41] Promo : has real life consequences- So when you- ... far more significant than a torn [01:23:43] Manisha: shirt. And that is like- Yeah, yeah ... one small thing from 2017 I remember After that relentlessly day and night you've said love jihad, thook jihad, ladki hamari chura rahe hai, ye kar land jihad kar rahe hai, UPSC jihad [01:23:59] Shardool : IAS jihad.[01:23:59] Shardool : Toh bhai [01:24:00] [01:24:00] Manisha: you have, you've poisoned it so badly that I think you are responsible for your reporters, you know- Safety. [01:24:06] Promo : And don't send them. But Priyanshi, you know, me as a boomer uncle- ... don't know the fear it is like to be in the middle of a mob, uh, you know This theorizing in, since you have very recently experienced the, you know, wrath of a mob, which is unreasonable, do you think maybe it is our prejudice talking, [01:24:30] uh, and our conditioning of going at legacy media trying to whitewash this?[01:24:35] Promo : Be brutal. Uh, this is not a polite show, as you've noticed. [01:24:38] Priyanshi : I was anyway going to disagree with some of the things that, uh, you guys said, and I, I think you'll agree with, uh, what I'm going to say. First of all, as Manisha you pointed out, the root is intolerance that media channels have only, uh, fed into the minds of people.[01:24:53] Priyanshi : Intolerance towards anybody who disagrees with you. It's media channels that have taught people that, uh, uh, [01:25:00] people who are just saying something that you don't agree with, or people who are just saying anything against the government are anti-nationals or are, uh, Desh Virodhi and some such. They have, uh, created this intolerance that anybody who you don't agree with is anti-the country and anti-, uh- Mm[01:25:18] Priyanshi : anti anything that is good. So this binary, this extremism has been fed into people through the media. So there's no denying that, uh, this kind of extremism that we are seeing on both sides now, [01:25:30] uh, the mainstream media and the government and this whole ecosystem has had a role to play in that. So this is a Frankenstein monster that's not just created by the cockroach Janata party and their hatred for Godi media, but it has also been created by the other side.[01:25:48] Priyanshi : This sort of binary and extremism has been created by them, so are being targeted. I think it was on July 20th only, if I'm not wrong. Ravish Ranjan Shukla, who's a very senior journalist from [01:26:00] NDTV, um, our senior and we've, uh, most of us have grown up watching, um, his reportage, and he was heckled just because he was holding the NDTV mic.[01:26:11] Priyanshi : So, uh, I would a disagree there a little bit that, uh, the, it's these reporters that also feed into, uh, the narratives that their channel's done. Of course, they have to when they're asked to, when they're supposed to, uh, get certain bites or get certain narratives on some stories. They have to do that. But somebody like a Ravish Ranjan Shukla has done more [01:26:30] human interest stories than, uh, somebody like me or would possibly do in the next few decades, and, uh, I, there, there's no comparison.[01:26:39] Priyanshi : So when we see these kind of journalists whose work, the, this generation that's at the protest doesn't know, and they simply tag them because of the mic ID they're holding, that is unfortunate. Because at that protest, somebody like a Ravish Ranjan Shukla who has done So much quality journalism, more than me, Vedant combined.[01:26:59] Priyanshi : Uh, he [01:27:00] will not be known because that generation did not grow up watching Ravish Kumar and Shukla. They grew up watching YouTubers and people on Instagram, which is why they would know our work, they would not know his work. And his mic ID defines him. So that I think is unfortunate that, uh, without knowing what a particular reporter...[01:27:17] Priyanshi : And that is impossible to know, uh, what each individual reporter does. So which is why I understand that these, uh, these crowds also judge you by your mic ID. That is the only way for them to judge you. But that, [01:27:30] that's the limited point that I disagree on, that, uh, reporters, while they sometimes, uh, while they most of the times have to do what their editors ask them, they also do public interest journalism and, uh, they still try to do that in e- even in those environments that they're currently working.[01:27:46] Promo : So I get that, but are you saying the, but the outcome is inevitable? Because I think let's talk about the, how sad something is, and it's unfortunate, but it's inevitable. Both can be true. Is it inevitable that that... I get it's [01:28:00] unfortunate, you know, but is it inevitable? C- can we pretend that won't happen?[01:28:06] Priyanshi : It is, it is in- inevitable- Mm ... and it's not going to be in control. [01:28:09] Promo : Mm. [01:28:09] Priyanshi : Uh, regardless of what announcements these people make, even if, uh, these news channels change their coverage of, uh, these protests. Let's say tomorrow Republic starts saying that, uh, "Oh, this is a genuine students protest. There's so many parents coming, kids coming, people coming with families."[01:28:24] Priyanshi : Nobody's going to change their behavior because they're not watching Republic. They are not getting affected [01:28:30] by how Republic is currently covering this protest. Mm. Their, uh, mindset and their actions are determined by what Republic has done over the last 10 years. So if tomorrow Republic change, changes their stand, this behavior is not going to change.[01:28:42] Priyanshi : They won't even know whether he has changed his stand. They're not watching his live coverage on what's happening. There's rarely even any internet there, and a lot of people are sleeping there, eating there, doing everything there. But even those of them who are not, uh, will not be influenced that, by that one change.[01:28:56] Priyanshi : So I don't think currently these editors [01:29:00] can change it, they, these channels can change it, so that makes it inevitable. They will need several years of undoing what they have done, which I don't think that they could be doing. So, uh, that makes this inevitable. And the other thing that makes this inevitable is that while nothing's gonna change on the media side, and that will take sustained change, can't happen immediately.[01:29:21] Priyanshi : The other thing is that this crowd is, is completely out of control of anybody. It's not- Correct ... in the control of the cockroach Janata party. It's not in the control of the Delhi Police also. Their [01:29:30] police- Mm ... their cops also when this, uh, heckling and all happens- Right ... they also don't try to do anything.[01:29:34] Priyanshi : So it's a, yeah, as you said, in your protests, the crowd had some control. The people on the stage had authority. Here, that's missing. [01:29:43] Promo : Yeah. [01:29:43] Dhanya : I, I just- Mm. I just want to add something because I am the one who said that reporters are also not innocent bystanders, and I, I stand by it. I'll tell you why. It doesn't apply to all reporters.[01:29:53] Dhanya : I have worked, uh, in, in a TV channel since 2003. A lot of my, uh, peers are now top editors of these [01:30:00] channels. Not all of them are bad. Many of them are doing truthful reporting. Yes, due to the demand of whatever their bosses ask, at times they behave like weirdos, but most of the times they don't do th- these things.[01:30:11] Dhanya : But the problem is that the deeds of- Let's say 50 or 100 are being reflected on a lot of people, and in that we should add reporters also. We are constantly dividing reporters and editors saying that reporters should not bear the brunt of it, only editors should. My simply, simple point is that [01:30:30] reporters are also a cog of that, of that wheel.[01:30:32] Dhanya : They're also cogs of that wheel. They have also contributed to this actively over the f- over the last few years. Maybe not all, but a lot of them have. And I just want to add, uh, Priyanshi, that I don't know if you remember recently Arnab Goswami had suddenly started questioning corruption. Uh, he was questioning corruption by some random person in UP or something.[01:30:51] Dhanya : Mm. And even a minister, I think, and everybody was w- feeling so proud that pe- it our people- ... suddenly Arnab Goswami questioning corruption. So it [01:31:00] won't take years for these channels to actually undo what they did. Even five times if they take the people's side, there are a lot of people who will appreciate them, and hopefully will watch them also, and they'll become relevant again.[01:31:10] Dhanya : They have made themselves irrelevant. Yeah. In fact, in these protests in Jantar Mantar, I think even the independent media, which is a lot of people like us, not you, not Priyanshi, but a lot of the organizations have been made irrelevant because it is the Instagrammers, it is the YouTubers who have covered it.[01:31:28] Dhanya : And I have seen, like for example, [01:31:30] Peak TV interviewed, uh, one somebody with pellet injury much before everybody did. Red Mic and, uh, um, you guys interviewed the RSF commandos before everybody else did, right? Uh, which is I'm talking about bunch of independent media like us, Scroll, Quint, and one of the editors and me were talking about it today.[01:31:45] Dhanya : So things change. How do media organizations become relevant? So all of us are thinking in our newsrooms, what is the journalistic standard that we can apply to this protest? Now, what more can we report? So like that, these channels are not trying to become relevant again. They have become irrelevant because of their behavior [01:32:00] [01:32:01] Promo : Manisha, you have anything to[01:32:06] Promo : add? No, I think Priyanshi's point- Um, I think, uh... No, Priyanshi, um, again, your, your network is abandoning us, Priyanshi. So, uh, Priyanshi clearly is very close to Jantar Mantar because her network has abandoned us all. Uh, but yeah, point taken. Um, you know, I had one more question before we wind up today's Hafta.[01:32:29] Promo : Does this also [01:32:30] show that kids who were 10 years old when 2014, the new India emerged through Mr. Modi, and we are in 2026 now. Those 10-year-olds are 22-year-old today. [01:32:41] Priyanshi : Mm. [01:32:41] Promo : Those eight-year-olds are 20 years old today. The six-year-olds are 18 years old today. That means throughout their lives they have only seen the bullshit media.[01:32:50] Promo : Does it demonstrate that propaganda through media does not work anymore? Because if that is the thesis, that if you feed children [01:33:00] in the impressionable age the right things, by right things I don't mean correct or accurate, I mean the right things to make them believe a certain way, it'll work. [01:33:09] Dhanya : No, but- [01:33:10] Promo : Does it show it doesn't work, but it only works on people my age and the 60-year-olds?[01:33:15] Promo : We seem to have been brainwashed more than them. So is it a failure of propaganda, Mani- uh, Dhanya? [01:33:21] Dhanya : No, I think that o- that's a, that's a test of this ge- that's a test for this generation now. See, because this is an identity-less pro- pro- protest, right? [01:33:30] A middle class, unemployed people, everybody's coming.[01:33:33] Dhanya : That it's safe for everyone to support this protest, even for Bollywood celebrities, right? But the real test comes when tomorrow there is a protest by farmers or Muslims or Dalits, and then the propaganda machinery of these channels and the government works together. We must see how the same Gen Z reacts to that, because they will then stand up and say that this too is propaganda.[01:33:56] Dhanya : So I think, I think we mustn't like over celebrate [01:34:00] also at this moment thinking that, oh my God, propaganda has been, uh, broken into pieces because we will know that only when the next propaganda starts on a group which is attacked only because of their identity. [01:34:12] Promo : So it's... Huh. [01:34:13] Manisha: I was just discussing this with a friend.[01:34:15] Manisha: It is quite ironic that Modi Ji, who spent the last eight years doing Pariksha Pe [01:34:20] Dhanya : Charcha- [01:34:21] Promo : Mm ... [01:34:21] Manisha: talking to students, those students have just said- Yeah ... "No, uncle.[01:34:30] [01:35:00] [01:35:30] [01:35:30] Promo : Propaganda through conventional media means does not work anymore. It is not something that can, that can shape the, the worldview of this generation. Is... Can we conclude that or no? [01:35:43] Priyanshi : Because they're not watching this propaganda. They, whatever they, uh, these channels try to feed into the minds of people, they're not watching it.[01:35:50] Priyanshi : As I told you, they don't know who Ravish Kumar Shukla is. They know who Priyanshi Sharma is or who Manisha Pandey is because they are only watching stuff on the internet. [01:36:00] So propaganda has to work if they have access to this crowd. They don't have access to this crowd. Even if, uh, they try to do, like India Today has, uh, tried to do more of everything, which is their digital- Yeah[01:36:11] Priyanshi : uh, handle, and that they've tried to do for this generation. But you'll see that, uh, more of everything's coverage is very different from India Today. It's not like, uh, the topics that India Today chooses. More of everything has been covering this protest since the start. So for people, more of everything is fine, but India Today is not, because that's what they've been watching.[01:36:29] Priyanshi : And, uh, [01:36:30] the other point that I was making earlier is that now, uh, what I'm realizing is that they have a problem with the, the crowd, has a problem with bigger cameras and something that makes you look like an established reporter. [01:36:41] Dhanya : Mm. [01:36:41] Priyanshi : So, uh, now that we have a mic, sometimes we use our Bluetooth mic, which is just Like you know what that mic is Yeah, yeah, yeah[01:36:48] Priyanshi : you're just holding something in your hand. And, uh, we recently, we got a proper mic made, and there's a mic ID on that. The, it doesn't matter what mic ID is on it, it doesn't matter it has Peak TV's logo [01:37:00] or Republic TV's logo. It has a, it's a proper mic with an ID, that means that you're from a channel, and that's what I realized last night.[01:37:07] Priyanshi : Last night I was there, um, at the same spot where s- stone pelting and some violence happened day before yesterday, and we had reported a day before yesterday. So yesterday when I went there again, somebody told me that he had a big camera in his hand and he was just a freelance rep- uh, photo, uh, photographer.[01:37:24] Priyanshi : He was not even a journalist. He was just there as a part of the protest, wanted to take pictures, nothing more than [01:37:30] that. He was not let inside that crowd, and somebody said, "He up to Peak[01:37:39] Priyanshi : TV That now we don't trust anybody because all of you are the same. [01:37:42] Dhanya : Mm. [01:37:42] Priyanshi : People with mics and, uh, cameras. So, uh, that, when that guy told me that, I tried to verify that and I tried to go in. They didn't let me go in, and they tried to tell me things, he, th- there was a human chain that some of the CJP volunteers had made to, uh, prevent the crowd from going towards the police.[01:37:59] Priyanshi : So that [01:38:00] human chain, chain didn't let me enter. They, uh, they, they tried telling me things, "Keep like, you hope could unsafe ""But they didn't let me enter. So that is happening that now, uh, I think now they will stop trusting, uh, people like us also if we just ask them anything. So while you, uh, you're, you're all right that it's the mainstream media's fault and they will, uh, need to correct this, but it's also the, this mentality of extremism that if you ask me anything that I don't agree [01:38:30] with- Mm[01:38:30] Priyanshi : then I'm going to boycott you. This means that we, uh, people like us might become the new mainstream for them if we just try to do our normal work, which is not always, uh, agreeing with them, which is not always just giving a platform to what they say. [01:38:42] Promo : And you're absolutely right because even an audience as discerning as the Hafta audience, I mean, I'm just...[01:38:48] Promo : I'm not flattering News Laundry or our audience, but typically we have done a profiling. They are a highly educated, highly engaged, media literate audience. Often when we get voices here that disagree with our general [01:39:00] audience- ... a lot of them get very angry, "How dare you speak to so-and-so?" You know? Yeah. I think the whole that we can disagree and talk to each other is something that people don't necessarily want to engage with.[01:39:12] Promo : But on the propaganda, uh, um, uh, since you have been subject to propaganda throughout your growing years as an RSS Shakha- And it didn't [01:39:20] Shardool : work. [01:39:20] Promo : The... Well, in your case it didn't work, it's, I mean, you started attending the Shakha at four? [01:39:24] Shardool : I went to first time Shakha in my Nanaji's lap, so. [01:39:27] Promo : So you were three or four years old?[01:39:29] Promo : No, [01:39:29] Shardool : no. Less than one. [01:39:29] Promo : [01:39:30] Less than one. And then you were attending Shakha in your teens? [01:39:32] Shardool : Uh, of course, all [01:39:33] Promo : my life, yes. So, so, okay, so, okay, here's a case of- In your case, propaganda worked up to a point until it didn't, and then you said, "Why am I in the RSS?" And then you said, "Bye, I'm going. Ta-ta." Or you were never convinced.[01:39:47] Promo : Like, is it a moment? Is it generally doesn't work for some people? Or the more distracted you are, because you also do have ADHD- [01:39:54] Shardool : Yes ... [01:39:54] Promo : prescribed, and therefore Gen Z, which apparently because of T- TikTok [01:40:00] and all that- Mm ... they cannot have attention- [01:40:02] Shardool : Low attention, low attention span [01:40:03] Promo : So that is why it doesn't work on them.[01:40:04] Promo : Is it, is it, is this the upside of, of, uh, you know, not being able to focus? [01:40:08] Shardool : So let me pick this up to the point Manisha and you were making. Right. Like, I, I refuse to assess anything in generations because that's a very m- microscopic view of that person's perspective. [01:40:18] Promo : Uncle way of looking at things. [01:40:20] Shardool : Uncle at the time.[01:40:21] Promo : Huh. [01:40:22] Shardool : Everybody complains of ... Sort of how the nostalgia looks better. [01:40:25] Promo : Right. [01:40:25] Shardool : And everybody complains about what's happening currently- Mm ... once they cross 30s. Mm. [01:40:30] Haina? But- It's, in general, like I'll give you my example. Um, maybe it's my autistic brain, 'cause I'm autistic, too. Love jihad I was exposed to since I was four.[01:40:40] Shardool : Hmm. But it didn't make sense mathematically to me. [01:40:45] Chetan : Hmm. [01:40:45] Shardool : When I was young, it was about 13 crore junta of Muslims in India. [01:40:49] Promo : Hmm. [01:40:50] Shardool : To me, if all of them are bad, that's the largest standing army on human history. [01:40:55] Promo : Hmm. [01:40:55] Shardool : You will never be able to get anything done if everyone is bad. [01:40:58] Promo : Hmm. [01:40:58] Shardool : So it doesn't make sense.[01:40:59] Promo : So [01:41:00] it, so you were never convinced? [01:41:01] Shardool : Yeah, yeah. [01:41:01] Promo : So you were going through the motions 'cause your family made you go through the [01:41:04] Shardool : motions. Yeah, a- and I, I tested them also, but that connects to the point propaganda works to a level. But like a point, th- the point I made earlier, if your propaganda is denying the lived reality of people, then they will not believe it.[01:41:18] Shardool : Of course, like Priyanshi said, the consumption habits change, everything change. But it's, like, psychofancy doesn't win you everything. It may give you some up points, but when you are denying the reality, [01:41:30] the truth always comes out, have you... I mean, all human history, no matter how much you try to suppress it, it may be for a time, but you cannot deny the lived reality and truth of people.[01:41:40] Shardool : And I have one point to make about the reporter thing bec- Mm ... what, disagreement between Priyanshi and this. It's an old axiom which has worked incidentally also to my life, but[01:41:52] Promo : Yeah. [01:41:53] Shardool : Everybody has a right to quit. You just are not ready to pay the price for it. [01:41:57] Promo : Sure. I mean, that is something that I would like to say, [01:42:00] um, [01:42:00] Dhanya : you know- I, I just, can I just make a short point to what- Yeah ... Priyanshi is saying, that in the protest people are saying that if you don't agree with us, then you can't cover.[01:42:08] Dhanya : I think, I think this is a problem of any charged atmosphere, right? For example, uh, a few years ago, there was a Jallikattu protest in Chennai where- Hmm ... you know, the crowd w- is not even comparable to what you see in Delhi. Massive crowds to come on the Chennai Marina Beach. And if I remember, uh, journalists tweeting saying, "Okay, fine, we stand with the protest, but still Jallikattu is a cruel sport."[01:42:29] Chetan : Hmm. [01:42:29] Dhanya : And [01:42:30] for that people would get heckled. Yeah. People would get questioned. Hmm. Uh, so most of these charged protests do work that way, that you have to just agree with everything that's said. That's the hazard of the profession. I'm not discounting that at all. But here it's a different layer of a problem- [01:42:45] Priyanshi : Hmm[01:42:45] Dhanya : where you have done something for many years, which is adding to the anger. [01:42:50] Shardool : May I add one more thing? Yeah. To, because what, uh, Dhanya pointed out, it, it's a very human thing. When your skin is not in the game, apathy is the answer. I don't care about this issue. Like, [01:43:00] g- do a poll of people abandoning iPhones because you can save kids in DRC.[01:43:06] Promo : Hmm. [01:43:06] Shardool : Most people will not. [01:43:08] Promo : Sure. [01:43:09] Manisha: I wanted to add what Priyanshi said about the mic versus Bluetooth is spot on. And I was saying this to a friend of mine. What has happened, like she said, the mic is the enemy. It doesn't matter for many people what the logo says, and this is the damage that Navika and Arnab have wrecked on this profession.[01:43:26] Manisha: You know, earlier in a movie when you want to show a villain, you show a [01:43:30] massa. [01:43:30] Priyanshi : Mm. [01:43:30] Manisha: Or you show Surma. [01:43:31] Priyanshi : Mm. [01:43:31] Manisha: Or you, you know- Show long hair ... the, the evil politician. [01:43:34] Promo : You show long [01:43:35] Manisha: hair. You know, you n- you know you're looking at this person and it's evil. This is what they've done to the mic. [01:43:39] Promo : Ah. [01:43:40] Manisha: That for most people, person with a mic today is somebody dangerous.[01:43:45] Manisha: You need to be scared of them. Yeah. And that is such a profound damage that somebody like a Priyanshi says that, "You know, if I go with a Bluetooth mic, I'm immediately more friendly. I'm immediately your, I'm your person." Yeah. "You know, you don't need to worry." [01:43:58] Priyanshi : Mm-hmm. [01:43:58] Manisha: But I'm with a mic, [01:44:00] everyone's kind of worried, and I think that is really something- Yes[01:44:02] Manisha: television news professionals should worry about. And I mean, these guys really need to think about what they've done. [01:44:09] Promo : Although yesterday when I went there, I... A few people were a little confused that am I a neta because of my white kurta pajama. Yeah, because of your white kurta. Or... And I'm holding a mic, and they said, "Why is this neta holding a mic?"[01:44:18] Promo : You know? So there was little bit of confu... Even the cops. So I went up to the cop, I said, "Aapka bhi dil hai. No one's asking you how you're doing." So he got up, "Nahin, hum nahi baat kar sakte." He was also... I could see the [01:44:30] confusion in his eyes, like, "Who's this dude?" First of all, he's wearing a white kurta pajama, then he's asking us, "Are you feeling well?[01:44:35] Promo : Is your heart hurting?" And at the same time- You do more Insta reels ... he was like, "Who the fuck is he?" So, so he said, "Wahan madam se baat kar lijiye." [01:44:43] Dhanya : Abhinandan, do more Insta reels now that way- Do we, do we have- ... people are watching. Then they will recognize you next time. [01:44:48] Manisha: Do we have time for one question that I [01:44:51] Promo : wanted to [01:44:51] Dhanya : ask Priyanshi?[01:44:52] Manisha: Please. I, you know, I've been watching all these reels, and of course there's you, NewsPinch, and all these guys who are still formal. I'll still look at you guys as new, new [01:45:00] media. But there are these reel makers with these Bluetooth mics precisely, and they are kind of, I wouldn't say egging on the police, but really, uh, kind of questioning the police.[01:45:10] Manisha: Sometimes, you know- Provoking ... provoking is maybe the word. Standing in front of the RAF and saying, "Acha, peet liya, maza aaya, ab kya hoga?" Or going to the Delhi Police and saying, you know, "Name tag kahan hai aapka?" Wada, wada. What do you make of this? Like, what is your opinion of this sort of... Because to me, and the day of the protest- [01:45:30] Uh, you know, there was this one, uh, when, uh, towards the end when it was all ending, there was this RAF battalion there, and there were these protesters there who were kind of saying that, "Vardi, you know, tum hamare taxpayer pe palte ho, hamare tukdo pe palte ho.[01:45:43] Manisha: Aur tumhari wajah se China border ne, uh, you know, border mein hamari naak katayi hai tum logo ne." So it was very cha- they weren't recording themselves. But what do you make of this format of, I don't know, news reporting, but like information coming out of the ground? [01:45:54] Promo : Reel making. [01:45:55] Manisha: Reel making. [01:45:57] Priyanshi : I might sound very stupid in, uh, while [01:46:00] I give this answer, but I'll still say it.[01:46:02] Priyanshi : This is actually something I was discussing with Vedant also, that how brave your journalism is, uh, is now also determined by this. Ki aap police wale ko jake usko provoke kar rahe hain ki nahi. Ki agar woh, uh, ki ye name tag hai usko jake bol rahe hain ya nahi. If, uh, I mean, we, um, uh, uh, we have not been trained to report stuff like this, that if we see that a cop is not wearing a name tag, we will just say it, uh- Mm[01:46:27] Priyanshi : to our audience. Mm. We will not go and ask him [01:46:30] because we know that these cops are not authorized to speak. They will not speak. Mm. So if we know they're not authorized to speak, hum unko jake question bhi nahi karenge. Uh, but, uh, because, uh, these... I think it's, it's good that they come without this training, that they think that they can ask anybody anything and they owe them an answer.[01:46:45] Priyanshi : Isliye woh piche pad jaate hain. They go and keep asking, uh, b- these cops these, uh, these questions. But now, uh, that has become sort of quote unquote, "Brave journalism" that if you're, um, challenging these cops on the [01:47:00] ground. And I saw that some of the, uh, now I don't want to say this a- as a blanket statement, but some of the people who got, uh, lathi charged, uh, some of the, the content creators or the news content creators were also doing this, then going to the cops.[01:47:17] Priyanshi : Of course, the cops reacting in that way does not, is not justified. But, uh, if I see a lot of lathi charge happening, I'm showing my press card and, uh, try to get out of it. There was lathi charge happening in front of me, and [01:47:30] at the end of the day, I actually called one of my friends and he said that, "Are you okay?[01:47:33] Priyanshi : I saw so many people getting lathi charged, and I know that a journalist got attacked as well." But I told him that, uh, nothing happened to me because I kept showing my press card. And I thought that, that, uh, that was fine. But, uh, a lot of these people, uh, were very close to the lathi charge also, uh, sort of in the middle of all of that.[01:47:53] Priyanshi : And, uh, again, this, this might sound like I'm blaming them, I'm really not, but I'm just trying to tell you that that [01:48:00] is becoming the, the measure of how brave your journalism is. Basically- This kind of- [01:48:05] Manisha: And also maybe that kind of innocence which she's saying that, "I'll, I've been trained that don't talk to a cop because they can't talk to you."[01:48:11] Manisha: So we come with that journalistic training. Maybe this also kind of opens up a way to challenge the police, which does need to be challenged. [01:48:18] Promo : I, I think [01:48:19] Manisha: it's also be- And if we are shying away from it- Yeah, [01:48:20] Promo : I think it depends on the generation because- [01:48:22] Manisha: Yeah ... [01:48:23] Promo : I mean, I was a reporter only from '95 to '99. After that, I was a entrepreneur.[01:48:29] Promo : We [01:48:30] used to take a mic to every- I, my first piece to camera was inside a booth while voting, yeah. Now try to take camera inside booth. And I remember I thought I was so clever, and Madhu looked at me and said, "Niku, so cheesy. We'll carry it, but it is so, like, childish." But I was fucking 21, whatever, 20. I folded my ballot.[01:48:46] Promo : This is, I was essentially voting and reporting for Newsrack. And I thumped my- Oh, [01:48:50] Shardool : God ... [01:48:50] Promo : I thumped my ballot in. Now you, you, people would talk. When I did a story on the Olympic Games, the junior, uh, uh, what do you call, coach. [01:49:00] The, I interviewed the judo team, and they were bitching each other out. The, our head coach was Ukrainian.[01:49:05] Promo : The training was happening in Jawaharlal Nehru Stadium, 47 degrees. Ukrainian coach was saying, "They want me to train these weaklings. My Ukrainian wrestlers will throw them. They, they are not fed meat. They need one kilo of meat." The junior coach would say, "Because Delhi heat will not..." The coaches are [01:49:30] bitching each other out in front of each other.[01:49:31] Promo : I, depends on who I wanna talk to. Now, if you want to speak to anyone from the S- Sports Authority of India, SAI, first I will send a letter. They will assign someone, if at all they assign. You see- [01:49:42] Priyanshi : Yeah ... [01:49:42] Promo : in our time you fucking- Mm ... took a mic where the fuck you wanted. I have interviewed Pranav Mukherjee from his house when he used to live, uh, in Lutyens when he was, uh, I, I, I said, "Can you just call him?"[01:49:54] Promo : He came out to the gate. I said, "Sir, just come stand here. The sun is this way." Can you imagine me bloody interviewing Pranav Mukherjee in [01:50:00] 2005 like that? So, you know, it, it, it just depends on what you're used to. So I think- The, it, and again, there is no rule. Some cops talk. Like, for example, when this Sur- uh, the Sukesh who had taken 200 crore from the Ranbaxy- [01:50:15] Shardool : Hmm[01:50:16] Promo : you know, this thing. [01:50:17] Shardool : Yeah. [01:50:17] Promo : When he was being taken from the court to the prison, the ANI mic reached him and he said, "Arvind is like this. Manish is over there." He bitched out everybody, and he had access to the media. [01:50:28] Priyanshi : Hmm. [01:50:28] Promo : When Manish was taken from [01:50:30] the court to the prison, the cops didn't allow one mic to come to him.[01:50:34] Promo : What's the [01:50:35] Dhanya : rule? Yeah. [01:50:36] Promo : Can Goldie, whatever this gangster's name is- Goldie Ta- ... from Ahmedabad, he can issue threats apparently. [01:50:42] Shardool : For Bishnoi. [01:50:44] Promo : The dude, whatever. Pinky Bhaiya. What- [01:50:46] Dhanya : Pinky Bhaiya of [01:50:46] Promo : the- Anyone. So he's a high, he, he... But if you have an AAP MP or a Congress MLA or anyone else inside the prison, you don't even know whether his kidneys have failed or not.[01:50:56] Promo : There is no information. But the others can order [01:51:00] hits. They can decide who is a nationalist. What is the rule? Hmm. So there is no rule, so I'll try my luck. If I were a reporter today, I understand the training, but if I were on the ground- You go ... I would try my luck with the constable also, dude. Hmm. Who knows what I [01:51:13] Priyanshi : might get.[01:51:13] Priyanshi : Yeah, no, I think that's what I was saying, that it's actually good to see this and it's refreshing to see this, and maybe we need to, uh, reverse our training seeing this new kind of journalism. And, uh, one is access, what you were talking about there earlier, you could talk to anybody. The other thing is also emotion.[01:51:27] Priyanshi : Uh, and which, I, again, I think is [01:51:30] where our training becomes a barrier, that we, uh, are told not to show emotions- Yes ... or if you're seeing, uh, police brutality, lathi charge, of course, you say that this is very brutal- Yeah ... and the police are doing this. You will not look angry. Yeah. You cannot sound angry.[01:51:42] Priyanshi : You cannot be lashing out at the cops. But we saw that some of the, the journalists, some of the New Age journalists were, were doing all of that, and they also, they were angry at the pl- at the cops, and they were questioning them, and they were being really aggressive. So, uh, that is also a difference, that we've always told to keep our emotions [01:52:00] aside and be calm.[01:52:00] Priyanshi : But now people also like to see journalists themselves becoming, uh, y- showing their emotions so that they can feel how bad the situation actually was, because if, if you're getting personally affected as a journalist, that tells me how bad it was that even you couldn't keep calm. [01:52:15] Manisha: My only worry [01:52:16] Dhanya : with this- I think that's where mine and Priyanshi's training are very different She was with NDTV and I worked with Arnab Goswami for eight years where he told me, "Be angry, shout, be angry"- Show your emotion[01:52:25] Dhanya : be angry." So. [01:52:26] Manisha: My only worry with this police trend though, and now it's actually a trend, it's [01:52:30] not just journalists, but everyone's doing this cop trend. [01:52:32] Chetan : Mm. [01:52:32] Manisha: You take a panga with a cop, catch it on camera. I'm just worried that it can, you know, when it becomes a content thing, then everyone wants to do it, and dude, this is the Indian police.[01:52:41] Manisha: It's... We have not yet in this context of the Gen Z protest seen its most brutal face. [01:52:45] Promo : Yeah. [01:52:46] Manisha: We have not. [01:52:46] Promo : We haven't. Oh, [01:52:46] Shardool : yes. [01:52:48] Manisha: The students in Jamia did. [01:52:49] Promo : Yeah, [01:52:50] Manisha: exactly. When they barged in, they were- [01:52:51] Promo : Those visuals of [01:52:53] Manisha: those students being smashed- Yeah, yeah ... man. So right now in this r- revelry of, you know, Gen Z- Yeah[01:52:57] Manisha: whatever, and you, cops can [01:53:00] be very... And I don't, I mean, this thing of just egging them on and on, I think it can lead somewhere which can be, can really go out of hand. So I'm just worried, like the millennial in me is a bit worried about that. There [01:53:11] Shardool : are two small points related to this which we sh- we should mention, I think.[01:53:15] Shardool : One is the lagging police reforms law and order, which has- Correct ... order has been- It's been [01:53:19] Promo : since 2006 ... [01:53:20] Shardool : 2007 '07. [01:53:21] Promo : Mm. [01:53:21] Shardool : Right? So almost 20 years. [01:53:23] Promo : Right. [01:53:24] Shardool : No party has done it. And the second one is this, this irreverence and this violence, but this [01:53:30] government is the one who has delegitimized the social value of everything, of Gandhi and Nehru.[01:53:35] Chetan : Correct. [01:53:36] Shardool : They have sort of delegitimized it, and young people, like you said, who has grown up with this government or just before- [01:53:41] Promo : Mm ... [01:53:42] Shardool : they don't hold the same reverent values- ... that we should be peaceful. [01:53:46] Promo : Yeah. And I'm glad you said, "Like you said," 'cause he said, "Young people like you," and I thought that was the end of the sentence.[01:53:50] Promo : And I was about to say, "Okay, thank you very much." But let me give, uh, the last word to our guest, Priyanshi, because I think she needs to get to, uh... By the way, I'm just seeing on [01:54:00] Twitter, Constitutional Club talks have apparently started between Saurav Das and the government. And, uh, Mr. Iyer, Manishankar Iyer has reached the place of the protests- Oh, nice[01:54:12] Promo : which I find ironic 'cause I, I think that man is a horrible human being. I think he is exactly why we saw the right wing emerge. I remember when, uh, I was one of the spokespersons on Jan Lokpal, uh, and I was sitting in Barkha's studio in a discussion, and it was Manishankar Iyer, [01:54:30] there was, I think, Nirmala Sitharaman, and I was, there was I.[01:54:33] Promo : And Barkha was kind of soft batting for the UPA back then. Uh, anyone who's basically, whose interests are aligned with the government in power- Yeah ... will kind of be soft on that side. And he wanted to show us something on the phone, and he had just said, "These gutter snipes, these people from these gutter snipes from the drain, you think we will sit with them and talk?"[01:54:52] Promo : Oh, man. Uh, he, I mean, he is a classic Dosco Stefanian- [01:54:56] Shardool : Elite ... [01:54:57] Promo : I'm not saying all Doscos are like that, I'm Dosco myself, but [01:55:00] he represents that. He had such disdain. So I held out my hand that give the phone because Barkha was there. I'll hand it to keep your hands to yourself Are beta, my hands are to myself, but today you're irrelevant fool who lands up at these protests trying to be relevant.[01:55:17] Promo : Just deserts for Jo bhi doon school mein se khaya hoga aapko. Khair. But, uh, we'll give Priyanshi the last word and then recommendation. Priyanshi, we have a tradition that whoever comes on the Hafta has to give a recommendation before they say goodbye. [01:55:30] It could be a film, it could be a book, it could be an article, it could be a news report, it could be an activity, anything.[01:55:34] Promo : So last word and recommendation. [01:55:36] Priyanshi : Uh, last word would be, um, to cap everything we said, I think, uh, the part of the blame is both first on legacy media for instilling this extremism in people, and the other part of the blame is, uh, somewhat on, on the crowd, um, on, on this crowd mob culture, which can, which just be let loose and, um, allowed to be, do, uh, [01:56:00] uh, allowed to do whatever they want to do.[01:56:02] Priyanshi : And, uh, in both cases, unfortunately, I don't see very short-term solutions. Um, and, uh, if, uh, recommendations, I think I should recommend an activity. The activity I will recommend is playing a sport, because I've not done that in a long, long time, and I think I really should. [01:56:20] Promo : Excellent. I am so glad. No one's ever done that before, actually.[01:56:24] Promo : Which sport would you recommend? [01:56:25] Priyanshi : Uh, I'm, uh, not very good at sports. The only sport I can play is [01:56:30] possibly badminton, uh, because I just used to play that as a kid. As every child in the gully, uh- Mm ... 𝚴garmi ki chuttiyon mein, toh utna hi aata hai. So if I were to do something, I should be doing that because there's no physical exercise in my life.[01:56:42] Priyanshi : So if, if anybody can, they should get physical exercise- Play a sport. Yes. So- [01:56:45] Promo : And realizing the importance ... thank you so much for that. I was just checking, had you said cricket, you would be canceled from News Laundry. [01:56:53] Priyanshi : I don't think I've ever played cricket. Thanks to my gender, I don't think I was ever allowed to touch the bat in my gully cricket.[01:56:59] Promo : [01:57:00] Chalo. That, that, that's the upside I'm guessing of, of gender discrimination. But thank you so much. Uh, and, uh, hope you're safe, and thank you so much for sparing time for News Laundry Hafta. And guys- [01:57:10] Priyanshi : Thank you ... [01:57:11] Promo : uh, uh, Vedant and Priyanshi's Peak TV, they also take subscriptions. The link is in the show notes.[01:57:17] Promo : Do show them your love and support them. Bye. Yes, [01:57:19] Manisha: follow Peak TV. [01:57:21] Priyanshi : Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure being here. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you so much. [01:57:26] Promo : Okay. [01:57:26] Priyanshi : Thank you, Dhanya. See you. Thank you, everybody. Thank you. [01:57:28] Promo : Bye. Bye. [01:57:28] Priyanshi : Bye. [01:57:29] Promo : Hanji, [01:57:30] Dhanya Ji, your closing thoughts and recommendation. [01:57:33] Dhanya : Well, my closing thoughts are how much trouble I'm gonna get in for my opening thoughts.[01:57:39] Promo : Love it. Lovely wrap up. [01:57:42] Dhanya : Um, what is my, uh, I think my reading list this... I mean, there are lots of articles to read, but I think one important one ha- is Common Article 14 Today by Srishti Jaiswal. [01:57:52] Priyanshi : Hmm. [01:57:53] Dhanya : It's on the, um, software which the police are using, uh, to do facial- Oh, yes ... AI [01:58:00] recognition of people. So basically, if you're at the protest, they are, uh, taking your footage, and they are matching with AI, and doing what with that data we don't know.[01:58:08] Dhanya : So she saw... So while she was walking, she saw her face on the police monitors. Hmm. And she took a video of that. [01:58:15] Promo : Yeah, I saw. [01:58:15] Dhanya : So she took an article for, uh, Article 14. [01:58:18] Promo : Hmm. [01:58:18] Dhanya : Um, that is my reading list. And, um, I like the Arundhati Roy article on The Wire, and, um, yeah, we can maybe go check out a protest. If, if you wanna be safe, just watch it from a distance.[01:58:30] [01:58:30] Dhanya : Hmm. Now, if you're not in Delhi, Freedom Park, Kochi, Bangalore, everywhere there are protests happening. Because you all have stayed away from any kind of dissent for such a long time, and when- [01:58:40] Promo : See what it's [01:58:41] Dhanya : like ... you know. See what it's like. This is a bit of a safer protest to be part of because it's a identity-less protest.[01:58:46] Dhanya : So start from there and go there. [01:58:49] Promo : Thank you. Manisha? [01:58:50] Manisha: Yeah. I definitely side with Dhanya's recommendation. Actually, be part of a protest this weekend, guys. Hmm. Go out. [01:58:59] Promo : See what it's like. [01:58:59] Manisha: See [01:59:00] what it's like. 'Cause you guys [01:59:00] Promo : haven't seen one in [01:59:01] Manisha: decades. Yeah. And have fun. I mean, it's also like a mela. Yes. Like when we were also there yesterday, there's so much like food, activity, and the m- my favorite crowd are the parents who come with their kids.[01:59:12] Manisha: Hmm. It's like a civics lesson.[01:59:18] Manisha: It's like, you know, it's a museum of democracy sort of a thing that's happening, so definitely go. I took my [01:59:22] Dhanya : son. [01:59:23] Manisha: Yeah. Nice. Your son wasn't that interested in it though, [01:59:26] Dhanya : na? Uh, he was 15 years old. He was coming. A lot of people were just appreciating his hairstyle. [01:59:30] Hmm. So we were stuck at that point.[01:59:31] Dhanya : Democracy lessons didn't come through. Shardul? [01:59:35] Shardool : I have three recommendations. Hmm. And so many times you have... What, what's the word I'm forgetting? [01:59:42] Promo : Hmm. [01:59:42] Shardool : But given us wisdom through Bollywood dialogues. [01:59:45] Promo : Hmm. [01:59:46] Shardool : One of my recommendation is a game. I changed it. I had a science documentary, but because one of the axioms of that game has sort of become a part of my life, and it is evil is evil, greater, lesser, middling.[01:59:59] Shardool : The [02:00:00] degrees are arbitrary. The definitions are blurred. If I am to choose between one evil or another, I would rather not choose at all. [02:00:08] Promo : Hmm. [02:00:08] Shardool : So it's Witcher 3. It's the game of a generation if you wanna learn storytelling. It's, it's all time greatest top 10. [02:00:15] Promo : Okay. [02:00:16] Shardool : Like- [02:00:16] Promo : Mm-hmm ... [02:00:17] Shardool : more than 100 reviews of 10 out of [02:00:19] Promo : 10.[02:00:19] Promo : Wow. Okay. [02:00:20] Shardool : And it is, it's releasing a DLC. It came out in 2015. Hmm. So 12 years later because they'll re- release Witcher 4 soon. Mm. [02:00:30] It's very cheap and it's worth its price- Yeah ... if you, if you are interested in any type of storytelling and writing. [02:00:37] Chetan : Mm. [02:00:38] Shardool : The second one is, um, yesterday was Chandrasekhar Azad's.[02:00:41] Shardool : We talk about Bhagat Singh a lot- Mm ... but Chandrasekhar Azad also a different kind of animal and- [02:00:45] Chetan : Mm ... [02:00:46] Shardool : he was part of that team. [02:00:48] Chetan : Mm. [02:00:49] Shardool : So his biography written by Malwinderjit Singh BaraiCH. [02:00:53] Chetan : Mm. [02:00:53] Shardool : Uh, Chandrasekhar Azad, a biography. [02:00:55] Chetan : Mm. [02:00:57] Shardool : In these times, it's worth reading how these people thought [02:01:00] and organized themselves.[02:01:01] Chetan : Hmm. [02:01:02] Shardool : And, um, third one is the, we were, we talked so much and I couldn't help but notice that they're saying this generation is irreverent. Hmm. But I would, I cannot fail to but surmise that one of the biggest part is this generation, more than any other in India, is, has grown up on games and anime and animated shit, rather than other things.[02:01:23] Shardool : So, watch X-Men '97 season two, it's there. [02:01:27] Promo : Mm-hmm. [02:01:27] Shardool : How storytelling inspires you when you don't have [02:01:30] to cater to egos of stars. [02:01:32] Promo : Right. Thank you. And I have one recommendation this week, which is Radio Open Source. After a long time, I'm recommending Christopher Lydon's podcast, the, he's considered the father of the podcast.[02:01:44] Promo : The first podcast series, I'm, I don't know if there's any way of actually confirming that, but yes, it's the first podcast I ever heard and that's what he's called. It's called The World Sport: The Common Denominator in the World. Uh, it is a conversation about football and how he's based in Boston, [02:02:00] and how football represents everything that the world is missing right now.[02:02:06] Promo : The li- tagline is, "We're high as a kite on the World Cup. The final test, coming Sunday, is down to Spain and Argentina. My question is whether this frenzied global contest might actually be rescuing our species from itself." And he has two guests, Michael Lavigne, I think that's how you pronounce it. He's a soccer coach at Boston College, and a sports broadcast and journalist.[02:02:25] Promo : It's, it's why I think football is so wonderful, uh, [02:02:30] and cricket is not. Yeah. Uh, of course, leave aside Argentina's behavior in the final. But it really, it, I think it's a must listen because it, it describes football as a celebration of values, where whatever else you say, it, everyone is, every team has that tag, "No racism."[02:02:50] Promo : The messaging, whether you call it, you know, lip service, call it what you want, it, there is a statement which is across the world, because so many countries play it. [02:03:00] Can you imagine the, you know, IPL of cricket saying that? Hmm. India w- will refuse to wear that sticker because we want to discriminate against.[02:03:07] Promo : South Africa will refuse to wear it because the Elon Musk types still exist over there. So please, not only play football, also listen to this podcast. So, thank you so much for joining us, Dhanya. Have a fantastic weekend, and we look forward to many more reports coming. And guys, check out South Central.[02:03:23] Promo : What are you discussing this week? [02:03:25] Dhanya : Unfortunately, we are a bit more violent in South Central about reporters [02:03:30] getting assaulted. Okay. [02:03:31] Promo : You can, you can listen to the more violent version of this podcast on South Central this week with Dhanya and her panel. Thank you. [02:03:38] Dhanya : Thank you. [02:03:39] Promo : Bye-bye. [02:03:39] Chetan : Bye-bye. [02:03:40] Promo : And now for the emails.[02:03:41] Promo : We only read the emails of subscribers. Mm. We have many that have piled up. We will be next week Making sure we go through all of them in our Subscriber's Take. Today we'll go through three because this podcast has gone too long. [02:03:53] Priyanshi : Yeah. [02:03:54] Promo : Uh, but, uh, all the emails that have not been read, we will read them all together next week [02:04:00] in a special Hafta Subscriber's Take.[02:04:03] Promo : Mail us at podcast@newslaundry.com or click on the link below. Only subscribers please. Manisha? [02:04:10] Manisha: Okay, so the first letter is from Dheeraj. The likelihood of this email being read out is very low, as it's not really a feedback email, but just a wind-up email to Abhinandan and football lovers. The final one was one of the most boring games.[02:04:22] Insert 1 : Hmm. [02:04:23] Manisha: But you know that it really looked like an old '80s masala Hindi movie. There was naach gaana to entertain the gangster, Trump and [02:04:30] Infantino, as well as extended over-the-top performances that had no place on a football pitch. But then for a game of hooligans played and paid for by hooligans, by hooligans, the hooligans even gave us a nasty brawl at the end of World Cup too.[02:04:43] Promo : Hmm. [02:04:44] Manisha: Uh, World Cup on two red cards. Yeah. Go on, Abhinandan, it's been a while. That expletives, expletives have n- haven't been let loose. This episode was full of it. I will take it on the chin like all of us gentlemen who offer tea and biscuits watching our cricket- [02:04:57] Promo : Hey, I love that man ... [02:04:58] Manisha: game between six [02:05:00] wickets.[02:05:01] Promo : Nice. Oil b- Well played. [02:05:03] Manisha: Yeah, because, yeah- This is an oil professional ... I don't watch football at all, but, yeah, they don't get enough criticism for this hooliganism, dude. [02:05:09] Promo : Hmm. [02:05:09] Manisha: It is a game by the hooligans, for the hooligans, of the hooligans. Okay. Hmm. Pavit- Pavithra says, "It's been disappointing to hear the latest Hafta, especially the discussion around CGP protest movement."[02:05:20] Manisha: Yes, apologize all of you. It was a mix of apathy and been-there-done-that attitude vis-a-vis the Jan Lokpal Bill movement. Remember, the kids protesting now were probably [02:05:30] toddlers during that time. The on-ground reporters from News Laundry had more perspective. A sound related feedback is to sound check the guest speaker in advance.[02:05:38] Manisha: There was huge difference in the different mic inputs making the podcast listening experience jarring, as I had to keep the volume really high. [02:05:45] Promo : Hmm. Hmm. Okay. [02:05:48] Manisha: Uh, Harshvardhan says, "As a 23-year-old News Laundry subscriber and a regular Hafta listener, our kind of Gen Z- [02:05:55] Promo : Hmm ... [02:05:56] Manisha: that subscribe to News Laundry, I'd like to express my [02:06:00] extreme frustration with the state of policing in India and how police personnel are, and have always been nothing more than lawless goonda gangs backed by the state.[02:06:08] Manisha: This is a cons- this is consistent across political as well as geographical boundaries. I propose changing the scheme of the police uniform every five years to match party colors of the winner. That would at least be more honest reflection of reality." [02:06:22] Promo : That's a very interesting idea. [02:06:25] Manisha: Which explains the Gen Z angst also against the police.[02:06:28] Manisha: Mm. Jokes apart, I believe that [02:06:30] freeing the police from political influence and making it more accountable to the police would mean fixing the very foundation from which stems all other aspects of the state, its monopoly on violence. Do you guys think that there will ever be a realistic scenario where the states and the center come together in the name of police reform and willingly give us a big chunk of their hard power for the greater good?[02:06:50] Manisha: P.S. Book Club Bangalore plans. Where is Dhanya, she left. [02:06:53] Promo : Yes. Uh, happening soon. We're working on it. Yeah. Hmm. Okay. That's, uh- I think, uh, that's the mail for the week. [02:07:00] We shall make sure each one is addressed next week in Subscriber's Take. I'd like to thank our sound recordist, uh, Naresh. I'd like to thank our producer, Amit.[02:07:09] Promo : Is there anyone else behind this? Hassan. Hassan is also here. [02:07:12] Chetan : I'd like [02:07:12] Promo : to thank Hassan, who's there, yes. And thank you Manisha Pandey. Thank you Shardul Katyayan. Thank you. And thank you all. Have a great weekend. Bye-bye.[02:07:25] Song : हम लाए हैं तूफान से किश्ती निकाल [02:07:30] के इस देश को रखना मेरे बच्चों संभाल के। हम लाए हैं तूफान से किश्ती निकाल के इस देश को रखना मेरे बच्चों संभाल के। तुम ही भविष्य हो मेरे भारत विशाल के। इस देश को रखना मेरे बच्चों संभाल के। हम लाए हैं तू[02:08:00] [02:08:01] Manisha: Thank you for your subscription. You're changing the world by changing the way news is funded. For the smoothest News Laundry experience, download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our paywall podcasts. And you'll also get access to all free News Laundry shows. Keep us ad-free and subscriber-funded.[02:08:20] Manisha: Help us grow. Tell people who listen to you to pay to keep news free. Subscribe to News Laundry. Keep journalism [02:08:30] independent

2026/7/25

Inside Congress’s reluctance to embrace CJP

From the outset, the Congress had several unanswered questions about the CJP movement – from its ideological moorings to its proximity to AAP – in spite of its growing popularity.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-07-21/rcc5324g/thenewsminute2026-07-21up5q60r5pw.jpg.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutouts of Rahul Gandhi and Abhijeet Dipke. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>Welcome to this week’s Powertrip, a political newsletter curated exclusively for subscribers of The News Minute and Newslaundry. This week’s edition is by Pooja Prasanna.In this week’s edition, we spoke to party insiders to understand the Congress’s concerns with the CJP movement and why the party is wary of endorsing it.Powertrip is a newsletter that senior political reporters of TNM put together every week. For those who can’t access the full newsletter, get a subscription and read every Tuesday.<h2>Inside Track</h2><h4>Why Congress has kept CJP at arm’s length</h4>Why has the Congress party hesitated to openly back the CJP movement? Why didn’t Rahul Gandhi make a statement on Sonam Wangchuk for days? These are questions that many have asked in the past few days. What we can tell you is that the decision was rooted in both caution and hostility. For the Congress, from the outset there were several unanswered questions.One of the earliest concerns within the Congress was the perception that sections of the CJP, including its founder Abhijeet Dipke, appeared politically closer to the AAP ecosystem. Dipke and other leaders’ past comments on Congress and their proximity to AAP is what made Congress really wary of supporting them.Rahul Gandhi’s inner circle has a few members who are especially wary of the AAP.They think that the India Against Corruption movement that gave birth to AAP and marked the end of Congress’s dominance has been a lesson for the party to be careful while engaging with movements.For the Congress, AAP poses a serious threat in many states, including Punjab, which will see elections in a few months from now.Yet, according to party insiders, there was also a sense that the movement wanted the political legitimacy and national heft that an association with Congress could bring. “For a party that has, over the decades, seen allies, activists, and regional forces rise with its support only to later chart their own course, there was little appetite for a leap of faith,” a Congress leader said.One leader said that what the CJP expected was for Rahul to go to CJP’s stage and endorse Dipke, which was unacceptable to the party. That caution was reinforced by a more fundamental question: what exactly did CJP stand for?Congress leaders privately admit that they were never entirely certain about the movement’s ideological moorings. While CJP spoke the language of constitutionalism and democratic rights, there were doubts within Congress on whether those commitments would hold under political pressure.There were also questions about the movement’s organisational maturity and whether it was equipped to deal with the scale and complexity of the political battle it had entered. Some even wondered about its origins and whether elements of the broader Sangh ecosystem had played a role, directly or indirectly, in shaping its trajectory.As the country’s principal opposition party, Congress viewed the risks differently from civil society groups or individual activists. Backing a new movement is not merely an expression of solidarity. It is also a political investment. What if the movement later found common ground with the BJP on key issues? What if its ideological compass shifted over time? For many in the party, the answer was simple: wait and watch. There was another question that repeatedly surfaced in internal discussions: what was genuinely new about the politics CJP was advancing?Rahul Gandhi was reportedly advised to keep his own movement demanding the resignation of Dharmendra Pradhan and a rehaul of the education system. “Rahul has been asking the same questions in a sustained manner for far longer than the CJP. Why should he merge that with a new movement?” a Congress leader asked.The movement’s growing popularity, therefore, did not automatically translate into a compelling reason for the party to attach itself to it.CJP represented a different kind of phenomenon, a new political formation capable of generating headlines, social media traction, and public curiosity. The question confronting Congress was whether every movement that captured the public imagination deserved political endorsement, or whether credibility and consistency had to be tested over time.The distinction became evident when comparisons were drawn with Sonam Wangchuk. During one internal discussion, Sonia Gandhi is said to have brought up Wangchuk’s campaign, following which KC Venugopal expressed support publicly. But several leaders insisted that the comparison only went so far. In their view, Wangchuk’s issue-based mobilisation and CJP’s broader ambitions belonged to different categories and required different responses.Zero Hour<h4>A political story of public importance <ins><a href="https://scroll.in/article/1094411/why-angry-young-protestors-in-delhi-have-turned-against-modi">Why angry young protesters in Delhi have turned against Modi</a></ins></h4><figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-07-21/bnwriki8/thenewsminute2026-07-210pw04onipt.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption>Ire against the prime minister has rarely surfaced so sharply, cutting across class and religious backgrounds.</figcaption></figure><h3>Powermoves</h3><h5>Top 5 political stories</h5><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/telangana/in-bengaluru-and-hyderabad-blos-point-to-crushing-workload-physical-exhaustion">In Bengaluru and Hyderabad, BLOs point to crushing workload, physical exhaustion</a></ins> <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/news/state-owned-ongc-donated-over-rs-668-crore-to-20-sangh-linked-organisations-across-10-years">State-owned ONGC donated over Rs 668 crore to 20 Sangh-linked organisations across 10 years</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/news/what-is-union-govts-viksit-bharat-shiksha-adhishthan-and-why-is-it-being-opposed">What is Union govt’s Viksit Bharat Shiksha Adhishthan and why is it being opposed</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/tamil-nadu/dmk-softens-stance-on-delimitation-bill-signals-support-if-concerns-are-addressed">DMK softens stance on Delimitation Bill, signals support if concerns are addressed</a></ins> <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/news/explained-can-the-government-force-feed-a-hunger-striker-what-indian-law-says">Explained: Can the government force-feed a hunger striker? What Indian law says</a></ins>

2026/7/22

Hafta 598: From Anna to Sonam Wangchuk, can a protest survive without an ideology?

The podcast where we discuss the week’s news. <figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-16/egtq656l/HAFTA-NEW.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="New Hafta cartoon featuring cutouts of Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal, and Abhinandan Sekhri. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>This week on Hafta, Abhinandan Sekhri, Rinchen Norbu, and Anand Vardhan are joined by author Samrat Choudhury (Samrat X) and Poornima Joshi, resident editor of The Hindu BusinessLine.The discussion opens on an issue that has quietly become one of the most unsettling debates in recent weeks: citizenship. The conversation was triggered by Samrat’s own <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/07/13/india-is-nowhere-near-ready-for-a-nationwide-sir-a-passport-scare-showed-me-why">experience</a></ins> of receiving a notice questioning his citizenship, despite holding a valid passport for years. He describes how a passport renewed without issue in 2022 suddenly became the subject of an “adverse police report” four years later, citing a chilling reason: “citizenship not established”.Anand notes that Indian citizenship has never rested on a single document. He argues that the legal framework has always been layered and discretionary, with the Passport Act even providing for travel documents in exceptional circumstances. Samrat, however, maintains that a blue Indian passport is fundamentally distinct from travel documents issued to non-citizens.The conversation then shifts to Manipur, where renewed violence, attacks on security camps, and continuing ethnic tensions have largely disappeared from national headlines. Samrat cautions against simple narratives. “It’s not simply a hill-versus-valley conflict, or a tribal-versus-non-tribal conflict. It’s much more complicated than that.”Rinchen argues that regardless of its complexity, the crisis reflects a profound governance failure by the Modi administration. “Manipur has been in a state of perpetual civil war for nearly three years. This is a complete failure of political mediation and internal security.” Samrat also takes stock of the human cost and draws one of the episode’s heaviest comparisons. “People are not getting medicines; they’re not getting food or fuel. It’s a situation we’ve heard about in places like Gaza – and it’s happening so close to home.”Finally, the panel broadens the lens to ask what makes a protest movement successful. Drawing parallels between the Anna Hazare movement, the farmers’ protests, and Sonam Wangchuk’s agitation, they debate whether protests need strong ideological foundations.Poornima Joshi argues that successful movements require organisational backing and ideological depth, pointing to the RSS’s behind-the-scenes role during the Jan Lokpal movement. This prompts Abhinandan to challenge the panel: if the RSS – one of the most effective political entities of our time – is actually fluid in its ideology, is that fluidity a strength or a weakness for a movement?Rinchen notes that ideology is important, but argues that enduring movements are defined by demands for systemic change rather than immediate political concessions. As he puts it: “My concern is that their (CJP) demands are not structural. They’re not systemic. It’s resignation, compensation... but then what?”All this and more.<iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ec3d9497cef7479d2ef4798/6a5b192462e50b14bde06ee8" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/MnloNd-y370" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnloNd-y370" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>Hafta letters: <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/07/18/hafta-letters-subscribers-on-satluj-debate-kps-gill-and-the-world-cup">Subscribers on Satluj debate, KPS Gill, and the World Cup</a></ins>If you want to write to Hafta, <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/podcast-letters">click here</a></ins>. Click <ins><a href="http://newslaundry.com/sena">here</a></ins> to contribute to our Sena project. Check out the<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/store?routeName=NlStore"> Newslaundry store</a></ins> and flaunt your love for independent media. Download the<ins><a href="http://www.newslaundry.com/download-app"> Newslaundry app</a></ins>. Song: <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=copZrmeUCQI&list=RDcopZrmeUCQI&start_radio=1"> </a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfz3tiMurBI&list=RDwfz3tiMurBI&start_radio=1">Allah Megh De Paani De Re</a></ins>Timecodes00:00:00 - Introductions and announcements00:03:00: Headlines00:20:24 : Citizenship, Passports and the State's Discretion00:34:01: Manipur unrest00:51:56 : Do Protest Movements Need Ideological Moorings?01:12:13:: Samrat’s recommendations01:13:10: Anna to wangchuk protest01:37:55: Letters01:54:42: Recommendations—------------------------------------------------------------------------------References<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/book-club">NL -TNM Book Club registration</a></ins><ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/mmmk">NL -TNM Joint Subscription </a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/subscription?ref=header">Legal Fund Campaign</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/podcasts/south-central">South Central</a></ins><ins><a href="https://newslaundry.typeform.com/to/GadoHPkn">The Bollywood power quiz</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/07/17/the-bollywood-pracharaks-who-found-their-place-in-modis-orbit">The Bollywood pracharaks who found their place in Modi’s orbit</a></ins>—------------------------------------------------------------------------------RecommendationsAbhinandan Sekhri<ins><a href="https://scroll.in/article/1094264/why-the-ed-is-going-after-a-bjp-leader-in-mahadev-betting-app-case">Why the ED has arrested a BJP leader in a money laundering case</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6Etk_f6iqI">As you follow 'Satluj' row, Punjab police's fight against terror & assassination attempts on Ribeiro</a></ins>Anand vardhan <ins><a href="https://indiankanoon.org/doc/46932/">Jyoti Basu & Others vs Debi Ghosal & Others on 26 February, 1982 </a></ins><ins><a href="https://share.google/aske6HtL9Bvm9hfKM">People'S Union For Civil Liberties & Anr vs Union Of India & Anr on 27 September, 2013</a></ins><ins><a href="https://share.google/Lx1e07fHIJKuK4nzb">Kuldip Nayar vs Union Of India & Ors on 22 August, 2006</a></ins><ins><a href="https://share.google/fx3utkXTYTOf8DSwJ">N.P. Ponnuswami vs Returning Officer, ... on 21 January, 1952 </a></ins>Rinchen Norbu<ins><a href="https://www.reporters-collective.in/trc/head-peace-at-gun-point">Peace, at Gunpoint </a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.hrw.org/reports/2007/india1007/india1007.htm">Protecting the Killers: A Policy of Impunity in Punjab, India</a></ins>Samrat X <ins><a href="https://www.amazon.in/Reader-Come-Home-Reading-Digital/dp/0062388770">Reader, Come Home: The Reading Brain in a Digital World</a></ins>Poornima Joshi <ins><a href="https://www.amazon.in/dp/B0H6ZCGS6M">The Tihar Players: A Prison Memoir</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.amazon.in/s?k=catherine+liu+virtue+hoarders&adgrpid=59645624155&gad_source=1&hvadid=356409857701&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9061644&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=5280888071693571076--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=5280888071693571076&hvtargid=kwd-1187605660033&hydadcr=12586_1949504&mcid=63fb6dbea8d531e48044e0d712ba880c&tag=googinhydr1-21&ref=pd_sl_34akxpgff_e">Virtue Hoarders</a></ins>Check out <ins><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VCmV6yr5t1LHE77Xp5-cYhWrQSkhW3A8nix310MvRQU/edit?usp=sharing">previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters</a>.</ins>Produced by Amit Pandey with production assistance from Hassan. Sound by Naresh.Hafta 598[00:00:00] Promo: This is a News Laundry podcast and you're listening to NL Hafta[00:00:30] [00:00:31] Abhinandan: English Yeah Uh,[00:00:39] Abhinandan: we will have two guests joining us today. Uh, one is Samrat. He's an author, academic and a former journalist. He's the author of several books. I will do a longer introduction when he comes. And Purnima Joshi, who is the resident editor of The Hindu business line. They will both be talking about two separate issues that we'll be discussing this [00:01:00] Hafta.[00:01:00] Abhinandan: But in the studio we have our very own Rinchin Norbu. [00:01:05] Rinchen: Hi. [00:01:06] Abhinandan: And Anand Vardhan. Before we get into the headlines, two announcements. We have a legal fund that I had also mentioned last week. Between News Laundry and the News Minute, we currently have 29 cases that we are fighting in court. Over the years, which means maybe the last few years, we have had more than 250 hearings.[00:01:27] Abhinandan: 250 hearings. Wow. That is a [00:01:30] lot of time, money, paperwork, and stress for newsrooms. There is a QR code while this is being announced, so you can... If you know what the drill is, you can do that or the link in the show notes. While we've been lucky to have lawyers who have helped us, often pro bono, often at heavily discounted rates, yet you cannot have those many hearings and expect it all to be free.[00:01:50] Abhinandan: At certain points, people will charge, especially the younger lawyers who do filings, and I see no reason why they should work for free. Uh, so they are paid. Uh, so [00:02:00] fighting intimidation costs money. We aren't backing off. We would not like our resources for repo- reporters and journalism to be taken from there and put into fighting cases, but that is inevitably the fact and the truth of running an organization.[00:02:17] Abhinandan: So we are hoping 500 of you, and I think the last count we have already, I think 184 if I'm not wrong, people have contributed to that. We need 500 recurring subscribers to take care of our legal costs. [00:02:30] So click on the link or scan the QR code. The News Laundry and the News Minute are stronger together, and with you, we are invincible together.[00:02:41] Abhinandan: Please pay to keep news free and click on the link. And we have a Bollywood power quiz. The first part of a series which I must say is very perfectly timed, and I will tell you why later. There's a Bollywood quiz, there is a QR code, and there is a link. I'll tell you more about it as [00:03:00] we go on With that, let's get the headlines which Rinchin shall update us on.[00:03:05] Rinchen: Yeah. So the Delhi High Court directed the center and Delhi government to closely monitor the health of activist Sonam Wangchuk, who has been on a hunger strike at Delhi's Jantar Mantar since June 28th. Meanwhile, the Congress Janata Party announced a march to parliament on July 20th, the opening day of the monsoon session.[00:03:23] Abhinandan: Mm. And finally, I think there's a lot of support coming to them from- Yeah ... uh, politicians. Ev- [00:03:30] even Congress has finally sent- [00:03:31] Rinchen: Finally, yeah ... [00:03:32] Abhinandan: a word of support, right? [00:03:33] Rinchen: So yesterday, I think K.C. Venugopal had issued a statement, and, uh, today, I think Pawan Khera had, uh, come to-- had arrived at Jantar Mantar, I think, to request Sonam Wangchuk to break his fast.[00:03:44] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:03:44] Rinchen: And with the promise that they will also push for the resignation of Pradhan's resignatio- uh, push for Pradhan's resignation. [00:03:50] Abhinandan: Yeah. And many celebrities have also, uh, including Sonakshi Sinha being the biggest star. Mm-hmm. [00:03:55] Rinchen: Yeah. [00:03:56] Abhinandan: And there have been many others as well who have finally weighed in. [00:03:59] Insert: [00:04:00] Sonam Wangchuk.[00:04:20] Insert: यह उन बच्चों के भविष्य के लिए बैठे हैं जो उन्हें दिख रहा है कि बर्बादी की तरफ जा रही है। यह उन बच्चों के लिए लड़ रहे हैं जिन्होंने अपनी जान खो [00:04:30] दी। यह एक system के खिलाफ लड़ रहे हैं जो सही तरीके से नहीं चल रहा। आप जानते हैं, मैं जानती हूं, सब जानते हैं और बहुत सारे लोग चुप हैं। तो मुझसे तो ना रहा नहीं गया। अब जो होना है होगा no problem but मैं चुप नहीं बैठ सकती। यह आदमी single handedly of course with the Kolkata Janata Party.[00:04:55] Insert: मैं इस देश के युवाओं को मतलब बधाई देना चाहती हूं कि उन्होंने अपनी [00:05:00] आवाज़ उठाई हो। सच के लिए कुछ अच्छे के लिए लड़ रहे हैं। पर कोई सुन क्यों नहीं रहा? You know nobody cares कोई कुछ dialogue नहीं खोल रहा। कोई कुछ बात नहीं कर रहा। कोई इनको मतलब इनकी तरफ मुड़ के देख भी नहीं रहा है। And that's when I decided कि मैं भी क्यों चुप हूं। मैं भी तो इस देश की युवा हूं।[00:05:24] Insert 2: I don't want Phunsukh Wangdu to die. If you have a second to just [00:05:30] stop, uh, put down your work from, you know, the new project at work that needs to be completed or the, the household duties or, you know, whatever that you need, and just take a look at what's going on right now. I, I think it would be really, really important for you because, uh, I don't want Phunsukh Wangdu to die.[00:05:51] Abhinandan: But the man who made the film based on- [00:05:55] Rinchen: Yeah ... [00:05:56] Abhinandan: a character, the central character was based on, uh, Sonam [00:06:00] Wangchuk. They have not yet said anything. [00:06:02] Rinchen: No, in fact, uh, I think, uh, recent I was watch- I saw something today on Twitter where, uh, somebody asked Aamir Khan, you know, about, uh, this, uh- [00:06:10] Abhinandan: Oh, really? [00:06:10] Rinchen: Yeah. And he said, no, the character is not based on Sonam Wangchuk, uh, the character of Rancho in Three Idiots.[00:06:17] Rinchen: Um- Hmm ... and I've, I, I guess technically he might be right. Maybe it was not- But isn't, [00:06:21] Abhinandan: but wasn't that the whole USP [00:06:24] Rinchen: at that time when they were marketing the film? Uh, inspired maybe, but I don't know if it was entirely based. I don't know. Like, I'm not sure, uh- Like, [00:06:27] Abhinandan: based, inspired just become vague and [00:06:29] Rinchen: lost[00:06:29] Rinchen: yeah. Yes, a [00:06:30] lot of semantics involved, yeah. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, he said, no, uh, it was not based on, uh, Sonam Wangchuk, uh, the character Rancho. Yeah, we'll discuss [00:06:37] Abhinandan: in more detail. [00:06:38] Rinchen: Yeah, we'll discuss that in a little more detail. Uh, anyway, uh, the Nagpur cyber police have filed an FIR against several social media creators accusing them of running a defamatory campaign against Nitin Gadkari.[00:06:48] Rinchen: The case comes amid a growing online row over the government's E20 fuel policy. In other news, Arvind Kejriwal urged PM Modi to give consumers the option of choosing between regular petrol and ethanol-blended pet- [00:07:00] fuel at petrol pumps. [00:07:01] Abhinandan: Technically, that option is available as- [00:07:03] Rinchen: Hmm ... [00:07:03] Abhinandan: Gadkari said, but for regular petrol you have to pay 170 rupees, which is almost double the price- Yeah[00:07:08] Abhinandan: of the regular, uh, of the E- ethanol induced. [00:07:11] Rinchen: A mob attacked an A- Assam Rifles camp in Manipur's Senapati District on Tuesday night, pelting stones, vandalizing the premises and setting three security vehicles on fire. The violence broke out around 9:30 PM, just hours after the Assam Rifles launched a search operation in the area based on intelligence inputs about the presence of armed [00:07:30] cadre.[00:07:30] Abhinandan: We will discuss this in a little more detail as well. [00:07:32] Rinchen: Actor turned politician Koel Mallick resigned as a Rajya Sabha MP for the TMC on Thursday, just three months after being nominated to the upper house. Mallick is the fourth TMC Rajya Sabha MP to quit following the party's defeat in the West Bengal Assembly elections in May.[00:07:46] Abhinandan: Hmm. So clearly it's falling apart. In fact, even, uh, some councilors of the AAP- [00:07:51] Rinchen: Hmm [00:07:52] Abhinandan: Cross voted in Delhi. [00:07:53] Rinchen: Oh, wow. [00:07:54] Abhinandan: Uh, so yeah, there's a lot of- ... people abandoning their parties and suddenly [00:08:00] finding love for the BJP. [00:08:01] Rinchen: Uh, the Ministry of External Affairs clarified that an Indian passport is issued to facilitate and regulate the overseas travel of Indian citizens, and is granted only after thorough vaca- verification process.[00:08:13] Rinchen: The clarification comes weeks after ministry officials stated that a passport is primarily a travel document and not proof of citizenship. [00:08:21] Abhinandan: So on cue, we have a person who had some trials and tribulation getting his passport. His name is Samrat, and Samrat [00:08:30] walks in on cue. Samrat, your entry is even more perfect than Sanjay Dutt's in Durandhar.[00:08:35] Abhinandan: Okay, so the timing is absolutely right. So here's your mic. Your audio check will happen as we speak. Okay, I'll just put this off. But you can put your phone on silent. So now I can give you, before we continue the rest of the headlines, the more detailed introduction of our guest. Samrat Chowdhury is author, academic, former journalist.[00:08:55] Abhinandan: He has written several books including Northeast India: A Political [00:09:00] History, and the editor volumes on themes or identity and belonging. There's a link in the show notes. You can order the book from there. Uh, so Samrat, before we get into the headlines, 'cause we are gonna be talking with you primarily about, uh, this whole citizenship and, and, uh, what happened in Manipur recently, which has suddenly vanished from the headlines, but things clearly there are not, uh, back to normal.[00:09:25] Abhinandan: Uh, a bit about, uh, this, uh, [00:09:30] your passport. You've written a piece on that on News Laundry. Anything that wasn't on the piece that you wanna share or on, on what was the complexity and, uh, and problem in getting a passport? [00:09:43] Samrat X: No, no, I already had the passport. [00:09:45] Abhinandan: Oh. [00:09:46] Samrat X: So, uh, my passport was, uh, it was a reissue. Mm.[00:09:49] Samrat X: I've held Indian passport since 1993. [00:09:52] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:09:53] Samrat X: And, uh, so my passport was reissued in 2022 And, uh, from the [00:10:00] regional passport office in Kolkata. And it was a very smooth process. I applied for a Tatkal renewal because I had somewhere to go in a hurry. And, uh, so it was renewed. I got it within one or two days.[00:10:13] Song : Hmm. [00:10:13] Samrat X: I think within two days it was in my hand. And it was a very smooth process. And then, you know, that was it. Nothing happened then. And then suddenly, now four years later, a letter from the RPO arrived at the [00:10:30] address mentioned in the passport, my permanent residential address in Kolkata, where my parents live, and where until recently I used to live.[00:10:40] Samrat X: And, um, so, and over there, uh, you know, it just said that, uh, basically that, uh, uh, I had to return and, uh, go to the RPO immediately to, uh, clear an adverse police report, which- [00:10:57] Abhinandan: Oh, so you had a valid active passport? [00:11:00] [00:11:00] Samrat X: I had a valid active passport. [00:11:01] Abhinandan: Oh, it wasn't like you were reapplying or- No, no, no. Okay. Okay.[00:11:05] Abhinandan: Clearly I haven't read the piece. Hmm. [00:11:07] Samrat X: So, so then, uh, so then I had to, you know, uh, appear there, and it basically said if I didn't show up within 21 days, then my passport would be canceled automatically- Hmm ... within, after 21 days. And, uh, so then I had to show up immediately. And, uh, the curious thing was that, uh, you know, sometimes it happens that, uh, [00:11:30] they might say that the, you know, police verification didn't go through because there's a problem with your address or something like that.[00:11:36] Abhinandan: Hmm. But adverse police report. So what, were you collecting hafta from Bengal? You know, people who do hafta- So- ... are always in trouble. Hmm. [00:11:43] Samrat X: So, uh, you know, the, the, the thing is the, the ground cited was citizenship not established, and that really alarmed me because, uh, well, I mean, you know, it's a serious question, a matter of citizenship.[00:11:57] Samrat X: And besides, I've grown up in Northeast India where- [00:12:00] In any case it's always ... this [00:12:01] Abhinandan: history of, [00:12:01] Samrat X: of, uh, you know, uh, people being, uh, sort of suspected of being Bangladeshis, all Bengalis being suspected of being Bangladeshis has a long history. And, uh, here I was in Bengal finally for the first time in my life getting a passport from the state of West Bengal, and I am ethnically a Bengali.[00:12:20] Samrat X: And, um, suddenly of all the places in the world, it's there that they are said citizenship not established. So it was alarming and distressing at the same time. I [00:12:29] Abhinandan: [00:12:30] find it... I mean, I actually have a lot of sympathy for many journalists including, um, I forget her name. She, I think, used to be with Network 18.[00:12:36] Abhinandan: She still is. You know, when initially the MEA had said, "As per the Passport Act, it is a travel document not [00:12:43] Insert 2: a..." Hmm. [00:12:43] Abhinandan: So they all started parroting that, "Oh, these people are outraging." Yeah. "They should first read." [00:12:46] Insert 2: Yeah. [00:12:47] Abhinandan: Now that they've paltered- ... that it is a travel document for citizens. For [00:12:50] Insert 2: citizens. [00:12:51] Abhinandan: You know what I find really bad about the chaatus of this government or any government is 'cause government will change its point of view- Yeah[00:12:57] Abhinandan: depending on what is convenient and what is... Absolutely. But these guys [00:13:00] have committed their position. [00:13:01] Rinchen: Yeah. [00:13:02] Abhinandan: Don't they say, "Yaar, ek toh hum aapki chaat ke. We are repeating what you say." Then you change what you said two weeks later, how does it make us look? Well, in case you're wondering, it makes you look like idiots.[00:13:10] Abhinandan: So I understand. We'll get the rest of the headlines out of the way, and then we will discuss. [00:13:14] Rinchen: Yeah. Uh, a Delhi High Court convicted former AAP councilor Tahir Hussain and four others for the murder of Intelligence Bureau employee Ankit Sharma during the 2020 Delhi riots. The court also found Javed, Anas, Nazeem, and Kasim guilty in the case while ac- acquitting six other accused.[00:13:30] [00:13:30] Abhinandan: You can read, we have done extensive reporting on the riots. Uh, you can read those bits. Some of our critics, and we should have critics, will say that our reporting on this case Uh, should stand null and void based on the conviction that has happened. But I would suggest you read the full report based on the information available then, and, uh, don't just go by two-line tweets that you see.[00:13:59] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:13:59] Rinchen: [00:14:00] And the fact that those who instigated these riots are- [00:14:02] Abhinandan: Oh, yeah ... yeah The, the one man who on record has threatened riots is minister. [00:14:06] Rinchen: Mm-hmm. [00:14:07] Abhinandan: But everybody else is in jail. Hmm. [00:14:09] Rinchen: A total of 11.21 lakh candidates cleared the NEET UG 2026 re-examination, the results of which were announced by the National Testing Agency on Thursday.[00:14:19] Rinchen: Nearly 20 lakh students appeared for the June 21 retest, conducted after the original exam was scrapped over an a- alleged paper leak. [00:14:26] Song : Hmm. [00:14:27] Rinchen: More than 92 lakh women were reportedly dropped from the [00:14:30] beneficiary list of the Larkibhan Yojna in Maharashtra. The opposition has accused the government of using the scheme for electoral gains, while the CAG has flagged alleged financial irregularities, including overspending and the parking of funds in virtual personal deposit accounts.[00:14:46] Abhinandan: Of course, this has not happened in the, you know, dramatic style that the CAG used to hold press conferences. [00:14:54] Rinchen: Yeah. [00:14:54] Abhinandan: Uh, even if they did, uh, would it be covered the way it was [00:15:00] covered earlier? But this has completely gone under the radar. There's not much- [00:15:05] Rinchen: Yeah ... [00:15:05] Abhinandan: on this. And another case that is just not there, I think Scroll has done some fantastic reporting on this I can just mention it right now.[00:15:14] Abhinandan: Vikas Garg, who was convener of BJP's Delhi Economic Cell in '24, he was arrested in the Mahadev- [00:15:21] Rinchen: Yeah, betting- ... [00:15:22] Abhinandan: betting- ... [00:15:22] Rinchen: app scandal [00:15:23] Abhinandan: And it has, it's like just not a part of any major narrative from legacy [00:15:30] media. [00:15:30] Rinchen: The Rampur, the Rampur Development Authority has ordered the demolition of 38 out of 40 buildings at Mohammad Ali Johar University in Uttar Pradesh, citing a lack of mandatory approvals.[00:15:41] Rinchen: Only the medical college and academic block have been exempted. The university was founded by jailed Samajwadi Party leader Azam Khan, who headed the Maulana Mohammad Ali Johar Trust that ran the institution until he and his family resigned from it in January. And in other news, the Department of Space has issued a memorandum aimed at [00:16:00] retaining scientists and engineers after nearly 100 ISRO personnel reportedly resigned from various centers across the country.[00:16:06] Abhinandan: So within a month the government has, ISRO has not confirmed the number. [00:16:11] Rinchen: Yeah. [00:16:11] Abhinandan: But there is a very dramatic rise in... They say this is normal, but clearly it's not, because the change is that now no voluntary retirement or resignation will be accepted. Uh, I'm not surprised in a government where people like Ramdev are considered credible voices of medicine-[00:16:27] Abhinandan: and the kind of shit that our ministers say. [00:16:30] We've discussed this earlier. Mm. The complete lack of any- Scientific temper ... scientific temper or rigor. We are in a, you know, age where p- people right on top want to create an extra 2AB. Uh, but I think this is very telling of what impact it has when people at the top- [00:16:47] Rinchen: Yeah[00:16:48] Abhinandan: are basically, uh, you know, superstitious buffoons who don't believe in engi- you know, historical evidence or education. [00:16:56] Rinchen: Yeah. And some of the reporting also suggests that the people who resigned, [00:17:00] uh, was involved in the Chandrayaan and various- Yeah ... other sort of landmark ISRO projects. [00:17:04] Abhinandan: There is also some Gaganyaan mission which says that- Yeah[00:17:05] Abhinandan: if you basically, if you are a part of an incomplete project, you cannot resign till the project is over. Mm. I don't know what the constitutional validity of that is, because to the best of my knowledge, that's bonded labor. [00:17:15] Rinchen: Mm. [00:17:15] Abhinandan: But anyway. [00:17:17] Rinchen: Uh, the election commission extended the deadlines for house-to-house verification under the SIR of electoral rolls in Delhi, Punjab, Karnataka, and Telangana.[00:17:26] Rinchen: The timelines for publishing the draft and final voter lists have [00:17:30] also been pushed back. In Delhi, where the process began on June 30th, the verification drive has been extended by 10 days, and will now continue until August 8th instead of ending on July 29th. [00:17:41] Abhinandan: So I'm, I just filled my form by the way.[00:17:43] Rinchen: Yeah. [00:17:44] Abhinandan: Fingers crossed. I will get my voter ID card and I will be a citizen. Mm. [00:17:48] Rinchen: I've yet to do that. I need to get on it as soon as [00:17:51] Abhinandan: possible. Yours will be in Delhi or Ladakh? [00:17:52] Rinchen: In Delhi, in Delhi. Oh. Yeah. Um, the United States and Iran have sharply escalated hostilities with Washington carrying out strikes near [00:18:00] Tehran and targeting a vessel it accused of breaching its naval blockade.[00:18:04] Rinchen: Iran responded by launching missiles and drones at US allies in the region. [00:18:08] Song : Mm. [00:18:10] Rinchen: And finally, the stage is set for the biggest night in world football. Defending champions Argentina will take on Spain in the 2026 FIFA World Cup final on July 19th. For the next two days, I am Spanish. [00:18:22] Abhinandan: All right. So before we get into the serious political discussions, you're Spanish.[00:18:29] Abhinandan: Anand, do you have a [00:18:30] preference or you really don't give a shit? Since it's not cricket, a true sport. [00:18:34] Anand: Means any sport I don't watch with any alli- allegiance to a team. Yes. [00:18:39] Abhinandan: Right. Samrat, if you say you're not interested, your passport as a Bengali should be withdrawn. Uh, and his status as a Bengali should be withdrawn.[00:18:50] Samrat X: Well, uh, unlike, uh, I think a lot of Bengalis who are Messi fans, I am not, so I will also be Spanish on this occasion. [00:18:59] Abhinandan: [00:19:00] Right. Even I'm Spanish on this occasion, and my reason is very shallow. My reason for supporting team is very shallow. Like for example, I was supporting, uh, till last year I was supporting Crystal Palace.[00:19:10] Insert 2: Oh. [00:19:10] Abhinandan: Why? Because Vieira was their coach for a while, no? Oh, Patrick Vieira. And he used to be my favorite player back in the Arsenal days. So I was supporting Germany, they were kicked out, then I switched to someone else. So I'm like, my only reason, I didn't give a shit. I mean, I wanted to watch the game, but because of how Argentina behaved after the game, I just hope Spa- Spain [00:19:30] smashes them.[00:19:31] Song : Yeah. [00:19:31] Abhinandan: I just think they're such a badly behaved team. They- Just for that reason. [00:19:35] Rinchen: Mm. That [00:19:36] Abhinandan: re- That, that ... otherwise, I have no, no dog in the fight. [00:19:41] Rinchen: My reason, my reason to support, uh, Spain over Argentina, I mean, so I'm a-[00:19:48] Rinchen: You like tomatoes, right? Yeah, that's one reason. The second thing is I'm a legacy Brazil fan. Oh. So there's a natural animosity. Mm. Uh, and also the fact that, uh, Argentina have definitely got the rub of the green in a lot of games. Lot ... [00:20:00] Especially the Egypt game, I thought was particularly the, sort of the refereeing errors in that- Yeah[00:20:05] Rinchen: were particularly egregious. He, [00:20:05] Abhinandan: he will agree with you, I will disagree. Yeah. But we should have a separate podcast on the World Cup on this. Uh, not because I support Argentina, but I just think the ... It's consistently inaccurate refereeing. It's, it's not skewed one way or the other. I'm with you. No, I don't agree.[00:20:21] Abhinandan: I don't agree. Okay. [00:20:24] Samrat X: Yeah. [00:20:24] Abhinandan: But, uh, let's get on to more serious issues. [00:20:30] I wanna talk about two things with you, Samrat. One is Manipur. You can just tell us, you know, you've written a book on it, several papers, articles, and you know about that place really well. Uh, but before I get to that, this entire citizenship debate, you are a primary affected party, and like you said, it was very alarming for you.[00:20:50] Abhinandan: I would be scared if suddenly they said, "We are not sure about your citizenship," because it has profound implications. Hmm. And especially we've seen how it's been happening. On [00:21:00] the legal side, you know, we will-- we have also, uh, LL Munnabhai, LLB here. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But through your experience, was there any clarity provided at the police stage, at the, at the stage that why did this happen?[00:21:16] Abhinandan: Did you get that clarity? [00:21:17] Samrat X: No, none whatsoever. So basically, for, uh, Tatkal passport, uh, the police verification is part of the routine process. Yeah. It's supposed to happen at a later date. We've [00:21:27] Abhinandan: all been there, [00:21:28] Samrat X: yeah. And, and usually [00:21:30] it's within about a month or so, roughly- [00:21:31] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm ... [00:21:32] Samrat X: that it's supposed to happen.[00:21:34] Samrat X: In this case, apparently it never happened. And so my passport came in 2022, and this notice arrived in 2026. And, uh, so in the intervening four years, I have not had any contact of any kind from the local thana saying, "Aapka passport verification hona hai." And, uh, suddenly straight away this came with whatever, you know, saying that the pa- passport verification from the police had- [00:21:59] Abhinandan: [00:22:00] And this happened one more case in Bengal, right?[00:22:01] Abhinandan: Of a high profile person, um- [00:22:03] Samrat X: So the former editor of The Telegraph- ... R. Raja Mohan. Right. R. Raja Mohan. Uh, but his case was different- Yeah ... because, uh, he, he had a problem because his name was not in [00:22:13] Abhinandan: the SIR. Hmm. [00:22:14] Samrat X: And, uh, so that was a problem. In my case, my name is still on the voter rolls. All my documents were in order, and thankfully so.[00:22:23] Samrat X: Um, so, uh, you know, so the reason was mysterious and remains mysterious. I still don't know why it happened. [00:22:30] It co- My s- suspicion is that it's just a, you know, the routine bad refereeing that you mentioned. You know? So, so I, so I... Because I can't imagine that, uh, somebody would take the trouble to go after me after I've, I've quit journalism.[00:22:45] Samrat X: It's been years. They haven't taken your passport. Why would they take my passport? [00:22:50] Abhinandan: Don't give them ideas. But I will say that, I mean, it, it is some of the, the way things happen, you know, my [00:23:00] dad died last year. He was a retired army officer, so you know, the pension moves to the mother. Yeah. Apparently there's some spelling difference in two documents of my mother's name here and there, and dude, the kind of hoops you have to jump through just to get shit like that done, which is why, you know, when people...[00:23:17] Abhinandan: There is this one buffoon who I saw on some channel saying that Abhinandan was talking about patriotism is this, that. [00:23:25] Insert: I was like, "You know, guys, [00:23:27] Abhinandan: why don't you go to R&R and see [00:23:30] how people have given their lives?" My dad luckily did not see combat. People who have lost their legs, who have half an intestine because the rest of it spilled out of their guts, you know, when they were shot, how they are treated when they stand in line.[00:23:42] Abhinandan: You know, then you talk about patriotism. Mm. The Modi type guys who can talk about patriotism, who have done jack shit themselves. Absolutely. But people who have really given limbs and body parts, you see how they are treated. Anyway. Now, on the legal side, this whole travel document bit, do you think [00:24:00] government has egg on its face?[00:24:01] Abhinandan: Because it is... I've heard the statement, I've seen the statement. Mm. It is exactly opposite to the position- Yeah ... they took two weeks ago. [00:24:07] Anand: Yeah. [00:24:07] Abhinandan: And does this actually- put credibility to the view that they want an excuse to kind of disqualify you as a citizen. Yeah. It's not that this is what you need, therefore you're a citizen.[00:24:19] Abhinandan: Do you want to be a citizen? Then we'll figure out what it needs, 'cause there is no prescribed procedure. [00:24:23] Abhinandan: Yeah. [00:24:23] Abhinandan: You know, Aadhaar is not enough, this is not enough, passport, and now they've gone 360 degrees. [00:24:29] Anand: No, [00:24:30] I, uh, my understanding is that Indian, like, as a concept, Indian citizenship is, uh, not documentary, not document-based.[00:24:38] Anand: It's a combination of a lot of circumstances. And the Indian Citizenship Act 1955, if you read, so, uh, it is a very complex act, and, uh, it, uh, does not depend on a single document. [00:24:53] Insert 2: Mm. [00:24:53] Anand: And, uh, passport even, uh, uh, just to clarify, the Passport Act [00:25:00] 1967 Section 20 says that passport in pub- conditions of public interest, it can be s- issued to non-citizens also.[00:25:10] Song : Hmm. Hmm. [00:25:11] Anand: It clearly says that, that so citizenship is not, uh, an ex- um, like, uh, exclusive requirement for having a passport. Uh, n- that's the law. There, in 2003, uh, there was CA, a different [00:25:30] CA, which, uh, uh, batted for having a, mm, citizenship card. And for that, a, a, a very integrated card, which would be this, uh, single document for, uh, identifying someone as citizen.[00:25:47] Anand: And for... But for that, you need NRC And NRC is a-again a very problematic, uh, concept in political terms. So I think, uh, for a [00:26:00] single document identification of someone as citizen, uh, that concept of a, a NRIC on... uh, for which you need NRC, that has, uh, I think, uh, got caught in political c-crossfire. [00:26:16] Samrat X: Sorry, but, uh, sor- sorry to interrupt.[00:26:18] Samrat X: But, uh, you know, the, the thing is that the passport, as is clarified, is, is issued only to citizens, which is the latest clarification from the, uh- Yeah ... Ministry of External Affairs. [00:26:30] Travel documents are issued also to refugees and others. Mm. For example- To non-citizens also ... you know, non-citizens. Yeah, [00:26:36] Abhinandan: but that's a travel [00:26:36] Samrat X: do-document.[00:26:37] Samrat X: But, but the, the- [00:26:38] Abhinandan: Specifically [00:26:38] Samrat X: for [00:26:38] Abhinandan: a purpose ... [00:26:39] Samrat X: the blue passport that we carry- [00:26:41] Abhinandan: Mm ... [00:26:41] Samrat X: is different from that. That is a separate document altogether, and there is a distinction between passport and travel document. Now, travel document is not the... not necessarily the same thing as a passport. Uh, a passport is also a travel document, but, uh, they're not exactly the same [00:27:00] thing.[00:27:00] Anand: Yeah, so, uh, yeah, I, I'm coming to that. So Venn diagram, this is a set, this is a subset of that, so i-it is... So, uh, uh, like Article, uh, sorry, Section 20 of Passport Act, you are saying that travel document is the larger set, citizenship is a, uh, uh... So what I am saying is that, uh, Citizenship Act 1955 gave a lot of discretionary power to the government for interpretation of rules.[00:27:28] Anand: So earlier, you, [00:27:30] you've seen, uh, like Foreign Secretary Niru-Nirupama Subramanian who, uh, earlier so, uh, who is not on the same page with the current government on a lot of issues, but she clarified what was the External Affairs Ministry's statement. And now the government using that, those similar discretionary powers because it, I think its assessment was that it would open a can of worms, has c- applied discretionary power to interpret the same laws in a different way.[00:27:58] Abhinandan: Within two weeks. [00:27:59] Anand: Yes. [00:28:00] [00:28:00] Abhinandan: Which is what I'm saying, so it is egg on the face. And also I have seen the document you're talking about because some of the people I used to play football with who's now refugee status has been canceled and they've gone back to Afghanistan. Uh, they had that document that you're talking about.[00:28:13] Abhinandan: Mm. It was very different from the passport that I have. It did not at any suggest that they're Indians. Mm. It was very clear that they are refugees here and they have documents. It is [00:28:21] Anand: clearly mentioned that they are non-citizens. [00:28:23] Abhinandan: Yes, correct. It can be- So, yeah ... issued. So, so it's not a passport. But- What this, I think, [00:28:30] demonstrates and what you said about it is vague.[00:28:33] Abhinandan: That is not unique to this act. [00:28:36] Song : Mm. [00:28:37] Abhinandan: Let's talk about FDA and news media. [00:28:40] Song : Mm. [00:28:41] Abhinandan: They have not even defined news. [00:28:42] Song : Mm. [00:28:43] Abhinandan: I was a part of a meeting where we've asked that suppose I'm reporting cricket scores, is it news? Mm. We'll get back to you. The Mr. Puj Girls press conference was seven years ago. Till date, and many laws have been made [00:29:00] on the basis of that, but what is news is still not clear.[00:29:03] Song : Yeah [00:29:04] Abhinandan: Someone can say what I'm doing is not news, I'm just telling you what's happening. Radio, let's talk about FM radio. You are not supposed to talk about news. So many people have been sent notices, you have spoken about news and current affairs. Hmm. When the Jan Lokpal movement was around, FM channels- Hmm[00:29:21] Abhinandan: all radio jockeys had a take on it. [00:29:23] Anand: Yeah. [00:29:24] Abhinandan: Today, will one of them say even one thing that is slightly political? No. The discretionary power we're talking about, that is [00:29:30] the brilliance of Indian bureaucracy, no? Yeah. There is no law in India that is black and white. Hmm. None. Even look at the Supreme Court hearings.[00:29:40] Rinchen: Yeah. [00:29:41] Abhinandan: I mean, sometimes it looks like a khap panchayat. Anyone is peddling what the hell they want- ... based on what they're feeling. [00:29:46] Samrat X: The, the discretionary power starts from, from the lowest clerk and the lowest, you know, official in the bureaucracy, and that is why you have corruption. [00:29:55] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:29:56] Samrat X: Because everybody has total discretionary power.[00:29:58] Samrat X: They can make up the law on the spot [00:30:00] for themselves, you know, to interpret it in what- whatever way they want. And [00:30:03] Abhinandan: look [00:30:03] Samrat X: at RTI, yaar Which is why, which is why we, we have to pay bribes. What is exempt and what is not exempt. Every, every person is extorted to... You know, because "" that- मतलब if you don't please the person on the other side of the table, then they can screw you over.[00:30:16] Samrat X: So that is the- [00:30:18] Anand: So- ... the, you know, side [00:30:18] Samrat X: effect of [00:30:19] Anand: discretionary power. Yes, clerk level. But, uh, conceptually it is called delegated legislation, so even when Parliament passes any law, it's act. But its final, [00:30:30] uh, details are, uh, cho- uh, means carved out through rules, and rule framing is a bureaucratic exercise- Hmm[00:30:37] Anand: that the executive does. So- [00:30:39] Abhinandan: Which is that whenever any PIL has to be filed, all lawyer all say, "Let the rules come, then we'll see." Hmm. But which is why I say it is a very uniquely Indian thing, and at the risk of sounding repetitive like all uncles are- ... it is exemplified by road signs. Road signs in India are delightfully- Yeah[00:30:54] Abhinandan: you know, vague. Like for, especially when I used to do Highway On a Plate and we used to go to entire Ladakh [00:31:00] and all. Yeah. There were... You know, of course, those really seedy ones, "Be gentle on my curves" type. That, that was of course the worst. But there was, you know, "Please pay attention to traffic while driving."[00:31:09] Abhinandan: What the fuck do you think I'm paying attention to while driving, you know? Like, i- i- in like, that is one thing I find fascinating about America, it's very specific. Stay two meters from here. Stay behind yellow line. Do this. Stay f- one inch from 20 angles. It is so specific. Whereas here, be careful. [00:31:27] Samrat X: So to, to, you know, [00:31:30] to bring it back to citizenship thing, my own experience.[00:31:33] Samrat X: Hmm. Now, the passport, uh, you know, rules basically say that you have to show two documents, one to prove your identity, one to prove your address. Hmm. And, uh, so you're supposed to have to, when you go for this police verification, which I've subsequently successfully gone through, thankfully- Hmm ... and I've got my passport back.[00:31:52] Samrat X: But the thing is that when I went there, I wasn't asked for two documents. I was asked for my birth certificate, my [00:32:00] passport copy of course, Aadhaar, voter ID- Electricity bill, my father's passport copy, my mother's passport copy. I might be forgetting if I also gave something more. And[00:32:16] Samrat X: thankfully I had all of them. [00:32:17] Abhinandan: Yeah, [00:32:18] Abhinandan: and if you don't, let's see what happens. [00:32:20] Abhinandan: Yeah. So you see the beauty, the beauty of Indian rule making. So next time you come wholeheartedly supporting one statement by a bureaucrat, [00:32:30] I would request you wait for two, three weeks in case they go back, then, you know, [00:32:34]  Book club: maybe 18 months, two years they come back with a different opinion again.[00:32:35]  Book club: But the other announcement I have is the following Hello, I'm trashing this Hafta to say that this Sunday we had [00:32:37] Abhinandan: our very first meeting [00:32:38]  Book club: for the News Laundry and the News Minute Book Club, which was very, very fun and people had a lot of interesting opinions about who Lata should have married. Here's a glimpse of the event.[00:32:47] Abhinandan: Welcome to the News Laundry and the News Minute Book Club.[00:33:00] [00:33:08]  Book club: A big thank you to all of our subscribers who joined us, who shared their opinions with us, who gave us their time and chose to spend their Sunday evening with us. If you'd like to be one of those people, you can register for the book club at bookclub@newslaundry.com and get all of your updates in one place[00:33:30] [00:33:31] Abhinandan: So I would like to thank all of you who made it successful. Thank all of you who made it really good fun. I enjoyed it. Uh, so we are going to hopefully have our second book club meeting in Bangalore. Uh, do mail us at bookclub@newsrunny.com. I repeat, bookclub@newsrunny.com. We wanna have our next meeting in Bangalore.[00:33:58] Abhinandan: Which are other cities that we should have them [00:34:00] in? Check out our book club page. Uh, but thank you so much for making it successful Right. Now coming to Manipur, uh, Samrat, there was an attack on the CRPF camp. We see little, you know, bits and pieces of news coming out of some skirmish, guns being given back, some other violence happening How normal is normal there?[00:34:27] Abhinandan: And we don't see any coverage of it now [00:34:30] because the scale of violence that made headlines, I mean, it had to be that much, whereas an overflowing tunnel makes headlines if it's in Delhi. What is the situation now, and what sparked this attack on the CRPF camp? [00:34:44] Samrat X: Okay. So I, I have to clarify that I am not on the ground.[00:34:49] Samrat X: I haven't been on the- You have been in Manipur, yes ... I haven't been on the ground- [00:34:51] Abhinandan: Mm ... [00:34:52] Samrat X: and, uh, for, for a long time. [00:34:54] Abhinandan: Sure. [00:34:54] Samrat X: And, um, so, uh, as far as, you know, the, the latest ground [00:35:00] situation is concerned, I am not very clear. [00:35:02] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:35:03] Samrat X: I have spoken to some people, but I'm not very sure about the absolute ground situation.[00:35:07] Samrat X: Sure. But, uh, I do have some background, uh, you know, in terms of- And you're in one sense [00:35:13] Abhinandan: a scholar of the [00:35:13] Samrat X: area ... I have, I have written about the area and, uh, more broadly the Northeast, not specifically Manipur. Mm. Um, so there are a lot of things happening in that broader area which are all sort of related to one another.[00:35:26] Samrat X: And, um, all of it is getting very [00:35:30] complicated. [00:35:30] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. [00:35:30] Samrat X: And, um, so basically the conflict in Manipur, as everyone knows, is a primarily a conflict between three communities, the Naga, Kuki, and Meitei. And initially it was just the Kukis and Meiteis, and now the Nagas are also involved. The complication is that you also have, uh, for example, uh, an unresolved situation in the Naga, uh, conflict within- with the Indian state.[00:35:56] Abhinandan: Yeah. [00:35:56] Samrat X: And so you've had a ceasefire, uh, with the [00:36:00] NSCN-IM and a framework agreement which was signed in 2015. And, um, you ... So you've got that, but you don't have anything within the framework yet. [00:36:10] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:36:11] Samrat X: And there is some restlessness which has been going on and, uh, now there is a split- What was the [00:36:17] Abhinandan: demand that they took up arms on?[00:36:20] Abhinandan: An autonomous body that determines- [00:36:22] Samrat X: So everybody has different demands. [00:36:24] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:36:24] Samrat X: And so the ... You know, and there are so many factions- Hmm ... and factions of factions that it's [00:36:30] just an alphabet soup at the end of it. Hmm. I mean, there are Kuki organizations, but there are multiple Kuki organizations, and several of them are armed militant groups which are in, uh, the so-called, uh, you know, suspension of operations, SO.[00:36:44] Samrat X: So that's one of those, uh- [00:36:46] Abhinandan: Vague terms ... [00:36:47] Samrat X: vague terms. And, uh, then you've got the Naga militant groups, and then you have the Meitei groups, and then there are overground groups and underground groups and political parties, and then there are state agencies. So [00:37:00] all kinds of things are involved, and, uh, it's just a very complicated situation.[00:37:06] Samrat X: Now there is a split apparently of some kind in the NSCN-IM- [00:37:10] Abhinandan: Mm ... [00:37:10] Samrat X: the group which has a, uh, a ceasefire, the main group which has a ceasefire agreement with the Indian state. [00:37:16] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:37:17] Samrat X: Um, and, uh- There's an eastern flank which is basically a part of it which is broken off, which is sort of g- going back to fighting, but they're basically on the Burmese side.[00:37:29] Abhinandan: And they're responsible for [00:37:30] this attack? [00:37:30] Samrat X: No. So, so, uh, maybe they are. I don't think- No one's taken responsibility ... I, I, I don't think, uh, anybody can say for sure who's responsible. Hmm. You know, people are getting killed and, and, uh, you know, in communal, uh, tensions between the parties. [00:37:44] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:37:44] Samrat X: But the arrests are being disputed because people think that the wrong people from the wrong community have been arrested.[00:37:51] Samrat X: And so what is going on, actually, I don't think anybody will risk saying, you know- With certainty ... because with, with any certainty. Even, even the [00:38:00] people who are right there on the spot, maybe even the officials who are making the arrests themselves- Hmm ... would probably harbor some doubts about what exactly is going on.[00:38:08] Abhinandan: And what triggered the last huge large-scale conflict between the Meitei and Kukis was basically a question of defining what would impact certain reservations. [00:38:21] Rinchen: Schedule tribe. [00:38:22] Abhinandan: And that would determine certain seats- Yeah ... and that is what led to that immediate outburst. [00:38:26] Rinchen: Yeah. [00:38:27] Abhinandan: But that was not all there is to it.[00:38:28] Abhinandan: Yeah. There is way more [00:38:30] complexity. Yeah, I mean- That may have been a specific trigger. Yeah. [00:38:31] Samrat X: So the, I mean, the Nagas are as tribal as the Kukis, but the Nagas did not have any problems with the, uh, with the Meiteis. I mean, the fighting was between the Meiteis and the Kukis. Hmm. Why was the Nagas, who are also tribal, also Christian, also inhabiting the hills, why did they not get involved until now?[00:38:48] Samrat X: And why are now, why are they involved- They're getting involved ... now against the Kukis? [00:38:52] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:38:53] Samrat X: They're not-- I mean, you can't say that it's a, it's a hill valley thing because the Nagas live in the hills. It's not a tribal, non-tribal thing [00:39:00] because the Nagas are tribals also. It's not a Christian- Hmm ... Hindu thing because the Nagas are as H- as Christian- Christian[00:39:06] Samrat X: as the Kukis. Hmm. It's none of those things. It's, it's a, you know, you can say it may be about land, uh, which to some extent it is, but probably that's not the only thing. [00:39:17] Rinchen: Hmm. [00:39:18] Abhinandan: Rinshin, what do you-- what's your take on this? [00:39:20] Rinchen: I think ultimately, so this is-- Manipur is a state that has been in a state of perpetual civil war for like three years now.[00:39:29] Rinchen: Mm-hmm. I [00:39:30] mean, and there's a really fantastic, uh, report in the Reporters Collective, uh, that came out I think the end of June. It's called Peace at Gunpoint. Um, well, I'll give the recommendations later for the authors and stuff. But basically, there, there's a very interesting sort of quote in that where basically now as a result of this conflict, cleaving the state into communally controlled impenetrable territories.[00:39:55] Rinchen: Now you literally, there are, for example, in the valley areas, uh, for example, [00:40:00] Meitei controlled areas where Kukis can't go. There are parts of the hills where Meiteis can't go, and there are parts of within the hills itself where Kukis and Nagas can't go. So now, I mean, this is a serious failure of internal security by the Modi government.[00:40:17] Rinchen: I mean, that first and foremost needs to be made to make this absolutely clear, right? And secondly, on the bit about-- and, and one of the fallouts of their failures is the fact that, and one of the sort of-- not [00:40:30] fallout, one of the sort of, um, you know, that they've com-complete failure to mediate honestly and transparently in this entire conflict.[00:40:38] Rinchen: Now, one example, so, uh, Samrat had given the example of the framework agreement signed in 2015 by the NSAM and the government of India. But there's also, uh, there's a demand by the Kuki-Zo groups. Uh, this is-- in 20-- November 2025, they had, uh, pushed a proposal, a uni- a proposal for union territory status along the lines of Puducherry, Puducherry model.[00:40:59] Rinchen: And in [00:41:00] November 2025, and months later, the center has neither accept-- neither rejected nor accepted it. I mean, they've stayed completely silent in public while reinstalling a coalition government which includes both a Meitei chief minister, a Kuki, and Naga deputy chief, chief minister. I mean, it's just- [00:41:20] Song : Hmm[00:41:21] Rinchen: this is a complete failure of, you know, political mediation and failure of internal security, and it's quite like, yeah. [00:41:28] Samrat X: So, uh, the, the, [00:41:30] the suffering of people- 100% ... because, because, because basically there's all these blockades. [00:41:34] Rinchen: Yeah. [00:41:35] Samrat X: So they keep blocking the highways and, and it's blockades by communities, and those blockades are I am told blocking even the movement of, for example, medicines and- Mm[00:41:45] Samrat X: infant formula. [00:41:46] Abhinandan: Yeah. [00:41:47] Samrat X: And so, so it is again a situation which we've heard of in places like Gaza. [00:41:52] Abhinandan: Yeah. [00:41:53] Samrat X: You know? And [00:41:53] Abhinandan: And it's happening so close to home. [00:41:55] Samrat X: And, uh, so, uh, you know, people are not getting medicines, they're not [00:42:00] getting food, fuel. Uh, prices are exorbitant. Even infant formula is not getting through, and it's just, you know, a terrible situation.[00:42:10] Samrat X: And, um, um, I don't think, uh, the political aspiration of different groups is different, and the state seems to wish that things would just go back to the way it was one day before the trouble started. Uh, but, uh, I don't know if that's possible anymore. [00:42:27] Rinchen: I, I mean, just to highlight the [00:42:30] bizarreness of this whole situation, right?[00:42:32] Rinchen: That, so, uh, very, I think recently there was the mutilation and killing of six, uh, Naga people, uh, allegedly by Kuki, uh, uh, militant groups. And the deputy, uh, the, the BJP government's Naga deputy chief, uh, deputy, uh, minister, Losii Diko, I think he blamed the, uh, Kuki National Front for this, uh, uh, uh, for this, uh, this thing, for, for the abdu- for the abduction, [00:43:00] mutilation, and killing of these six people.[00:43:02] Rinchen: And the Kuki deputy chief minister, she is the wife of the, uh, Kuki National Front- [00:43:09] Song : Yeah, [00:43:09] Rinchen: yeah, yeah ... uh, president's, uh, wife. [00:43:12] Song : Yeah. [00:43:12] Rinchen: And so I mean, this is ... And none of this mediation is happening. None of ... I mean, you ... And in th- they- they're just concerned forming a government, uh, with all these disparate interests and this sort of[00:43:25] Rinchen: I mean, it's just bizarre how- So, I mean- ... how, how this is happening ... [00:43:28] Abhinandan: on, on this, the complexity [00:43:30] that, uh, you know, Samrat spoke about, my question is specific to the coverage of that, Anand, but if you wanna weigh in on any of the other aspects, feel free. While I completely agree that News Laundry did an on-ground coverage where our reporter was there for 21 days, thank you for those of you who contributed to that and else in our project.[00:43:46] Abhinandan: In fact, many legacy media journalists would ask our journalists, "How come you guys were so small can send someone there for 21 days, whereas our several hundred strong news organizations [00:44:00] cannot send someone in for five, it's because you guys contributed to it. But while I understand there is a lack of reporting, I also find many people, some people, not many, are reluctant to report on that.[00:44:13] Abhinandan: A, because the complexity is so much, it will lead to your report being, you know, pulled apart because it doesn't have X, Y, Z, and it is very politicized. It is very polarizing. Like for example, uh, [00:44:30] so many people I know who really know the space well, Nitin Sethi from the Reporters Collective really knows that space well.[00:44:34] Abhinandan: I mean, that is his adopted home in one sense. Mm. But yet there are so many, um, uh, you know, uh, uh, accusations that everyone has towards the others that you are talking on such and such tribe's behalf. Yeah. You're talking on so-and-so's behalf. That I think many people stay away from reporting on this because they don't want to get into that.[00:44:54] Abhinandan: Do you think that is one of the reasons also that contributes, uh, to the, you know, ignoring this [00:45:00] area, uh, by journalists because of this super complexity? [00:45:05] Anand: Ye- yes, no means, uh, there's two sidism, uh, so, uh, uh, or, or multisidism of it that, uh, that is one. Mm. But I think the print, uh, um, newspapers have reported.[00:45:19] Anand: Mm. The television has not. Mm. So television anyway does not take up these stories. But, uh, uh, in The Hindu, in Express, even in Times of [00:45:30] India, we see reports, uh, and sometimes, uh, the long, um, means long form pieces have also come up. Mm. But yes, in tel- uh, in television there has been just, uh, when there's something major happens as this raid, uh, or then only it makes some headlines.[00:45:50] Anand: That also not much. So, uh, yes, so that is one aspect, uh, um, whether the complexity drives them off, [00:46:00] uh, um, but they can always find, uh, local ex- mm, mm, reporters who are more adept with the ground situation. [00:46:08] Abhinandan: But from what I understood, the local reporters also, those who are from one community couldn't go that side, those guys couldn't come this side.[00:46:13] Abhinandan: Yeah. So many of them we spoke to, which is why actually before we sent Shiv- [00:46:17] Insert 2: Mm ... [00:46:18] Abhinandan: we said, "Let's try to tie up with someone there." [00:46:20] Insert 2: Mm. [00:46:20] Abhinandan: So there are two sides to this, right? One is helicoptering down, which is a valid criticism, but sometimes a helicoptering down reporter does a better job- Mm ... than someone who is there.[00:46:29] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:46:30] In some cases. It's very context specific. Mm. The best case is an external reporter with an internal reporter, that is a fantastic team. [00:46:37] Abhinandan: Mm. '[00:46:38] Abhinandan: Cause you have that external point of view and you have the on-ground intelligence. About three reporters said, "Look, I cannot report for you because I have to live here."[00:46:46] Abhinandan: Yeah. "I cannot go that side, they cannot come this." So, so we had to send someone from here. Same thing in Kashmir. A local Kashmir reporter cannot report- Yeah ... you know, free and fearlessly. We have to send someone from here. So Samrat, you have [00:47:00] spent much of your, not in the ca- case of just this Manipur, but generally, that is an area of expertise of yours.[00:47:05] Abhinandan: To what extent is complexity the roadblock from really robust reportage of the Northeast? [00:47:16] Samrat X: Well, um, see, uh, I would say that, uh, you know, the reportage on the Northeast has actually probably increased and improved over time. [00:47:24] Song : Mm. [00:47:24] Samrat X: Um, I remember, uh, an episode 25, [00:47:30] 26 years ago. Uh, I was working for India Today Magazine at the time in Delhi, and a story from the Northeast was mentioned in a meeting, and received a response saying there are interesting stories in Papua New Guinea also.[00:47:44] Samrat X: Oh, [00:47:44] Song : wow. [00:47:45] Samrat X: And, uh, so I think that from there we have come a long way. [00:47:48] Song : Mm. [00:47:48] Samrat X: But, uh, you know, there was a time when I used to feel very strongly about it when, when it came to be my turn to bring out editions of newspapers, which I did in, uh, Delhi, Bombay, Bangalore, [00:48:00] Chandigarh, various cities. Um, I realized that I have to sort of do what I'm supposed to do, do the job.[00:48:07] Samrat X: And doing the job meant that I had to think about my readers in that-- for that edition. [00:48:12] Song : Mm. [00:48:12] Samrat X: And, uh, so you know, I, I mean, obviously I couldn't put a Northeast story on page one because it just wouldn't have that cachet over here. Mm-hmm. And, uh, so I think some of it is also those things, even, you know, the, the economics of it also, the, you know, the problem of, for example, do we cover [00:48:30] the slum-- uh, a, a rape in the slum or- Mm[00:48:32] Samrat X: or is it only if it's somebody, you know, people like us? [00:48:35] Abhinandan: Correct. [00:48:35] Samrat X: So those things also come into it and, and, uh, the market decides what's important and what's less important. Something happening in Bombay, Bangalore, Delhi becomes important. [00:48:46] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:48:47] Samrat X: Something happening a bit further away is less important. And, um, so all of that is there.[00:48:53] Samrat X: The complexity is something which kicks in only when you finally have people on the [00:48:59] Abhinandan: ground trying to do [00:48:59] Samrat X: the [00:49:00] journalism. So that is step two, three. And that's further down the- We are, we are [00:49:01] Abhinandan: still fur- [00:49:02] Samrat X: Yeah ... far away from that step. Yeah, yeah. [00:49:03] Abhinandan: But one thing I've asked several times on Hafta, for all those people who are saying stop looking towards the government to create jobs, you create jobs, become entrepreneurs.[00:49:14] Abhinandan: I can tell you it's not easy. [00:49:15] Insert 2: Mm. [00:49:16] Abhinandan: In Delhi also. But I have always asked, and I have not gotten an answer. In fact, I asked someone from the Ministry of Commerce also, a bureaucrat. "Sir, how does one file your GST if your internet is down for [00:49:30] weeks?" Mm. Now it's GST, earlier it was service tax and the Yamuna cess or whatever, 2%, 10 plus 2%.[00:49:38] Abhinandan: And I remember I used to keep asking, "How does a Kashmiri entrepreneur work?" 'Cause if you don't file, then you will get notice on notice and they will block your [00:49:47] Abhinandan: account. [00:49:47] Song : Mm. [00:49:48] Abhinandan: How do they file that? How are local shopkeepers, businessmen, how are they filing their taxes? I want to know. I have not got any email, and I'm sure many bureaucrats also subscribers.[00:50:00] [00:50:00] Abhinandan: Tell me, is there a pr- provision in place? I genuinely want to know that if I want to set up an enterprise in Kashmir or the Northeast and the internet is down for 20 days of the month, how do I operate? Is it possible? Is there a way to physically do it? [00:50:16] Samrat X: Yeah. [00:50:18] Abhinandan: Well, such is the world we live in. Uh, now before we let, uh- [00:50:23] Samrat X: I, [00:50:23] Abhinandan: I- Uh, go on[00:50:24] Abhinandan: I, [00:50:24] Samrat X: I used to believe that the only thing that, the only interaction with the government which is easy is, [00:50:30] is paying taxes because for, in my case, as a salaried person, it's deducted at source. [00:50:34] Abhinandan: Oh, yeah. And- If it's deducted at source, then you are sorted. But if you have to pay, then it's not that easy. [00:50:39] Samrat X: Oh. I thought Arey,[00:50:45] Abhinandan: sir, sometimes, sometimes though server ... "... server will [00:50:47] Samrat X: try after one hour." "Let's hope the [00:50:48] Abhinandan: server works." In[00:50:58] Abhinandan: fact, [00:51:00] just so you know, Indian websites made it to The Economist podcast saying that India is supplying tech knowledge to the world, but the worst websites are Indian government websites, and they gave the example of how to apply for a visa. [00:51:18] Abhinandan: And very interesting what the, their expert said. He says it demonstrates the [00:51:23] Abhinandan: mindset of how a website is something that is a new technology.[00:51:28] Abhinandan: It's tech. You click something, it goes [00:51:30] somewhere. So you should approach it from the point of view of what do we want? We want someone to apply for a visa. Now, what is the way to navigate it most efficiently? It appears how Indian bureaucracy works is, what is the way to apply for the visa right now? Mm.[00:51:44] Abhinandan: This is the paperwork. Now, how do we replicate this paperwork on the website? [00:51:47] Song : Yeah. [00:51:48] Abhinandan: That fundamentally changes how you design the website. [00:51:50] Song : Yes. [00:51:51] Abhinandan: I thought that's a very interesting insight But, uh, yes, uh, you know, we're gonna be discussing with our [00:52:00] next guest, Samrat, but I also wanted your view on it because I know you were an active journalist during that movement.[00:52:06] Abhinandan: The protest of, uh, Mr. Wangchuk, which now is getting a lot of support. Hartosh was on the podcast last week, and he had said, which some people have actually agreed and some people disagreed, although on Punjab- ... on Punjab audiences. We will get to those emails later. Uh, he says that what is a weakness here is it has no ideological [00:52:30] moorings.[00:52:30] Abhinandan: I mean, it is... They say we want Harminder Pradhan's... Now, it's called a Kokro Janta Party, but it's not a party. I mean, that even they have clarified. Yeah. We, this is... They're an agenda. This is our agenda, and it is a- Single ... single point agenda. Mm-hmm. Just like Jan Lokpal's agenda was the Jan Lokpal, passage of that bill.[00:52:46] Abhinandan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. [00:52:46] Abhinandan: And then everything else kind of evolved with time. And like it or not, it became one of the most successful political parties in the shortest time ever- [00:52:55] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm ... [00:52:55] Abhinandan: in the history of India. To become a national party status within less than a [00:53:00] decade of your getting formed is unheard of. Mm-hmm. Is it-- I mean, is the expectation a little unrealistic and, you know, it's like poking holes that does it have to have ideological moorings?[00:53:16] Abhinandan: Is that a big weakness? Is it a problem if they want opposition parties to join? What makes a protest successful? And is that all that we are looking at this from as [00:53:30] observers? Or you think many people, and is it inevitable, are looking at it as a political grouping which has to have an ideology? [00:53:40] Samrat X: I think everybody's viewing it as, as political, and its name also suggests a, you know, a sort of a party- [00:53:48] Abhinandan: Hmm[00:53:48] Samrat X: which it is [00:53:49] Abhinandan: not. Yeah, exactly. [00:53:49] Samrat X: I [00:53:49] Abhinandan: think that [00:53:50] Samrat X: is a [00:53:50] Abhinandan: strategic blunder maybe. Yeah. [00:53:51] Samrat X: And, and, um, besides nowadays, no matter what you say, any kind of even the mildest criticism of the government is viewed in very [00:54:00] strongly political terms. [00:54:01] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. [00:54:01] Samrat X: Um, so I guess it is being viewed as political. And, um, in terms of, uh, you know, what sort of how people respond to it, now it, it looks like, uh, uh, there are other issues which seem to be more top of the mind for more people.[00:54:19] Samrat X: The lives of probably more people are being affected at this very moment by the SIR, for example. And those concerns are also clashing perhaps with the clash, with the single [00:54:30] point agenda that this grouping is trying to, uh, you know- [00:54:33] Abhinandan: On the education ... [00:54:34] Samrat X: to, [00:54:35] Abhinandan: to push. Dharmendra Pradhan resign and basically accountability for that.[00:54:37] Samrat X: So, so, so that's probably receded from the front of the mind for a lot of people because there are these other more immediate things which seem to be more, more, uh, sort of, you know, worrying actually for more people. [00:54:50] Song : Hmm. [00:54:50] Samrat X: And, uh, peop- so, so you have a situation where, uh, for example, the Constitutional Conduct Group, which is a group of retired, uh, judges, [00:55:00] bureaucrats, et cetera, ambassadors, former ambassadors and so on, um, held a gathering in Delhi recently where they spoke about the question of citizenship and SIR and all of that, and former chief election commissioners were also there.[00:55:13] Samrat X: I think that, that the, uh, the, the sense seems to be that maybe the front of the mind is occupied by that, and this has already receded to the back of the mind. [00:55:26] Abhinandan: Anand, what do you make of it? Do you think it is an [00:55:30] ideological position which is larger and more encompassing? First of all, maybe we should even-- Different people will define what is ideology versus- Yeah[00:55:41] Abhinandan: what is a value. [00:55:42] Rinchen: Yeah. [00:55:42] Abhinandan: You know, like, someone had mentioned that anti-corruption is an ideology. I personally don't think so. [00:55:47] Rinchen: No. [00:55:47] Abhinandan: That is a value. That's a value. An ideology is a lot broader. Yeah. It has a-- Ideology has to have a historical context. It has a cultural context. It- [00:55:54] Rinchen: I mean, who's for corruption?[00:55:55] Abhinandan: Yeah. So, you know, so I don't think that's an ideology. But do you think that [00:56:00] is a lack of, you know, ignorantly misinterpreting this movement by journalists who should know better? Or is it inevitable that people will look at you that what is your overarching ideology rather than just your one demand, and that does a disservice to the movement?[00:56:19] Anand: I think it's an a-agenda based agitation. So it's, uh, like a, mm, agenda for lowering fee. [00:56:29] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:56:29] Anand: For [00:56:30] extending some date. So-- And its origin is also not related to it. It's, uh, just one, you may say, misinterpreted remark- Something got- ... by CJI. [00:56:41] Samrat X: Mm. [00:56:41] Anand: So that, uh, uh, he meant that, uh, there are, uh, l- fra-fake lawyers who are like cockroaches.[00:56:50] Anand: Mm. So it wa-it was misinterpreted for its, uh, metaphorical value. And then from CJI's remarks, you go to, uh, [00:57:00] uh, the education minister's resignation, so there you take a political turn because, uh... But it's still, uh, an agenda based like, uh, uh, say in university, lower the fee, resign this, so- Very limited ... it's limited in its scope.[00:57:18] Anand: It's- So, um, there is this, um, degree of ad hocism to it. [00:57:23] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:57:24] Anand: Is, uh, once that, uh, agenda is met, then-- But [00:57:30] lot of movements are like that. Telan-Telangana Rashtra Samiti, the Telangana State was formed, its job was done. [00:57:38] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:57:39] Anand: Wind it up. [00:57:39] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:57:40] Anand: But it will not. Mm-hmm. Be-because it, it, it, it, uh, I think, uh, spawned into a larger political grouping.[00:57:48] Anand: So e-even single point agenda, um, political agitations can take a life of its own. [00:57:55] Abhinandan: So- And more than can, inevitably will [00:58:00] Rinzin, you've written a piece on this. Yeah. Uh, w- what do you make of-- And of course, you know, Mr. Wangchuk is from your home state, which is now a state now. Uh- [00:58:11] Rinchen: Very deadly. [00:58:11] Abhinandan: Yeah. But what do you make of his fast?[00:58:15] Abhinandan: How is it being viewed back home? Uh, I mean, are you in touch with your friends- Yeah ... and family there? [00:58:20] Rinchen: Yeah. [00:58:20] Abhinandan: Are they, you know-- Do they feel that he is being used by an agenda which is not theirs necessarily? Their agenda is more about their own state. [00:58:30] [00:58:30] Rinchen: Um, so, so, uh, there is definitely solidarity with Sonam Wangchuk.[00:58:35] Rinchen: A lot of Ladakhi students, um, on, on WhatsApp, on Instagram, on Facebook, have shown solidarity with Sonam Wangchuk and they, you know. Because he's a he- because especially post his, uh, earlier fast for sixth, uh, sixth schedule and statehood. I mean, he's, he's a, he's a hero back home. So there's obviously this thing.[00:58:54] Rinchen: But there is also-- And then there's also genuine empathy and concern with [00:59:00] the whole NEET paper leak and the students who suffered and they're suffering, and that Sonam Wangchuk is in, in a, in a way standing for them. Mm. So there is acknowledgement and there is also- ... solidarity. But there is also concern, uh, in terms of[00:59:15] Rinchen: Now, for example, Sonam Wangchuk, he, my, at least my initial understanding was that he decided to get on this hu- um, hunger strike, uh, in the CJP hunger, CJP protest, um, without really consulting the ... So he's part of the, uh, Le Ap- [00:59:30] Leh Apex Body, which is one of the organizations that is, uh, negotiating with the Ministry of Home Affairs.[00:59:35] Abhinandan: For full statehood. [00:59:36] Rinchen: Um, but, uh- And that, that, those talks have actually moved forward quite a bit- Wow ... in, uh, recent weeks. So, uh, my initial understanding was that, but then later on, I think there was a clarification from the Apex Body president, uh, Tsering Dorje Laa, who said that, "Yes, we had a discussion on this, and, you know, we agreed to[00:59:53] Rinchen: You know, because his thing was that if I go there and show solidarity, like they, they showed solidarity for [01:00:00] us when we were fighting for our rights- Mm ... and it's only right that we do that as well, which is also fair. But there is also a concern, I mean, if his health deteriorates further Um, and this is where my piece sort of-- It was a bit of, it was actually a bit of rage writing.[01:00:17] Rinchen: I was, I was angry at obviously, obviously at the government, but also at the CJP people as well. And it's not necessarily a case of whether they have ideological convictions or not, but it's the nature of the-- [01:00:30] It's, for me, just my anger towards them was tactical, um, in terms of every, you know, successful protest movement or not even now, every major protest movement, whether it is the Jan Lokpal agitation, whether it is Shaheen Bagh, whether it is- Farmers protest[01:00:50] Rinchen: farmers protest, whether it is the protest in Ladakh, um, all f- all of them had a specific structural systemic demand. [01:00:57] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:00:57] Rinchen: So Jan Lokpal, anti-corruption law. [01:01:00] Um- [01:01:00] Abhinandan: They had a bill written out. [01:01:01] Rinchen: Had the bill written out entirely. Now, whether we agree or not with that, that's another debate. And it was [01:01:05] Abhinandan: amended 12 times.[01:01:06] Rinchen: Yeah. Right. So farmers protests again, uh, repeal the three laws and they got it. Uh, for Ladakh, say schedule and statehood, right? So these are structural demands that survive a single minister's reshuffle. [01:01:22] Samrat X: Right. [01:01:22] Rinchen: Right. So that is number one. That you-- For me, that was the number one issue. That, and there this thing is about, um, [01:01:30] Pradhan's resignation and one crore compensation- [01:01:32] Song : Hmm[01:01:33] Rinchen: for the students who died- Yes ... by suicide, right? And for their families, right? So that is number one, right? And number two, uh, they have not organized a comparable base beyond the online sphere. Of course, it's only a month, it's a movement, what, it's been barely a month, two month. That's all right. And you can't generate or develop an organization or cadre base in this time frame.[01:01:54] Rinchen: But what they could have done is leaned on political parties and other organizations that do. [01:02:00] Hmm. So there was brief dalliances with farmers, uh, organization, labor organizations, uh, and of course, a left affiliate student organization, ISIS, some of whose members are also on hunger strike, which we should not forget.[01:02:12] Rinchen: Um, but then again, they didn't really lean on this stuff. And only when Sonam Wangchuk's health really, you know, when he was literally at death's door a couple- Hmm ... of days back, did they start reaching out to opposition and this whole narrative started, "Rahul Gandhi ""kyun nahi aaya?" Like, like why should he come?[01:02:28] Rinchen: Like, you know, I mean, I was just-- [01:02:30] It, it really bothers me that this is also the, uh- So- ... this is also the case. Uh, there's more, but yeah, please. [01:02:36] Abhinandan: So there, I mean, the, I mean, one can approach from two positions. One is two or three things I want to say because I saw, you know, some well-meaning people commenting on this.[01:02:44] Rinchen: Hmm. [01:02:46] Abhinandan: Not being a very enthusiastic faster myself. Uh, some people said, "Why don't Dipke and Saurav go on hunger strike?" A, it will not have the same impact. This question was asked to [01:03:00] Arvind and Manish also. It would not have the same impact back then. [01:03:02]  Book club: Hmm. [01:03:02] Abhinandan: Later, after the Jan Lokpal movement reached its zeniths, and then I think this is before the AAP was formed, Arvind had gone on hunger strike.[01:03:12] Abhinandan: It was around Holi, I think, in 2011 or '12. Uh, before you go on a hunger strike, just so you know that, you know, 'cause I think Dipke had said that we are not prepared for hunger strike. He has experience. [01:03:23] Rinchen: Experience. Hunger strike experience. [01:03:23] Abhinandan: So there is... But that is a thing. [01:03:25] Rinchen: Yeah. [01:03:26] Abhinandan: Um, Anna had trained his body to fast.[01:03:29] Abhinandan: Uh, [01:03:30] and while Arvind's hunger strike at that time may have seemed impromptu, uh, I know because it was discussed, he had consulted doctors. Uh, Anna had also trained him. This is how if... Like today I suddenly decide to go on hunger strike, I will not survive seven days. [01:03:44] Song : Hmm. [01:03:45] Abhinandan: If I have trained my body, I will survive 20.[01:03:48] Abhinandan: So there is a thing as training a body for a hunger strike. It is a thing. It's not a- Yeah ... something that is- ... ki there's experience. The reason Bapu could go on hunger strikes as regularly- Yeah ... there was a reason he could. [01:04:00] If some, you know, if one of our boxers or cricket players or football players decides to try it, he will not survive.[01:04:06] Abhinandan: Uh, his body will completely wind up. So that, that is a thing. Now, why should someone come, whether it's Rahul or... Everyone will see it with suspicion because of what happened with AAP. [01:04:19] Insert 2: Hmm. [01:04:19] Abhinandan: Jan Lokpal. You know, it came and suddenly became party. It ate up everybody else's vote share. Um, at, at different times in its life, the first people [01:04:30] to support the whole RTI movement, which is the precursor to Jan Lokpal movement, was the left.[01:04:34] Rinchen: Yeah. [01:04:35] Abhinandan: Then there was a lot of support from the Congress. Then during Jan Lokpal, people from the right supported. That was a rare time when people on the right, also communists, were supporting it at the same time. And then finally when we became a party, it ate everybody's vote. So that, that is gonna be there for everybody.[01:04:51] Abhinandan: So that, of course, is a valid concern. Purely tactical. I mean, forget the ethics, et cetera. But the [01:05:00] one thing is that Congress does not have the capacity to take down the BJP or to damage its credibility. This movement does You cannot say... You know, this is a bit like that Hera Pheri or whatever that film is, that you bought the lottery ticket.[01:05:17] Abhinandan: Before the lottery is even ..., we are deciding how we're gonna split the money. [01:05:21] Anand: Hmm. [01:05:21] Abhinandan: Lottery ... You haven't even bought the ticket yet. As the Congress to think that, "Oh, these guys may be a danger to us, and then how will we fight?" [01:05:30] Right now you are finished. You are at zero. [01:05:32] Rinchen: Yeah. [01:05:33] Abhinandan: Your best chance is use them as the arrowhead to pierce the armor.[01:05:37] Abhinandan: Once the armor's pierced, then deal with them in that way. I think that kind of political s- strategizing with the Congress is not... And that is why I think I've said this, I think Rahul is a very well-meaning person. I'm sure there are a lot of people, but their political acumen- There is a very good case [01:06:00] strategically, not on because they care about anybody's life or anything, to support this movement.[01:06:05] Insert 2: Hmm. [01:06:06] Abhinandan: And that I think is a ... And these guys will use it to swell the crowds unless you have-- Crowds have come now, no? [01:06:11] Samrat X: Yeah. [01:06:11] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:06:12] Samrat X: The, the-- I have seen people saying that, uh, Sonam Wangchuk, uh, he was pictured with Dharmendra Pradhan also- Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen him ... in some old photos and all. [01:06:19] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:06:20] Samrat X: That he used to be-[01:06:21] Samrat X: you know, cozy with the BJP, and so why should Rahul Gandhi go and meet him now? [01:06:25] Abhinandan: And that's just stupid. [01:06:25] Samrat X: And, uh, so my thing is that, you know, the BJP has taken, for [01:06:30] example, the whole Trinamool pretty much. And, uh, and they've taken the whole NCP, the whole Shiv Sena, the whole, you know, the half of the Congress.[01:06:38] Insert: Hmm. [01:06:38] Samrat X: They take anybody and everybody, no matter who said what or who did what. Yeah. And that's the idea. If you're going to construct a majority, and you're going to say that I won't take anybody who's ever voted for the BJP- Right ... or spoken or been pictured with the BJP, how will you ever-- You'll stay a minority for the rest of your lives.[01:06:54] Samrat X: Yeah, [01:06:54] Abhinandan: exactly. [01:06:55] Rinchen: And s- and solidarity is not conditional. Hmm. Solidarity is solidarity. And also, [01:07:00] and to the point, and so one of the sort of points of frustration for me with this movement was that this insistence on this not being a political platform. "Humko is platform ko non-political banana hai." They, they keep saying this all the time.[01:07:14] Rinchen: I mean, what do you mean? You're engaging in political action. By sitting there in protest at Jantar Mantar, you are engaging political action. Anyway, people are saying that you are like a front for AAP. So embrace it. Embrace it and bring, [01:07:30] and bring in other organization, other parties, and sort of, and include them in the, in, in your, in the leadership sort of this thing, you know?[01:07:37] Rinchen: So, uh, this is the whole thing. Again, this issue is-- This is what really bugs me about this, that you have created also, and finally on the strategic point, you, you have created no leverage with this government at all. Like, one thing we've learned in these 12 years with this government is that the only thing they respect is a show of strength.[01:07:58] Rinchen: This is the only thing they-- I mean, [01:08:00] empathy, woh toh door ki baat hai. But this is the only thing they respect. Farmers protest, they stood there for a year. [01:08:06] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:08:06] Rinchen: Danda khaye, you know, harassed by the cops, but they stayed. [01:08:11] Abhinandan: Yeah. [01:08:11] Rinchen: They stayed for a year. It was [01:08:12] Abhinandan: strength that [01:08:13] Rinchen: prevailed. Strength. And then finally the government was forced to come and negotiate with them, and they repealed those three laws.[01:08:18] Rinchen: Right. Right? So this is the thing, that they have played within the rules set by the government They have sat within the designated protest site, not [01:08:30] convenienced and inconvenienced anybody, not confronted the state. I mean, the, the reel of Dipke, uh, going, you know, uh, falling at the feet of that Delhi police guy to set up these- You think strategically that [01:08:39] Abhinandan: does not, even tactically that doesn't work [01:08:41] Rinchen: Even as a strategi- tactically, I f- just has, for just out of self-respect and dignity, I, I cringed at that.[01:08:48] Rinchen: Mm. I was like, "What are you doing?" [01:08:50] Abhinandan: So I think that is a lot to do with Dipke's in- you know, communication skills as a, as a leader. I think the whole keep it [01:09:00] non-political is they're trying to again replicate the whole Jan Lokpal. The whole Jan Lokpal [01:09:03] Rinchen: thing? [01:09:03] Abhinandan: Where the rule was no politician will come on stage.[01:09:06] Abhinandan: If you come, you stay there. [01:09:07] Rinchen: Mm. [01:09:07] Abhinandan: You know, Sitaram used to come. RTI movement, a lot of them used to come, but they used to stay off stage. [01:09:12] Rinchen: Mm. [01:09:12] Abhinandan: The idea was that no matter who you voted for- [01:09:14] Rinchen: Mm ... [01:09:15] Abhinandan: this impacts you. [01:09:16] Rinchen: Yeah. [01:09:17] Abhinandan: So come. Because the moment you make it party political, then people pick you based on the voter.[01:09:23] Abhinandan: So that... But how he communicates it, like you said, he just misses the nuance. I think he's a terrible communicator. [01:09:30] Uh, Anand, last word on this? [01:09:31] Anand: No, I think, uh, that, uh, someone was seen, uh, with, uh, the ruling party earlier and now he's agitating against him, that does not hold, uh, very majorly with, uh, the Indian voter's mind.[01:09:48] Anand: Uh, Vishwanath Pratap Singh was finance minister in Rajiv Gandhi government, uh, and, uh, he became, uh, his replacement as the prime minister- Right ... in the next [01:10:00] government. So within one, two years, that whole thing changed. Uh, but I think, uh, there are two things. That, uh, one is the safety valve theory, that, uh, what is, uh, this, uh, government's, uh, ease with this movement?[01:10:19] Anand: Mm-hmm. So it revives, uh, the safety valve theory of the creation of the Congress itself in 1885, that it was a plant of the British government to [01:10:30] measure the discontent of the people and to somehow accommodate it within the bodies that they have. So, uh, but at the same time, there is the lightning conductor theory, so with Cong- Congress also.[01:10:45] Anand: A different set of historians say that it was als- no, no, it was not safety valve, it was a lightning c- uh, rod. [01:10:53] Samrat X: Mm. [01:10:53] Anand: So, uh, both theories hold for, uh, you know, the very different timeframe for this also. So, [01:11:00] so, uh, the very fact that the ruling party has allowed it to, the agitation to, uh, have its way, uh- um, sows a seed of doubt in, uh, a lot of, uh, say, active political players.[01:11:21] Anand: Also, I think, uh, this government's reading of today's public sphere is different. It's, [01:11:30] uh, for the virality factor, for the congregation of crowd, whether it, uh, really means a very vigorous public sphere that could challenge it, this government has a different reading of it. And, uh, with this reading, I think, I am talking from the government side- Mm.[01:11:50] Anand: it's, it's, uh, uh, interpretation of this agitation is a bit different. It, uh, mm, I think it's, uh, um, reading is that [01:12:00] this is a part of, uh, a, a little theatrics of public sphere, which is not very ominous for us. [01:12:08] Abhinandan: Yeah, they don't see it as existential. Yes, that's right. But before we thank Samrat and say goodbye, Samrat, please give our viewers and listeners a recommendation that could enrich their lives.[01:12:20] Samrat X: So I just picked up a book which I have only started reading, and, uh, it's, it's called Reader Come Home, and, uh, by an [01:12:30] author named Marion Wolf, and it's basically talking about how, uh, reading affects the brain versus how digital devices affect the brain. And because after having written books myself, I now find it difficult to read a book.[01:12:44] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:12:44] Samrat X: So I'm curious to see how my brain has been affected by the smartphone. Uh, [01:12:49] Abhinandan: I see mine has, for sure. 100%. My eyes have been affected more than anything else. But thank you so much, Samrat. Always a pleasure to see you. Yes. Yeah. Thanks. We look forward to your next writing, book, whatever. Thank [01:13:00] you. Even if it's not journalism, strictly speaking.[01:13:02] Samrat X: Thank you. [01:13:03] Abhinandan: Okay. Bye bye. [01:13:04] Samrat X: Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. See you. Bye. [01:13:06] Abhinandan: And on cue, we have our next guest who's joining us, and we shall introduce her with this transition. Like that. With a transition, thanks to technology, while it makes us poorer readers, it makes transitions a lot more snappy. We have Poornima Joshi, who has joined us.[01:13:23] Abhinandan: Uh, Poornima is a senior journalist and resident editor at The Hindu Business Line. She has decades of experience covering national [01:13:30] politics, governance, and public policy. She has reported extensively on parliamentary elections and key political developments in India. And before we started rolling for cameras, we were just discussing, we've al- also shared one employer, India Today, ex- except Poornima was there for a decade after me.[01:13:48] Abhinandan: But yeah. Um, so Poornima, we'd-- you know, we were discussing in the context of this whole, uh, protest by the Cockroach Janata Party, [01:14:00] uh, and many comparisons being made to earlier movements. It's-- Last week we had Hartosh here, who had commented that its lack of any ideological moorings makes it a weak grouping.[01:14:14] Abhinandan: Mm. So we were exploring the question, does a protest have to have ideological moorings at all, or can it evolve? And the march to Parliament on Monday, we won't speculate. And again, I, I must put in perspective, one of the biggest flaws I thought of Tavleen's writing on the Jan [01:14:30] Lokpal Movement, every column of hers decided this is where the story stops.[01:14:35] Abhinandan: Oh, it's over. Oh, now they'll... [01:14:36] Song : Yeah. [01:14:37] Abhinandan: Everything that's being discussed here is, it can change dramatically. I personally think this movement has changed dramatically from 20 days ago. [01:14:45] Song : Mm-hmm. [01:14:45] Abhinandan: What you're saying, it had no structure. Nobody knew what the other was doing. There were not even tarpaulins. Now they have water management system.[01:14:54] Abhinandan: They have-- You know, things evolve. They kind of grow. So we don't know which way anything could go. Yeah. [01:15:00] But on-- let's start with the fundamental question. Do political protests have to have ideological moorings for them to be successful? [01:15:11] Abhinandan: Mostly yes, because, uh, I've seen Anna Hazare very closely. And Anna Hazare was a movement, uh, which had a massive, massive backing from the RSS.[01:15:22] Abhinandan: So [01:15:23] Abhinandan: on [01:15:23] Abhinandan: the- [01:15:23] Abhinandan: Did, did [01:15:23] Abhinandan: we [01:15:23] Abhinandan: meet back then? [01:15:24] Abhinandan: Uh, sorry? [01:15:25] Abhinandan: Did we meet back then? [01:15:26] Abhinandan: Uh, no, I don't think so. [01:15:28] Abhinandan: Okay. [01:15:28] Abhinandan: But, uh, [01:15:30] uh, they let the amorphous face remain. [01:15:33] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:15:34] Abhinandan: And on the face of it, Anna Hazare movement had no ideology except, uh, anti-corruption and bringing in the Lokpal, et cetera. Mm. But then it i- that in itself is a, you know, to my mind, is a slightly reactionary, uh, right-wing sort of a, a, a conceptualization.[01:15:55] Samrat X: Mm. [01:15:55] Abhinandan: And from behind the scenes, Anna Hazare was much more organized than, uh, [01:16:00] than the present protests. Mm. They had, if you remember, the Ramlila Maidan with the huge, massive, uh, you know, they had two, three, uh, uh, episodes of it. Mm. But finally what emerged was a, was a large, uh, gathering. They ha- they had these, uh, um, topis, they had slogans, they had food distribution, they had, uh- Mm-hmm.[01:16:24] Abhinandan: Water distribution ... uh, water distribution. Mattresses, the whole- They had that mic system, which was very well, uh, well [01:16:30] organized. Mm. And the stage was, uh, was set. Mm. And, um, so Anna Hazare was different, uh, in the sense that, A, it had, uh, a backing of the RSS. You ask anybody in the... You ask Govindacharya and, uh, Ajit Doval.[01:16:46] Abhinandan: I, [01:16:47] Abhinandan: I must disagree with you. You ask me- [01:16:49] Abhinandan: Uh-huh. [01:16:49] Abhinandan: So- ... 'cause I was, one sec, I was the f- co-founder of PCRF. [01:16:53] Abhinandan: Yeah. Which [01:16:54] Abhinandan: is why I asked if he'd met, because I used to, uh... So the PCRF is the NGO that had actually, was a secretariat for [01:17:00] the Indian Against Corruption. Yeah, I see. So while I was just discussing with Rinchin, on the ground there may have been many people with RSS Prashant Bhushan was there, you know, I was there.[01:17:11] Abhinandan: We had Akhil Gogoi from Assam was there. The first ... And of course, it didn't happen in one sitting. Like, the first sitting happened in Jan- uh, in Ramlila, which was a flop, where Ram Jethmalani came, Prashant Bhushan came, everyone came. Then Anna sat the first time in, uh, Jantar Mantar, nothing happened. After the fourth or fifth day something started happening.[01:17:29] Abhinandan: The [01:17:30] second time he sat is when the whole crowds came. So Sri Sri of course provided us the tents and all, but the first backing was actually from trade unions and the Communist Party. So I think it's a myth that it had RSS backing. Did they- If they are claiming so, I can tell you as the person who signed the checks that paid for the tamboos, it had no RSS backing.[01:17:49] Abhinandan: Well, at that time, uh, I had met with Govindacharya and Ajit Doval both. [01:17:55] Abhinandan: They went and [01:17:56] Abhinandan: claimed anything. [01:17:56] Abhinandan: They don't know Jack. [01:17:57] Abhinandan: Ha. No, no. They may not know Jack, [01:18:00] Abhinandan. No. But at that time- ... a movement can have several disjointed, uh, this thing. I don't think it was one person or ... They, they were a lot of my friends, socialists and, uh, uh, activists, feminists who joined that movement- Mm[01:18:16] Abhinandan: because there was a lot of anger against the Congress at that time. Mm. There was a lot of, uh, uh, issue with the 2G and CWG and whatever, but it was also that a lot of the mobilization ... And it, uh, it was [01:18:30] not just Delhi, it was across India. [01:18:33] Promo: Mm. [01:18:33] Abhinandan: Across India there, there was a lot of mobilization by the RSS, because ultimately who did the b- who did the movement benefit?[01:18:42] Abhinandan: They created a political vacuum. You know, where is Lok Pal now? [01:18:46] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:18:48] Abhinandan: You know, you- Where is RTI? Now Where is RTI? Where is [01:18:51] Abhinandan: Lokpal? Mm. [01:18:51] Abhinandan: Uh, you know, Lokpal is a defunct body. [01:18:53] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:18:54] Abhinandan: They created a political vacuum. This whole anti-political stance that they had, that [01:19:00] parliament is bad and all the politicians are corrupt.[01:19:02] Abhinandan: Mm. It was an anti-political- Mm ... uh, s- stand which created a political vacuum in which only one person and one organization had the strength to move in, which was Narendra Modi and- Mm ... and the RSS. Yeah. Uh, right. So I'm not saying everybody associated with the, uh, Anna Hazare movement was RSS. Of course not.[01:19:22] Abhinandan: A lot of people who had ... who came from divergent political, uh, backgrounds. I've had many arguments, in [01:19:30] fact, even with Prashant. [01:19:31] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:19:32] Abhinandan: Uh, even Prashant and Yogendra. I went and told Prashant, "What are, what are you doing?" [01:19:36] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:19:37] Abhinandan: You are, you are discrediting and completely bringing down one government and replacing it with what?[01:19:44] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:19:45] Abhinandan: Right? So, uh, so I'm not saying it was [01:19:49] Abhinandan: a- So who does it benefit from this? [01:19:50] Abhinandan: Uh, who w- who will benefit from this? You know, like, uh, a lot of move- I don't, I don't even know what the future of this movement is- Mm ... right [01:20:00] now, but a lot of the movements ultimately end up benefiting political parties. Like the JP movement ended at, ended up polit- politically benefiting the socialists- Mm[01:20:10] Abhinandan: and the, uh- Jan Sangh ... and the r- and the Jan Sangh. [01:20:13] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:20:13] Abhinandan: Uh, right. Uh, Anna Hazare benefited, uh, Modi definitely- Mm ... and AAP was born out of that. [01:20:19] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:20:19] Abhinandan: Uh, and, uh, farmers movement, uh, in, uh, in Delhi, it ended up creating a discontent which ultimately damaged [01:20:30] the BJP in Western UP and not immediate- That's [01:20:32] Abhinandan: an, that's an interesting example.[01:20:33] Abhinandan: Not- Let's take that. That had no ideological motives. [01:20:36] Abhinandan: No. Of course, of course it did. [01:20:38] Abhinandan: What? [01:20:38] Abhinandan: Of course it did. [01:20:39] Abhinandan: Other than [01:20:39] Abhinandan: the farm [01:20:39] Abhinandan: laws. [01:20:40] Abhinandan: Farmers, farmers movement, if you'd, if you look at the unions that were backing the farmers- Mm ... movement, they had connections with the communists It was a very left-backed movement But [01:20:51] Abhinandan: even the RSS farm, you know, they have that part.[01:20:54] Abhinandan: Anand probably knows- The RSS was not [01:20:56] Abhinandan: supporting it ... [01:20:56] Abhinandan: the, what I'm saying is that finally [01:21:00] it, it had backing just like the Jan Lokpal Movement, the first backers of that were the communists. Later the RSS may have sent their cadre in. So eventually even the RSS's farm, you know, union bit, they also extended support.[01:21:12] Abhinandan: No, no, no, [01:21:13] Abhinandan: no, no. [01:21:13] Abhinandan: So ideologically, where would you place it? No, [01:21:15] Abhinandan: no, no, no, no, no, no, no. RSS never supported the farm movement. If you look at the BMS, uh, Bharatiya Kisan Sangh statements right till the end, they were never present on the grou- uh, on the ground in the farmers movement. It was a- But [01:21:29] Abhinandan: they did, [01:21:30] but they did issue a statement in [01:21:30] Abhinandan: their support They have issued a statement because ult- when the ground situation[01:21:34] Abhinandan: RSS is a very amorphous organization. Mm. They can support beef in the Northeast and they can, they can oppose beef in the- Mm ... in, in Northern India. They are not a registered organization which can metamorphose into anything. [01:21:45] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:21:45] Abhinandan: Right? It's a very opportunistic, uh- Mm ... organization, and very, very colorful. Uh, you know, and, and- But it is ideological[01:21:53] Abhinandan: it's ideological, but in the way they project themselves in different forms and it's very, very, [01:22:00] uh, eclectic. It's very, very, um, light on the foot. It can, it can c- it can create itself into anything. Yeah [01:22:08] Abhinandan: So doesn't that actually go against, in my view or my understanding is then that actually goes against the argument that you had made that it has to have ideolo- ideological moorings.[01:22:17] Abhinandan: If RSS, one of the most effective, you know, political entities in our time is so fluid in ideology. In that case, is that a strength or weakness actually for any movement? [01:22:28] Rinchen: No, I mean, in terms of the [01:22:30] argument of whether a, a successful protest movement depends on whether it has ideological moorings or not, um, I can't s- I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm a little unsure.[01:22:39] Rinchen: Mm. But I've g- given the examples that Purnima has given, I'm probably tend to think on those. Like, my issue with the cockroach Aam Aadmi Party movement, whether ideological mooring, I mean, clearly they don't, I don't know if they have any real ideological convictions personally. Mm. My- I don't [01:22:53] Abhinandan: think they've thought it through, actually[01:22:54] Rinchen: yeah, my, my concern with them is that their demands are not structural. Their demands are not systemic. [01:23:00] Their, it's like resignation, Pradhan ka resignation, and one crore compensation. [01:23:03] Abhinandan: Is not enough. [01:23:04] Rinchen: It's not enough. Like e- But then what? So, uh, with farm, with, uh, the argument that I was making earlier was that with all, like, the major protests, mass protest movements in the last 10, 15 years, they've all[01:23:16] Rinchen: Of course, uh, you can argue that they all had some sort of ideological moorings, but also more import- at least from my perspective, more importantly, they had structural systemic demands- Mm ... that would outlast any [01:23:30] immediate minister's reshuffle or resignation. Yeah. That is the point I was making. [01:23:34] Abhinandan: What were you, Anand?[01:23:35] Abhinandan: So does that, you know, work in favor of a movement having ideological mo- moorings, or that could actually limit it and inhibit its, its flexibility? [01:23:43] Anand: I think it's, uh, political capital comes from if you- Mobilization is one part, but mobilization for what? You need for, uh, say, electoral politics bidders for power.[01:23:58] Anand: And if you are not a bidder for [01:24:00] power, then somebody would be a bidder for power. So that mobilization is a means, but towards what end? So what he was saying is that there is a degree of ad hocism, like res-resignation or lower the fee- Mm-hmm ... transfer that person. Now, these are goal-less specific agitations, just like create this estate, uh, as an, an example I, I earlier gave, the TRS.[01:24:28] Anand: So its [01:24:30] agenda should have w- wound up, uh, once Telangana was created, but it took a life of its own because it had to be a bidder for power. [01:24:39] Insert 2: Right. [01:24:39] Anand: So f- uh- And, uh, w- the other thing that it has to be ideological, but once you are in an opposition camp and project yourself as a different ideology, then there are a lot of generalities on which m- a lot of parties would be the same.[01:24:58] Anand: What is your- Then [01:25:00] you're dis- Yeah ... you [01:25:00] Abhinandan: can't stand out. [01:25:01] Anand: Yes. Mm-hmm. What is your product differentiation then? Y- y- okay, I am secular. I, I am people friendly. I, I have socialist policies and this, uh- So that dilutes your- So- ... your strength ... uh, so everyone, uh, who is projecting, uh, uh, every political formation projected against the ruling party is just s- uh, saying same thing.[01:25:23] Anand: Mm-hmm. So what is your product, uh, differentiation? Like anti-corruption, like promoting peace can mean anything [01:25:30] to anybody. So it's, it, it- Yeah, even Bush was promoting peace. Yeah. Communism led to peace. So, so secular politics, just like, uh, anti-corruption can mean anything to anybody. So- [01:25:39] Abhinandan: So Punwar, reconcile the advantages of being, you know, quick on your feet and changing positions.[01:25:46] Abhinandan: I mean, does that come from having a rich legacy? Well, it's, uh, ideolog-[01:26:00] [01:26:05] Abhinandan: being ideological, uh, gives you that mooring and gives you the organizational strength- [01:26:10] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm ... [01:26:10] Abhinandan: or like the RSS does, or in the Farmers' Union case, they were the, uh, farm unions, which gave it structural support, which gave it a... It was, uh, w- farming, farmers movement was not just about farm laws, it was also an anti-corporate agenda.[01:26:27] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. They talked about Adani and Ambani taking- The [01:26:30] logistics, the whole- ... taking over the logistics. So it was a very, uh, it, it gave it a larger perspective and a larger context, right? Mm-hmm. So it can also give you perspective, it can give you a systemic understanding, uh, ideological moorings, whereas a non-structural movement like the cockroach also has the ability to attract a larger mass of people- Mm-hmm[01:26:53] Abhinandan: who are not... You know, when you say, "I am secular," uh, or, uh, let's say forget secular, it's become a bad word in [01:27:00] India now. Mm-hmm. Uh, "I'm anti-corruption." There is nobody in India who will say, "I will-" [01:27:04] Abhinandan: I say I'm [01:27:04] Abhinandan: pro-corruption. You know? So all kinds, all shades of people, it c- Mm-hmm ... it can become an umbrella organization of- Mm-hmm[01:27:11] Abhinandan: you know, of like the Congress of the pre-independence era, you know? It can have socialist, it can, it can have the right-wingers, it can have a lot of other movements. So it can have that advantage, but it will not have the structural strength or the ideological perspective of a, of an organiza- of a, of a movement anchored in, in [01:27:30] ideology and, uh, organizational strength.[01:27:32] Abhinandan: Uh, so I, uh, I mean, cockroach, I feel, um- I feel that something is- [01:27:39] Abhinandan: You think this momentum they've got in the last two, three days, will it continue or they've reached the ... I mean, 'cause now they're going to march to Parliament, and I'm guessing they'll be stopped, right? Yeah, [01:27:47] Abhinandan: it's gaining in, in, in momentum.[01:27:49] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:27:50] Abhinandan: And, uh, uh, political parties are, are being forced to, uh, take a, uh, a note. Uh- Do [01:27:57] Abhinandan: you think that's strategically a smart thing to do? [01:27:59] Abhinandan: Uh, it is. [01:28:00] [01:28:00] Abhinandan: Mm. It [01:28:00] Abhinandan: is. '[01:28:00] Abhinandan: Cause we were discussing- [01:28:01] Abhinandan: Very much ... [01:28:01] Abhinandan: they should use it as [01:28:02] Abhinandan: a arrow head to- They should use it. You know, Congress and the Supriya Sules and all these people sit there and criticize the cockroaches.[01:28:08] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:28:08] Abhinandan: Uh, my point is that they may have been part of AAP or they may have been part of Anna Hazare, but there were a lot of ideological- Mm ... uh, a lot of idealistic youngsters who became part of the AAP, AAP movement- Mm ... or part of the Anna Hazare Movement. They were not necessarily RSS or, uh, or anybody else.[01:28:26] Abhinandan: They wanted change. [01:28:28] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:28:28] Abhinandan: So, uh, uh, [01:28:30] similarly, I see in, in cockroach movement, you know, you have the AISA guys sitting- Yeah ... uh, uh, on the side. Mm. They've [01:28:36] Abhinandan: been there from the [01:28:36] Abhinandan: beginning. Uh, they've been there s- s- since the beginning. They're also fasting. Uh, you know, and the- ... youngsters very articulate. At the same time, you have very non[01:28:45] Abhinandan: AISA is, is a CPI ML liberation. Mm. But you also have very non-ideological students who are sitting there who are, who are angry- [01:28:54] Abhinandan: Mm ... [01:28:54] Abhinandan: uh, about what's going on. And- And [01:28:56] Abhinandan: the parents of some of the [01:28:58] Abhinandan: children who died ... and the parents. So I think it's [01:29:00] very, very, uh, heartening and, uh, poignant to see parents and elderly people, uh, in the ground because people are upset.[01:29:08] Abhinandan: And it's a failure of a, a, of, uh, political parties that they're not able to create a mass movement in which you can highlight the, the structural- ... flaws and the, and the problems that have gone on in the last- Mm ... 12 years. It's not enough to say for the Congress that, uh, you know, okay, the media is in the BJP's pocket, and everybody's in the BJP's pocket.[01:29:28] Abhinandan: Therefore, we are not a, [01:29:30] a, our view is not being highlighted. No. If you have a mass movement like the farmer's movement, the- You can't [01:29:36] Abhinandan: ignore [01:29:36] Abhinandan: it after a point ... you can't ignore it beyond a point. So you have to get to that scale. You have to get into- [01:29:40] Abhinandan: And to get to that scale, you have to use whatever- [01:29:41] Abhinandan: Exactly[01:29:42] Abhinandan: strategically you can So all arms of the state, whether it is the media. And let me give you an example of the judiciary. Mm. Judiciary is supposed to be very blind to, uh, to the, uh, government of the day, and they have been like that since the emergency. Like, there's no surprise about that. Even the media, I mean, Noam Chomsky wrote it, wrote it long back.[01:29:59] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:30:00] It's an instrument of power. Sure. They, they graduate where, where, they gravitate where, uh, the power is. So I mean, in this government's case, of course, it's, uh, it's gone to another level. But- In the farmers', uh, case, the government conveniently tried to shift the responsibility of handling the movement- The state[01:30:17] Abhinandan: towards the Supreme Court. Oh, [01:30:18] Abhinandan: towards the Supreme Court, okay. [01:30:19] Abhinandan: So towards the Supreme Court. Okay. Farmers- [01:30:21] Abhinandan: Mm ... [01:30:22] Abhinandan: refused to go and appear before the Supreme Court. They said, "We ... Our problem is with Parliament. We will go and appear before the political class." Parliament. "We [01:30:30] have nothing to do with the Supreme Court."[01:30:31] Abhinandan: So, so Supreme Court kept sitting there. They, they constituted a committee, whatever, and they didn't do anything. They didn't say anything because they were also gauging the mood of the people. They came out with a report which was slamming the farm movement and appro- approving the farm laws much after the farm movement had been[01:30:50] Abhinandan: Yeah, after everyone had gone home. [01:30:51] Abhinandan: Ha, [01:30:52] Abhinandan: yeah. In fact, it's phenomenal that the farm movement, it ... They had some very ugly incidents including those Nihangs cutting off that guy's hand and all You know, some [01:31:00] horrible stuff happened, but yet it maintained its momentum and its credibility. I think something to be said.[01:31:05] Abhinandan: But before we wind up and ask Poorna, sorry, you have something to add? [01:31:08] Rinchen: Yeah. I think it's very telling, I was reading in the Express today, I think, that Sonia Gandhi had directed the, uh, sort of, uh, her sort of the, her sort of lead Congress party leaders to, you know, uh, go to Jantar Mantar and sort of show solidarity- Mm[01:31:22] Rinchen: with Sonam Wangchuk and stuff. And she harked back to, uh, we were discussing this earlier, in the mid-'80s where Sonam [01:31:30] Wangchuk's father, Sonam Wanggel, uh, he was a, I think, former minister of the J&K government, but he was also on a fast, uh, where people of Ladakh were demanding scheduled tribe status, and Indira Gandhi had come and, you know, br- broke the fast there, so- [01:31:44] Abhinandan: Sonia Gandhi [01:31:45] Rinchen: was harking back to that[01:31:48] Rinchen: yeah, yeah, yeah. She's harking back to that. But she's clearly smarter than many of the others. Yeah. And, and, and the fact that... And so then yesterday, K. C. Venugopal I think issued a statement. Today morning, I think Pawan Khera was there- Yeah ... at the Jantar Mantar, so. Yeah, that's a smart thing to do. Yeah, so I think smart [01:31:57] Abhinandan: thing to do.[01:31:58] Abhinandan: Yeah, it's, it's definitely Definitely [01:31:59] Rinchen: a smart thing to do. [01:32:00] [01:32:00] Abhinandan: But before we wind up and ask Poorna for her recommendations, I'm just curious, and we'll get you for a longer podcast, about what, what did, uh, Mr. Doval and others say about, uh, their contribution to the Jan Lokpal movement, that they did what all to it?[01:32:13] Abhinandan: And, and- Govindacharya. Mm. In fact, uh, I was in Mail Today at that time, and I did a series of stories- Mm ... about how the, uh, the, the RSS was mobilizing. They saw a movement and they decided that they had to get in, right? Mm. So Vijay Goyal, Sudhanshu Mittal- Mm ... all of them were [01:32:30] galvanized. [01:32:30] Samrat X: Mm. [01:32:30] Abhinandan: And Govindacharya, uh, the, Baba Ramdev.[01:32:33] Samrat X: Mm. [01:32:33] Abhinandan: Let's not forget who Baba Ramdev is. Mm. And the day Baba Ramdev, uh, capitulated, he ran away wearing- Yeah ... some women's clothing or something, right? [01:32:42] Abhinandan: Oh, that was [01:32:42] Abhinandan: later. Uh, that was- That was [01:32:43] Abhinandan: when he... That was his protest. [01:32:45] Abhinandan: Yeah. Mm. So I- Okay ... I was constantly in touch with Govindacharya. I've covered the BJP and RSS for a long time- Mm[01:32:51] Abhinandan: so I know how they capture movements, how they do stuff, right? They're very, very politically agile. One thing you have to give it to the RSS. Mm. They are so agile [01:33:00] politically. And their [01:33:00] Abhinandan: cadre is very committed. [01:33:01] Abhinandan: Very committed. [01:33:02] Abhinandan: It won't... It doesn't slack [01:33:03] Abhinandan: off. They sense things and they get [01:33:05] Abhinandan: in. Yeah. You know?[01:33:05] Abhinandan: And, and, and what did, uh, Mr. Doval say? That he had engineered this, like everything else in [01:33:09] Abhinandan: the country? No, no. Do- Doval didn't say anything. Mm. Doval, e- et cetera, they were sitting in the Vivekananda Foundation- Mm ... and figuring out how to capture. You know? I see. Okay. Yeah. Mm. So they saw a movement, they saw the p- uh, pop- popular part- participation.[01:33:24] Abhinandan: They knew that the BJP under Gadkari and Rajnath Singh is not capable of harvesting the [01:33:30] anti-Congress, uh, sentiment within the- Mm ... popular, uh, imagination. Yeah. And they saw a movement, they latched onto it. Yeah. 100%. [01:33:37] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:33:37] Abhinandan: You see? So that's a smart thing to do. [01:33:40] Abhinandan: Yes. Mm. [01:33:41] Abhinandan: Yeah. [01:33:43] Abhinandan: So with that, let us get the recommendations from Poorna We have a tradition, Purnima, every Hafta guest gives some recommendation.[01:33:53] Abhinandan: It doesn't have to be a article or a book, it could be anything. It could be a match, it could be a film. Give us one or two [01:34:00] recommendations that could enrich the lives of our listeners. [01:34:02] Abhinandan: Yeah, well, I'll tell you, I've just finished reading Mahmood Farooqui's prison memoir, and I think it's something that everybody should read.[01:34:08] Abhinandan: I mean, uh, uh, there are two, two sides to Mahmood Farooqui, and people pronounce judgment- Mm ... on, you know, whether, whether he's a rapist or not a rapist, but my, my- Well, the, the, the court has provided- Has given him reprieve. He's, uh, he's, uh, he's been acquitted- Mm ... both by the High Court and the Supreme Court.[01:34:26] Abhinandan: But l- leave that aside, there is no doubting his [01:34:30] craft. [01:34:30] Abhinandan: Mm. Uh, [01:34:31] Abhinandan: he is the, uh, the preeminent dastango in the- Yeah, yeah ... in the country, and his book is so poignant, and he's so fascinating. Uh- He's a very talented writer ... a very talented writer. And, uh, so I read two, three books at the same time- Mm ... right? So, uh, that's, uh, Farooqui's book.[01:34:50] Abhinandan: That's one. And, uh, then there is this scholar that I've been following called Catherine Liu. She's a communist, uh, uh, academic, and she's written a book [01:35:00] called The Virtue Hoarders. [01:35:01] Song : Huh. [01:35:01] Abhinandan: Uh, it's about, uh, it's about the liberals and how they have allowed, how they have created the ground for someone like Trump to take over.[01:35:12] Abhinandan: It's a critique of capitalism, and capitalism being, uh, perpetrated by the liberals who have allowed monetization of education, monetization of healthcare systems. Mm. And it's created so much resentment among the masses that they have gravitated towards Trump. It's a [01:35:30] very- Fascinating ... very interesting, uh, argument.[01:35:33] Abhinandan: Uh- [01:35:33] Abhinandan: Yeah ... and- But Mahmood's talent, he was, um, I think four batches my senior in school And dude, I mean, we were teenagers then. You know, now when you think about it, you know, now we're all old people, so talent you kind of take for granted. Yeah. You know, after a certain age, of course, talent hoga, itna padha likha hai.[01:35:50] Abhinandan: We were 16-- I mean, I was 12 or 13. He must have been 16 or 17. He wrote and directed the Hindi adaptation of Oedipus. [01:35:59] Song : Oh. He [01:35:59] Abhinandan: [01:36:00] was in class 11 or 12. [01:36:02] Abhinandan: Yeah. [01:36:02] Abhinandan: And now when I think-- At that time we were, "Arre, woh kar rahe hai," and all. Now when you think of it, a 16-year-old boy doing that was, that is- [01:36:09] Abhinandan: Yeah, and you, you asking for recommendation, his, uh, Dastane [01:36:13] Abhinandan: Karn- [01:36:13] Abhinandan: Hmm[01:36:13] Abhinandan: uh, as Mahabharat is going to be staged again. [01:36:17] Abhinandan: Oh, is it? [01:36:17] Abhinandan: Yeah, on the 1st of August. So if there are tickets still available, I suggest everybody goes and sees it because I saw it, uh, the first, uh, sort of staging of it, uh, when he came out of jail. Hmm. In [01:36:30] 2018, I went there with my mother, and for two hours we were transfixed.[01:36:35] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:36:35] Abhinandan: He went from the epic to the Persian translation to Rashmirathi of Ramdhari Singh 'Dinkar'. It was just brilliant. [01:36:45] Abhinandan: Before we move on to the males, since you're talking about the protests and Sonakshi Sinha has suddenly spoken up and a few other- [01:36:51] Rinchen: Other heroines, [01:36:52] Abhinandan: yeah ... not big Bollywood stars, but some have.[01:36:55] Abhinandan: In case you're wondering why the big ones haven't, there is a [01:37:00] very specific reason. NewsLaud has done a three-part series investigation into what turned Bollywood into this arm of the PMO and the RSS. Uh, who are the people behind this entire architecture of Modi's Bollywood? You can click on the link or you can scan this QR code.[01:37:20] Abhinandan: Check this out. You can take the Bollywood quiz. If you take the Bollywood quiz and you get it right, in fact, appe- apparently you get one story for free. You don't have to breach the [01:37:30] paywall for that. So do, it's very interesting because it's not just Bollywood, it is politics. Bollywood drama hai, action hai, sab kuch hai.[01:37:41] Promo: Should I sit here?[01:37:44] Promo: I look straight and tall, right? [01:37:47] Insert: Please tell us what is happening in Bollywood. [01:37:49] Promo: Uh, well, Punjab '95, which is now Sutlej, you still can't watch it. It released on OTT, but disappeared in no [01:38:00] time. But guess what you can watch on OTT? Kerala Stories, Kashmir Files, Bengal Files, and I'm pretty sure you'll get to watch Shauhaan on OTT, and it'll probably get a big theatrical release, maybe even be declared tax-free in Kashmir.[01:38:15] Promo: Do you think that's a coincidence that a certain sort of movie gets released while others get blocked? Well, then I have a story for you, a three-part News Laundry series on what's really happening in Bollywood.[01:38:30] [01:38:45] Abhinandan: Thank you so much, Poornima. Thank you. [01:38:46] Abhinandan: Thank you. Thank [01:38:47] Abhinandan: you. Thanks for coming. Appreciate it. Now for the emails. Today's emails have been curated by Rinchin. Uh, if you're a subscriber, do mail us at podcasts@newslaundry.com. I repeat, [01:39:00] podcasts@newslaundry.com or click on the link in the show notes, and please keep our emails less than 150 words.[01:39:06] Abhinandan: If they aren't, we use AI to compress them into 150. Thank you so much. Rinchin, the floor is yours. [01:39:12] Rinchen: All right. Uh, Ananya says, "Hi, team. I just saw the discussion on Satluj with Hartosh." Uh, that, I think, discussion has gone on a lot. [01:39:20] Abhinandan: Yeah, lots of emails. In fact, we'll have a separate podcast about that later.[01:39:23] Abhinandan: But yeah, carry on. "[01:39:24] Rinchen: I can understand the issue with the..." So she says, "I can understand the issue with the numbers being inflated and how that [01:39:30] dilutes the battle for truth and reconciliation Punjab. However, I was very disappointed with how the entire panel framed the issue as being about propaganda and the kind of embarrassing parallels that were drawn with Kashmir Files, which Hartosh admitted he had not watched."[01:39:43] Rinchen: Uh, so yeah, that, uh, and, uh, bad and good films can be propaganda. Propaganda is not bad in itself. Please read more about film history or at least include film cultural studies scholars, not a reviewer, on your panel if discussing a complex film like Satluj [01:40:00] [01:40:00] Abhinandan: So, um, UP elections also says something about, right?[01:40:04] Rinchen: Yeah, but that is- [01:40:05] Abhinandan: Heart V5 UP elections also around the corner. Conspiracy anyone? I mean, yeah, I think there is something to be said that the kind of stuff that finds its way when something is topical. I, Ananya, I must say that not all of it necessarily has to do with the government. You know, some things are released because it's topical.[01:40:24] Abhinandan: On this, I, I mean, I don't think that is all that it was framed as. I, I [01:40:30] think I very clearly said I don't agree with Kashmir Files and Duranda and Satluj are the same. Of course, when I watched it, it was called Punjab 95. Manisha didn't agree. So in fact, why don't we read all the- [01:40:42] Rinchen: All the emails, [01:40:43] Abhinandan: yeah ... all the emails, and then I can just respond once and for all.[01:40:45] Rinchen: Yeah. Because the theme is pretty much the same, I [01:40:47] Abhinandan: think. Yeah, but there is one, uh, email that has, uh, Rohit says, "I have signed up for the book club three times, didn't receive any email." Rohit, I have escalated this with the subscription engagement team. They will be getting in touch with you. [01:41:00] Check your spam folder, maybe the mail has gone there.[01:41:02] Abhinandan: And there is one app related email also. We have also sent that to the app team. Yeah. [01:41:07] Rinchen: Hmm. Uh, Balpreet Singh says, uh, "I'm writing to express my concern regarding your decision to bring Hartosh Singh Bal onto the show without providing any meaningful counterview or challenge to his perspective," which I don't think is personally accurate.[01:41:18] Rinchen: Hmm. "Uh, given his family connections to KPS Gill, a highly controversial police officer whose role in Punjab remains deeply contested and painful for many people, this context deserves serious scrutiny. Bal [01:41:30] is reportedly Gill's nephew, and when discussing sensitive issues related to Punjab, Sikh politics or state violence, such a connection can be, can reasonably raise questions about the perspective and potential bias.[01:41:40] Rinchen: The problem is not that he was invited. A credible journalistic platform should hear different viewpoints. The problem is presenting one perspective without an informed counterview, particularly on subjects involving serious allegations of human rights abuses and historical trauma." Then, uh, Katie says, "Hi, Hafta.[01:41:56] Rinchen: Thank you for your discussion on the FIFA World Cup 2026 controversy in your [01:42:00] last, uh, episode. I also love the series on football in Let's Talk, uh, the Let's Talk About Football series as well. It is rare that a news organization covers in-depth analysis of football, and I'm proud to be a subscriber. Keep up the good work."[01:42:12] Abhinandan: Yeah, Katie. "[01:42:13] Rinchen: I have a question for Abhinandan. I am witnessing a social media campaign against Lionel Messi and/or Argentina in this World Cup. Uh, that is FIFA is favoring Messi and/or Argentina when we know how these matches were won by them. We didn't see a campaign like this in 2020, 20- 2022. Uh, did you [01:42:30] notice it, and what are your thoughts?"[01:42:32] Abhinandan: So let's- [01:42:33] Rinchen: Yeah ... [01:42:33] Abhinandan: discuss this because the Punjabis can ... So one is you do believe they're being favored, right? Argentina. Yes. So see, there are counter views on Hafta. So I just ... One thing I want to make sure, Hafta has lots of views which don't agree with each other, and that's fine. And I would urge News Laundry audience, that is a really good way to make up your mind, you know, rather than only hear people who you agree with.[01:42:56] Abhinandan: Uh, on Hafta, you know, I had [01:43:00] someone like Anand Ranganathan, who we used to disagree all the time, and many people said that, you know, "We will stop watching you. Don't get him." I mean, it, that's just not how I think it works. But I think we'll come to that later. Mm-hmm. I think that, and this purely on the basis of having watched pretty much every game so far, I think there are inconsistencies in decisions, but I would find it very hard- to be convinced.[01:43:28] Abhinandan: I think it's a very difficult position to [01:43:30] defend, to say that I watched England versus Argentina, England was the better team, but they lost. [01:43:35] Rinchen: Hmm. [01:43:37] Abhinandan: And Argentina was killing them. [01:43:38] Rinchen: Yeah, especially after the [01:43:39] Abhinandan: first [01:43:39] Rinchen: goal. [01:43:40] Abhinandan: So they did not really need it to be a superior team. I think that's true for a lot of other games also.[01:43:46] Abhinandan: I do- I haven't seen a game that was clearly one team was better, and referee decision turned it around. Now, even in the case of Salah coming down, there enough slow motions have happened. Salah did not complain. [01:44:00] Haaland has not complained because also there's a theory that, you know, England has to be made because it takes up viewership as long as England makes it to the semifinal.[01:44:09] Abhinandan: Decisions went in favor of them when Harry Kane was brought down, et cetera, et cetera. I, I do- I haven't seen any... I have seen enough fouls that should have been called the other way also, which weren't called. [01:44:22] Song : Hmm. [01:44:23] Abhinandan: Like for example, uh, um, the o- the offside. They, they did score one which is called an offside, or they [01:44:30] almost scored one- Hmm[01:44:30] Abhinandan: which was an offside, Argentina. [01:44:31] Song : Yeah. [01:44:32] Abhinandan: You know, referee could have reasonably not called that an offside also. Hmm. Hmm. So that's why I, I'm not convinced that there is any rigging. And why I think it's happening is social media, Insta, and, uh, Mr. Infantino's sucking up to Trump. I think that has led to all this.[01:44:45] Rinchen: Yeah. There's also that element. But I think with the, uh, my... It's not, it's not necessarily, I mean, prob- So the reason why I'm saying it's favoring Argentina- Mm ... is because of the selective application of rules. See, that is my thing. Like for example, Egypt's goal, that [01:45:00] beautiful solo run. Right. You know that.[01:45:02] Rinchen: And then they pull, and pull it back for VAR review, you know, when the move is already, you know, um, past like 30, 40 seconds- Hmm ... one, like literally the other end of the pitch. That was not b- That, that is... And the rules also clearly state that that was not the reason why VAR was brought in. Like, well, you legislate for something that happened like, you know, literally multiple moves back.[01:45:23] Song : Hmm. [01:45:24] Rinchen: And then you're disallowing a goal for that. And then when the Salah thing happened, so people are like, "If, if [01:45:30] that is a foul, this is also a foul." Right? So that is the issue, I think, where this selective application of rules. And in, in, in this case, I think Argentina has got a lot of the rub of the green.[01:45:41] Rinchen: I mean, like let's take England game, for example. Hmm. The very first five minutes, uh, Enzo Fernandez literally- [01:45:47] Abhinandan: That- [01:45:48] Rinchen: Yeah ... Penny [01:45:48] Abhinandan: gives it off [01:45:49] Rinchen: The, the, in the back of the head. [01:45:51] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:45:51] Rinchen: In MMA that is an illegal strike. Hmm. [01:45:54] Abhinandan: In MMA [01:45:55] Rinchen: that's an illegal strike at the back of the head. That is the minimum yellow card.[01:45:59] Rinchen: [01:46:00] Some referees would have even given it red. Now he made two, three similar foul-- Like he made series of fouls in that game and he didn't get a single yellow card. That's a problem. That's the selective application of rules. And major countries definitely benefit from- Hmm ... from these, uh, decisions. But Argentina in this case particularly, I think they've definitely been beneficiaries of this, and that's just my [01:46:22] Abhinandan: opinion [01:46:22] Rinchen: on it.[01:46:22] Rinchen: Oh, [01:46:23] Abhinandan: I don't agree. [01:46:25] Rinchen: Right. Hmm. All right. Uh, Navnu Singh, so it's a, it was a really long email, but I've shortened it. [01:46:30] Hmm. Uh, but I've kept the essential points, um- Hi, Anil. I think I was half expecting this, but inviting Hartosh Singh Bal to talk about human rights violations during counterins- insurgency takes the cake for irony dying a thousand deaths.[01:46:44] Rinchen: Not unlike inviting an IDF commander's son to talk about Gaza. For Hartosh to associate Ka- Khalra's sympathies with Khalistan, with justification for all violence by Khalistani extremists, is a tall claim, and the burden of proof, uh, is on him to prove- Yeah ... that Khalra agreed with killings of civilians, which is [01:47:00] completely untrue.[01:47:00] Song : Hmm. [01:47:01] Rinchen: Political assassinations and indiscriminate killing of civilians are not the same. I think the most charitable interpretation of Khalra's views is from a liberation theology perspective. You may disagree with it, and I certainly don't fully agree with everything from his famous speech, but you cannot dismiss someone just because they are not the perfect victim.[01:47:17] Rinchen: I do not have a problem with listening to Hartosh's arguments, although it would have been better if it were from someone not so closely involved, but his arguments are the dominant narrative of the counterinsurgency. If you want to both sides this argument, I urge you to invite Inderjit [01:47:30] Singh Jayji or someone from insaf.org, an organization which documents forced disappearances.[01:47:35] Rinchen: Also, something absent from this conversation was the fact that if, as a Sikh, you dare challenge the pro-state narrative in India, you'll automatically be labeled as a Khalistani sympathizer, and you will face considerable harassment from the state. And, uh- Hmm ... Bhavneet Bhinder says, "Hi, NL After team. I'm writing with regard to the discussion in the episode on Satluj and how the entire argument eventually diverged down to numbers.[01:47:58] Rinchen: The numbers overstated, [01:48:00] agreed, but does that diminish the ambient fear and horror that the people of Punjab lived through during the years of militancy?" Which [01:48:05] Abhinandan: Manisha made that point. [01:48:06] Rinchen: Yeah. [01:48:07] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:48:07] Rinchen: So at that-- So his... I think, uh, uh, why I would like to read his letter is because it's, I think it's a very poignant point he makes, which is, "At the time, my dad was posted in Firozpur and I was in first grade.[01:48:17] Rinchen: My only memories from those years are of the environment we lived in. I remember being so scared if my grandfather was even 10 minutes late getting home from h- his evening walks, my heart sinking with every passing second as the sun set. I remember [01:48:30] carrying on with our daily activities whilst screams and the sounds of whips seeped through the walls of our home from a nearby police station."[01:48:36] Song : Hmm. "[01:48:37] Rinchen: I remember us taking cover under the bed in the middle of the night after hearing gunshots. I remember a gun being loaded and secured by the bedside for safety every single night. I remember the dead silence and the scared eyes if we had to travel a long distance and needed to leave before dawn.[01:48:51] Rinchen: Fear was not just of the militants, but also of the cops. Fear was in the air, palpable. So when Hartosh says numbers matter, I think it [01:49:00] undermines the lived experiences of us as Punjabis. Numbers may correct the scale of a claim, but they cannot erase the fear that shaped our everyday lives. Numbers can't be the entire argument."[01:49:10] Abhinandan: Yeah. Which I completely agree. In fact, a lot of people were pissed off with me that I said Not being dismissive of those, but it doesn't matter whether it was 8,000, 25,000, uh, so a few things to unpack here. One is why Hartosh? I personally think Hartosh has been here, I think 50, 60, maybe 100 times on Hafta for the last 10 years.[01:49:30] [01:49:30] Abhinandan: I think he's a fantastic journalist. I would never discuss KPS Gill with him, and I haven't, uh, because I don't expect him to start trashing his mama, and at the same time it will not be an interesting... But on Punjab he has a lot to add. But the central point I want to make is this was about Satluj the film.[01:49:52] Abhinandan: And there were certain things about the film that he had observations on, which I disagreed with. Certain things he said that I agreed with. There are certain, uh, [01:50:00] observations on the film that he had that I disagreed with, there are certain things I agreed with. Manish, I disagreed with most of them. So I am not of the view that we will not engage with Hartosh.[01:50:09] Abhinandan: I think he's a fantastic journalist who brings interesting points to the table, which I don't often agree with. We don't agree on Jan Lokpal, for example, like Puneet was here. [01:50:19] Rinchen: Yeah. [01:50:19] Abhinandan: I completely disagree with her on that. But I just think especially News Laundry audience One has to be able to listen to things that you disagree with.[01:50:29] Abhinandan: [01:50:30] It doesn't mean that how can you platform such person? I'm, I've said many times, I'll talk to anybody as long as it is a conversation that can be had. You know, one person talks, the other person talks, we don't out-shout each other. [01:50:40] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:50:41] Abhinandan: And the discussion was about Satluj. [01:50:43] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:50:44] Abhinandan: Now, I think it is an interesting discussion to take further.[01:50:47] Abhinandan: So in fact, I've requested our producer, Amit, to get four people, two of whom have a very critical view of Hartosh's point of view. Uh, so hopefully Amit can tell us when we can put [01:51:00] that together. So it'll be a round table, and I'm gonna call Hartosh back. And just so you know, I'm going to read a, a exchange with Honey.[01:51:09] Song : Hmm. [01:51:09] Abhinandan: Honey watched the podcast. So this is for a lot of people who are very angry, and I get it. If, you know, if you have had lived experience, you will not have a very thought through, you know, level response, and I understand that. Um, so Honey says, um... So this is Honey's text: "I watched the [01:51:30] episode with Hartosh.[01:51:30] Abhinandan: Quite interesting. Thanks for your support. Heart sign, namaste." So Honey is less angry with me than many of our subscribers. My response, "You wanna do an episode with Hartosh and a couple of other journos so you can have a longer discussion?" Honey says, "No such distinctions are futile. I will certainly answer to each and every question and the concerns they have raised.[01:51:51] Abhinandan: I'm a filmmaker, and I know my responsibilities well. Hartosh's main concern is 25,000. It's there in Mr. Kalra's video he is talking. [01:52:00] I'm making a film on Kalra, so I'll mention what he is saying. If I make a film on Hartosh, I'll say what he is saying. And even in Kalra Sahib speech and in my film, I have always mentioned it is an estimated 25,000 number."[01:52:12] Abhinandan: So Honey doesn't want to come on that. So that is overall what I'm saying. Just one thing to Newslaundry subscribers because we are answerable to them We value your input, we value your feedback, and we value everything that you say, but it filters [01:52:30] through what we think is our responsibility. Many people have written to me, and I'm the last person to care about abuse, that you will cancel your subscription.[01:52:42] Abhinandan: So to them, I'm just saying respectfully, please do. You cannot give ultimatums. If you don't put something I agree with, I will cancel my subscription. If we had to do that, I would rather listen to Mr. Ambani say, "You listen to me, and I will pay your [01:53:00] journalists for the next five years." Your canceled subscription will not pay my journalists for one month.[01:53:07] Abhinandan: I would urge you, don't give ultimatums when you want to make a point. It is not a smart thing to do. It goes against that what you have been supporting. The same thing can be said about Modi supporters. You start doing Modi or we will cancel our subscription. We will have voices here that I agree with, you may disagree with, I may disagree with, you may agree with.[01:53:27] Abhinandan: Here we have just demonstrated for... [01:53:30] And as far as Hartosh is concerned, I may not agree with him on everything he says on Punjab, and I know the conflict of interest. It is like me saying I should not comment on the Jan Lokpal movement 'cause I was in the center of it. But I think I can add a more... I add more value than Veer Sanghvi, whose piece I read, which is so ill-informed.[01:53:50] Abhinandan: Now, you may filter it through the prism that I'm a compromised party, but you gotta hear the person out. And as long as the person is willing to hear you out, and say what you [01:54:00] want about Hartosh, he will never shy away from someone sitting opposite him saying that, "I think you're talking nonsense," and he will take it.[01:54:06] Abhinandan: I think that is a spirit that I urge everybody to want to support 'cause that is what makes us... helps us make better decisions. You don't have to agree with everybody. So that is my only, you know, appeal that we must be able to engage with points of view we disagree with, unless the person is a complete lunatic and who cannot [01:54:30] talk and starts outshouting you and all like Arnab.[01:54:32] Abhinandan: And I think we are so used to hearing that, we think if someone sits and disagrees with me, I have to shout out that person. No I disagreed with, you know, Purnima, fine. And in one sitting you're not gonna change anyone's mind. [01:54:47] Rinchen: Mm. [01:54:48] Abhinandan: But gotta listen to everybody. Yeah. Yes. [01:54:51] Rinchen: One last letter. [01:54:52] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:54:53] Rinchen: Abhijeet, uh, Ghaiya says, "The combination of both Hafta and Charcha provided a fascinating contrast of opinions about Khalra.[01:55:00] [01:55:00] Rinchen: But if someone had watched only Hafta or Charcha, they would come away with only one side of the story. I'm not asking for Godi-style shouting matches, but it would've been good to have viewpoints debated more directly. As always, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. I'm not claiming to know it.[01:55:14] Rinchen: In my opinion, Khalra raised a legitimate point about extrajudicial killings, even though he had some dubious political leanings. Given the brutal scenario in Punjab, some semblance of radicalization is inevitable. The discussion over the numbers was flirting with being outright distasteful, more so in Hafta.[01:55:29] Rinchen: [01:55:30] Sure, 25k is an inflated number, but 7k is an unimaginably bad number in itself. Also, exaggeration is often a legitimate tool to draw attention to atrocities that are otherwise ignored. Maybe that's the right way to contextualize Khalra's claims." I don't agree with the last bit, but it is what it is. [01:55:44] Abhinandan: It is what it is.[01:55:45] Abhinandan: But thank you so much. Write in to us at podcast@newsrun.com Or just click on the link in the show notes below. Recommendations. Rinchin, why don't you go first? [01:55:53] Rinchen: Yeah. Uh, my first recommendation is, uh, as I ha- I sort of referred to earlier, it's a [01:56:00] Reporters Collective story, uh, since we are discussing Manipur.[01:56:03] Rinchen: Mm. Uh, it's called Peace at Gunpoint. Uh, and, uh, this is by Angana, written by Angana Chakraborty and Robinson Wahingbam, and edited by Nathan Sethi. Um, so this is about the, the sort of latest config- conflagration that has taken place between the Kukis and the Nagas, and it, it's a really detailed deep dive investigative report, and I really recommend everyone to read it to get, like, a reasonably good picture.[01:56:29] Rinchen: I mean, it's a s- [01:56:30] super complex situation in here, but reasonably clear picture of what's going on here. All right. Uh, my second recommendation is, uh, this Human Rights Watch report from 2007, which is about, uh, since we wa- I watched Satluj last weekend and, uh- Mm ... then so I, I went on, went into this rabbit hole of research and found this very sort of interesting report called, uh, Protecting the Killers: A Policy of Impunity in Punjab, in India.[01:56:56] Rinchen: It's about basically how the police behaved in Punjab, uh, [01:57:00] during, uh, militancy and some, and, and the horrors they committed, and it's a very long and detailed report on that. I would... I mean, if you have the time, I would recommend you, uh, everyone to read this once. Yeah. [01:57:11] Abhinandan: Thank you. Anand? [01:57:12] Anand: Yes. So, uh, we started the discussion with SIRN citizenship, so, uh, hmm, just, uh, uh, I am recommending some Supreme Court judgments.[01:57:21] Anand: There are case summaries of it, uh, in different websites. Uh, I am flagging this because i- in [01:57:30] media commentary and lot of news reports, uh, this is, uh, generally confused, and for younger audience, uh, they should get this fact right at the beginning. I don't know the older ones will learn. Because in Express, uh, and some other newspapers also, they are, they have, uh, stated that vote to right is a fundamental right which it, which it is not.[01:57:55] Anand: So, so, and even I think in this Telegraph, [01:58:00] uh, editor case, the news may not got it wrong. And, uh, so, uh, it is not just a theoretical point, it's a practical point also, I will tell you. Now, the judgments that I want to tell you is, uh, hmm, Devi Goshal versus Jyoti Basu. Y- you will guess that case summary 1982.[01:58:20] Anand: Uh, People's Union of India versus, uh, Union of India, 2003. And, uh, Kuldeep [01:58:30] Nayar versus Union of India, 2006. And the NOTA case, again, again, People's, uh, uh, Union for Civil Liberty, 2013 then. And the latest judgment, uh, that has come last w- uh, month. So all clarified that w- w- uh, voting, right to vote is a legal right.[01:58:51] Anand: It's at best a constitutional right, but it's not fundamental right. And you cannot write that vote, right to vote is a fundamental right. And [01:59:00] the practical thing, it is not only a theoretical. Practical thing is that you will find fundamental rights in Part III of the Constitution. It's an implied right of the right to expression, some say, but it's not a fundamental right.[01:59:12] Anand: Or, uh, and the practical thing is that if it was a fundamental right, you could file a writ petition in Supreme Court just for- If you've been [01:59:22] Abhinandan: denied [01:59:22] Anand: your rights ... yes, like you can ask for mandamas and- [01:59:25] Abhinandan: But I think isn't that very basic considering India, in my view, unfairly [01:59:30] doesn't allow if you're in prison, you can't vote.[01:59:32] Abhinandan: Hmm. If it was a fundamental right, you'd be allowed to vote. Yeah. You can contest election, but you cannot vote. [01:59:37] Anand: You cannot vote. And, uh- It's a design ... uh, also, uh, in High Court you can, uh, file writ petition for violation of both fundamental rights and legal rights. Hmm. That's why in this case, High Court is in a way more powerful than Supreme Court.[01:59:51] Anand: Hmm. Hmm. But in Supreme Court you can file writ petition only for the violation of fundamental rights. Hmm. Hmm. And that you cannot do for this. So, I, I think the, [02:00:00] these cases I have mentioned because, mm, they... Uh, uh, Supreme Court has interpreted it to mean that it's a, uh, a statutory right, at best a constitutional rou- right, but not a fundamental right.[02:00:12] Abhinandan: Yeah. So I have a recommendation by my former colleague and amazing journalist, Ayush [02:00:18] Anand: Tewari- Hmm ... [02:00:18] Abhinandan: who is with The Scroll now. Lucky you, Scroll. Why the ED has arrested a BJP leader in a money laundering case. Yeah. It's a really good report. Ayush is a very good [02:00:30] reporter. Uh, in fact, he had reported extensively.[02:00:32] Abhinandan: He's the one, by the way, he and Vasant had broken the story, the first story of the land acquisition corruption in Ayodhya- Yeah, Ayodhya. [02:00:38] Abhinandan: Yeah ... [02:00:38] Abhinandan: was broken by News Laundry, by Ayush and Vasant. So I think this is a fantastic, uh, report, which I highly recommend. And, uh, Shekhar Gupta's 33-minute Punjab explainer on, you know, his experiences.[02:00:53] Abhinandan: Mm. I, I think just purely because just the amount of experience he's had of reporting on the ground and [02:01:00] because he also studied the... I mean, there's so many instances that I remember because I was still a teenager and in my 档, in fact, I was probably in twen- '92, I was 17. So yeah, I mean, I was very much an adult when much of this happened.[02:01:15] Abhinandan: I had forgotten some of those instances, and he, you know, recounts them. I think it's a really good explainer to set the context to what Punjab was back then. I don't think people can imagine what it was back then. Um, so yeah, these are my two [02:01:30] recommendations. With that, I would like to thank our sound recordist Naresh, and our producer Amit, who will hopefully put together that roundtable on Sutlej.[02:01:38] Abhinandan: I will try to ask Hani again to come, and, uh, Hartosh will come. He has no problem, and we will try to get two more voices that can counter him more substantially, hardcore reporters, on-ground journalists or editors. I hope I can put that together so that we have a more informed view on Sutlej, and we can extend it to Punjab also.[02:01:59] Abhinandan: But the [02:02:00] discussion last week was on Sutlej. Yeah. Thank you, Ninchan. Thank you, Anand. Thank you. And thank you all of you who continue to support us. Give us feedback, honest ones, make us better. Have a fantastic weekend. We leave you with this song. Bye-bye.[02:02:30] [02:02:52] Promo: Thank you for your subscription. You're changing the world by changing the way news is funded. For the smoothest News Laundry experience, [02:03:00] download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our paywall podcasts, and you'll also get access to all free News Laundry shows. Keep us ad-free and subscriber-funded.[02:03:10] Promo: Help us grow. Tell people who listen to you to pay to keep news free. Subscribe to News Laundry. Keep journalism independent

2026/7/18

Congress bets on grassroots youth cadre

In Kerala, the CPI(M)’s election defeat has set off rare public rumblings, with senior leaders questioning Pinarayi Vijayan’s leadership and campaign strategy. The Vizhinjam row has only deepened the cracks within the party.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-07-15/5dmrn3un/thenewsminute2026-07-15h2b27f6tWhatsApp-Image-2026-07-15-at-5.38.13-PM.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutouts of Rahul Gandhi and DK Shivakumar. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>Welcome to this week’s Powertrip, a political newsletter curated exclusively for subscribers of The News Minute and Newslaundry. This week’s edition is by Pooja Prasanna, Shabbir Ahmed and Lakshmi Priya.In this week’s edition, we look at Karnataka Chief Minister DK Shivakumar flagging off 10,000 Bharat Jodo Yuva Sanghas. Officially a youth development initiative, these RSS shakha-style youth centres are also being seen as Congress's attempt to build a long-term grassroots cadre in Karnataka.In Kerala, the CPI(M)’s defeat has sparked an unusually public churn within the party. Senior leaders have broken ranks over strategy, leadership, and the Vizhinjam port controversy. But there is no indication of a leadership change yet.And finally, a senior IPS officer's transfer in Tamil Nadu has set off intense speculation. While Arun’s transfer to DVAC itself surprised many, his transfer out of DVAC was CM Joseph Vijay showing his displeasure about their handling of EV Velu’s case.Powertrip is a newsletter that senior political reporters of TNM put together every week. For those who can’t access the full newsletter, get a subscription and read every Tuesday.<h2>Inside Track</h2><h4>Exclusive stories, for your eyes only</h4>CM DKS’s RSS-style grassroots gamble with Bharat Jodo Yuva SanghasThe Karnataka government has formally launched its youth outreach programmes, the creation of 10,000 Bharat Jodo Yuva Sanghas across the state, backed by an annual grant of Rs 10 lakh for each sangha. Spread across 6,000 gram panchayats and 4,000 urban wards, the initiative will be implemented by the Department of Youth Empowerment and Sports with support from multiple government departments. Officially, the sanghas are meant to promote sports, culture, scientific temper, social harmony and leadership among young people, with activities ranging from rural sports tournaments and yoga camps to community development programmes. The Sanghas will not be part of the Indian Youth Congress or the National Students' Union of India.But the idea is as much political as it is administrative. Soon after Rahul Gandhi’s Bharat Jodo Yatra passed through Karnataka, DK Shivakumar – then Deputy Chief Minister – began speaking of the need for a permanent organisation to preserve the momentum generated by the march. Four years later, that vision is finally taking shape. Loosely modelled on the organisational discipline of RSS shakhas, the Bharat Jodo Yuva Sanghas are expected to function as neighbourhood-level youth platforms that not only nurture leadership and personality development but also draw a new generation into the Congress fold, creating a long-term grassroots cadre for the party.Rumblings within Kerala CPI(M)?The CPI(M)’s crushing defeat in the Kerala Assembly election has triggered its most visible internal churn in years, with disagreements that would once have remained confined to party forums now playing out in public.During the party’s post-poll review, senior leaders are learnt to have criticised former Chief Minister Pinarayi Vijayan and state secretary MV Govindan over the campaign strategy, candidate selection, and what sources described as an increasingly centralised style of functioning. The central committee also apparently questioned the decision to make the campaign heavily Pinarayi-centric, while raising concerns over political choices such as organising the Ayyappa Sangamam summit and the party’s engagement with the SNDP leadership.The tensions have since spilt over into the Vizhinjam port controversy. While the state leadership sought to corner the UDF government over the issue, senior leaders including EP Jayarajan, KK Shailaja, and PK Sreemathi publicly distanced themselves from that line. Such open contradictions are rare in the CPI(M), particularly among senior leaders from Kannur, which is long regarded as the party’s strongest power centre. The developments have fuelled speculation that a section within the party is attempting to build pressure on the Pinarayi-MV Govindan leadership.The national leadership, however, appears to be taking a different view. While it is understood to be unhappy with the Kerala unit’s campaign strategy and leadership style, there is little indication that Delhi favours an immediate leadership change. Instead, the focus appears to be on organisational course correction first, with any discussion on leadership changes likely to follow only later.Reason behind TN DVAC Chief’s transferThe biggest buzz in the corridors of power in Tamil Nadu is the transfer of Tamil Nadu Directorate of Vigilance and Anti-Corruption (DVAC) Director Arun. The IPS officer, who was considered influential during the previous DMK regime, continued to wield a considerable amount of influence even under the present TVK government led by Chief Minister Joseph Vijay.Arun's appointment as the DVAC Director had surprised many in Tamil Nadu and also attracted criticism from political observers and sections of the public. Critics argued that retaining an officer who had held a key position during the previous regime could prove to be an early misstep for the new government. The decision eventually turned into a major embarrassment for the TVK leadership.According to Tamil Nadu government sources, the decision to transfer Arun from the DVAC to the Tamil Nadu Police Academy was taken by the Chief Minister following the agency's handling of the case against former DMK Minister EV Velu.EV Velu is facing allegations of irregularities in the State Highways Department. The DVAC has registered an FIR alleging that payments worth several crores were cleared for works in Karur that were never executed. A day after the DVAC conducted searches at his residence, the former minister left for Singapore citing medical reasons and did not appear in response to the summons issued by the agency.Sources said this development allowed the DMK's legal team to approach the court and secure relief, including protection from arrest for EV Velu. The DVAC was neither able to prevent his foreign travel nor arrest him in connection with the case before he left the country.According to sources, this sequence of events irked the Chief Minister, who viewed it as a serious lapse by the investigating agency. It was subsequently decided that action should be taken against Arun by transferring him out of the DVAC.Sources further said the transfer is being viewed within the bureaucracy as a strong message from the Chief Minister that inefficiency and lapses in handling high-profile investigations will not be tolerated.Another bureaucrat whose appointment triggered public outrage is the appointment of IAS officer Umanath, who previously served as a secretary to former Chief Minister MK Stalin. Buzz in the government is that a lot of warnings were sent to the Chief Minister’s office from different quarters against Umanath and his closeness to the members of the DMK’s first family.Zero Hour<h4>A political story of public importance</h4><ins><a href="https://scroll.in/article/1094065/bengals-history-of-communal-politics-is-fertile-ground-for-bjps-polarising-agenda">Bengal’s history of communal politics is fertile ground for BJP’s polarising agenda</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/news/a-quiet-capture-how-bollywood-became-politically-compliant">A quiet capture: How Bollywood became politically compliant</a></ins> <h3>Powermoves</h3>Top 5 political stories<ins>1. <a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/news/a-quiet-capture-how-bollywood-became-politically-compliant">A quiet capture: How Bollywood became politically compliant</a></ins> 2. <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/news/how-the-union-government-helped-isha-foundation-win-a-case-against-the-tamil-nadu-pollution-board">How the Union government helped Isha Foundation win a case against the Tamil Nadu Pollution Board</a></ins>3. <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/tamil-nadu/election-petitions-can-stall-political-defections-tamil-nadu-shows-how">Election petitions can stall political defections: Tamil Nadu shows how</a></ins>4. <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/karnataka/karnataka-governor-suspends-kpsc-chief-for-helping-daughters-get-govt-job-allegedly-illegally">Karnataka: Governor suspends KPSC chief for helping daughters get govt job allegedly illegally</a></ins>  5. <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/telangana/extra-precautions-for-sir-in-hyderabads-rohingya-settlements-telangana-ceo">‘Extra precautions’ for SIR in Hyderabad’s Rohingya settlements: Telangana CEO</a></ins>

2026/7/16

How the Union government helped Isha Foundation win a case against the Tamil Nadu Pollution Board

Previously unreported documents reveal that at least one government intervention was prompted by a request that an Isha Foundation representative sent to the union environment ministry.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-07-11/3rn3sjkj/thenewsminute2026-07-099lhuqe81isha-jaggi-vasudev-yoga-centre.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Sadhguru giving a sermon. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>“Listen man…listen to me, every law that is there in the country has been followed. If there is any discrepancy, we fixed it. Long time ago, 20 years ago… some small discrepancy… we have fixed it. There was something some 20 years ago, and we have fixed it.” This was yoga and spiritual guru Jaggi Vasudev, also known as Sadhguru, <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-IcDrQfWQo">speaking</a></ins> to a BBC Tamil journalist in June 2022. The journalist had asked about a controversy surrounding Isha foundation, a not-for-profit organisation Jaggi had founded in 1992. More specifically, the journalist’s question pertained to the foundation’s headquarters in Coimbatore, known as the Isha Yoga Center. The straggling campus is spread out across 4.87 lakh square metres and comprises several buildings, most of which were constructed between 1994 and 2012. <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2021/05/17/how-sadhguru-built-his-isha-empire-illegally">Located</a></ins> in Ikkarai Boluvampatti, a village at the base of the Velliangiri Hills, this center lies adjacent to the Bolampatty Reserve Forest, an elephant habitat. Typically, any construction in the region is heavily regulated by both the state and central governments.  Yet, Isha Foundation erected much of its Coimbatore empire without obtaining the necessary government approvals, alleged local activists and officials. The BBC journalist wanted to know why. Jaggi wasn’t playing ball. A 20-year-old “small discrepancy” relating to these alleged violations had already been fixed, Jaggi said. The interview abruptly ended soon after. The news channel flashed a <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/tamil-nadu/jaggi-vasudev-loses-cool-during-bbc-tamil-interview-switches-camera-164844">message</a></ins>: “At this point, those who were with Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev forcibly stopped recording of three cameras.”The interview—and Jaggi’s refusal to answer journalistic queries—were a flashpoint in a longer saga. By then, Isha Foundation’s environmental track record had already attracted public curiosity and attention. Its procedural violations had real-world consequences on the surrounding ecosystem, critics said. Previous investigations have <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2021/05/17/how-sadhguru-built-his-isha-empire-illegally">noted</a></ins> that the many buildings at Isha Foundation’s campus and the throng of visitors they attract have obstructed the elephant corridor over time. Some authorities looked the other way; others tried to escalate action with limited success. This is the story of one such case in the Madras High Court involving the Tamil Nadu Pollution Control Board (TNPCB) and Isha Foundation. When the incomplete BBC Tamil interview was telecast in June 2022, the case was ongoing but the court had not yet delivered its verdict. By December that year, it <ins><a href="https://indiankanoon.org/doc/194665754/">ruled</a></ins> in favour of Isha Foundation. It quashed a TNPCB show-cause notice to the foundation and held that the organisation did not need to obtain an Environment Clearance (EC) for earlier construction at its headquarters. In February 2025, the Supreme Court <ins><a href="https://www.sci.gov.in/sci-get-pdf/?diary_no=579062024&type=o&order_date=2025-02-28&from=latest_judgements_order">upheld</a></ins> the Madras HC’s decision. Although it is not very widely known, the public record reflects that the Madras HC’s decision—which the SC affirmed—relied on two clarifications issued by officials from the Ministry of Environment and Climate Change. These clarifications validated Isha Foundation’s position. What is not known is why the ministry issued one of these clarifications. Previously unreported documents reveal that at least one government intervention was prompted by a request that an Isha Foundation representative sent to the union environment ministry while the case in the Madras HC was ongoing. The documents reviewed by TNM include the letter the Isha Foundation representative sent; file notes of internal discussions among the ministry’s scientists about the request; correspondence between officials from the education and environment ministries; as well as an affidavit that the environment ministry filed in this case.   To understand what this clarification request pertained to, some background. The Madras HC decision in favour of Isha Foundation hinged, in large part, on certain interpretations of an <ins><a href="https://parivesh.nic.in/publicdocument/UPLOAD_OM_NOTIFICATION/IA_DOCS/Manual/18_SO3252E_22122014.pdf">amendment</a></ins> that the environment ministry had made in 2014.The 2014 amendment related to the process of getting an Environment Clearance, or an EC. This is a regulatory approval granted to development or industrial projects after a rigorous screening process outlined in the <ins><a href="https://parivesh.nic.in/publicdocument/UPLOAD_OM_NOTIFICATION/IA_DOCS/1001_02062025020000.pdf">Environment Impact Assessment Notification 2006</a></ins>, which draws its legal powers from the <ins><a href="https://parivesh.nic.in/publicdocument/UPLOAD_OM_NOTIFICATION/IA_DOCS/1005_21082025093639.pdf">Environment (Protection) Act, 1986</a></ins>. The amendment exempted educational institutions from seeking an EC for their projects.Isha Foundation’s legal argument was two-fold. One, that its campus qualified for this exemption as an educational center. Two, that this exemption could be retroactively applied—that is, the exemption was applicable even to construction that the foundation undertook before 2014. To bolster the argument that it legally qualified as an educational institution, Isha Foundation cited a clarification that the environment ministry had issued. It never revealed that the clarification had been issued because the foundation requested the ministry for it. “If a clarification obtained at the instance of a litigant was presented as independent regulatory guidance, without transparency regarding its origin, [it] shows the disrespect towards the law and judicial process,” said Debaditiyo Sinha, Lead, Climate Change and Ecosystems, at the private think tank Vidhi Centre for Legal Policy. Debaditiyo added that the environment ministry’s conduct in this matter “raises serious troubling questions about institutional integrity and the future of the nation’s natural assets.” The ministry’s failure to disclose to the court that it had issued this clarification at Isha Foundation’s behest “undermines public confidence in the neutrality and credibility of the institution,” he said. “Such opacity is difficult to reconcile with the standards of transparency and accountability,” expected of the ministry, he concluded.In response to a detailed questionnaire, Isha Foundation denied sending any request to the environment ministry while its case against the TNPCB was being heard in the Madras High Court. The environment ministry did not respond to TNM’s requests for comment. Isha Foundation’s changing positions on its Environment ClearanceBefore moving further, it is helpful to understand exactly why an Environmental Clearance exists and what makes it important. This clearance traces its origins to the <ins><a href="https://icsid.worldbank.org/sites/default/files/parties_publications/C8394/Respondent%27s%20documents/RL%20-%20Legal%20Authorities/RL-0150-ENG%201992-06-13.pdf">Rio Declaration</a></ins> of 1992—which comprised a set of 27 sustainable development principles adopted at the United Nations’ Conference on Environment and Development. India was one of its signatories. These principles included the directive that signatory countries exercise precaution in decisions involving projects or activities that could have adverse ecological impacts. Within India, courts have emphasised the seriousness of ECs across several judgments. In Alembic Pharmaceuticals vs Rohit Prajapati, for instance, the Supreme Court <ins><a href="https://indiankanoon.org/doc/135723482/?__cf_chl_f_tk=r0EG_yLEKkAN5qdiDW9bvuVIqlCSAuhZ3zZjxdbbmgM-1783330543-1.0.1.1-qy4VB17A5A.uFqmkvPJ_InpN44l1UZq3_9VLaOnwfHk">ruled</a></ins> in 2020, “...the statutory notification warrants a careful application of mind, besides a study into the likely consequences of a proposed activity on the environment.” It further said that an EC could be issued only after officials from the relevant local administration and pollution control board conducted public hearings as well as evaluated the likely impacts of the industrial activity.Now, back to Isha Foundation. In 2017, the foundation was seeking approval for construction work at its Yoga Center. The Commissioner of the Directorate of Town and Country Planning, Tamil Nadu, granted this approval, but with a condition—the foundation had to apply for an EC. A year later, on April 12, 2018, the foundation addressed a letter to the Member Secretary of the State Environment Impact Assessment Authority—a regulatory body constituted by the union environment ministry for each state and union territory. The foundation admitted its guilt. “We wish to inform you that we have constructed our yoga centre…without obtaining environmental clearance, thereby violating the EIA Notification, 2006,” the letter read. To mitigate this violation, the foundation requested for a post-facto EC—a clearance that the environment ministry could grant it even after the relevant construction had already been completed. Such a clearance was allowed because of a <ins><a href="https://environmentclearance.nic.in/writereaddata/EIA_Notifications/51_SO804E_14032017.pdf">notification</a></ins> the ministry introduced in 2017. Those who obtain this clearance have to undertake remedial measures as well as pay damages. An Expert Appraisal Committee, which typically comprises government-appointed environmental experts, decides on these measures and the extent of the damages on a case-by-case basis.  (The notification <ins><a href="https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy-and-environment/supreme-court-strikes-down-ex-post-facto-environmental-clearances-to-building-projects-constructions/article69584582.ece">was struck down</a></ins> in 2025 by the Supreme Court)Over the next few years, various officials from both central and state bodies scrutinised Isha Foundation’s environmental issues, including its application for the post-facto clearance. By April 2021, Isha Foundation decided to withdraw this application. The foundation’s lawyer told the Madras HC that it did so because it belatedly realised that it did not need the clearance after all. The foundation concluded that since its campus in Coimbatore was a yoga centre, it qualified for the environment ministry’s 2014 amendment to the EIA notification, which exempted educational institutions from having to seek ECs. This withdrawal request stayed pending with the State Environment Impact Assessment Authority. Meanwhile, on November 19, 2021,  officials from the Tamil Nadu Pollution Control Board (TNPCB) issued a show-cause notice against Isha Foundation, in which they argued that its Coimbatore campus violated the Environment (Protection) Act. “Construction of buildings comprising various types of residential buildings, school, meditation hall etc…completed prior to the issue of Environmental Clearance.” The notice specified that this made the foundation liable for prosecution under the EPA’s section 15(1)—which pertains to penalties for violations—read with section 16(1), which relates to offences by companies in particular.  The TNPCB asked why it would not be justified in initiating proceedings against the foundation for constructing buildings such as a residential cottages, a school, and a meditation hall, at its campus.In response, Isha Foundation dug its heels in. On 7 January 2022, it initiated a case against the TNPCB in the Madras HC. The foundation disputed the legality of the pollution control board’s show-cause notice. It also claimed that the 2014 amendment created an “arbitrary” distinction because its exemption didn’t extend to educational institutions that constructed buildings before December 22, 2014—which is when the amendment was passed. And so, Isha Foundation termed the amendment “unconstitutional”. It sought a declaration from the environment ministry that its yoga center in Coimbatore was “entitled to the exemption granted under the EIA notification 2014” for educational institutions.By December 2022, the Madras HC ruled in Isha Foundation’s favour. It cited two key reasons for its decision, both of which are directly related to two actions taken by union environment ministry officials.The two government interventions that helped Isha Foundation in court  The TNPCB argued in court that Isha Foundation had not provided any documentary evidence to show that its Coimbatore campus was “a registered educational institution.” While the foundation runs an <ins><a href="https://isha.sadhguru.org/isha-home-school">Isha Home School</a></ins>—a private co-educational residential facility—from this campus, the pollution control board noted, the premises “has other activities like yoga, meditation hall etc.” The board’s contention was that “conducting various yoga programs do not fall under educational institution.” This is where the first government intervention came into play: an Office Memorandum dated May 19, 2022. This memorandum was signed by a scientist in India’s environment ministry. Internal documents reviewed by TNM show that India’s Environment Minister, Bhupender Yadav, approved the memorandum on May 17, 2022.  The environment ministry circulated this memorandum—which is <ins><a href="https://parivesh.nic.in/publicdocument/UPLOAD_OM_NOTIFICATION/IA_DOCS/Manual/293_OM_19_05_2022.pdf">available</a></ins> on its official website—while Isha Foundation’s case was being heard in the Madras High Court. The memorandum clarified the ministry’s definition for an educational institution that would qualify for the exemption from obtaining an EC. It followed the definition provided in the Noise Pollution(Regulation and Control) Rules, 2000. Under these rules, an educational institution includes schools, seminaries, colleges, universities, professional academies and other establishments that encompass not just buildings but also “all grounds necessary for the accomplishment of the full scope of educational instruction.” This would extend to activities considered essential for mental, moral, and physical development.Under this definition, Isha Foundation’s campus could be considered an educational institution. The Madras HC judgement mentions the environment ministry’s office memo in explaining why it considers Isha Foundation’s Coimbatore campus an educational institution. What the judgment does not mention is that the ministry issued this memo within months of a request it received from an Isha Foundation representative.Internal documents reviewed by TNM show that Isha Foundation’s CR Dinesh Raja sent this request to the environment ministry in a letter dated December 20, 2021. This was a little more than a month after the TNPCB had sent the foundation its show-cause notice, and less than a month before the foundation filed its petition against the notice in the Madras HC.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-07-11/y026bwe9/thenewsminute2026-07-09vo2xzcri6494acc7-d428-4d69-8bbd-f8ef9745b56a.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption>Isha Foundation’s CR Dinesh Raja sent this request to the environment ministry in a letter dated December 20, 2021.</figcaption></figure>Raja’s letter to the ministry noted the details of the 2014 exemption for educational institutions. He also pointed out that under the Noise Pollution Rules, 2000, an educational institution included schools, colleges, universities, training centres, as well as similar institutions.The letter listed out several “educational activities” undertaken at the Isha Yoga Center in Coimbatore. These included Isha Home School; classical dance, music, and sanskrit classes for children; short-term, medium-term, and long-term programmes for yoga and meditation; as well as an Inner Engineering Leadership Programme for officers from the Indian Administrative Service, Indian Police Service and Indian Foreign Service, sponsored by the union government’s Department of Personnel and Training.Raja concluded the letter with an ask: “...it is requested that a clarification may kindly be issued whether Isha Yoga Center, with the above activities would be exempt from prior Environmental Clearance as per the EIA Notification 2006 as amended from time to time.”This request spurred the ministry into action. Records of internal discussions among government scientists as well as between officials from the environment and education ministries between December 2021 and May 2022 show that they deliberated over a possible definition for the term ‘educational institution.In a communication dated May 4, 2022, the Department of Higher Education informed policymakers from the environment ministry that, “although, different types of educational institutions in terms of school, college, university, technical institutions, etc have been defined in various statutes for the purpose of recognition, affiliation, accreditation, etc. however, there is no specific definition of the term ‘educational institutions’.” The department concluded by drawing the environment ministry’s attention to the definition provided under the Noise Pollution Rules, 2000.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-07-11/cut4hgdr/thenewsminute2026-07-09p77bdumlMoEFCC-to-Education-ministry-OM.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption>Communication from MoEFCC</figcaption></figure>A fortnight later, on May 19, 2022, the environment ministry issued the office memo that clarified which kinds of educational institutions qualified for the 2014 amendment that exempted them from applying for an EC. The memo mentions that it was issued because the ministry had received a “request for clarification on the definition of ‘educational institution’” to which the amendment was applicable. The memo did not disclose who the request came from.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-07-11/7vu6h1jg/thenewsminute2026-07-11ay11491jeducation-ministry-OM.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption>Communication from the Department of Higher Education</figcaption></figure>The definition the ministry landed on worked to Isha Foundation’s benefit. But this was only part of the problem. Much of the foundation’s campus had been constructed between 1994 and 2006—long before the environment ministry notified the 2014 amendment that exempted educational institutions. In its petition to the Madras HC, Isha Foundation demanded that the exemption be applied earlier, from September 14, 2006. This is the date on which the notification that outlines the process for obtaining ECs came into effect.  If the exemption was retroactively applied, it meant that as long as the foundation’s campus was considered an educational institution, the construction it had undertaken without obtaining an EC would be considered legal. The question before the court was whether this demand was legitimate. A second government intervention helped. On September 9, 2022, Dr C Palpandi—a scientist working for the Integrated Regional Office of the environment ministry—filed a counter affidavit in the Madras HC. The 2014 amendment was a “clarifactory amendment,” Palpandi wrote. It has been issued to “clarify the scope of 8(a) to the EIA schedule,” which pertains to special provisions relating to the regulation of building and construction projects. And so, he concluded, the amendment could in fact be applied retroactively.This interpretation handed Isha Foundation exactly what it sought. The TNPCB’s show-cause notice couldn’t hold if the exemption was retroactive. And it also foreclosed future legal actions against any other construction that Isha Foundation may have carried out without obtaining an EC. The ministry’s stance that the exemption could be retroactively applied constituted a "significant regulatory dilution to environmental safeguards,” said Debadityo from Vidhi.  “Using a substantively new and arbitrary exemption to shield past violations from accountability is not how environmental law is supposed to work,” he added.  About a fortnight after Palpandi filed the affidavit that declared the 2014 amendment could be retroactively applied, D Dinesh Raja, an authorised legal representative of Isha Foundation, filed an affidavit in the Madras HC too. Raja brought the environment ministry’s office memo to the court’s attention. He argued that this clarification made it clear that the exemption for educational institutions applied to the foundation’s Coimbatore centre as well. Raja’s affidavit did not mention that this memorandum had been issued because of a request he sent the ministry. Taken together, the office memo and Palpandi’s affidavit played a definitive role in swinging the case Isha Foundation’s way. Based on the memo, the Madras High Court decided that the foundation’s Coimbatore headquarters did indeed count as an educational institution. On the question of the retroactive application, the court said it was bound to accept the environment ministry’s explanation since the ministry was the “author of the notification.”Two years later,  on December 10, 2024, the TNPCB filed an appeal against this ruling in the Supreme Court.  Legal then, questionable nowIt is worth noting at this point that the validity of the environment ministry’s 2014 exemption for education institutions has itself been a matter of contention. In March 2024, the Kerala High Court “<ins><a href="https://indiankanoon.org/doc/164292110/?__cf_chl_f_tk=97IDTx_m2r9y8wafrLVoes3Pl66FtAynrkqGpyPqfXg-1783447873-1.0.1.1-a9mI5LaS1DR7Ewqqb4Pctq.0RqTfgzJMBGpfdHc3CZk">quashed</a></ins> and set aside” the 2014 amendment in response to a petition filed by a civil society group. The court criticised the non-transparent manner in which the environment ministry had initiated this notification. It noted that when the ministry had published a draft version of the notification for public consultation in September 2014, it had failed to mention that educational institutions, industrial sheds, and some other projects would be exempt from having to seek an EC. This, the court ruled, constituted a breach of Section 23 of the General Clauses Act, 1897, according to which a government authority must formulate laws only after they have published a draft to inform the people who would be affected of its details. In January 2025, as a result of the Kerala HC ruling, the environment ministry issued a fresh <ins><a href="https://parivesh.nic.in/publicdocument/UPLOAD_OM_NOTIFICATION/IA_DOCS/1001_19032025031834.pdf">notification</a></ins> to exempt educational institutions from obtaining an EC.  About a month later, the Supreme Court ruled on the appeal that the TNPCB had filed against the Madras HC judgment in the case involving Isha Foundation. In an <ins><a href="https://www.sci.gov.in/sci-get-pdf/?diary_no=579062024&type=o&order_date=2025-02-28&from=latest_judgements_order">order</a></ins> dated February 28, 2025, a two-judge bench led by Chief Justice Surya Kant upheld the Madras HC’s decision. The SC noted that the Madras HC’s judgment—as well as its own—had been passed “keeping in view the peculiar facts and circumstances of the case.” These orders ought not to be “taken as a precedent for the purpose of regularising any illegal or unauthorised construction in the future,” the SC added.Meanwhile, in August that same year, a division bench led by former Chief Justice BR Gavai <ins><a href="https://indiankanoon.org/doc/101896470/?__cf_chl_f_tk=qdpjaUT1d.k6dtHekHdfqZxRkOzA4rGD0H9Qib2GkqQ-1783448803-1.0.1.1-txEF3NXa8brFwEUZzFYDoepjD.oQ2b36MQzWCf1To.0">ruled</a></ins> that exempting educational institutions, industrial sheds and others from the need to comply with ECs, did not “appear to be in tune with the purpose for which the Environment Protection Act has been enacted.” The court observed that there was “no rational nexus with the object to be achieved by excluding such buildings from the rigors of the notification.” It concluded, “We, therefore, see no reason to discriminate the other buildings with the buildings constructed for industrial or educational purposes.”The Supreme Court’s differing stances on the validity of the exemption—separated only by a few months—seemed “contradictory,” said an independent legal expert who requested anonymity for professional reasons. The expert, who reviewed both the SC judgements, told TNM that when the court ruled in favour of Isha Foundation in February, it was legal for educational institutions to be exempt from obtaining an EC. Yet, in August, the same court found that creating a distinction between educational institutions and other kinds of buildings was “completely arbitrary,” the expert noted. By then, Isha Foundation had already benefitted from the SC’s February ruling. From environmental violations to ‘Saving the Soil’ Four years since the Madras HC’s ruling, all signs of controversy involving the Isha Foundation have ebbed. Independent reporting that scrutinised its ecological footprint appears to have been replaced, largely, by celebratory coverage of its PR-friendly initiatives for the environment. The best known among these is the ‘Save Soil’ movement, which Jaggi began at least two decades ago. In 2022, Isha Foundation launched a global ‘Journey to Save Soil’ campaign from a high-end venue in London. The campaign set Jaggi off “on a 100-day motorcycle journey through 26 countries to raise awareness about soil degradation…” Prestigious bodies such as the International <ins><a href="https://iucn.org/news/water/202204/movement-gaining-momentum-save-soil">Union</a></ins> for the Conservation of Nature, the <ins><a href="https://isha.sadhguru.org/en/wisdom/video/united-nations-environment-programme-joins-savesoil">United Nations</a></ins> and the <ins><a href="https://isha.sadhguru.org/en/wisdom/video/world-health-organization-joins-savesoil">World Health Organisation</a></ins> endorsed it at the time. Within India, too, criticism against the Isha Foundation has subsided over the past few years.  It doesn’t hurt that Jaggi seems to have friends in high places. He enjoys a relationship of mutual public support with Prime Minister Narendra Modi. They have both backed each other even in times of tumult. In February 2017, Modi unveiled a 112-feet bust of Adiyogi Shiva—or Shiva as the “first yogi”—at Isha Foundation’s Coimbatore yoga center. The inauguration was <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/tamil-nadu/angry-protests-modi-set-unveil-isha-yogas-illegal-massive-shiva-statue-coimbatore-57520">embroiled</a></ins> in controversy. A <ins><a href="https://www.change.org/p/prime-minister-of-india-modiji-please-don-t-attend-the-sadhguru-jaggi-s-function-destroyer-of-tribals-elephants?recruiter=44677600&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=des-lg-no_src-no_msg">petition</a></ins>  on the online petition platform change.org implored Modi to skip the event because Isha Foundation had “destroyed the livelihood of the tribals and elephants in Velliangiri hills.” On the day that he unveiled the statue, local police officials <ins><a href="https://scroll.in/latest/830260/coimbatore-nearly-500-held-for-protesting-narendra-modis-unveiling-of-isha-foundation-statue">arrested</a></ins> nearly 500 people for trying to stage a demonstration. In December 2019, Jaggi <ins><a href="https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/pm-modi-tweets-sadhguru-video-to-drum-up-support-for-caa/articleshow/73038536.cms">supported</a></ins> the controversial Citizenship Amendment Act, which introduced a religious test for citizenship and excluded Muslims. “Looking at the reactions on the street, the vehemence with which people are fighting, I was wondering did I miss something. Am I not getting something here,” Jaggi said, about the anti-CAA protests. A month later, speaking to a media organisation from the World Economic Forum at Davos, Jaggi doubled down. No one “invests where buses burn,” he <ins><a href="https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/no-one-invests-where-buses-burn-sadhguru-jaggi-vasudevs-warning-on-caa-protests-2168229">said</a></ins>. More recently, at the India Today Conclave in 2024, Jaggi <ins><a href="https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/sadhguru-jaggi-vasudev-india-today-conclave-2024-citizenship-amendment-law-caa-polarisation-environment-conservation-2515612-2024-03-16">called</a></ins> for “One Nation, One Election,” which he said would be an important step towards achieving Ram Rajya. In fact, he added, elections ought to be held only “once every eight years until India becomes a $12 trillion economy.” Editing Inputs: Binu KarunakaranThis report was <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/news/how-the-union-government-helped-isha-foundation-win-a-case-against-the-tamil-nadu-pollution-board">republished</a></ins> from The News Minute as part of The News Minute-Newslaundry alliance.I-T dept cracked down on non-profits with a law that didn’t apply. Tribunals kept saying no

2026/7/13

Hafta 597: On Satluj and the FIFA controversy

The podcast where we discuss the week’s news. <figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-16/egtq656l/HAFTA-NEW.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="New Hafta cartoon featuring cutouts of Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal, and Abhinandan Sekhri. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>This week on Hafta, Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande, and Shardool Katyayan are joined by Hartosh Singh Bal, Executive Editor of The Caravan, and sports broadcaster Arjun Pandit.The discussion begins with Hartosh’s critique of the film Satluj (previously known as Punjab 95), which he labels as propaganda carrying partial truths. Hartosh, who has reported on Punjab for years, is also the nephew of KPS Gill – the highly controversial officer who helmed the state police at the height of militancy. This was the very force that Jaswant Singh Khalra, the central figure of the film, was investigating, and whose actions ultimately led to Khalra’s killing in custody.While Hartosh doesn’t dispute that Khalra was killed in police custody – calling it a settled fact – he challenges the film’s claim of 25,000 disappearances. Using crematoria data and police-action timelines, Hartosh puts the real figure closer to 7,000, remarking, “This film is propaganda to the service of a political cause and in that sense, it has a danger.”Responding to Hartosh’s claim, Abhinandan disagrees that the distortion was intentional. Instead, he argues it’s simply a familiar Bollywood pattern of filmmakers falling for a great story without doing the underlying political homework, noting, “Punjab 95 or Satluj is a very well-made film, but it does not, in my view, give the entire story of who this gentleman was, Khalra.”Shardool takes a different approach, arguing that no film about a real person is ever fully accurate, and that the state’s refusal to admit fault – not the film itself – is what keeps these conversations from ever reaching real reconciliation. Manisha adds that for most audiences, the exact numbers matter less than the deep, uncontested memory of police brutality the film taps into.Switching gears, the panel is joined by Arjun Pandit to dissect the FIFA World Cup. A red card reversal for a star player of the American team, reportedly following a call from US President Donald Trump to FIFA President Gianni Infantino, sets the tone. Shardool isn’t surprised by these developments, arguing that FIFA’s corruption has never really been in question, but this World Cup has simply made it harder to look away from.The conversation then drifts into VAR and how technology has changed the game, with heavier scrutiny somehow making referees more exposed rather than more trusted. This tension boils over around the Egypt-Argentina match, sparking accusations of a fix. However, Abhinandan, who watched the game closely, isn’t convinced it’s rigged. On a more sombre note, Manisha steers the conversation toward an Israeli airstrike that killed a man organising a football match for children in Gaza.All this and more.<iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ec3d9497cef7479d2ef4798/6a51def173fcc6a8a7a15be9" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe> <figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/E_MhSYDabn0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_MhSYDabn0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>Hafta letters: <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/07/11/hafta-letters-respecting-nls-old-subscribers-story-ideas-and-a-letter-to-abhinandan">Respecting NL’s old subscribers, story ideas, and a letter to Abhinandan</a></ins>If you want to write to Hafta, <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/podcast-letters">click here</a></ins>. Click <ins><a href="http://newslaundry.com/sena">here</a></ins> to contribute to our Sena project. Check out the<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/store?routeName=NlStore"> Newslaundry store</a></ins> and flaunt your love for independent media. Download the<ins><a href="http://www.newslaundry.com/download-app"> Newslaundry app</a></ins>. Song: <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXfzPtwkEUo&list=RDCXfzPtwkEUo&start_radio=1">Kothe te aa mahiya</a></ins>Timecodes00:00:00 - Introductions and announcements00:04:44: Headlines0:09:23: Cockroach Janata Party Protest0:19:48: Satluj Movie 0:56:50: Fifa Controversy 1:17:18: Impact of Pop Culture1:37:30: Letters1:55:09: Recommendations—------------------------------------------------------------------------------References<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/book-club">NL -TNM Book Club registration </a></ins><ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/mmmk">NL -TNM Joint Subscription </a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/podcasts/south-central">South Central</a></ins>Support and Subscribe to <ins><a href="https://caravanmagazine.in/subscribe">The Caravan</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/07/10/the-film-will-make-you-rs-100-cr-look-at-kashmir-files-inside-the-quiet-capture-of-bollywood">‘The film will make you Rs 100 cr, look at Kashmir Files’: Inside the quiet capture of Bollywood</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/07/08/when-psus-fertiliser-shops-and-flour-mills-became-uttarakhands-investors-after-global-summit">When PSUs, fertiliser shops, and flour mills became Uttarakhand’s ‘investors’ after global summit</a></ins>—------------------------------------------------------------------------------RecommendationsAbhinandan Sekhri<ins><a href="https://www.npr.org/2026/07/03/nx-s1-5879357/world-cup-penalty-kick-game-theory">How to win a penalty shootout (with game theory)</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkUOM2wRmV0">What Has Chris Rufo Wrought? | The Ezra Klein Show</a></ins>Manisha Pande<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/reports/the-mou-mirage#container">The MoU Mirage</a></ins>Shardool Katyayan<ins><a href="https://eastmojo.com/premium/2026/07/07/how-men-in-indian-sports-protect-themselves-after-exploiting-women/#google_vignette">How men in Indian sports protect themselves after exploiting women</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-026-02143-x">Nobel-winning chemist leaves US to direct AI materials lab in China</a></ins><ins><a href="https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10906797/">Comparing the effectiveness of water flosser and dental floss in plaque reduction among adults: A systematic review</a></ins>Hartosh Singh Bal<ins><a href="https://caravanmagazine.in/environment/modi-nitish-governments-adani-power-pirpainti-bihar">Imbalance of Power: How the Modi and Nitish governments put Adani Power before the people of Bihar</a></ins>Arjun Pandit<ins><a href="https://www.amazon.in/Football-Shadow-Penguin-Modern-Classics/dp/0241355354?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=A1WYWER0W24N8S">Football in Sun and Shadow</a></ins>Check out <ins><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VCmV6yr5t1LHE77Xp5-cYhWrQSkhW3A8nix310MvRQU/edit?usp=sharing">previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters</a>. </ins>Produced by Ashish Aannd with production assistance from Sourav. Sound by Anil Kumar.

2026/7/11

The Congress SIR strategy in Karnataka

In Tamil Nadu, we learnt that only a handful of ministers of the new TVK government have established a good working relationship with their respective department secretaries.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-07-08/ktn8q8wk/thenewsminute2026-07-07qfe6pwk4DKS.jpg.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutout of DK Shivakumar." referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>Welcome to this week’s Powertrip, a political newsletter curated exclusively for subscribers of The News Minute and Newslaundry. This week’s edition is by Dhanya Rajendran, Shabbir Ahmed, and Pooja Prasanna.The SIR process in Karnataka has taken a surprising political turn – unlike in other states, the BJP is objecting to the exercise. Congress leaders we spoke to said they plan to use this to their advantage.Despite mixed reactions from street vendors and activists, the Congress believes that its Bengaluru footpath clearance initiative is generating positive public support that outweighs the backlash.In Tamil Nadu, we learnt about growing friction between TVK ministers and bureaucrats. Details in the newsletter. Powertrip is a newsletter that senior political reporters of TNM put together every week. For those who can’t access the full newsletter, get a subscription and read every Tuesday.<h2>Inside Track</h2><h4>Exclusive stories, for your eyes only</h4><h3>The Congress SIR strategy in Karnataka</h3>The Special Intensive Revision (SIR) process in Karnataka has thrown up an unexpected political twist. While in most states the Opposition has objected to the SIR exercise and the BJP has defended it, in Karnataka it is the reverse.The BJP and its ally, the JD(S), have approached the Election Commission of India, alleging that the Congress has been organising verification camps in community halls, mosques, and other public spaces with the help of Booth Level Officers (BLOs). The allegation is that these camps are aimed at facilitating the inclusion of “illegal Muslims” in the electoral rolls.The News Minute spoke to several Congress leaders about their plans. All of them said they would not stop these efforts. Instead, they said the exercise would be expanded over the coming days as many people are struggling to fill the SIR forms and complete the verification process.One Congress leader said the party actually wants the BJP and JD(S) to continue raising objections once the draft electoral roll is published. According to the leader, if the two parties persist with their complaints despite people receiving assistance to complete the process, the Congress will use that to argue that the SIR exercise itself is fundamentally flawed.“We want them to complain. Only then can we point out how this exercise is a failure nationally,” the Congress leader said.Congress scores brownie points with Bengaluru footpath clearance driveThe Bengaluru footpath clearance drive, aggressively pushed by Bengaluru Development Minister Krishna Byre Gowda, has evoked mixed reactions. While many residents have welcomed the initiative to remove encroachments from major footpaths, street vendors and activists have accused the state government of acting hastily and jeopardising hundreds of livelihoods.With social media sharply divided, the issue has also prompted discussions within the Congress. Bengaluru has traditionally been a BJP stronghold. Although the Congress improved its performance in the 2023 Assembly election by winning 12 of the city’s 28 seats, the city has been politically challenging for the party.According to feedback shared by a few Congress MLAs with the party leadership, the footpath clearance drive has generated a positive perception of the government among a large section of residents. One MLA told us that many of his constituents are happy with the initiative, arguing that while vendors are understandably upset, they form only a small section of the electorate.The MLA also pointed out that similar clearance drives have taken place in the past, but this one has received far greater publicity and has been sustained over several days. According to him, the anger among vendors is likely to subside once alternative vending spaces are identified. For now, he said, Congress MLAs appear convinced that the political gains from the footpath clearance drive outweighs the backlash from street vendors.TVK govt faces bureaucratic heatIn Tamil Nadu, differences have emerged between many ministers and bureaucrats, with ministers accusing bureaucrats of moving too slowly and bureaucrats saying the ministers in the new Tamilaga Vettri Kazhagam government are disregarding their advice.According to Secretariat sources, only a handful of ministers have managed to establish a good working relationship with their respective department secretaries, while others are finding it difficult. The reason is that, except for a few, none of the ministers have any prior experience in handling bureaucrats, and this has resulted in friction between the ministers and department secretaries.In Tamil Nadu, the bureaucracy has been powerful. Particularly in the last 10 years, after the demise of leaders like Karunanidhi and Jayalalithaa, the bureaucracy has been all the more influential, so much so that the previous AIADMK and DMK governments were accused of being run by bureaucrats.Moreover, these bureaucrats have worked with senior politicians.Sources said that young ministers have complained that sometimes they are not being treated well or taken seriously by bureaucrats. Similarly, bureaucrats have expressed displeasure that their suggestions are being ignored by the ministers and have lodged complaints with the Chief Secretary.Sources also said that there is an element of unease visible in meetings. The officers do not want to be questioned about anything that happened during the previous regime.<h3>Zero Hour</h3><h4>A political story of public importance</h4><h3><ins><a href="https://scroll.in/article/1094045/the-supreme-courts-right-to-walk-judgment-should-change-how-indian-cities-build-roads">The Supreme Court’s right-to-walk judgment should change how Indian cities build roads</a></ins> </h3>Walking is the most common mode of transport in cities. Yet pedestrians receive the least attention in urban planning and public investment.<h3>Powermoves</h3>Top 5 political stories<ol><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/karnataka/karnataka-voter-roll-revision-why-sir-enumeration-has-sparked-questions">Karnataka voter roll revision: Why SIR enumeration has sparked questions</a></ins> </li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/tamil-nadu/tn-farmers-allege-karnataka-has-begun-survey-work-for-mekedatu-project">TN farmers allege Karnataka has begun survey work for Mekedatu project</a></ins> </li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/telangana/explainer-telanganas-cure-bill-seeks-to-reshape-governance-in-hyderabad">Explained: Telangana's CURE Bill seeks to reshape governance in Hyderabad</a></ins> </li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/kerala/who-owns-your-hospitals-private-equitys-growing-grip-on-keralas-healthcare">Who owns your hospitals? Private equity's growing grip on Kerala's healthcare</a></ins> </li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/news/what-is-the-national-pharmacy-commission-bill-heres-what-the-draft-proposes">What is the National Pharmacy Commission Bill? Here's what the draft proposes</a></ins> </li></ol>

2026/7/8

Who owns your hospitals? Private equity’s growing grip on Kerala’s healthcare

With global private equity firms having found a lucrative market in Kerala, it is feared that the state’s famed healthcare model may be replaced by a system that prioritises profit over people.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-07-04/17kd3nyf/thenewsminute2026-07-03zuuvhudmKeralahealthrepimage.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption>AI-generated image for representation</figcaption></figure>When Chazhikattu Hospital was set up in Thodupuzha municipality in Idukki district in 1933, health facilities were rare in the area. What began as a nursing home under Dr CK Stephen grew over the years into a reputed private hospital run by his family. The family’s establishment survived for 91 years. Then, in October 2024, it was acquired by the Kozhikode-based Baby Memorial Hospital (BMH).BMH acquired Chazhikattu for an undisclosed amount in October 2024, just months after the US-based private equity firm Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co (KKR) acquired a controlling stake in BMH. Chazhikattu, now rebranded as Baby Memorial Hospital, serves as one of BMH’s satellite hospitals, with a focus on orthopedic surgery. Over the last few years, there has been a spate of global PE firms acquiring hospitals across Kerala. The money that has been poured into the state’s healthcare sector by PE firms in the last five years reportedly exceeds Rs 20,000 crore. This trend raises questions about the future of healthcare in the state, especially because 65–70 percent of Kerala’s population depend on the private sector for healthcare. The state’s private health sector, along with its public health institutions, has been instrumental in building its renowned healthcare model. Small private clinics and hospitals play a significant role in ensuring that the state maintains many of the <ins><a href="https://nhsrcindia.org/sites/default/files/2026-05/NHA%202022-23%20Report.pdf">healthcare statistics</a></ins> it boasts of, like the lowest child mortality rate in India (<ins><a href="https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/keralas-infant-mortality-rate-falls-to-all-time-low-of-5/article70019004.ece">five</a></ins> per 1000 live births, which is lower than 5.6 of the USA) and maternal mortality rate (<ins><a href="https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/keralas-maternal-mortality-ratio-now-stands-at-24/article71011333.ece">24</a></ins>, while the national average is 87).  With global PE firms having found a lucrative market in Kerala, public health experts warn that the state’s accessible model may be replaced by an insurance-driven system that prioritises profit over people. There are also concerns that expenses will further surge. While the average Indian household <ins><a href="https://nhsrcindia.org/sites/default/files/2026-05/NHA%202022-23%20Report.pdf">spends</a></ins> Rs 2,767 on healthcare every year, those in Kerala spend three times more: Rs 8,388. Annually, Keralites’ out-of-pocket expenditure on health crosses Rs 30,197 crore. Even the state’s budgetary allocations for health is less than half that amount.TNM examined several hospital acquisitions and financial statements, from multi-speciality chains such as KIMS Healthcare, Baby Memorial Hospital (BMH), and Aster DM Healthcare to small and medium hospitals in tier 3 and tier 4 towns. We spoke to medical professionals, public health experts, and hospital managements to understand how private equity ownership is changing hospitals and what it could mean for Kerala's healthcare system. This story also explores why Kerala has become a hotspot for private equity investment, whether these takeovers could accelerate a shift towards an insurance-driven healthcare model, and how the state plans to respond. TNM also spoke to former Health Minister Veena George and current Health Minister K Muraleedharan about the need for greater oversight of private equity-backed hospitals and the government's plans to explore a monitoring mechanism.The PE majors in KeralaFor a long time, Kerala’s private healthcare sector has been shaped by a mix of corporates, missionary or charity-driven institutions, and family-run establishments. Some of the leading multispeciality private hospitals in the state are helmed by doctors-turned-healthcare entrepreneurs. That landscape is now shifting with the entry of global PE firms.In September 2023, US-based Blackstone, considered the world’s largest alternative asset manager, entered the Indian healthcare market by acquiring Quality Care India Limited (QCIL), which owns a network of multi-speciality hospitals across multiple cities named Care Hospitals. QCIL’s next major move was a high profile investment in Kerala, where it bought 80-85 percent stake in Thiruvananthapuram-based KIMS Healthcare, with an investment of Rs 3,500 crore. In the next year, QCIL had a share swap merger (exchange of shares between firms) with Aster DM Healthcare, another leading private hospital. As per a statement issued at the time of merger, the hospital was rebranded as Aster DM Quality Care, a combined portfolio of Aster DM, CARE Hospitals, KIMS Health, and Evercare. The merged entity was jointly controlled by Aster promoters and Blackstone, holding 24 percent and 30.7 percent ownership respectively, it said. KIMS Healthcare chairman and managing director MI Sahadulla told TNM that the valuation and shareholder patterns are different from what is reported in the media, but refused to divulge the details. He said that the firm would go for an initial public offering (IPO) this year itself. “The money is staying here, the hospital is staying here,” he said. Sahadulla added that he did not understand the need for so much debate on the topic when India allows 100 percent foreign direct investment in the health sector.While KIMS Healthcare is continuing to focus on multi speciality services, some other PE-acquired hospitals are starting single speciality hospitals focusing on mother and child care, dental care, orthopaedic surgery, etc,. with the new investments.  US-based KKR was the next global PE firm to enter Kerala’s healthcare sector, with its acquisition of Baby Memorial Hospital (BMH) in 2024. A few years ago, BMH had around 143 shareholders, which included its managing director Dr KG Alexander, his family, prominent personalities like actor Mohanlal, and also doctors, nurses, pharmacists, and housekeeping staff of the hospital. In 2024, 70.95 percent of the shares of BMH went to Bentley Asia Holdings II PTE Ltd, a Singapore-based private equity firm, for an estimated Rs 2,487 crore. Bentley shares KKR’s New York headquarter address, and seems to be a special purpose vehicle of KKR for acquisitions in Asian countries. By March 2026, KKR, through Bentley, increased its investment in BMH to Rs 5,100 crore. Around the same time, BMH acquired 60 percent of Unimed Healthcare Private Limited, which operates Star hospitals in Hyderabad, for Rs 1,800 crore. In September 2025, KKR bought a controlling stake in Kozhikode-based Meitra Hospital reportedly for Rs 1,200 crore. By June 2024, a consortium that included Singapore-based Tanas Capital invested Rs 460 crore in Kochi-based Sabine Hospital and Research Centre, which primarily focuses on fertility and IVF treatments.PE investments are not confined to multispeciality hospitals in tier 1 cities. BMH, as mentioned earlier, acquired Chazhikkattu Hospital in Thodupuzha. Apart from acquiring smaller hospitals, BMH also expanded its network to places like Kannur, Payyanur, and Vadakara.It’s not just global PE firms that are vying to invest in Kerala’s hospitals. Indian private equity firm ChrysCapital backed the Andhra-based Krishna Institute of Medical Sciences (KIMS) enter into long-term lease agreement with Sreechand Speciality Hospital in Kannur and Westford Hospital in Thrissur in 2024, and Valiyath Institute of Medical Sciences in Karunagapally in Kollam district in 2025. Unlike other PE investments, KIMS has followed an asset light lease model by which they enter a long-term lease agreement without immediately acquiring the hospital. As per the agreement, KIMS will operate Valiyath for 20 years at a monthly rental of Rs 31 lakh, along with 4 percent of the net revenue. In April 2026 , KIMS (not to be confused with KIMS Healthcare) entered into a sub-lease deal with Avitis Super Speciality Hospital in Palakkad.  ChrysCapital, which invested in KIMS, also has investments in pharma companies such as Mankind Pharma, Intas, La Renon, and Eris. Why Kerala?Investment in healthcare by PE firms is not a Kerala-specific trend. A study <ins><a href="https://www.grantthornton.in/press-room/grant-thornton-bharat-ahpi-unveil-vitals-for-growth-report/">published</a></ins> by Grant Thornton Bharat and the Association of Healthcare Providers of India in 2025 found that 594 mergers and acquisitions and private equity transactions were conducted in India's healthcare and pharma sector between 2022 and 2024. This involves a total value of 30 billion USD. In 2024, hospitals topped the acquisitions with a share of 44 percent. However, according to former Kerala health minister Veena George, PE firms invest around Rs 2.5 crore per bed in Kerala, which is Rs 1 crore higher than their per-bed-investment in other states. This aggressive investment in the state has raised a lot of questions, including why it is turning into a hotspot of PE investments in the health sector.Kerala’s per capita spending on health as well as its demography, indicate what makes the state attractive for PE firms. As per the <ins><a href="https://nhsrcindia.org/sites/default/files/2026-05/NHA%202022-23%20Report.pdf">National Health Accounts Estimates</a></ins> (NHAE) of 2022-23 released in May 2026, Kerala has the highest per capita health expenditure of Rs 13,115 in the country. This is more than double the country’s per capita health expenditure of Rs 6,373. Apart from Kerala, Himachal Pradesh is the only state with a per capita spending over Rs 10,000. The per capita out-of-pocket expenditure too is the highest in Kerala, when compared to other states. Per capita out-of-pocket expenditure, the amount that a person spends directly at the point of receiving health care, is Rs 8,388 in Kerala. The second highest out-of-pocket expenditure is Rs 4,183 in West Bengal, which is barely half of Kerala’s. The state government spends only Rs 12,931 crore (27.38 percent) of Kerala’s total health expenditure of Rs 47,216 crore; the rest is out of pocket expenditure. PE firms could have their eyes on Kerala's high out-of-pocket expenditure, which is Rs 30,197 crore in 2022-23 as per NHAE data. Another reason cited is Kerala’s high aging population and high morbidity. As per <ins><a href="https://health.kerala.gov.in/dashboardhomelive?utm_source=chatgpt.com">estimates</a></ins>, 19 percent of Kerala’s population is aged 60 years and above, which is much higher than the national average of 10–12 percent. This is expected to grow to 23 percent by 2036, making it the state with the highest share of the elderly<ins><a href="https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=2183196&reg=3&lang=2"> population</a></ins>. The National Sample Survey’s ‘Household Social Consumption on Health’ points to Kerala’s high morbidity compared to other states. While an aging population means a higher morbidity rate, Kerala’s concern goes beyond the elderly, according to public health expert Dr B Ekbal. “Kerala was once celebrated as a model of good health at low cost, but we are not a ‘good health’ state anymore. A higher prevalence of illness is expected in a state with a large and growing elderly population.” Nearly 25 percent of Kerala’s population reported illness within a 15-day period, compared to just 13.1 percent nationally.He added, “Lifestyle diseases are rising across age groups. Incidence of preventable infectious diseases remains high. Despite the availability of vaccines for influenza and preventive medication such as doxycycline for leptospirosis, deaths from these diseases are common. Public health measures, including mosquito control and source reduction, are often not implemented consistently.”Moreover, Kerala’s reputation in terms of its health indicators has the potential to turn it into a hub of medical tourism. In fact, 10 percent of KIMS Healthcare’s total revenue came from medical tourism even before the acquisition, its chairman Sahadulla said. The major customers of medical tourism at KIMS Healthcare are patients from African countries, the GCC, Sri Lanka, and Bangladesh, as well as non-resident Indians. He added that KIMS Healthcare is planning an expansion in Tamil Nadu, describing the state as “more business friendly”. Small hospitals struggle to stay afloatIt is not just Kerala’s spending statistics and demographic traits that make it attractive for PE firms. Over the last five years, small hospitals and clinics are increasingly looking to sell or shut down, due to a range of factors. A study conducted by the state chapter of Indian Medical Association (IMA) found that 1,306 clinics and 444 private hospitals were closed down in Kerala between February 2021 and February 2026. It was during the same period that global PE firms began pouring funds – over Rs 20,000 crore – into the private health sector. IMA representatives attributed the increasing closure of small and medium hospitals to changing rules, particularly the Clinical Establishment Act of 2018.Take the example of Devi Nursing Home in Vadakkanthara, Palakkad. Managed by Dr Girija Narayanan and her husband Dr PR Narayanan, the small clinic handled low risk pregnancies and deliveries. Today, a palliative care centre functions in the same building. “It was becoming increasingly difficult to manage the clinic as we advanced in age. Aggravating the matter, a new set of rules emerged over the years, which made it difficult for small clinics to survive. These included having ICUs and NICUs, maintaining a particular staff strength, etc, which were not feasible for us,” said Dr Girija, referring to the Clinical Establishment Act. However, the public health expert Dr Ekbal said that closure of small and medium hospitals has nothing to do with the Clinical Establishment Act. “Such hospitals were mostly closed because of the emergence of multispeciality private hospitals and medical colleges. IMA’s argument is to protect major private hospitals. The previous Left Democratic Front government had introduced a lot of amendments to the Act,” he said.  Offers from private equity firms are too good to resist for such small and medium hospitals, which struggled to stay afloat due to reasons ranging from changing rules to financial issues. Still, the management of a section of hospitals are wary of selling the majority stake to global PE majors. Thrissur-based Daya Hospital is one of these.In December 2025, Daya Hospital funded its expansion by selling a 28 percent stake to Bengaluru-based PE firm Ascent Capital for Rs 150 crore. The managing director of Daya Hospital, Dr VK Abdul Aziz, told TNM that he was still getting calls from global PE firms, but he did not intend to sell more than 35 percent or give the controlling stake to a single group. “Then the hospital will become someone else's. I am a doctor. I follow certain ideologies to run this hospital. When global PE firms take over, they fix doctors’ salaries based on turnovers,” he said.With PE firms’ acquiring hospitals and clinics in rural areas to serve as feeder hospitals, yet another threat is posed to the existence of the already-struggling small and medium hospitals, said Dr Anwar Ali, secretary of the Kerala Private Hospital Association. “These companies might offer treatments in subsidised rates at the feeder hospitals and eventually force other private hospitals to shut down,” he said.Nevertheless, Dr Abdul admitted that there are more benefits to PE investments than merely asset creation, like availability of funds to procure more equipment. “Something like the ECMO machine (extracorporeal membrane oxygenation, which is a life-support system) could not be feasible from a revenue generation point of view. However, hospitals can afford such equipment with the backing of investments,” he said.While no direct link has been established between the entry of global private equity firms and the closure of small hospitals, their combined impact could potentially disrupt the reputed Kerala model of healthcare. According to Dr Anwar, the Kerala model is a result of combined efforts of government-owned health institutions, affordable and approachable clinics, and multi-speciality hospitals. “The government sector alone can't manage it. It is a fact that around 70 percent of the population is served by the private sector,” he said, explaining that  around 80–90 percent of preventive healthcare like immunisation programmes are managed by the government sector, while around 60 percent of primary healthcare is handled by the private sector. “High-end procedures, such as organ transplants, are managed by private healthcare. So most of the healthcare needs are met by the private sector,” he added.“If private clinics or small/medium hospitals are wiped out, the government sector is not equipped to handle that load. That could pose a huge challenge to Kerala model healthcare,” Dr Anwar said. Instead, Dr Ekbal said, the government can consider integrating small and medium hospitals into the network of government-run primary health centres through a public-private co-operation model. Understanding the business modelPrivate equity firms raise money from investors and use it to buy, invest in, and manage businesses with the goal of increasing their value for better returns. What makes the investment of multinational PE firms different from other forms of investment is their focus on high return of investment. The lifecycle of private equity investments involves three phases — fundraising, investment, and harvest. PE firms <ins><a href="https://www.keeneadvisors.com/news-and-insights/private-equity-fund-life-cycle#:~:text=The%20typical%20private%20equity%20fund,investment%20period%2C%20and%20harvest%20period.">monetise investments</a></ins>, typically within six to 10 years, through Initial Public Offerings (IPOs) or strategic sales. The approach of PE firms is best illustrated by a 2022 deal involving KKR in India. Four years after KKR acquired a stake in Delhi-based Max Healthcare for Rs 80 per share in 2018, it sold a 27.45 percent stake at about Rs 353 per share, a nearly five-fold increase, totalling about Rs 9,290 crore. The deal is seen as one of the highest-return exits by a private equity firm in India.What has changed in hospitals so far? KIMS Healthcare chairman Sahadulla said that there have been no changes to the hospital’s management post the PE acquisitions. On the other hand, efficiency has gone up in terms of hiring of qualified doctors, training, and purchase of equipment, he claimed. Large-scale changes are not visible in PE-acquired hospitals during the initial phase, Dr Anwar explained. “The changes that affect patients will follow. Return on investment will be the only motto of private equity firms,” he said. While PE-acquired hospitals may not have seen drastic or overnight alterations post-acquisition, several small changes have been put in place, as many medical professionals told TNM. One such change is the increase in hiring of hospital staff. Treatment costs have gone up noticeably, a doctor in a PE-acquired hospital said. “For example, the cost of knee replacement surgery for both legs was Rs 4 lakh earlier. Now it is around Rs 3.75 lakh per knee. Price of outpatient tickets too shot up from Rs 450 to Rs 850–900 for specialist consultations,” he said.KIMS Healthcare chairman Sahadulla framed this as part of a natural escalation that could be seen in any other sector. “New jobs are being created, treatments that were not previously introduced in Kerala will be available. Average revenue per operational bed (ARPOB) will increase. That is not because of escalation of cost, but due to complex and quaternary care services available. Normally there is a cost escalation of 3–4 percent every year due to inflation,” he said.  Another medical professional working in a hospital acquired by a PE firm was concerned about the loss of the humane face of the hospital. “I have seen a senior surgeon charging zero surgeon’s fee from a financially struggling patient. Even the CEO of the hospital once waived a Rs 10 lakh bill of a patient after he learned about their financial state through a doctor,” he said. With representatives of PE firms occupying key managerial positions, he feels that such an approach is no longer possible. A doctor working in another PE-acquired firm said that the huge investment did not bring any changes in the salary of staff. “If there is any salary hike, should nurses have to go on strike? A head nurse with 37 years of experience gets only Rs 45,000 here. Medical representatives in good pharma companies get a starting salary of Rs 60,000,” the doctor said. Demanding a minimum monthly salary of Rs 40000, nurses in private hospitals across the state, including PE acquired hospitals such as BMH, went on an indefinite strike in April 2026. The strike, led by United Nurses Association, was called off following intervention of Kerala High Court and mediation by private hospital management associations. Doctors in Kerala’s PE-acquired hospitals, who TNM spoke to, said that they have so far not been given targets to achieve in terms of procedures or tests, contrary to popular perception. They also denied allegations of hospitals charging high amounts for cheap generic medicines. Concerns loom large: Poor care, forced proceduresWhile it is too early to make an assessment of the impact of PE investments in hospitals, public health expert Dr B Ekbal said there are numerous concerns over it. “Even before the entry of PE firms, doctors have been facing pressure to prescribe additional investigations and procedures. There are concerns that such pressures could intensify further. So far, I have not been convinced by arguments in favour of PE investments in healthcare. I am yet to identify any benefits. Instead, there is a risk that these investments could further increase the already high out-of-pocket expenditure borne by patients,” he said.Studies too point to concerning trends. As per a <ins><a href="https://hms.harvard.edu/news/deaths-rose-emergency-rooms-after-hospitals-were-acquired-private-equity-firms">study</a></ins> published by Harvard Medical School last year, there was a 13 percent increase in the patient death rates in emergency departments of US hospitals acquired by PE firms, when compared to other healthcare facilities. The study pointed out that health care facilities taken over by PE firms began focusing on large cuts in staffing and salaries as part of its focus on profit generation. It cites these cost cutting initiatives as a probable reason for the increase in patient deaths. As per the study, hospitals had reduced capacity to care for high-risk patients after being acquired by private equity firms. “A similar move can be expected in hospitals acquired by PE firms in Kerala. Now an accident victim is examined by specialists in all fields. With cost and staff cutting, they all will be replaced by a single emergency medicine doctor,” said a senior medical practitioner. An investigation by the US media <ins><a href="https://www.scrippsnews.com/us-news/dentists-pressed-to-drill-teeth-for-profit-ex-employees-say">exposed</a></ins> how private equity firms-backed dental chains were trying to boost profit by pushing children to unnecessary root canal procedures. The investigation found that dentists were forced to meet aggressive revenue targets. Concerns that such issues may arise in Kerala’s PE-acquired hospitals are “absurd,” according to KIMS Healthcare chairman Sahadulla. “I know there are concerns about the possibility of hospitals asking for more investigations and unnecessary procedures, which are totally absurd. No one encourages such unethical practices,” he told TNM, adding that the firms are in compliance with all existing rules.When asked about why he chose private equity investment over other possible options, Sahadullah said that the process to avail PE investment was far easier than going for an IPO in India.According to him, the state government should merely focus on strengthening the public health sector. “Considering the fact that 65 percent of the population still depend on private hospitals, the government should explore public-private partnership in the health sector. The government hospitals have nine patients per bed, while ours (private sector) has four to five patients per bed. They should strengthen the public sector and leave the private sector to those who can afford it,” he said.When insurance drives healthcareDr Anwar of the Kerala Private Hospital Association said that the ongoing changes will lead Kerala to an insurance-driven healthcare system, like in the United States of America. He also warned about the cartelisation of insurance companies backed by PE firms. Many of the institutions run by PE firms have pharma and insurance companies as their subsidiaries. A senior hospital management professional said that many private hospitals already are in the clutches of insurance companies. “Hospitals will have to do some compromise on quality of treatment, as insurance companies insist on covering only a portion of the total cost. Many prominent insurance providers approve costs lower than the market rate. But hospitals can't avoid these insurers due to the patients they bring in,” he said. Relying on insurance means a high premium for the patients. While around Rs 25,000–45,000 is the premium charged annually for an insurance cover of Rs 10 lakh, this could increase over time with the gradual transformation into insurance-driven healthcare. Apart from questions over work ethics, Dr Anwar raised concerns over misuse of large-scale data. “Health data of patients in these institutions could be accessed by private health institutions and pharma companies. It is a concern,” he said. TNM has emailed a set of questions to PE firms Blackstone and KKR. This story will be updated if and when we receive a response.Time for government to actAccording to epidemiologist and public health physician Dr A Althaf, strengthening the public health system, with a focus on preventive care, can help counter the challenges posed by PE firms. "Private hospitals generate significant profits from emergency care, particularly during catastrophic health events such as heart attacks, strokes, and road traffic injuries. In many districts, there is not even a single public facility adequately equipped to manage such conditions. At least one major hospital other than medical colleges, either a district hospital or a general hospital, in each district should be identified and developed into a 24x7 super-specialty center to deal with all medical and surgical emergencies,” he said. Dr Althaf added that the health policies should be reframed with a focus on bringing down the morbidity rate. Dr Ekbal also voiced a similar opinion, saying, “There should be massive efforts to reduce morbidity. Just as Kerala successfully mobilised society through its literacy programme, a comprehensive public health education movement should be launched.” Attention should also be given to the high out-of-pocket expenditures in cases of catastrophic health events, Dr Althaf said. “Around 1.5 lakh patients suffer from heart attack per year in Kerala. Over 60,000 cancer cases were reported in 2024 alone. Around 50,000 persons suffer stroke and over 55,000 severe road traffic injuries are recorded per year in Kerala. Apart from focusing on primary health centres, government funding should be directed to secondary and tertiary care centres that deal with such catastrophic health events,” he added.He said that the government should introduce some regulatory mechanism on the lines of the Clinical Establishment Act to monitor the quality of treatment at corporate and PE-owned hospitals.The Kerala Clinical Establishment ActFormer state health minister Veena George accused PE firms of eyeing government hospitals after having managed to close down small clinics and private hospitals. “The campaigns against government hospitals are part of this. Some media are also part of creating misinformation against the public health sector. The agenda is to stop giving options,” she said. During her term as the Health minister, Veena had faced media scrutiny and criticism from Opposition parties over a series of medical negligence cases in government hospitals. Speaking to TNM, Veena, who was the health minister at the time of the interview, said that changes will be set in motion with the implementation of the <ins><a href="https://clinicalestablishments.kerala.gov.in/">Kerala Clinical Establishment Act</a></ins>, which recently got its stay vacated by the High Court. “There has been a stay on its implementation since 2017. Now the court has vacated the stay. With the Act, the hospitals will have to exhibit the costs of treatments, surgeries, etc. If the patients demand so, they have to be given a print of the expenses,” she said. Though Kerala Clinical Establishments (Registration and Regulation) Act was introduced in 2018 in line with the national Act, various organisations, including the Kerala Private Hospital Association, moved the court against it. Last year, the Kerala High Court dismissed the petition, following which the state introduced some amendments, providing relief for small hospitals. However, strict implementation of the Act is still due, owing to the protest from private hospitals. As per the Act, patients must be provided with a complete treatment report along with all supporting documents. Hospitals are required to publish the cost of their services, including treatment packages and procedure charges, on their websites, and display the same on notice boards in both English and Malayalam. Patients must also be issued bills containing a detailed breakdown of all expenses incurred. But this is far from sufficient, according to Dr Ekbal. “Kerala has not fixed any treatment guidelines or expenses. Even the Clinical Establishment Act only demands to display the expenses. Insurance companies have fixed reimbursement rates for certain procedures, but there is no comparable standardisation of costs across hospitals. While treatment guidelines exist, there is no effective mechanism to monitor it,” he said.Talking to TNM, the new state Health Minister K Muraleedharan said that priority will be given to enhance the facilities in government hospitals, as it would be practically impossible for the state’s healthcare machinery to compete with the PE-backed hospitals. “I have requested such firms to contribute their corporate social responsibility funds for the upliftment of government hospitals in the region,” he said, adding, “Let the rich use such facilities. We will focus on improving the healthcare facilities of the poor.”Muraleedharan also said that he will look into the legal possibilities of establishing a mechanism to monitor the functioning of PE-backed hospitals to ensure that they don’t violate any norms.This report was <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/kerala/who-owns-your-hospitals-private-equitys-growing-grip-on-keralas-healthcare">republished</a></ins> from The News Minute as part of The News Minute-Newslaundry alliance.

2026/7/4

Hafta 596: On Umar Khalid, UAPA, and judicial accountability

The podcast where we discuss the week’s news. <figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-16/egtq656l/HAFTA-NEW.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="New Hafta cartoon featuring cutouts of Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal, and Abhinandan Sekhri. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>This week on Hafta, Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal, Anand Vardhan and Rinchen Norbu are joined by historian Ramachandra Guha.   The discussion with historian Ramachandra Guha began with the continued incarceration of Umar Khalid and Sharjeel Imam, both of whom have spent nearly six years in jail without trial. Using Khalid’s recently published academic work as a starting point, the conversation expanded into a wider examination of justice, the judiciary, policing, dissent, and the health of Indian democracy.Guha described the current moment as darker than some earlier phases of Indian history: “The whole judicial process today – beginning with the police, beginning with the FIRs, beginning with the lower courts, going right up – we don’t know whether their minds are clouded by majoritarian communal sentiment.” He argued that laws like UAPA have transformed pre-trial detention into a tool that can wreck a bright scholar’s career: “This is a victim of a harsh, completely anti-democratic law… my name is Ramachandra Guha and his name is Umar Khalid — that has to do something with the fact that I’m speaking to you here as a free man and writing my books while he’s incarcerated.”Manisha noted that Khalid's case has unfolded alongside a public culture that increasingly demonises students, researchers and universities. She argued that discussing the quality of Khalid's scholarship was important because public discourse had reduced higher education to caricature and suspicion. Raman pointed to a contradiction in the treatment of UAPA cases. Referring to Supreme Court precedents that recognised prolonged incarceration as grounds for bail, he said: “This is a trial-less conviction that Umar Khalid and others are facing.”Rinchen was even more direct in his criticism of the judiciary. Drawing from Hansal Mehta’s film Shahid, he questioned whether the justice system was still living up to its promise. “Nearly six years in jail without trial is an abomination in a democracy, whichever way you slice it,” he said, arguing that responsibility ultimately rests with the courts, from the trial court to the Supreme Court.The panel then discussed the rise of vigilante groups and their relationship with police and political actors. Rinchen noted that the communalisation of policing in India is not a wholly new phenomenon but has intensified; furthermore, the spread and emboldening of vigilante groups like the Bajrang Dal in the last decade have created a harder-to-reverse dynamic. Raman summarised the practical effect: “Bajrang Dal and the police – they are hand in glove.”Pivoting to the current political landscape, Guha reflected on why mass nonviolent protests are harder to build today: tighter restrictions on public assembly, judicially sanctioned limits on protest spaces, and what he called the distracting effects of smartphones and social media. “The state does not want protest… and the courts have been complicit in this,” he said. All this and more.<iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ec3d9497cef7479d2ef4798/6a48a4d004fac73b24046402" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/zlV8UuQbD24" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlV8UuQbD24" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>Hafta letters: <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/07/04/hafta-letters-wrong-about-cjp-anands-rahul-gandhi-take-and-viewers-forming-their-own-opinions-2">Wrong about CJP, Anand’s Rahul Gandhi take and viewers forming their own opinions</a></ins>If you want to write to Hafta, <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/podcast-letters">click here</a></ins>. Click <ins><a href="http://newslaundry.com/sena">here</a></ins> to contribute to our Sena project. Check out the<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/store?routeName=NlStore"> Newslaundry store</a></ins> and flaunt your love for independent media. Download the<ins><a href="http://www.newslaundry.com/download-app"> Newslaundry app</a></ins>. Song: <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=copZrmeUCQI&list=RDcopZrmeUCQI&start_radio=1"> </a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=copZrmeUCQI&list=RDcopZrmeUCQI&start_radio=1">Haal Chaal Thik Thak Hai</a></ins>Timecodes00:00:00 - Introductions and announcements00:04:34  - Headlines00:08:56  – Umar Khalid, UAPA, and Judicial Accountability00:59:43 – Guha’s recommendation01:19:49   - Letters 01:35:36 - RecommendationsReferences<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/book-club">NL -TNM Book Club registration</a></ins><ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/mmmk">NL -TNM Joint Subscription</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/podcasts/south-central">South Central</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/30/dubious-mous-paper-investors-the-art-of-adding-zeroes-to-ups-investment-story">Dubious MoUs, paper investors: The art of adding zeroes to UP’s investment story</a></ins> <ins><a href="https://www.amazon.in/FRACTURED-COMMUNITIES-Umar-Khalid/dp/9353456363/ref=asc_df_9353456363?mcid=2c524ff3a3d63bc4978d82ba8d2f8112&tag=googleshopdes-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=709881838753&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10707747694706728504&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9061645&hvtargid=pla-2487000445096&psc=1&hvocijid=10707747694706728504-9353456363-&hvexpln=0&gad_source=1">FRACTURED COMMUNITIES</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/07/03/is-there-any-hope-for-gaza-an-indian-judges-reality-check-on-israel-justice-and-us">Is there any hope for Gaza? An Indian judge’s reality check on Israel, justice, and us</a></ins>RecommendationsManisha<ins><a href="https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2026/06/24/why-big-ai-labs-are-hiring-so-many-philosophers">Why big AI labs are hiring so many philosophers</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/news/ng-interactive/2026/jun/30/theres-this-deep-mystery-of-what-actually-is-this-thing-the-philosopher-inside-google-deepmind">There’s this deep mystery of what, actually, is this thing?’: the philosopher inside Google DeepMind AI</a></ins>Rinchen<ins><a href="https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/the-right-to-a-fair-trial-at-the-crossroads/article71175093.ece">The right to a fair trial at the crossroads</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/rogue-host-the-world-cup-cannot-be-decoupled-from-its-larger-context-prnt/cid/2167556">Rogue host</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.espn.com/soccer/match/_/gameId/760505/england-mexico">FIFA World Cup: Mexico vs England</a></ins> Anand Vardhan <ins><a href="https://www.amazon.in/s?k=morrison+boyd+organic+chemistry&adgrpid=55731091421&gad_source=1&hvadid=749709682698&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9061645&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=3104059017740741876--&hvqmt=b&hvrand=3104059017740741876&hvtargid=kwd-299562044042&hydadcr=23581_2349238&mcid=2bc529bc0ae43e14ab12651f999d784f&tag=googinhydr1-21&ref=pd_sl_24nd2v3p9x_b">Morrison Boyd books</a></ins>Raman Kirpal <ins><a href="https://indianexpress.com/article/books-and-literature/umar-khalid-fractured-communities-adivasi-history-review-10760053/">How Umar Khalid’s new book rewrites the history of Adivasi politics and agency</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=rafa+docuemntary+on+netflic&oq=rafa+docuemntary+on+netflic&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQABgNGIAEMggIAhAAGBYYHjIICAMQABgWGB4yCAgEEAAYFhgeMggIBRAAGBYYHjIICAYQABgWGB4yCAgHEAAYFhgeMggICBAAGBYYHjIICAkQABgWGB7SAQg1ODY5ajBqNKgCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#:~:text=Web%20results-,Watch%20Rafa%20%7C%20Netflix%20Official%20Site,https%3A//www.netflix.com%20%E2%80%BA%20title,-Rafael%20Nadal%20opens">Rafa</a></ins><ins><a href="https://indianexpress.com/article/long-reads/form-football-team-immigrant-story-10758996/">What it takes to form a football team: An immigrant story</a></ins>Ramchandra Guha<ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvfJ-G0fPtA&list=RDuvfJ-G0fPtA&start_radio=1">Ustad Sharafat Hussain Khan</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKfYlf_ophw&list=RDaKfYlf_ophw&start_radio=1">Malini Rajurkar</a></ins>Check out <ins><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VCmV6yr5t1LHE77Xp5-cYhWrQSkhW3A8nix310MvRQU/edit?usp=sharing">previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters</a>. </ins>Produced by Amit Pandey with production assistance from Sourav. Sound by Anil Kumar.Hafta 596Manisha: [00:00:00] This is a News Laundry podcast and you're listening to NL HaftaManisha: Angrez apna lagaan aur News Laundry apna hafta kabhi nahi chhodte. I'm your host for this week, Manisha Pandey, as Abhinandan is out away for some work. We have Ramchandra Guha joining us for what I think would be a very incisive podcast. In-house, we have Raman sir. Welcome. Raman: Hi. Manisha: Lots of traffic you braved and came to the office.Manisha: Yes. Anand Vardhan, hi. Raman: Hello. Manisha: And Rinchin, our newest addition. Hi. And I think a letter says that we interrupt you too much. So now we'll not interrupt you at all. Oh, Rinchen: it did? Manisha: Yes, somebody's written in and said that you very ill-behaved of Abhinandan and Manisha. Uh, even though I don't think we interrupted you.Rinchen: Yeah, I, I don't know. I mean- Manisha: We don't feel so ... it sounds like. Yeah. But this podcast you shall speak uninterrupted. So we have [00:01:00] Ram Guha joining us, like I said. In a bit before that, a couple of announcements. Our book club is live. The first event is on Sunday, as you guys know. If you wanna join us live online, all you need to do is register through the link in the show notes, and once you're signed up, all the details will be delivered straight to your inbox.Manisha: So come reflect, exchange your ideas with us, 5th July, 6:30 PM at Depot 48 in New Delhi. We shall see you there We have a really amazing investigation right now, uh, that we've done. It's part of a series where we want to investigate, uh, the boasts that various governments make on the back of MOUs. So every year we hear, but I don't know, 4,000 crore, 8,000 crore- 8,000 croreManisha: MOUs sign holding. Used to be Raman: 33,000- Manisha: Yeah ... Raman: crore. Manisha: Yeah. Uh, this one is... So it's just something that governments advertise and flash, and media is more than happy to pick it up as a headline. But what really happens to these [00:02:00] MOUs, even though they are paper promises, but, uh, there are cases where work has started, but has work really started?Manisha: So Basant has done an investigation on, uh, UP, the 2023 Investor Summit that had some crazy figures. And he's looked up, uh, at some of the MOUs that were signed. One of them was signed by a guy who doesn't even have a corporate record. He's apparently signed from his rented flat in Ghaziabad, and was also wanted by the police for not paying his bills.Manisha: Not wanted. Well, ITC Maurya filed an FIR against him because he had not paid his bills, but he's signing some crores, lakhs and crores of MOUs with the Uttar Pradesh government. Do check that story out. It's part of a series. If you have any tips for us from any other states on MOUs and investments, do write in to us.Manisha: You can write it straight to me at manisha@newslaundry.com with your stories and ideas and tips. Last but not the least, do not forget to subscribe to News Laundry. It's your... Salaries are [00:03:00] in. It's the first week. Yeah. It's payday, payday. So please put your salary to good use. Subscribe to News Laundry. Get an NL anti-NM subscription.Manisha: Better than buying makeup in Tira or Nykaa, which also have payday sales. I know that because I, I do buy stuff from them . But please subscribe to News Laundry. Make good use of your salary. And if you're not salaried, then please enjoy our free content. We have a lot of stuff that's free also on our website, videos, we have reports, we have podcasts, interviews, so check that out and support us.Manisha: And if you want to listen to another weekly podcast and you're not yet tuning into South Central by our partners at The News Minute, then you must begin this habit right away. Uh, this week Dhanya and her team are gonna be discussing SIR with Raj Gopal, who was former editor at The Telegraph. Some alarming story about his passport, uh- RenewedManisha: you know, not being renewed- Yeah ... because he [00:04:00] was not in the SIR. He's got an adverse report. Rinchen: Yeah. Manisha: And another journalist from there has had a similar complaint. And I know personally that actually passport renewal, some people have been asked whether they're on the rolls or not. So everyone's just doing whatever they want now.Manisha: Yeah. Even though it makes no sense, you don't have to be on the rolls to Rinchen: Yeah, it's a pretty, it's a pretty absurd link that they're, they're trying to establish here Manisha: So do tune into South Central, uh, and they're also gonna discuss the growing role of private equity investments in Kerala's healthcare sector.Manisha: It's a very nice podcast. I listen to it every week, so should you. With that, let's get into the headlines of the week, Rinjan. Rinchen: Here are the headlines of-- for the week. Uh, the Union government has dismissed media reports claiming it told the Supreme Court that the 20% ethanol blended petrol program is still an ongoing experiment whose results will be only be known next year.Rinchen: The center said the reports misrepresented, uh, the submissions made by Attorney General R. Venkatramani before the court. The law minister cl- law [00:05:00] ministry clarified that at no stage did the government describe the ethanol blended petrol program as an experiment. 23 opposition parties have written to Chief Justice Suryakant expressing concerns over the SIR of electoral rolls.Rinchen: The move was decided at an India blog meeting on June 8th. More than 100 prominent citizens from India and Pakistan have urged the two governments to resume dialogue on Jammu and Kashmir, restore full diplomatic ties, and restart normal visa services. The appeal comes amid strained relations following the 2025 Pahalgam terror attack, after which both countries suspended key visa arrangements.Rinchen: The Ayodhya Bar Association has said none of its members will represent the accused in the alleged Ram Temple donation embezzlement case, warning of a 5 lakh fine for those who do Meanwhile, a Muslim judge in Madhya Pradesh's Narmadapuram district has received death threats and communal abuse after sentencing seven men to life imprisonment in a twenty twenty-two assault case involving a truck driver accused of cattle smuggling.Rinchen: [00:06:00] Former Telegraph editor R. Rajagopal has said his name was deleted from West Bengal's voter rolls during the special intensive revision exercise, allegedly because neither his nor his father's name could be found in the twenty-- uh, in the two thousand and two electoral rolls. The Tamil Nadu government has approached the Supreme Court against a Madras High Court order that imposed a blanket ban on the slaughter of cows and calves in the state.Rinchen: Congress's K.C. Venugopal has moved a breach of privilege notice against Defense Minister Rajnath Singh, accusing him of misleading the Lok Sabha during a July twenty twenty-five debate by claiming no Indian soldiers were killed during Operation Sindoor. At least twenty-nine houses were torched in separate incidents in Kuki and Tangkhul Naga villages near the India-Myanmar border in Manipur on Wednesday.Rinchen: Officials said unidentified persons set fire to fifteen houses in the evacuated Kuki village of Phaimov in Kamjong District. No casualties were reported. The Union government has asked WhatsApp to pause the rollout of [00:07:00] its new username feature, which would let users connect without sharing phone numbers, citing risks of impersonation, phishing, and online fraud.Rinchen: TMC MP Mahua Moitra faced an aggressive protest at a local transit party office in a Krishna Nagar constituency in West Bengal's Nadia District. A mob gathered outside the building and pelted eggs, mud, and stones, with some hitting the structure and Moitra herself. This is the funniest headline, I think, of the week, which is social media was abuzz after spelling mistakes spotted in a National Honor award to PM Modi by Seychelles sparked questions about the document's authenticity.Manisha: Yeah. Rinchen: Responding to the controversy, the island nation said the document had not been approved and should not have been circulated Manisha: And it went right, like the BJP put it first up- Yeah ... I think, with Republic of officials misspelled. Rinchen: Yeah. Manisha: The award itself was just hurriedly conjured up three days before the prime minister visited the Rinchen: country.Rinchen: Typogara- typo- typographical errors, spelling errors, including on the official seal, so it was [00:08:00] just- Manisha: Hmm ... Rinchen: hilarious. India and Japan agreed to dep- deepen cooperation in artificial intelligence, energy resilience, and economic security. The agreements were signed after PM Modi met his Japanese counterpart, Fumio Kishida, in New Delhi.Rinchen: Kishida said stronger bilateral cooperation was increasingly important amid a turbulent global landscape. More than 1,300 excess deaths have been recorded across Europe since June 21 due to extreme heat, according to the World Health Organization. France accounted for about 1,000 of the deaths, most involving people over 65.Manisha: Great. With that, we have Ram Guha in the house. Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, absolutely. Great. So we have you, uh, w- you know, we wanted to discuss this week the idea of justice on the back of several headlines. One, of course, Umar Khalid and Sharjeel Imam continue to be in jail without a trial.Manisha: It's been about six years now. Uh, there's the headline of the, uh, judge [00:09:00] in Madhya Pradesh who was abused, viciously trolled simply for doing her job, which is convicting, uh, men in a case involving, uh, cattle smuggling, alleged cattle smuggling. Gau Rakshaks who went on a rampage, as they always do. She did her job, and after that she suffered threats, communal abuse.Manisha: And just recently we've had the Bombay High Court remark that, uh, you do- we don't want slaves as citizens. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with protesting, uh, citizens. Hmm. And what are, what sort of a message are we giving? So I wanna begin with you, Ram. Uh, you've written the foreword for Umar Khalid's book, and you've also written a lovely review for it in The Scroll, which goes into the merits of the thesis, his work.Manisha: But obviously, this is special to you. It's beyond a scholar's work. It is also about what that scholar has been put through over the last six years. Ramachandra Guha: Yes, uh, Manisha. You know, um, as I say in my forward, uh, to Umar Khalid's book, I have never met him. Uh, [00:10:00] I have, uh, of course, uh, heard of his case and, uh, the shocking delay in granting him bail.Ramachandra Guha: I've heard the speeches he gave, which to my mind are actually exhortations to nonviolence. Hmm. But I approached his work as a fellow historian, and assessing it as a fellow historian, I should say, first of all, this is a- History has many different specialties, but Umar Khaleed's work lies at the intersection of two branches of history on which I have spent much of my working life.Ramachandra Guha: One is environmental history. Yes. The relationship of peasants and pastoralists and Adivasis to forests and water and so on. And the other is social history under colonialism. How did oppressed communities react to harsh colonial era policies? And I have written on that same, those same themes in Uttarakhand, now whereas Umar has written in Jharkhand.Ramachandra Guha: Mm. So I have a particular interest in his work, and I found it [00:11:00] extraordinarily rich and sophisticated, very rigorously researched, dozens of rare archives mined, very carefully put together. Uh, uh, willing is to look outside his discipline. You know, all of you in the studio- Mm ... have gone through the, uh, Indian university system where you are streamlined and ghettoized.Ramachandra Guha: HistoryRamachandra Guha: And I said, you know, a book of that kind would have appeared, uh, a thesis of that kind would have, have appeared as a book a year or so after it was approved by the examiners. Hmm. And it would be the beginning of, um, a career in which this brilliant, gifted scholar would write more books. Hmm. You know, like I have done, or the anthropologist Nandini Sundar has done, or the environmental historian [00:12:00] Mahesh Rangarajan has done.Ramachandra Guha: All people who have worked in similar fields much older than Umar- Raman: Hmm ... Ramachandra Guha: but whom, uh, for, partly for reasons of accident, partly for reasons of prejudice, have been left free to do our work. Manisha: Hmm. Ramachandra Guha: Whereas Umar, you know, uh, has been, uh, is a victim of a harsh, completely anti-democratic law. And, uh, though of course to summarize, probably the fact that I, as I end, end my piece, the fact that, uh, my name is Ramachandra Guha and his name is Umar Khalid- HmmRamachandra Guha: has to do something with the fact that I'm speaking to you, you here as a free man and writing my books while he's incarcerated. One last thing I'd say. Apart from his doctoral thesis, which is now happily published as a book called Fractured Communities, available in all the bookshops, and I urge your viewers to, uh, uh, buy it.Ramachandra Guha: There's also a very moving collection called Umar Khalid and His World, which contains essays by and about Umar Khalid. Hmm. [00:13:00] And again, you see a person of great le- intelligence, profound compassion, deep humanity, and an absolute commitment to the ideals of the Indian Republic. Uh, now of course, he's not alone.Ramachandra Guha: No. There are other people like him. You know, some of the people in the Bhima Koregaon case, other people in- Yeah ... the Northeast and in Kashmir, who have been incarcerated for years and years under an act, uh, which has absolutely no place, uh, i- in a democracy. And it's deeply dismaying that the Supreme Court has not granted these people bail.Ramachandra Guha: I hope they will make amends soon. It's even more dismaying they've not struck it down, you know? Hmm. Any responsible Supreme Court would have declared UAPA unconstitutional. So that's the context in which I wrote about Umar Khalid, both as a scholar and as a citizen. Manisha: I think this is very important to remember, and it's important to talk about also, you know, uh, Ram, talking about the thesis, how rich it is, what it brings, because there's also a public discourse, and we've seen that since 2016 JNU sedition [00:14:00] case, that why are students doing PhD?Manisha: They're wasting taxpayers' money. Yeah. What are they studying? They're so old. They're in their 30s. Why are they in their universities? So you've had this public culture of debate. I mean, I wouldn't call it debate, but debased public you know, uh, culture on just kind of demonizing people who are studying or, you know, pursuing PhDs or higher studies.Manisha: Ram, sir, I want to come to you. We've reported so much on the bail case, but there is also this general impunity... I mean, there is of course Umar Khalid's case, but- On the other side, you see there is a sharp contrast in how, you know, he's convicted... I mean, he's not convicted, but he's charged for UAPA, which is a terror charge.Manisha: And you have-- we have reported on this, uh, group called Mrityu Dal, which is translates to Death Squad. These are Gau Rakshaks that roam free in Haryana. Pinky Chaudhary, one of the guys, he's had 30 [00:15:00] FIRs against him, and he gets out on bail. And, uh, y- his followers actually say, "Aaj FIR, kal bail, phir wahi khel."Manisha: Mm. Meaning that this is his routine. There'll be an FIR, then there'll be bail, and then he'll be back to threatening people. And you see the police's, uh, behavior, and that is completely flipped. So we've always been a bit cynical when it comes to justice in India, you know, tareekh pe tareekh and slowness and all that.Manisha: But do you, as a journalist who's covered all these things for so long, do you see, like, a marked difference in how the police and the judiciary now behaves with, say, a Hindu Raksha Dal types versus an Umar Khalid who's, like Ram said, was simply talking about, you know, uh, satyagraha in that sense? Raman: Uh, see, uh, in Delhi riots, uh, someone who had, uh, issued an open threat, uh, is a minister right now in Delhi government.Rinchen: Mm. Yeah. Raman: Okay, and, and, and the... I mean, you can just see the behavior he had, and it is all [00:16:00] on the video. And whereas in case of Umar Khalid, there are few messages given on the WhatsApp, and he has been called the chief architect of Delhi riots. Ramachandra Guha: Mm. Raman: And if you, uh, even if you go deeper into what he has written over there, even they...Raman: It doesn't give any connection to Delhi riots whatsoever. So, so, so calling him chief architect and the Supreme Court, uh, is, uh, you know, in its order, and I'll just read it. Uh, see they, they, they say that in their ruling that a delay in trial does not act as a trump card to bypass statutory safeguards if the gravity of the allegations being a mastermind is sufficiently high.Manisha: Yeah. Raman: Now, now, uh, you do not have physical presence of Umar Khalid at any of the spots- Yeah ... where the Delhi riots happened. [00:17:00] Okay? And, and, and there is no consistency even in the messages that he has given over the, uh, WhatsApp group, and they're not just one WhatsApp group. There are many- Mm ... WhatsApp groups.Raman: So, so, so this is completely, uh... I mean, and, and I'll show you the contradiction in judicial, uh, treatment. There was K.A. Najim precedent where in the K.A. Najim- Ramachandra Guha: Yeah ... Raman: precedent, they, the court ruled that even though UAPA Section 43(5) strictly restricts bail, constitutional courts can override this statutory bar if an accused faces prolonged incarceration without trial.Raman: So this is a trial-less- Ramachandra Guha: Yeah ... Raman: conviction that Umar Khalid and others are facing, you know, in this Delhi riot case. And second thing is- Especially, uh, during our coverage of Omar Khalid, in fact, I was, uh, I wanted to, uh, you know, cover it from one, uh, [00:18:00] hearing to another. So we... I see some kind of stubbornness.Raman: If you see, uh, you know, the case came up in the lower court, then, uh, you know, the upper lower court, then the high court, then it goes to Supreme Court. So if you see the entire journey, even, uh, the hearings that have happened, there is some kind of stubbornness, uh, you know, uh, um, uh, o- of the judiciary that in this case, the decision...Raman: I mean, it looks that the decision is likely to be, uh, you know, non-grant of bail to, uh, to, uh, Omar Khalid. So in Supreme Court, when we have such a liberal view taken on UAPA in the past, we had some hope, but that also went away, and they have gone against their own precedent, uh, judgment. Manisha: Actually, you're very right.Manisha: The sense that there's some sort of a stubbornness- Mm ... does come across as, I mean, as just ordinary citizens witnessing the, you know, bail hearings. Rinchin, we were just talking about this [00:19:00] movie Shahid before- Yeah. Yeah ... uh, we began shooting, which is a Hansal Mehta film based on the life of the human rights lawyer, uh, Shahid Azmi, who was killed in 2010.Manisha: Mm. And he was basically known for picking up these terror cases. Yeah. Fighting for people who were always, in many cases, wrongly accused. Raman: Yeah. Manisha: So tell, tell us about why we were talking about that. Yeah. And this sense of The sense of despondency that one feels- Rinchen: Yeah ... Manisha: when you look at this case. Rinchen: See, ultimately, Umar Khalid and Sharjeel Imam, and let's not forget Sharjeel Imam.Rinchen: I think his name unfortunately gets erased from this con- these conversations. Now, they have spent nearly six years in jail without trial. That's an abomination in a democracy, whichever way you slice it. And there's only one institution to blame here, which is the Indian judiciary, from the trial courts to the Supreme Court.Rinchen: Now, in the, the... While we were, uh, in the movie Shahid, uh, uh, there is a line by KK Menon's character. I think this is after, uh, [00:20:00] Shahid, I think he was earlier charged in some te- random, in a terror case, and then he was released, uh, by the court. And KK Menon character says, after the c- court pronounces his judgment, he says,Rinchen: "Indian judiciary, it works." Raman: Hmm. Rinchen: The more I think about that line in the context of Umar Khalid and Sharjeel Imam, the less I believe it. So, that is the context to what we were discussing earlier. Mm-hmm. And to, uh, Ramansar's point about the Najeeb ca- It's very interesting. Just this week, at an event in Sweden, uh, Chief Justice of India, Suryakanth, uh, lauded the court's verdict in the Najeeb case- YeahRinchen: uh, which held that prolonged incarceration and delays in trial were justifiable grounds for granting bail. Hmm. Now, I'll quote what he says here. Uh, "In K. Najeeb, the Supreme Court held that regardless of the statutory embargo created against the grant of bail to a person suspected to be involved in activities [00:21:00] prohibited under the UAPA, the Supreme Court retains the power to grant bail where prolonged incarceration has become so excessive as to infringe upon the accused's fundamental right to speedy trial under Article 21 of the Constitution."Rinchen: I mean, here, here he's giving bhashans in Sweden saying that, you know, uh, this is look, look, look, look, look at us, look how we've upheld liberty. And when, when the actual, when the actual case comes to his court, I don't know whether he was hearing that particular case, but I'm sure, I mean, like it's, it's... I just don't understand it.Manisha: Anand, waqt lagta hai lekin ho jata hai. Indian judiciary, it works. Is that a correct assessment to your mind? I think you'll be less cynical than most of us on this. Anand: There are two things to examine. There are a lot of problems with Indian judiciary, and I think the courts don't see in their public reasoning the case as it is.Anand: Uh, I think two layers, the immediate, uh, [00:22:00] Umar Khalid and other cases, and the long view of history. Of s- moving from the immediate. So what, what, what is the specific section under which he is being denied bail? So that is, uh, Section 43D subsection 5 of UAPA, which says that if the accusations are prima facie, s- it seem to be true, prima facie they are true, the bail may be denied.Anand: The bail may be... So there i- just as in general language, in legal language also, may and shall ha- has difference. Shall means it will be denied. May gives a lot of discretion to the judge that, uh, studying the material produced before him, whether him, him or her, whatever. So, uh, him can deny that bail. So prima facie, [00:23:00] whatever Delhi Police has produced, the judge from the lo- uh, lower court to the Supreme Court, uh, they have been convinced that, uh, they, there is something for the trial to begin.Anand: But trial has not, meaningful trial has not yet begin, uh, begun. So I think, uh, the most, uh, say, draconian part of UAPA is this, that the, in the pretrial phase, you can do lot of damage. And that i- n- that is the most worrying part of UAPA Act. Uh, and that has been e- uh, I would not say exploited, but yes, from prosecution side, you look for strategies.Anand: So it has been exploited by Delhi Police. Ramachandra Guha: Hmm. Anand: Hmm. Uh, mm, so that is one, uh, immediate part. Uh, second part is, uh, I, what to, what Mr. Guha was saying that why did not the court, uh, [00:24:00] s- strike down such draconian laws? And we have a host of such laws. Yes. We had TADA earlier, POTA was withdrawn. Yes. And then, um, many such laws.Anand: So I think, uh- Uh, i-if you go to Article 21, it simply states that, uh, no person shall be denied life and liberty except by, uh, the procedure established by law, and that is the catch. Yeah. In, uh, 1950 in A.K. Gopalan versus s-State of Madras, when, when there was m- Madras was the presidency and the state, uh, later it was Tamil Nadu, and di- it was divided.Anand: Karn- Mysore and other states came out of it. So l- that is the different thing. But in So in that, uh, case, I've be- I, I, I, I'm, uh, the journey, and this is very important. This is, uh, very important for, uh, e-examining such laws. Uh, [00:25:00] against the detention of, uh, A.K. Gopalan, the q- uh, matter was there, and the Supreme Court said, no, ev-uh, even if it is not s- uh, fair, the...Anand: If the law says that the detens- detention is okay, then procedure established by law, he can be deprived of his liberty. But that was changed in, and, uh, and, uh, procedure dif- uh, established by law is different from the due process of law, which is the American concept. But in 1978, in the famous, uh, Maneka Gandhi passport impounding case, the Supreme Court said that it is not enough that the pro- uh, procedure established by law, but that law should be fair- HmmAnand: and that law should be reasonable and just. Manisha: Hmm. Anand: So, uh, from a, a very different route, uh, the due process was brought in. Now, uh, in all these cases, the procedure [00:26:00] established by law, uh, part is there, but that law has to be fair and reasonable, and that could be challenged. That, uh... And why UAPA, uh, was given means, uh, legal status, a statutory status, that is one thing.Anand: Why under Article 13, the judicial review, uh, under the judicial review, a law can be struck down if it does not meet the s- constitutional standards. So, uh, under Article 13, law- uh, some laws have been struck down. So, uh, the, this class, the central tension here is between the constitutional gu- guarantee of liberty and the statutory requirements of certain laws.Manisha: Hmm. Anand: So this is the central tension here. And what the courts sometimes do, and that is one of the primary objectives of judicial process, they go for balancing of interests. So [00:27:00] if a state is seeking some, uh, detention and some... They try to accommodate a state's interests also- Hmm ... and sometimes individual.Anand: So sometimes this balancing of interest works well, but sometimes you have to take a very clear stand. No, no balancing of interests. Yeah. So it is a clear cut to black and white case. So, yes. Manisha: So I want to come to Ram. We're recording this, uh, uh, show actually at a time where there's another, uh, set of FIRs and case being built up against teachers and journalists and activists.Manisha: for the Noida protest. So the Noida protest, you know, went violent. There were two days of sort of arson, and after that the police, uh, went, arrested some 300 people. Hmm. And apart from the arson, there is now also a case against teachers, activists, for the conspiracy. Hmm. The same kind of method that we see with Delhi Police, and some of the things that I've read from the charge sheet, we'll have a [00:28:00] story on that soon up, is again, that, you know, has been reading Marx for a long time.Manisha: Hmm. Known to have views. So you know, books, what you're reading- Uh ... what you're thinking. Rinchen: Accused of Marxist ideology. Manisha: Yeah. It's That's actually part of the charge sheet. Rinchen: That's actually part Manisha: Accused of Marxist ideology. And can you imagine? So you know, I wanna come to you with, uh, you can all chip in on whatever you'd want to from what we've discussed, but one specific question I have for you.Manisha: It's slightly long, so then take your time to answer. When you consume daily news as a journalist, there's a lot of despondency that one tends to feel because there's a relentless bombardment of, you know, arrests here, this thought crime punished for this reason. You know, not, students being jailed, no bail being denied.Manisha: On the other hand, you have like Gorakshak Dals who have complete impunity. Yeah. They're issuing threats, death threats on Instagram, and there's no, nothing that the police does. So you tend to feel very despondent as a journalist. But as a historian, [00:29:00] one tends... I mean, I believe that, you know, you've, there's so much that you've studied and there's so much of this country that you know, that there must be this feeling that, okay, this is not new.Manisha: Yeah. That, you know, this, this has happened before. So do you feel more, let's say, like less despondent than us journalists because you, you have a long view of the nation? Or are you as despondent as us? Well, I guess what I'm trying to get at is, is this new? Is this new what we are seeing right now? Ramachandra Guha: So I will answer your question, Manisha.Ramachandra Guha: But first, let me come to the question of, uh, somebody being, uh, arrested and not given bail because they allegedly subscribe to Marxist ideology. Now, there are three parties in India. Uh, there are actually more than three, but three well-known ones which subscribe to Marxist ideology and fight elections.Ramachandra Guha: There's the Communist Party of India, there's the Communist Party of India Marxist, and there's the Communist, Communist Party of India Marxist-Leninist. Yes. So, you know, by this logic, [00:30:00] uh, Mr. John Britto should be in jail. Yeah. You know, Pinarayi Vijayan should be in jail. You know, Dipankar Bhattacharya should be in jail.Ramachandra Guha: Every member of these three parties who fight Democrat- democratic elections should be in jail. So this is a extraordinary, extraordinarily extra-legal definition. You can say, uh, so and so has prescribed violence or committed violence. Mm. Or violated or breached such and such provision of, uh, you know, the Indian Penal Code.Ramachandra Guha: And then you can, you know, make these charges. So it's absolutely farcical, subscribe to Marxist ideology. Manisha: Yeah. Ramachandra Guha: Now, uh, on your question, uh, is this new? Uh, uh, has, have there been precedents in the past? There have been precedents in the past, and it is new. I'll try and explain. The Supreme Court, uh, in the time of Nehru was conservative.Ramachandra Guha: It was not activist. So Nehru was prime minister from 1947 to 1964. The Supreme Court in the time [00:31:00] of Indira Gandhi was submissive, you know, notoriously, uh, in the case of the emergency and the ADM Jabalpur case, but not just that. You know, there was the supersession of judges so that Indira Gandhi could have a loyal chief justice in, in office and so on.Ramachandra Guha: So the Supreme Court was, you could say, tacitly, uh, supporting the state. It was what Gautam Bhatia describes as an executive court. Hmm. Now, today the courts, uh, ha- are also... They are submissive, they are docile, they're hesitant to challenge the state on major issues. Uh, but they also are, uh, uh, if not explicitly, implicitly majoritarian.Ramachandra Guha: The, the courts in Indira Gandhi's time did not say Hindus are superior citizens to Muslims, either directly or indirectly. The whole judicial process today, beginning with the police, beginning with the FIRs, beginning with the lower courts, going right up, we don't know, you know, whether their minds [00:32:00] are clouded by majoritarian communal sentiment.Ramachandra Guha: You know, you talk about the Gau Rakshaks. Hmm. But there are so many other examples. You know, there's a communal riot, only the Muslims are holed up. You know, vigilantes attack the gym owner in, in our home state, Uttarakhand, um, Deepak, and his FIR is filed against him. Hmm. So I think this is where the situation is darker.Ramachandra Guha: Now, one last thing I'd say. When the Supreme Court succumbed under Indira Gandhi, people were despondent. Raman: Hmm. Ramachandra Guha: However, in the '80s and '90s, it recovered some of its spine, some of its respect and for the Constitution, some of its desire to hon-honor justice, freedom, and so on. Not all of it. Uh, but now I think the danger is it is an executive court, and it is occasionally, not just the Supreme Court, the entire judiciary from top to bottom- HmmRamachandra Guha: is an executive court more loyal to the king, and also cannot stand for The rights of minorities. Anand: Hmm. Ramachandra Guha: One [00:33:00] example, I mean, you have people on your panel who know the legal system much better than I do. But so far as I've studied it, the Constitutional Amendment Act, uh, you know, this, uh, is absolutely unconstitutional.Ramachandra Guha: To say Muslims cannot be granted refuge, but people of every other religion can, is completely violative of the principle of equal rights for all Indians. Now, the Supreme Court hasn't heard the case for what- Yeah ... what is it now, seven years. Now, is it too scared to strike it down? Uh, is it too embarrassed to uphold it?Ramachandra Guha: Because if it was to uphold it, then the world over, the reput- the reputation, international reputation of the Supreme Court is at, the Indian Supreme Court, is at its lowest ebb since the emergency. You know, now, when it comes to the CAA, my s- my s- thinking is either they're too scared to hear it. song: Hmm. Ramachandra Guha: Uh, and they don't want to uphold it because though they are scared of the government, you know, they know that that's the end of any semblance of respect for [00:34:00] the Indian judicial system.Ramachandra Guha: Now, one last point if I make, may make about the Delhi riots. You know, uh, again, these are things that one can only, uh, allude to but can't, uh, uh, you know, uh, authoritatively demonstrate. But myself, if you look at the chronology of the Delhi riots, Amit Shah became home minister in, uh, what was it? May or June 2019.Ramachandra Guha: Hmm. The Delhi riots happened six or eight months into his, his tenure, and they happened when President Donald Trump was visiting Delhi. Manisha: Yeah. Ramachandra Guha: So it is a matter of great embarrassment, uh, to Narendra Modi and Amit Shah. The Delhi riots happened because of, of the incompetence of the Delhi Police, which could, could not prese- prevent it.Ramachandra Guha: But Mr. Modi and Mr. Shah want scapegoats. They want to vilify others. They want to find a dark conspiracy. They want to say, "It is not our laxity and our incompetence that is responsible for this embarrassment to the country when the American president is visiting, but all these JNU students," you know. But, uh, so I would say, uh, actually, uh, [00:35:00] I am also disappointed.Raman: Hmm. Ramachandra Guha: However, however, however, you know, I, uh, you know, things come in cycles. We may come out of it. Yeah. Raman: You Ramachandra Guha: know, if you see again, if I... You know, because I care deeply about democracy, like all of you. I also care deeply in some ways even more deeply about pluralism, about nourishing religious and linguistic pluralism, and that's partly because I'm a admirer of Mahatma Gandhi.Ramachandra Guha: Hmm. So the communalization of the Hindu mind disturbs me deeply. But there may be signs that this is changing. I mean, it is striking that, uh, uh, the Khokro Janata Party has said, "Enough of Hindu-Muslim stuff." Hmm. Right. Uh, there are reports now coming in from UP where, uh, uh, you know, Hindus in UP are saying, "Where are the jobs?Ramachandra Guha: Why are, why is there, uh, you know, gotala in the Ram temple? Why are there e-exams, ca- scams? Is it all because of Muslims?" Of course not. So but it is, it is a dark... You know, Indian democracy, Indian pluralism, Indian [00:36:00] constitutionalism, the Indian justice system are passing through unhappy times. Um, uh, my long view as a historian is that they may come out of it.Ramachandra Guha: You know? Hmm. I won't say they are likely to come out of it, but it's not as if all options for the restoration of democracy, pluralism, and constitutionalism are closed forever. That never happens. Manisha: One quick question follow-up, and then I'll come to Anand. Uh, you know, your, uh, it re- reminds me something what Sanjay Hegde had said on this podcast that, I think we were discussing Chandrachud's legacy, and he said that coalition governments tend to give us a strong judiciary, and strong governments tend to give us a weak judiciary.Manisha: Would that be a correct kind of assessment? Ramachandra Guha: Yes, but I'll expand it. Manisha: Okay. Hmm. Ramachandra Guha: It's not just the judiciary, Manisha. Manisha: Hmm. Ramachandra Guha: You know, coalition governments, uh, give us more independent and autonomous institutions. Manisha: Hmm. Ramachandra Guha: So the IB, the ED, the income tax, the civil service are not totally at the beck of call of a party with 300 or 400 [00:37:00] MPs.Ramachandra Guha: Coalition governments give us a deeper, deeper play for federalism because all states are represented, not just the states where the ruling party is in power, or not just North India, which has a preponderance of seats. So coalit- coalition governments Also have been the period in which we've had the most robust economic growth.Ramachandra Guha: But I'll leave economics out of it. But certainly institutional integrity, independence, the press. Raman: Hmm. Ramachandra Guha: I mean, you know, you are all journalists. Uh, uh, now I was, uh, I, um, you know, I don't know how old Raman is. He may be about my age or I don't know how old you were in the emergency. I was, I was 17, so I remember the press.Ramachandra Guha: I remember what happened. Seven- I was... Emergency, I was 17 to 19. Raman: Hmm. Ramachandra Guha: Now, uh, after that there was a flourishing of the press. You know, the '80s and '90s, the press was vibrant- Yeah ... articulate. Now it is a few independent, brave, independent websites like yours, you know, and may they flourish. Raman: Hmm. Ramachandra Guha: Uh, but the press is...Ramachandra Guha: And that again, [00:38:00] you remember I've talked about Indira Gandhi, I've talked about, um, Narendra Modi. When Rajiv Gandhi had 400 MPs, he tried to curb the press quite ruthlessly too- Yes ... as I was remembering. Yes. So not just the judiciary, but- And everyone was on the streets protesting ... the vital institutions of democracy, you know, uh, flourish much better under Manisha: coalition governments.Manisha: So Anand, quickly to you on the coalition government thing. Why though then have we seen, uh, such a vilification of coalition governments of late? Like what's the psychology of it? Now there's an understanding that it's instability. If we don't have somebody with a strong mandate coming to power, it means a weak country.Anand: Okay. Manisha: And this is the principle criticism against India also, that you're just a motley bunch of people who will come together, we don't know what you'll do. Anand: Before that, I would just clarify o- one point that, uh, hmm, precedents, people were talking about the precedents. So, uh, for the highest court of the country, uh, the precedents have only referential [00:39:00] value.Anand: It- they are not bound by that, and that should be clear. So, uh, because, uh, in an, uh, suppose, uh, a, a, every Supreme Court decision had to be taken on basis of precedent, there would be no new decision. There would be no evolution of, hmm, jurisprudence. So, uh, under Article 141, the Supreme Court's decision precedent is binding on all lower courts, but not on the Supreme Court.Anand: So, uh, the, uh... So that is one point. In age of AI also it is very important because, um, uh, the Apex Court judges eat precedents for breakfast, and if AI was so, um, um, uh, active, it would just sum up all precedents and give, uh- lawyers every material to do. Means, uh, just because there is some judicial innovation, application of [00:40:00] judicial mind to different cases, we have different...Anand: Uh, now coming to that question- Hmm ... I, uh, as Mr. Guha was saying that like a strong governments, uh, we had this idea of committed bureaucracy, uh, during Indira Gandhi's phase, and did it spill over to the idea of a committed judiciary? To an extent it did. And, uh, um, um, coalition governments, uh, the Disrepute of it in, uh, uh, Indian voters' mind, uh, say in the early years of 21st century, was, uh, because of two things.Anand: One is it was seen as, uh, a kind of a breeding ground for horse trading and immoral politics and, uh, uh, parties, uh, doing different kind of manipulations, switching loyalties and, Manisha: and- Which we are seeing plenty of Anand: now- Plenty- ... Manisha: without coalition. Anand: Without coalition although, but, uh, uh, then in the [00:41:00] formation of government to...Anand: And second was, of course, uh, the later 21st century phrase came policy paralysis. Mm. That because there are too many interests, too m- too many ideologies and, uh, policy, uh, priorities of different parties, there is no clear policy of the government. So, uh, to ... The, I think policy paralysis is not something that worries the average Indian voter.Anand: Maybe the immoral politics or m-m the ayah ram gaya ram kind of politics, that could be a campaign rallying point for a national party is, uh, making a pitch for a strong government at the center, like Congress or BJP. So, uh, that was, uh, one thing. Uh, do, uh ... In '90s, if '90s were, uh, a classic case when coalition [00:42:00] politics was at its peak and, uh, m- uh, Supreme Court's judgments in '90s, yes, we see a more bold judgment.Anand: Well, not bold, bo- I think bold and these all things are, uh, very, uh, subjective. If you like something, then it's bold. If you don't like, then it's a timid judgment. But, uh, I think, uh, m- like some of the cases, like I would say, uh, on the same case, Collegium case, uh, and, uh, the Election Commission's case, uh, when T.N.Anand: Seshan said that it has to be a one-man commission and Supreme Court said, "No, it would be a three-man commission. You, you, you would be the chief." And, uh, then other cases also, um, a lot of, uh, um, cases, uh, something not coming to my, uh, top of my mind, but '90s, yes, to, uh, an extent. Now, the question of committed [00:43:00] bureaucracy, uh, what people forget is that in, uh, if you read, uh, P.N.Anand: Haksar or even, uh, other secretaries, they have tried to, uh- Say that committed bureaucracy is not something that one ha-- uh, the bu-- uh, the bunch of bureaucrats have to be committed to a particular government for all time to come. But government in power- Raman: Mm. ... Anand: the party in po-- power, uh, i-is just an incidental thing, but the government which is.Anand: That is to say that, uh, the autonomous decision-making of the bureaucrats has to be curtailed and, uh, m-m, it was seeking more, hmm, say, hmm, prerogative for the political class, uh, or the political executive. So they have tried to, I think, whether it's a justification of it, but there was that there has to be a continuity in this.Anand: If [00:44:00] even the next government is by other party, the committed bureau- Yeah, Manisha: that's the, that's the Anand: general thinking. Yeah. So, um, so the neutrality of civil service is that. Mm. So, uh, committed judiciary, h-however, if the same, uh, reasoning is applied to the question of, uh, committed judiciary, it becomes problematic because it says that you have to be, uh, compliant to the executive service, which, uh, even here, whichever party comes to power is dangerous.Anand: Is Manisha: dangerous. Anand: Yes, because executive is executive, so yeah. Manisha: I wanna come to Raman sir. The... You know, we were talking about with, as Ram also said, that it is not just about judiciary, but right from the bottom to the top. And police is one big aspect of how it's the first actually interface for an ordinary citizen when it comes to law and order.Manisha: That's the, that's your first. And like I was saying before that, that you have had many cases now where there's complete impunity for people who will attack a Mohammed Deepak, [00:45:00] and then he will go- Mm ... and register a case, there'll be a counter FIR. In cow lynching cases also, there's an FIR on the person who's been lynched before, that what is the meat that you're carrying.Manisha: In fact, there was this odious, um, really tragic headline from last week, uh, where these two women were arrested for cooking beef- song: Hmm. Yeah ... Manisha: in, uh, some part in Uttar Pradesh, and then the meat was sent to forensic. I mean, this kind of thing has become so normal that the meat sample has been sent to forensic lab for testing.Manisha: Even if they were eating beef, I mean, just... And it was a very sad picture to see these two diminutive women flanked by police officers arrested because they were eating beef. This thing of the police, it has never had a good name when it comes to even in riots. You've had cases in the past where they've actively sided with the majority group.Manisha: Uh, the same question as I asked to Ram about the judiciary, with you to the police, like this kind of communalization or siding with the majoritarian narrative among the police, is it new from what [00:46:00] you've observed? Raman: First, uh, one, uh- Mm-hmm ... thing about precedent. Precedent is note banding is very well taken, but, uh, what we are-- I was trying to say in this that Na- in Najib case The due process of law was taken, whether law is fair or not, I mean, the judges had taken a very liberal view about it.Raman: Mm-hmm. But the later, uh, in 2026, the judgment in, uh, you know, Umar Khalid case is a step back. Ramachandra Guha: Yeah. Raman: It is, it is talking about procedure established by law, so the liberal view wasn't taken. So this is, uh, what, what precedent is, uh, not binding that, uh, for the Supreme Court that is, uh, known. Uh, secondly, I think, uh, as, uh, Mr.Raman: Guha said is, which is, uh, even I believe in, in coalition politics, government politics, I think the check and balances, uh, really work better. Ramachandra Guha: Hmm. Raman: Uh, but when, uh, [00:47:00] there is one dominant party which comes into power, uh, which is the case, you know, for the past 11, 12 years, so you can very clearly see that whatever the government line is, uh, the, whether the bureaucracy or the police, they are towing it, uh, you know, uh, in its spirit- Ramachandra Guha: HmmRaman: and letter. So, so, so, so, uh, so it, uh, say the Gorakshaks, uh, you know, uh, the, the politicians, uh, have a sympathetic view about it is very well known. Uh, so that is why the police hesitate to take any ac- action against them. So similarly, you will also see, I mean, I mean this is Delhi, but if you just step out of Delhi, go to places like Moradabad and others, Bajrang Dal, they are assisting the police- Ramachandra Guha: YeahRaman: and going to the court and identifying wh- wherever there is a, a love [00:48:00] jihad cases. So the Bajrang Dal and the police, they are, you know, um, hand in glove, uh, you know, when it comes to the cases of love jihad. So I think, uh, whenever there is one dominant... Especially, uh, in 2014, uh, I have not seen in the past, you know, so much...Raman: Of course, uh, when the riots happened, uh, the, the 1984 riots, uh, I mean, I was a student at that time- Mm-hmm ... and I had seen it. I was in Delhi. I was living in East Delhi, so I have seen that, uh, what all had happened, you know- Mm-hmm ... during that time. Uh, but, but after 2014, uh, I think, uh, whichever party is going to come into power, uh, I mean n- non BJP party, I think they have taken a lesson from the BJP- Mm-hmmRaman: and they'll follow the same. So, so, uh, the check and balances work much, much better in coalition politics. Uh, in, [00:49:00] um, in one dominant party, no. Manisha: Hmm. I think this is very important what Raman said. You know this Bajrang Dal parallel universe Which is working like a separate law enforcement agency in tandem with the police is actually something that a lot of people are talking about.Manisha: Even in cases of, say, personal rivalry. We have had cases where, you know, it's a property dispute with your neighbor or there's some other, the other issue. Bajrang Dal guys being, you know, put on hire to create some sort of a issue and kind of trap them in some Gau Rakshak case or some meat eating case or whatever.Manisha: And even when there have been cases of love jihad, you've seen Bajrang Dal alert the police often and say, "This is happening," and then they are accompanying them and doing everything. So, and this sort of thing is not reversible, I feel, because once you unleash this kind of madness and there's a tacit understanding that it can go unchecked, it cannot be in the control of any one party.Manisha: I don't think it'll even be in [00:50:00] the control of Modi or Yogi or anyone else, because then it has a life of its own as we've seen with most extreme movements. It may start off as something that politicians want to use, but then it just becomes something that no one can really control. So your thoughts on that, Ranjan?Rinchen: All right. So just two things. Mm. Um, one about the communalized, sort of communalization of the police, the question you had asked Raman sir, and whether it's a re- whether it's, you know, whether it's a recent thing. Um, I, uh, I... There's a book by, uh, a journalist Josie Joseph, "The Silent Coup", um, where he sort of documents the fact that this communalization of police is, I mean, it's, it's not a recent thing.Rinchen: It's been on, going on forever. He cites particular cases of torture of, uh, Muslim accused in terror cases and how the police treat them, and the sort of language that is used during interrogation. So I mean, this is not new. But what is new, uh, however, is this whole, you know, uh, these, um, how do you call these Bajrang Dal, like non-stateManisha: Non-state actors ... Rinchen: non-state [00:51:00] actors essentially, right? So, and what, and what you said is absolutely correct, that once the genie's out of the bottle, it's very hard to put it back in. Because see, the police, who are the police and who comprise, who, who are the people that make up the police? It's people like you and I in, who live in the same society, same neighborhood, same communities.Rinchen: So even if there's a new government that comes in, say, in UP, Haryana, or even at the center- This, this sort of institutionalization process that has happened, that has been happening over the last 12 years, I don't know how you can undo it in, you know, with the change in government. Um, this is gonna take a lot more work.Rinchen: So yeah, that's my- Mm ... sort of perspective on this. Manisha: So my last question on this to Ramu, and then we'll let him go. We know we only have him till 12:15. Uh, you know, uh, so two things, and then you can or answer them in the order of your preference. One is, to me, people like [00:52:00] Umar Khalid, uh, Sudha Bhardwaj, uh, even, uh, former Justice S.Manisha: Muralidhar, who's been in the news for presenting- Yeah ... a case against Israel, uh, on the atrocities against children. Uh, re- let's remember he was shunted out- Rinchen: Yeah ... Manisha: for being, uh, very, very upright with the Delhi riots case- Mm ... and pulling up the police. Uh, these people give me a lot of hope because they have gone through trying circumstances, but then they come out of it very hopeful of the country, of the system, of, you know- India as we know it prevailing.Manisha: And I find that quite special because even with Sudha Bhardwaj who had been in jail and who spent all her life helping Adivasis actually fight cases in the court. She learnt law at the age of 40 because she realized that if she had to fight for tribals, it's very difficult to get lawyers, the fee, the language, it's all a problem, so she decided she'll learn it herself and took up many of these cases.Manisha: And in some sense, she is a representative of the [00:53:00] Indian state in these remote areas where you ... they don't get help, but she's there to say, "Okay, no, you know, have faith in judiciary. We'll fight this case legally." And she's incarcerated, you know, all kinds of things are said, and she comes out still feeling very optimistic about giving it a fight.Manisha: So I find that a very remarkable characteristic, so your views on that. And, um, you know, uh, we are again, like I said, at this point where you mentioned Kokrajhar Janata Party. Uh, th- and there are rumblings of people at least signaling that we are not all happy with this Hindu-Muslim narrative. We're not all happy with the majoritarian kind of government, and in some sense 2024 was about that, the mandate of 2024, that we want a strong opposition.Manisha: Uh, b- and we s- like I said, there's a Jantar Mantar protest that's going on right now. But what, in your view, talking about protests, you know, we've had Shaheen Bagh, we've had farmers protests, we have the Kokrajhar Janata Party view. What, in your view, makes a successful protest, and why is it that we [00:54:00] haven't seen what we saw with, say, an Anna movement?Manisha: A replication of that, the scale of it, where the government was actually on the back foot and it fell at the end of the day. So those two Ramachandra Guha: questions. So I'll, I'll, I'll answer your question in reverse order- Huh ... if I may. Manisha: Yeah. Ramachandra Guha: Uh, so first on the question of protests and why don't we see more protests. Manisha: Mm.Ramachandra Guha: Uh, you know, I think that awaits a serious sociological analysis. Raman: Mm. Ramachandra Guha: But there are two or three reasons. One is, of course, the police has become much more, uh, uh, you know, it doesn't give permission for protests. Recently in Kolkata, the annual rally that, uh, the TMC would hold on is Martyrs' Day, uh, they were not allowed to hold.Ramachandra Guha: In Bangalore, uh, we could hold a protest in, uh, the Gandhi statue on MG Road and Town Hall where people would notice. Now, the only place allowed is a completely isolated, uh, uh, part of, you know, uh, central Bangalore where there are no roads and no buses and no one can come and see you. It's called Freedom Park, and I call it Where [00:55:00] Freedom Is Shut Away Park.Ramachandra Guha: And so ... Okay, now, and, um, uh, the, the, the courts have been complicit in this. You know, they have said designated spot, nowhere else. Mm. You know, why not the, in front of the Town Hall in Bangalore, which is where the anti-CAA protest took place in 2019. After that, the courts banned it and they said, "You are affecting commuters."Ramachandra Guha: You know, all kinds of, you know, odd reasons were given. I think a second reason for- Possibly for, uh, you know, uh, uh, and this is more speculative and more controversial, but I'll offer it anyway. Raman: Hmm. Ramachandra Guha: A second reason for, uh, the lack of major protest movements, nonviolent protest movements, is this wretched instrument, the sta- smartphone.Ramachandra Guha: Yeah. Because you click on, uh, change.org and then, and then "Andolan kari ban gaya hu, I've joined, I've joined this cause," you know. When I was young you would go. I mean, I remember. I mean, um, I remember when Raman was living in Delhi in those days, the late '80s and early '90s. You know, there was a large protest of dam displaced people outside BPC's house, and all, we all of us [00:56:00] went and joined.Ramachandra Guha: Yeah. Because- Hmm ... because we heard about it. I was in Delhi University. Someone told me, "Chalo, yeh ho raha hai," and it was a joyous occasion, you know, with Adivasi singing and dancing and so on. So I think ... But essentially the state does not want protest. Now, to ans- answer your first question, IRamachandra Guha: thinkRamachandra Guha: it- I just want to Manisha: chip in. Just want to chip in here. You said that people now can sign petitions on ta- change.org. That is also 10 years ago. Now they just need to like a post and feel happy. Ramachandra Guha: Okay, that's it. And also, also, not just like a Manisha: post. Ramachandra Guha: Or share. Right. Manisha: Like, share, subscribe. Ramachandra Guha: Yeah. But also, also like a post.Ramachandra Guha: I tell you, and I, I am not on Instagram, you know. And a friend told me, uh, but I said, you know, when this whole Gaza thing was happening, I said, "Aren't the young, uh, upset?" He said, "Yes, but the problem is they will like the, they will like the post on the horrors of Gaza and give a comment, and then they'll beRamachandra Guha: immediately they'll go to a post on a cat or a dog or, or, or, or some clever poster they've seen." So sustained engagement with an issue is, is difficult. Mm-hmm. Uh, now, uh, your first question. I'll let you mention Sudha Bhardwaj, [00:57:00] Manisha. You know, uh, about, uh, shortly after she was given bail with a very restrictive condition that she had to be in Bombay, uh, away from her daughter and family.Manisha: Yeah. Ramachandra Guha: I was in Bombay and, uh, Pratik Gandhi, who's a well-known Gujarati actor and Hindi actor, was doing a one-act play on Gandhi. So I went to watch him. And in the foyer there was Sudha Bhardwaj. Manisha: Okay. Ramachandra Guha: I'd never met her and she had never met me. We have mutual friends, you know, the anthropologist Nandini Sundar being preeminent among them.Ramachandra Guha: And spontaneously we hugged. I took a photo and I sent it to Nandini, and then I was chatting with her and she was so, you know, warm, humane, kind. Uh, it was, you know, inspirational to be with her. Uh, and there are people like that, including older people. I mean, one person I'm Uh, I greatly admire is in her, uh, late 80s.Ramachandra Guha: She may already have turned 90. She lives in the remote Himalayan town of Kausani, and her name is Radha [00:58:00] Bhatt. I mean, she's, you know, uh, uh, you know, was president of the Gandhi Peace Foundation. She's run a remarkable girls school for decades. And, you know, she's still serving, still hopeful, still nurturing minds, opening up minds.Ramachandra Guha: So there are people like this. But here also, I want to end on a pessimistic note. Okay. Now, one thing that has become clear, you talked about the Bajrang Dal. You know, the Bajrang Dal are really goons. I mean, they are gundas, they're vigilantes promoted by the state political parties and, uh, and the police.Manisha: Mm. Ramachandra Guha: But there is, it's the mother organization of all of them, which is the RSS. Manisha: Yes. Ramachandra Guha: That's right. Now, where the RSS comes in, in the context of protests- is that, uh, the philosophy of this government is one party, one leader, one election, and one NGO. That's it, the RSS. You know, so which means what Sudha Bhardwaj used to do, what Radha Bhat does, what, you know, Mahesh Raut was doing in [00:59:00] Gadchiroli, all the selfless social workers working education, health, environment, sustainability, women's rights, if they don't owe allegiance to the Sangh Parivar, uh, they will have their licenses cut.Ramachandra Guha: They can't get funds. Uh, you know, uh, if, i- if they get a CSR donation- Raman: Mm ... Ramachandra Guha: then the company that gives them the donation will be investigated. So one, it's insidious, uh, agendas of this government, less noticed. One gov- one party, one leader, we know, but one NGO. That's also part of Manisha: it. I think that's very well put.Manisha: Thank you so much for joining us. Before we let you go, please give us your recommendations. What should we read, watch, listen to, to enrich our lives? Ramachandra Guha: Well, if you want to, I would say read ..., because, you know, everyone has their own, uh, reading preferences. Manisha: Mm. Ramachandra Guha: But for me, what gives me sustenance as I grow older and, uh, I go- grow more depressed with my country-Ramachandra Guha: is Indian classical music. So and I, and YouTube. [01:00:00] YouTube, where the great dead people, you know, you can go and hear Venkatesh Kumar or Ashwini Bhide sing because they're happily with us. But I would say the two artists I have been discovering and rediscovering in the last few months are the Agra gharana Ustad Sharafat Hussain Khan and the Gwalior gharana doyen Malini Rajurkar.Ramachandra Guha: Mm. So when you hear them, it's the finest of Indian culture, and it transcends Hindu, Muslim, man, woman, north, south, high caste, low caste, all the other divides that plague us. You know, our classical music, you know, is a, uh, is, is a kind of panacea for all of that. Manisha: In fact, this reminds me of this beautiful piece that you had written in Scroll on discovering Kumar Gandharva on YouTube.Manisha: I think you had attended one of his concerts live in Delhi, and then you found the exact same concert on YouTube. Yes. And I heard it, it was beautiful, and I was just so jealous of your generation that got to hear him live. Ramachandra Guha: Not just him, Malik Arjun Mansoor, Ali Akbar Khan, Ravi Shankar, Vilayat Khan, Alla Rakha Khan.Ramachandra Guha: So it was, it was, it was the-- Nikhil Banerjee. Hmm. Buddha Dev Das[01:01:00] Ramachandra Guha: Gupta. I mean, it was, it was just amazing. Nisar Hussain Khan. But all of that is now on YouTube. Raman: I attended Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan in Ramachandra Guha: Delhi. Uh-huh. Wonderful. Mm-hmm. That's also on YouTube. So I would say, you know, uh, and there is no, uh, finer, more elevated art form produced by our country and our civilization than classical music, Hindustani and Carnatic.Ramachandra Guha: You know, I don't know that much about Carnatic music, but so I'd say that's where you should go to if you're feeling depressed or lonely. Manisha: So lo- Or Ramachandra Guha: you've broken up with your girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever. Just go Manisha: there. Lovely recommendation. Thank you so much for joining us. Raman: Thank you. Manisha: Thank you.Ramachandra Guha: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you. Bye. Manisha: Okay. So Rinchin, you agree with Ram that we are too distracted for a sustained, uh, protest? Ramachandra Guha: Mm. Manisha: Also, the fun element of it, what he's saying is very important, that it used to be a mahal. Everyone get there. There's music, [01:02:00] singing, there's protest also, but there's a shared fraternity sort of- Rinchen: I take all those points, um, which is, you know, the distractions, you know, lack of attention span, mahal, and all of that stuff.Rinchen: But I would like to make a larger point in terms of the media's role in all of this. Um, this, which c- at least since the India against... since the Anna, uh, Andolan, the India Against Corruption movement, there has been an attempt to create this sort of n- notion of what a protest should look like. Like this Gandhian sort of aesthetic, not really in spirit, but just aesthetic.Rinchen: Mm. And, uh,[01:03:00] Rinchen: yeah, so. Manisha: And back to Raman sir, this Umar Khalid, why, you know, it's an important, uh, point to bring back to him and his case because the Supreme Court actually, in the last order denying bail, had said that the big crime that was being ascribed to him was organization of a Chakka Jam- Hmm ... even Sharjeel Imam.Manisha: Yeah. So your point that, uh, why this is actually quite dangerous because Chakka Jam is something we've kind of grown up, and I've said this in the previous podcast also, it's just the most Indian way of protesting. We've all grown up hearing the word. Ramachandra Guha: Yeah. Manisha: But with, you know, the CAA, NRC case, and everyone's accused of terror charges in that case, from Sharjeel to Umar, [01:04:00] there is a criminalization of protests that Supreme Court seems to be okay with.Raman: In fact, you remember we had planned a series of stories- Manisha: Mm ... Raman: on protests, especially in the university areas- Mm ... how it has virtually been banned. Ramachandra Guha: Yeah, it's Manisha: been Raman: slammed. The students can't do it. See, in our time, I remember in '90s when we were, uh, reporters, uh, we had, uh, Jantar Mantar as one of the beats. Mm.Raman: Jantar Mantar was a place where most of the protests used to happen. So even I know reporters, when I became chief reporter, reporters, if they don't have a story, so they always used to go to Jantar Mantar, ki wahan toh kuch mil jayega. So, so, so this used to be the approach, uh, you know, this was the ... I mean, it was, protest was in the air.Raman: Uh, there, I mean, it used to happen, uh, even, uh, it was, uh, the trade unionism was [01:05:00] dying- Ramachandra Guha: Mm ... Raman: but, but still there were, uh, you know, protests by trade unions also. So having said that, I think, uh, uh, I take, uh, uh, Mr. Guha's, uh, point, you know, that, uh, they do everything on the social media. Uh, they physically nobody- Instant gratification.Raman: Uh, no. Sure. But then I think, uh, I also feel that, uh, social media has become a very good communicator also. Rinchen: Yeah. Raman: So if you see, uh, even cockroach thingy, this guy was sitting in America- Rinchen: Mm. Raman: Mm ... and he was able to generate such a heat- Rinchen: Galvanize ... Raman: in India. Uh, and, and then he, when he was coming here, you see, I mean, we, we had shown, uh, you know, live videos when he landed.Raman: Mm. Mm. The kind of arrangements that- were made. Uh, here the culprit is the godi media, the mainstream media, which did not cover the protest per se. They may be covering that how [01:06:00] the protest is an obstacle to, uh, i- in, in day-to-day life, but, but they were not, uh, covering the protest. Uh, whereas in case of, uh, Anna Hazare, the, where th- this, uh, you know, Kejriwal's movement, the entire media was- HmmRaman: covering it. So I think they blacked it out, but still, uh, it has cashed up the imagination of people. Uh, we s- in fact, we had covered it, and we saw so many- Yeah ... commoners- Rinchen: Mm ... Raman: were over there. The parents had come. Rinchen: Who never protest Raman: in a day in a- Uh, huh, the parents- Yeah ... along with their, uh, you know, children, uh, they had come.Raman: So I think, uh, they have made some beginning, and I think social media, uh, is, is a communicator. I mean, I may not even I'd ... This, I, I just abhor, uh, you know, this, uh, the, some, some platforms. Uh, and I don't want to be on those platform, but still, if you really want to judge and want to know, [01:07:00] uh, thing, but, but that zeal of hitting the field- HmmRaman: is not much. Manisha: Actually, it'll be, it'll ... Ram is right. There should be a sociological analysis of- Mm ... you know, protest culture in India, how it's evolved- Yeah ... and what the smartphone is doing. For me, the most, one of the most iconic pictures is the Nirbhaya gang rape protest that happened. Yeah. Yeah. People hit Parliament Street.Manisha: There was water cannon- Yeah ... in December, and there's one guy who climbs up a lamppost- Mm ... and is like this- Yeah ... you know. That's also when Kavita Krishnan went viral for the first time- Yeah ... outside Sheila Dikshit's house. She gave this very impassioned speech. Everyone picked it up, and then Arnab called her on a show.Manisha: And like, "Listen to this woman. She's so great." So, you know, so much, so much has slipped in just 12 years. But Anand, if you were to look at the most successful protests, if you were to don your historian's hat, and you're not a historian- But- ... but if you were to just look at ... So successful protests, and- Anand: RecentManisha: do you, do you see there's a change in terms of what social media is doing? Anand: No, see, uh, i- uh- Has it been better at galvanizing or it's just made us lazy? ... for a country of, uh, India's scale and [01:08:00] population, much is not much. So, uh, always the public sphere is, is limited to few thousands or lakhs of people, and that is not much, means in terms of, say Electoral impact or for, uh, its spillover effect may be a, a factor.Anand: But, uh, mm, when we look at the public sphere in India, uh, just because we are in a, say, public interest activity like journalism or, say, NGOs or bureaucracy or public things related to public affairs where people earn from public sphere and they make their earning there, we think that this is a very expanded space, public sphere.Anand: But it w- it was always a very s- uh, I think limited space, because the most vi- uh, mm, say, st- mm, striking [01:09:00] protests of even recent years, uh, was limited to few lakhs of people. If you go any street, you own-- in your own neighborhood, you didn't find people speaking about it. At least I didn't find. Manisha: Which one?Manisha: Is this- Anand: Like even Anna movement. I, uh, the place I lived in, nobody was talking about it. They were going about- Really? Main Manisha: Anna Hoon, you didn't see Anand: this one? No, I didn't see. Or, and, uh, and I think more successful protests are, are very specific Fee kam kar do, ye postpone kar do, ye which has a clear agenda- MmAnand: a very specific minuscule point has to be done. Some-- Those kind of protests get-- Uh, universities still have protest, uh, they, uh, but I think engagement is low, very low. Means, uh, uh, I think two points are here important. Uh, uh, and it, it was something I used to feel 20 years or 25 years ago [01:10:00] in university, and I also feel now, but now more and more people feel this.Anand: That suppose there is a seminar hall in an university and five, six people are speaking, and in that seminar hall, all students and those people who are trying to, uh, start a protest or something have a common agenda, and they are common people there. Once they walk out the, of that seminar hall, they go by good cars.Anand: Students go o-on a DTC bus in a scorching heat. The s- crowd is different. And slowly, cynicism s-sets in that these people have their life made. They have their careers. They will even make career out this, out, out of this protest. Where will be you go? Mm. Why you are wasting your time here? Why, why you are so-- More and more people have got cynical.Anand: They have to do something. They have to do something within two or three years. And if you [01:11:00] waste your time protesting, organizing this and that, that, that is, they say that is for more privileged, privileged children who want some kind of moral orchestration of their moral self somehow. So that, that is one point.Anand: A-about social media, but, uh Uh, what Mr. Guha was saying, there is also a counterpoint to it. If, if a like or a this is all, all it and all they care is about social media, then there is another question that social media can also give you visibility. If you are at a protest site, why it is not cool to be seen on a social protest site on social media?Anand: S- uh, suppose that person who is, uh, who, who only cares for visibility and social media likes and following, and he, if he's seen on, say, any protest like, uh, Cockroach Party protest, why it is not cool to be seen? [01:12:00] He, he would give his right hand to be viral. Hmm. Go, uh, go on protest. So, so somehow the coolness factor of being seen on a protest site has gone down.Anand: Has gone Manisha: down. Anand: Yes. Hmm. So because if that was the factor, people would go. People, people would go at random places to become viral, so Rinchen: Hmm, 'cause- Manisha: Coolness factor and then we'll get Rinchen: to letters. Yeah, just, just one poi- uh, the point about, uh, this thing about, you know, protesters and, you know, you know, some people living, leaving in cars and, you know, students living, and that, you know, these people have their life made, life set.Rinchen: Reminds me of this, uh, uh, "Hazaron Khwaishein Aisi"- Mm-hmm ... that movie. The Shiney Ahuja's character tells, uh, uh, Kay Kay Menon and Chitrangda Singh, you know, like she tells, he tells Chitrangda Singh, "His, his father is a judge. His, you know, he's fine, he's privileged." Anand: And- "Rinchen: If you get caught, so will we." Her husband Anand: was an IAS officer.Rinchen: Yeah, and, "If you get caught, so will we." Like, you know, I come from like from low middle class backgrounds. Hmm. So it's an interesting point that he made. [01:13:00] W- just two, two, uh, small things I would like to say. Protests ultimately are meant to disrupt That is the whole objective of any successful protest, that it is meant to disrupt public life, to show dissatisfaction at the, uh, governing class, right?Rinchen: And, uh, sort of-- and this is why I think the-- what's interesting to look at is the evolution of the CJP protest. So until now, and even now, it's still sort of limited to that Jantar Mantar area, the sort of designated protest site. Right? There is no... But what you're seeing now slowly is s- confrontations with the police.Manisha: Hmm. Rinchen: Like yesterday or day before, there was a guy who'd set up a library in the this thing. Manisha: Apparently, he was roughed, roughed up, as you said. Rinchen: He was roughed, beaten up, and Dipke, he said, and when the police asked, "kisne kiya?" He actually gave the names of two police officers who did this, who, you know, you know?Rinchen: And that, so that confrontation with the state is [01:14:00] slowly building up. Until now, it has played within the safe Gandhian aesthetic of what a protest should look like within a designated zone, not disrupting, not inconveniencing anyone. But now, it'll be interesting to see how this evolves further. Raman: In late '70s when I passed out, uh, you know, my school and went to the university, uh, Delhi University North Campus, uh- In my time, there was lot of patriarchy, not just for women, for boys also.Raman: Mm. Uh, the teachers, the, uh, whether you are at home or you are at school, you are, you were subjected to that pa-patriarchy. So f- your entry into the university for graduation was the first point where I felt a little freedom- Ramachandra Guha: Mm ... Raman: and I wanted to assert myself. And that assertion, making that assertion was not difficult.Ramachandra Guha: [01:15:00] Mm. Raman: Whether it, it was sitting, uh, you want to go to the library and study for your exams, or you find some... You, you are, you know, you are looking outward for the first time. You're looking, looking, uh, you know, different kind of movements happening around you. So, so... And, and you want to participate in it. It was very easy to participate in it.Raman: So, so the, so that, that atmosphere of protest, uh, I mean, I, I entered into university in 1979. Uh, so '79, '80, uh, and '84. So till '84 I was there. And I mean, I can, I could very clearly see it was very good atmosphere. So long as you are not doing, uh, you know, uh, violence, uh, you can participate in all kinds of protests.Raman: Mm. But now, I, I was part of JNU also. So, uh, in JNU also I've spent one and a half years, and I've seen, uh, my time, '86, uh, uh, uh, '86, '87. [01:16:00] And now, uh, I mean, you raise your voice and- Mm ... the, the, the, the, the university authorities, they just slap a case, some FIR. In- So, so that fear Of, uh, you know, this thing Fines also Huh, fines.Manisha: Fear, fines- Like exor- exorbitant fines- Hmm ... which are more painful for the student- Yeah ... because you Rinchen: can't pay those fines Yeah Incarceration, incarceration. Fear of incarceration and fines. It's so- Like when, like when the protests were going on in Ladakh, uh, at the time I was in, uh, London, um, you know, meeting my partner.Rinchen: She's, she was studying there at the time. And I was tweeting out a lot of stuff, you know, about the, you know, violence on September 24th, what happened, so on and so forth. And, uh, it was getting a lot of traction on Twitter. And my ... I started getting calls from my parents. "Okay, can you," you know- Manisha: Delete ... "Rinchen: tone down, delete karo?"Rinchen: Like, you know, not delete, but like just say, just take it easy, like, you know, whatever. Even my friends who were in London at the time, they're like, "Get, first get back to India, and then, uh, jo karna hai social media pe [01:17:00] karo." So there is a legitimate fear- Hmm ... that of incarceration, of fines, of ... Like, because in India, as we all know, process is punishment.Rinchen: Hmm. So there is definitely the ... So that definitely has played a part in sort of, uh, you know, uh, reducing the sort of spirit of protests, like- Hmm ... uh, in some, lot of ways amongst students. Manisha: So just to wrap up, I think we've mentioned Gandhi many times in this discussion, and I feel like the genius of Gandhi was exactly this.Manisha: If you were to just look at Indians, and this is broad generalization, but I think there are three qualities of Indians which make us generally, barring some communities, averse to protest. One, I think we generally have a long view of life and a philosophical view of life. Ki ye hota tha, ab chalta rahega, kuch nahi badle.Manisha: You know, we are always kind of pehle bhi hota tha, aage bhi hoga- Fatalistic ... jeevan kya hai, mithya types. Anand: Fatalistic, Manisha: yeah. That kind of a, kind of a mentality where it is not very pro-protest, that kind of mentality where you, you know, you have a longer view of life. [01:18:00] Second, I th- I think we are not people who generally challenge authority too much.Manisha: And I think even Gandhi's time, the idea to imagine that every W- Indian would stand up to British was very radical because there's poverty, way more back then. There's your life struggles, and all of that makes it very difficult for you to ... It is a privilege in some sense to challenge authority.Manisha: Everything has to be sorted in your life, your food, your profession, your money, your rent, for you to then say, "Okay, now let me take this panga." And I think with these two qualities, Gandhi still managed to rally so many Indians and fight against the British, get them on the road, knowing that this is an impoverished country.Manisha: It is not, you know, there's not gonna be the revolution in the typical sense because people have to worry about their food and everything. It is not necessarily, uh, uh, you know, that challenge authority wala DNA. And, uh, the first thing that I said that, you know, this l- fatalistic view of life, which often comes in the way of immediate demands 'cause you feel nothing will [01:19:00] change or it's always been like this.Manisha: And to rally such a population into such a sustained struggle against the British, I think was sheer genius. And I don't think anyone's managed to do it in that way that he did, and which involved a lot of pain. Hmm. There was jailing, there was danda, there was lathi. There were brutal crackdowns and murders committed by the British, but it-- he still was successful.Manisha: So I think that's something that I will always hold very, like I... irrespective of whatever flaws he may have, I think it was, it's quite a quality that not many politicians have managed since him in India. Okay. So with that, let's get to the letters of the week. This week's letters have been curated by Raman Kirpal.Manisha: The remaining letters will be read in our Haftaa Subscribers Take. The first letter is from Saumya. She says, "Hi, NLN TNM team. I saw the press brief at UN by Justice Muralidhar and was blown away. Can you interview him?" We have already. We've heard you. So it'll be out today at 8:00 p.m. So by the time you [01:20:00] listen to this podcast, you could, you would, could also watch it.Manisha: So do watch that interview. It's on YouTube. Uh, "What according to the UN was the role of the USA in all of this, direct as well as indirect? Keep up excellent work. Reporting only facts like Akar Patel's article in the media, on ground reports by Anmol on CGP protests, you allow viewers to form their own opinions.Manisha: This is what you guys do best." Thank you so much. Do check out the interview. I think it'll answer your question on US, other countries, the whole process of this commission. Anupama says, News Laundry ke bhaiyo. Bhaiyo. Bhaiyo? Anand: Oh, Manisha: I thought bhaiyo. Because double, double, double Y, na? Bhaiya log. You were wrong about CJP, and now you're ignoring them.Manisha: This won't do. They have managed to rouse the populace of India, which has been in moral coma for a while. Please do cover them and the farmers who have also joined. This is hopeful, and there's not a lot of hope doing around in the country today. So we have covered, but I also think like everyday daily coverage we don't [01:21:00] wanna do unless there's a news.Manisha: Um, we're not a 24/7 news channel anyway- Yeah ... so we don't have to. I think we've done some, uh, good coverage from the beginning, but I also don't want to do a report a day from, from Jantar Mantar. So Anjali Dastoor says, "Dear NL Hafta team, just finished watching and listening to the last po- episode of Hafta and feel so satisfied as the video never played on my phone, but only audio, so I had to let you know.Manisha: This is my second year as a subscriber, and I really look forward to listening to sane voices on the panel. One question that keeps popping up during arguments with friends is, 'If not Modi, then who?' To which I have no answer. Are any answers there? Really appreciate the work you do. Wishing you continued success and power.Manisha: Hope Jayshree would continue to be part of the discussion every now and then." We also hope so. Anyone wants to answer if Modi, then... Is it an important question, if not Rinchen: Modi, then who? The people of India? Come on, I mean, who's, it's an- Who can predict? We can't predict. These questions are only relevant 'til other person becomes prime minister.Rinchen: Prime, yeah. [01:22:00] Anand: It isAnand: just a matter of time. Yeah. If someone replaces him, these questions will die down. Rinchen: Yeah. Manisha: Eveline says, "Dear NL team, I have been an NL subscriber for five or six years now. Keep up the good work. Recently read the Bollywood and Me Too story. One knew but not in the specificity. Shocked, but not surprised." So we have an interesting series coming up on Bollywood, which you shall really love reading.Manisha: It was helmed by Raman sir, so stay tuned for that, listeners. I wanted to suggest that on the eve of another paper leak and the talk on education, do you think it would be good story to deep dive into takeover of the educational institutions? While many talk about it as a general thing, the depth would take away the banality of it and express the crisis in its nuance.Manisha: Just a thought Okay. We could do that. Juhi says, "Hi, NL Hafta team. The podcast player on NL [01:23:00] app sometimes keeps playing older episodes. Say I had 30 minutes left on last week's episode, and I selected the new Hafta, it was playing the older episode. Can someone look into it?" Okay, little critique of Anand, who personally seems to not like Rahul Gandhi, and just went on and on about Rahul Gandhi is not courageous.Manisha: Yes, it's his job as opposition, but who else is bringing up these issues, especially opposing Adani, Ambani mafia? Just completely ignoring that seems like boomer uncle behavior. Anand. Anand is millennial, he's not Anand: boomer. He's not Manisha: boomer. Okay. On a personal anecdote, when I was studying at St. Stephen's, Rahul Gandhi visited our campus in 2009, gave a small speech encouraging young educated people to get into politics.Manisha: We openly asked questions. They were screen-- They were not screened, and he took even critical questions on his nepo background in politics. Can you imagine leaders in BJP doing this? Anand, why do you hate Rahul Gandhi? Anand: Oh, I didn't-- Uh, it, like it is, uh, uh, complimenting Rahul [01:24:00] Gandhi for courage is same as, uh, praising Narendra Modi for, uh, being hardworking 18 hour.Anand: So, if some courage or, um, say hard work is there in public view, like a Bollywood superstar being very hardworking, the celebrated hard work, then it has a lot of incentives. Like very ins-- You, you are incentivized for being courageous, and there are a lot of costs for him as the prime opposition leader to be not courage.Anand: Uh, and there are a lot of costs for him. So it is more beneficial for him in the cost benefit analysis to be courageous in whatever way you say he's courageous. That was my point, that, uh, because, uh, my-- maybe our definition of courage is different. My courage-- A lot of courage is invisible. A lot of integrity is [01:25:00] invisible.Anand: Uh, courage, courage and, uh, i-integrity shown when nobody is seeing you, when nobody is actually watching you, is actual courage because you have no incentive then to be courageous. You have no, uh, incentive then to be honest. So be-- Uh, when you are in full public view, you can reap rewards for being courageous or honesty or whatever you think.Anand: That was my point. Second point is about his scientist defense engagement, and now also he engages with a lot of people here and there. Ramachandra Guha: Yeah. Anand: I think, uh- He Ramachandra Guha: meets a lot of college Anand: students. I think, uh, uh, there is, uh, lo- uh, it is my personal assessment that, uh, coming from, uh, a family, political family of extraordinary privilege, there is a lot of pressure on him to be seen as one of the Indians- MmAnand: one of the common Indians. That i- that pressure is not on Mr. Modi. It would be good if he [01:26:00] gives press conferences on scripted questions and all that. That is another point. But I think Mr. Rahul Gandhi, there is a lot of pressure for him to, uh, I think, mm, join the general populace and like be seen as just another Indian, just, and not the privileged Indian.Anand: And that's why his, these roadside engagements with this vendor, that vendor, th- th- that, that, that is a Manisha: part- Rickshaw walas Anand: also he met ... and that is a part of his political strategy and co- or, and political communication. Third is that questions, uh, you see, uh, it is not-- I don't know why politicians don't take questions, uh, because- Uh, only questions are something-- I don't value questions that much because i-i-if you see a, and that is I am going off an, an ta-tangent, but I always wanted to make this point.Anand: If you [01:27:00] see spiritual leaders, all those, uh, crooks- Manisha: Baba Bageshwar Anand: types ... uh, so, uh, uh, no, even, even the more, uh, celebrated, there are even there, there is a class divide. Hmm. Like J. Krishnamurti, Osho, and then there is, uh, Ravi Shankar and all that. Hmm. And then there are some for subaltern babas. Hmm. So, uh, so, so what, what they are, uh, good at andAnand: why, how they engage curiosity is they, uh, ask questions, like questions to which nobody has any answer. And they-- And you, you, for to follow their answers, you have to be their devotee because their answers are very boring. So, uh, I, uh, the answers of politicians, you take, I, I, uh, that's why I endorse every politician to take questions because your answer will be very boring and very predictable.Anand: And your devotees will Manisha: like Anand: it. Like it. Yeah. So there is [01:28:00] no, there is no, um, danger in taking questions. Unless Manisha: it's coming from a Anand: journalist. Because- Yeah. No, means anybody. The questions are unnecessarily celebrated as very cour-courageous. Questions are easiest thing because they're very, say, uh, have this romance of being radical.Anand: Hmm. And those same people who are asking these questions, when they will be in government, their answers will be very boring. So that is because you can campaign in, uh, as the, as the cliché, you can campaign in poetry and all kind sort of radical stuff, but you have to govern in prose, very prosaic. So- You Manisha: wanna add something Raman: to that?Raman: No, I think, uh- Media has created a perception of Rahul Gandhi, so I think to some extent, uh, see, you can talk about his organizational capacity, I mean, whether he's able to organization, uh, organize [01:29:00] well. But whether, whether, uh, his strategy, political strategy is fine. You can question all this, but I think, uh, for a politician, taking questions is very important.Raman: I mean, here I completely- song: Hmm ... Raman: uh, I mean, Modi, uh, even, uh, even abroad, he refused to take questions where- wherever he went. Uh, I think recently, uh, which country it was? Norway? Rinchen: Yeah, it was Norway. Manisha: Yeah. Raman: Uh, so, so where, where I think there is a, there is a policy that, uh, all leaders, you know, they take questions, so he, he refused to- HmmRaman: take questions or even over there. So, so I think I will give it to, uh, Rahul Gandhi, uh, to that extent. I mean, he, he has been mixing up, uh, with people. He is talking. He's gone to London. He's gone to many universities abroad, so he takes questions. So, uh, even if he's giving stupid answers, fine. Uh, uh, uh, one can, uh, uh, one [01:30:00] can take it.Raman: But I think by and large, in case of Rahul Gandhi, I think he's also a victim of, uh, the- Media narrative ... media narrative. 100%. The perception that, uh- 100%, yeah ... has been created about him. Rinchen: So, uh, uh, to An- uh, Anand's point about firstly, the Subaltern Baba thing is really funny. Uh, now the, to the point of privilege and Rahul Gandhi, yeah, he, I mean, what can he...Rinchen: I mean, he, he can't, I mean, he can't help it. He can't help, uh, the, the family that he's from. But to the point of, you know, earlier, y- you know, and it's, it was int- it's interesting to observe Rahul Gandhi's evolution over this period from, especially from the two thou- from 2004, '05 to now. He's increasingly become more comfortable in his own skin as a politician now.song: Yeah. Rinchen: And that privilege and the, you know, the, uh, the sort of his, you know, desire to be seen as one of the people Obviously, it, I think that's an impossible task because of who he is and the sort of- Mm ... privilege that he [01:31:00] comes from. But at the same time, his... What, what I sort of, I'm starting to like about Rahul Gandhi s- more recently is the fact that he's extremely comfortable with a diverse set of, you know, people, whether it is, you know, your street side vendors, whether it's your college students, whether it is, you know, people in different parts of the country, you can see that there is a genuine sort of, uh, sense of empathy that sort of, that emanates from him.Rinchen: And, uh, and that he's willing to take tough questions. That's the bit. Mm. He's willing to take those questions, and of course, a lot of his sort of interaction, of course, there's an element of curation. Like every major public figure, there is- Mm ... always an element of curation. Nothing is 100% organic. But at the same time, he is willing to take difficult questions, and even if he sounds stupid or gives stupid answers, I'll, I, I appreciate the fact that he's willing to take them, unlike this current establishment, which takes no questions.Rinchen: Yeah. I mean, and it betrays a distinct sense of [01:32:00] insecurity. So- Manisha: On the thing of him being comfortable now, I feel like he's 56. He has to now. Rinchen: Yeah, 100%. Manisha: I mean, I think at this point in life, he's also ... If he... So he'll be 58 by the next election. Oh, Rinchen: 58. Wow. Manisha: And then when, if he doesn't win that election, the next chance at being a prime minister is at 62, 63.Manisha: Mm. So I think for him also now, you've lived your whole life. Now at 50, 60, you have to be comfortable with who you are. Mm. Yeah, yeah, 100%. I think all of us should be comfortable with who we are by the time we're 60. But with Modi, of course, there's a very... I think the older... And you know, a lot of people say that he's scared of questions.Manisha: Mm. Karan Thapar is one reason why. Mm-hmm. I don't believe that. I think he... I have seen his, uh, interaction, and it's still there in, on YouTube, the first India Today conclave right after the riots. He's there, and I think Farooq Abdullah there on stage, and he's taking very challenging questions, and he does a pretty decent job of answering.Ramachandra Guha: Hmm. Manisha: I don't think it's fear, but, uh... Of media. I think he's pretty capable of, you know, holding his own. But I think there's [01:33:00] an acute disdain and, and you are just- I think it's the same sort of mindset that someone like a Putin would have or a Xi would have, that we don't need you guys. Yeah. You're not important in the scheme of things.Manisha: But as he's growing older, I think this, uh ... for him, it's the other side, that Rahul is becoming more comfortable with who he is. Modi's become more and more conscious of who he is. Mm-hmm. Which is why you see very curated spectacles with his engagement, and that can also happen with old age. I guess you will get more conscious of your, whatever your complexes or insecurities have been about yourself.Manisha: Yeah, true. Raman: No, when you, when a politician, uh, in power remains silent- Manisha: Mm ... Raman: uh, and, uh, there is a continuous, uh, monologue and propaganda going on, so it create- psychologically, it created some kind of aura- Yeah ... among the public. So I think this is what, uh, he's working on. So the monologue and propaganda is working very fine for him, so why, why questions?Raman: Yeah. Why he should interact with media? [01:34:00] Anand: I think there are no tough questions for a politician because he has a way out of every question because you are not in a court, you are not some, uh... Only thing is you goof-ups. And anyway, you will be, um, caricatured on social media anyway. So I don't see. But yes, on the...Anand: See, Rahul Gandhi, uh, also has singled out that, "I will," uh, in many press conferences, "that you are from that channel. You are from that channel. I will not speak to you. I will not answer that. I will not answer that. You are from this channel." Yeah. So it is not that he has a, a total respect for all sorts of media.Manisha: But I think that kind of media also doesn't deserve. It's a- I mean, they have really been vicious. Well, and- So I get it. If I was in his place even, I would treat them Anand: that way. Narendra, uh, Mr. Modi has this general thing for everyone, like particularly English media. Like, uh, these are people who villainized me and- YeahAnand: and that's reciprocal kind of- Manisha: And they [01:35:00] don't get the real India. I Anand: do ... uh, and that, and, and, uh, not speaking to it, uh, uh, m- means this section of media will have no electoral, uh, disad- advantages for me. And, uh, fortunately for him, what happened is that at that time only the social media game came on. Ramachandra Guha: Yeah.Anand: And he found a parallel means of communication. Communication. Mm-hmm. So, uh, th- th- that, that is also a part of it, yes. Manisha: Great. With that, let's get the recommendations of the week. Rinjan, you wanna go first? Rinchen: Yeah. I would like to recommend, uh, a lawyer and legal scholar, Gautam Bhatia's column in The Hindu today.Rinchen: Uh, since the discussion we had on Umar Khalid and Sharjeel Imam, uh, Right to a Fair Trial at the Crossroads, this is the name of the column in The Hindu today. And it's, so, and the sort of subti- sort of the strapline is, "As pro- proceedings in the 2020 Delhi riots cases show, [01:36:00] endless imprisonment without trial raises urgent questions about liberty and justice."Rinchen: So I would recommend this piece. And second rec- recommendation is not a book, movie, or anything. It's a match which I would recom- Okay. Since the World Cup is happening, uh, and if you are able, if you are awake at 5:30 in the morning on Monday, please tune in to watch England versus Mexico, round of 16 at the Azteca, at the iconic Azteca Stadium in Mexico City, which is at an altitude of about 2,000 meters and its capacity of about 87,000.Rinchen: It's one of the magnificent, most magnificent stadiums I've seen. Uh, it has hosted legendary matches, Maradona's '86 World Cup, uh, the Hand of God, Pelé 1970, uh, for the Brazilian team, uh, the, the final against Italy. So- If-- even if you're not a fan of the game, if you're not a fan of football, I mean, there are some stadiums that which even if you watch it on TV, you can feel the [01:37:00] atmosphere.Rinchen: And this is one such stadium, and I would really recommend everyone to tune in. It's at 5:30 in the morning on a Monday. Um, I'll be up because it's- I, I watch Raman: Portugal versus Croatia at 4:30- Rinchen: Oh, wow. ... today. Okay. So, and, uh, I don't know if the rest of you will, but I would recommend that match very much. Manisha: Anand, your recommendations?Anand: Hmm. My recommend-- So earlier when I came here two weeks ago, I said that I am been just moving away from humanities because at, uh, at, uh- Say, after a lot of years, I found that there are only 10, 15 things to say, and there are millions of people saying the same things in million ways. So just it ... And now it, uh, reading humanities stuff somehow exhausts me.Anand: So I have been reading science mo-m-more of late. Last, uh, [01:38:00] time I recommended a physics book, a very basic physics book. Now, uh, the, uh ... And this time I am relating, uh, something, uh, from chemistry to an current n- current news, uh, debate on ethanol. So, uh, ethanol, uh, the critique, uh, from a scientific point of view of ethanol andAnand: its effect on engine mechanics, engine working, uh, comes from a concept called, uh, f- phase separation. Uh, how, how means, uh, I, I ... It will take a lot of time to dis- uh, to describe it. But I am, uh, recommending a book by Morrison Boyd. Means it's a basic chemistry book, Morrison Boyd. So, mm, in that you will fi- uh, find, uh, particularly in its second volume about phase separation, and you can relate it to the [01:39:00] ethanol and gasoline and petroleum kind of mixture and how, uh, that s- cannot work, how can it affect engines, and why it happens, and why it does not happen when it does not happen.Anand: These answers you can find Manisha: there. Yeah. Revan sir, your recommendation? Raman: Uh, one is, uh, Pratap Bhanu Mehta has reviewed Omar Khaleef book last Sunday in Indian Express. So if somebody wants to have a bird's-eye view of, uh, his book, it's a very brief three-column, uh, book review, so one can, uh, look at it. Now, the two things are happening right now, so my other two recommendation, one is Wimbledon.Rinchen: Hmm. Yeah. Raman: So I'll say, uh, go and watch Rafa Uh, on, uh, Netflix, I think. Rinchen: Yeah. Raman: Uh, it's a four-episode documentary. Rinchen: [01:40:00] Extraordinary. Raman: And how he is fighting, uh, you know, the, his retirement, uh, his, uh, uh, the, the-- Because he apparently he had got, you know, some injury, some, some very rare injury in his leg- Rinchen: Mm-hmm ... Raman: right from the beginning.Raman: Uh, so, so for which if they, if, if he goes for the operation, so it is possible that he will not be able to play ever. So he doesn't go for the operation, he continues playing- Mm ... and wins 14, uh, Ro-Roland Garros and then three Wimbledon. Rinchen: Mm. Raman: So, and I think total 25, uh, Grand Slam. So I think it's a very good, uh, documentary on Netflix.Raman: And the second is, uh, football, the greatest show on Earth right now. So I think, uh, there's one good, uh, full-page article in The Indian Express, uh, I think Sandeep, whether he did it or, [01:41:00] uh, somebody else. Uh, it was about how the migrants have figured as, you know, important players in this tournament. Rinchen: That's Raman: correct.Raman: So if... Ha. So, so the migrants, I mean, if you see, uh, uh, this Japan, the goalkeeper was born in New Jersey. Rinchen: Mm. Raman: And, uh, the- Yeah ... the parents are-- Then, then he migrates to mother-- I think mother or father is Rinchen: Japanese. Father, father is Ghanaian, mother is Japanese. Raman: Japanese. Rinchen: Mm. Mm. Raman: So, so, so likewise, there are, uh, that small, uh, which, which, uh, ca- Cape Verde?Raman: Yeah. Yeah. Cabo Verde. Cabo Verde. So Cabo Verde also, I mean, it is, uh ... I think mo-most of the players were living in French or they were born- Mm ... in France. Rinchen: Mm. Raman: So they are now part of this Cabo Verde, which is, uh, in the last, uh, 16. Rinchen: There's a very interesting ... So there's a player in the United States, he got, unfortunately, got a red card last game of, of, Folar- He's Raman: one of the best players Rinchen: for them.Rinchen: Yeah, one of the best players for the US team, Folarin Balogun. So his, his mother ... So America has [01:42:00] birthright, uh- Mm ... citizenship. Ramachandra Guha: Mm. Rinchen: So, uh, she was about to fly to the UK, and she was stopped from flying because she was too pregnant. And so therefore, he was born in the United States, and therefore he became eligible to play for the United States, and now he's one of the top players playing in- Top player.Rinchen: I mean, there's some remarkable Raman: stories. Yeah. So, so one good- Mm ... uh, full page article in Indian Express, uh, about these migrant players. So- How lovely ... I'll Rinchen: recommend it. One, one additional recommendation, which is Mukul Kesavan's piece in The Telegraph called Rogue Host. Mm. Uh, just Trump's World Cup, and the sort ofRinchen: Yeah, I just ... Like, just read the piece. It's just beautiful prose, and also just, uh, th- that you have to watch this even if you're enjoying the game, which some of the games are fantastic, but you have to understand the larger context within which this World Cup is happening. Yeah. So Manisha: it's interesting Anand mentioned humanities, because my recommendation is to do with- How popular it's [01:43:00] becoming- Anand: MmManisha: in terms of hireability. So software engineers may lose their jobs with AI, but apparently philosophers are back in demand. So there's a really interesting piece in "Economist" on why AI labs are increasingly hiring- They are Anand: following the reverse path ... Manisha: yeah, yeah, why AI labs are hiring so many philosophers.Manisha: And there's another piece in "Guardian," uh, which is, uh, of this philosopher who's been working with Google DeepMind AI since 2017, and why AI today needs more people studying humanities. I was very happy because I took philosophy in my- Hello. Uh, so- So Ramachandra Guha: finally it counts, Manisha: huh? I was like, finally. Finally it works.Manisha: So, uh, you know, back then it was a simple 90% is science- Ramachandra Guha: Mm ... Manisha: 80% you do BCom, commerce, and then 80 say below you do arts. Yeah. I got 85 or 86 in 12, so people were very surprised. "Why are you studying arts? You got the marks." Yeah. "Ramachandra Guha: Why Manisha: don't you just do study economics?" And then within arts, if you had like, say, 79, 77, whatever, you'd get psychology, then sociology, and then every hopeless [01:44:00] person would go to the philosophy.Manisha: Like somebody who's gotten 50, 40% is philosophy wala. But I chose it, guys, with 80%. Raman: Foresight. Manisha: Yeah, foresight. Raman: In our time we, nobody used to get 80%. 60, 60. But Anand: I don't think they will be of much use. Means it's novelty factor that, uh... means philosophy, AI- Manisha: No, philosophers came as the mother of all science. It's the, it's the- That is a Greek conceptManisha: it's the subject of- That, that, Anand: uh- ... Manisha: you know, from where everything flows. Anand: That Gr- that is a Greek con- concept Manisha: We are great at posing- Yeah. And that is, that, that- Well, one problem is we ask questions. The standard problem with philosophers is they'll, uh, pose a lot of queries with no answers. Anand: That is, that, that is, that is always the- Manisha: But sometimes it is always about the right question.Anand: So, you know, the- Plato's, Raman: Plato's Anand: class of philosophy ... right question. Yes, and like, uh, Aristotle made this stupid statement that political science is master science because in the Greek city estate of Athens, everything was the city estate, so in- Modi will Manisha: agree with this. Anand: So- Manisha: Master. Chanakya Anand: [01:45:00] will agree.Manisha: Chanakya. Anand: But one or two years you study political science, you get- You don't become master ... you get disillusion that it is nothing.Manisha: Great. With that, thank you so much for tuning into our podcast. Need I remind you again? Please pay to keep news free. If you're listening to this podcast on our app player, which hopefully it's functioning smoothly. If you're listening to this as a subscriber, you obviously subscribe to us, so we have you in our fold.Manisha: We are very happy to have that. Thank you so much for your support, but please get more people like you to join the tribe. We need more subscribers like you who find value in independent media to so spread the word of News Laundry. We have a lot of articles and interviews that you can share which are outside the paywall, so maybe that can entice your friends and family to get into the News Laundry fold.Manisha: And if you're listening to this, um, and you're not a subscriber, then please subscribe to News Laundry. Pay to keep news free. It'll go a long way. Thank you. And with that, [01:46:00] I leave you with this song. Do you wanna select, Raman sir, song for the week? Raman: I can't. Manisha: You can select for the idea of justice. Song for justice.Raman: Let me see. Manisha: Yes. Think about it. Okay. You will listen to a song that Raman has chosen. Okay. Thank you, guys. See you next week. song: Yeah.[01:47:00] Manisha: Thank you for your subscription. You're changing the world by changing the way news is funded. For the smoothest News Laundry experience, download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our paywall podcasts. And you'll also get access to all free News Laundry shows. Keep us ad-free and subscriber-funded.Manisha: Help us grow. Tell people who listen to you to pay to keep news free. Subscribe to News Laundry. Keep journalism independent

2026/7/4

Telangana to launch new HYDRA-style task force

We also bring you the latest on the Constitution (130th Amendment) Bill, 2025, on removal of Ministers upon detention.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-06-30/p6ylin03/thenewsminute2026-06-30cv2fx690pt-rr.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutout of Revanth Reddy in the latest edition of Powertrip" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>Welcome to this week’s Powertrip, a political newsletter curated exclusively for subscribers of The News Minute and Newslaundry. This week’s edition is by Dhanya Rajendran, Shabbir Ahmed, and Pooja Prasanna.This week, we learnt about CM Revanth Reddy’s new HYDRA-style task force in Telangana, one that the public is sure to be more invested in.Opposition members fear that the Constitution (130th Amendment) Bill, 2025, on removal of Ministers upon detention, will sail through without proper discussion.In Tamil Nadu, a slew of resignations by AIADMK MLAs has triggered panic within the ruling TVK that heavyweights joining the party would overshadow them. And it has also ended up showing that the TVK’s fight against corruption is a mere act when it comes to inducting new blood into the party. Powertrip is a newsletter that senior political reporters of TNM put together every week.<h2>Inside Track</h2><h4>Exclusive stories, for your eyes only</h4><h3>Revanth’s next HYDRA: Food safety crackdown force</h3>Since it was set up in Telangana, HYDRA has attracted its share of controversy, criticism, and even legal challenges. But if the buzz in government circles is anything to go by, Chief Minister Revanth Reddy has little intention of backing down. In fact, the state is preparing to unveil yet another HYDRA-style enforcement body in the coming days, complete with a similarly punchy acronym.This new task force will shift its focus from encroachments to something far closer to the public’s plate: food manufacturing and quality safety.The move comes on the heels of a series of high-profile crackdowns by H-FAST (Hyderabad Food Adulteration Surveillance Team), a specialised 28-member enforcement unit launched by the Hyderabad City Police in March to tackle food adulteration and unsafe manufacturing practices. Over the past few months, videos released from H-FAST raids, showing everything from unhygienic kitchens to adulterated food products, have repeatedly gone viral on social media, sparking public outrage and renewed scrutiny of the city’s eatery ecosystem.Inspired by the impact of those operations, the proposed task force is expected to bring together officials from multiple departments under a single umbrella. Unlike a purely advisory body, it will also be armed with enforcement powers, allowing it to act directly against violators and tighten oversight of food safety standards across the state.<h3>A committee in name only? </h3>If the proceedings of the Joint Parliamentary Committee examining the Constitution (One Hundred and Thirtieth Amendment) Bill, 2025 are any indication, the government appears determined to push the legislation through with minimal disruption from the Opposition.The bill, which seeks to ensure that Prime Ministers, Chief Ministers, and ministers cannot continue in office after spending 30 consecutive days in custody for offences carrying a punishment of five years or more, was originally referred to a JPC after triggering fierce debate in Parliament. The committee was expected to provide the space for a detailed examination of its legal, constitutional, and political implications.Instead, Opposition members privately complain that the process is increasingly becoming a numbers game.With only three Opposition representatives on the panel, namely Supriya Sule, Asaduddin Owaisi, and Harsimrat Kaur Badal, critics argue that meaningful scrutiny is proving difficult. According to those tracking the committee’s proceedings, members from the ruling party and its allies frequently yield their allotted speaking time to the chair, allowing the committee to move through its agenda swiftly while limiting opportunities for extended discussion.The result, Opposition leaders fear, is that many of their concerns may never find adequate reflection in the committee’s final report. Questions about potential misuse of arrest powers, the impact on federal politics, and safeguards against politically motivated prosecutions deserve extensive discussion. Yet there is growing apprehension that such objections will be condensed, sidelined or omitted altogether.As things stand, the committee appears headed towards endorsing the bill with few, if any, substantive changes. For critics, the exercise increasingly resembles consultation without accommodation and scrutiny without consequence.<h3>TVK’s fight against corruption falls flat </h3>A series of resignations by AIADMK MLAs after the 2026 Tamil Nadu Assembly elections has left the party worried.So far, six MLAs have resigned and four MLAs have joined TVK. Those who resigned recently include prominent leaders such as former Health Minister C Vijayabaskar and former Transport Minister MR Vijayabaskar from Karur.These resignations have triggered a sense of panic within the ruling Tamilaga Vettri Kazhagam, as reports suggest that the MLAs are set to join the party in the presence of TVK president and Chief Minister Joseph Vijay.We hear that a few TVK leaders have expressed their fear and concern that AIADMK heavyweights joining TVK would take away their space. Since leaders like C Vijayabaskar and MR Vijayabaskar are well-established faces in their respective districts, they fear these leaders will overshadow TVK ministers and district secretaries and create their own power centres.On the other hand, TVK also faces questions of morality over inducting C Vijayabaskar, who is one of the main accused in the Gutka scam, into the party. Not only that, Vijayabaskar is under the scanner of central agencies such as the CBI and ED in connection with money laundering allegations. The DVAC has also filed corruption cases against him and conducted searches in the past.If C Vijayabaskar is inducted into the TVK, the party’s claim of fighting corruption falls flat and its poll promise to punish those responsible for plundering the state will be seen as mere election rhetoric.TVK insiders say a cat-and-mouse game is underway between the TVK and the DMK behind the scenes to poach MLAs. The DMK, too, is reaching out to various AIADMK MLAs and functionaries to join the party, but so far the move has not yielded any significant results, except for a few party functionaries.Zero Hour<h4>A political story of public importance</h4><h3><a href="https://scroll.in/article/1093873/why-a-scholar-of-citizenship-is-taking-on-bengal-sir-exclusions">Why a scholar of citizenship is taking on Bengal SIR exclusions</a></h3>The new BJP government is excluding deleted voters from welfare schemes even as most of the 34 lakh appeals filed after the SIR remain undecided.<h2>Powermoves</h2><h5>Top 5 political stories</h5><ol><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/karnataka/ground-report-bidadi-farmers-resist-ai-city-land-acquisition-after-years-under-red-zone">Ground Report: Bidadi farmers resist AI city land acquisition after years under red zone</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/kerala/why-keralas-low-alcohol-liquor-tax-cuts-have-sparked-a-political-row">Why Kerala’s low-alcohol liquor tax cuts have sparked a political row</a></ins> </li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/andhra-pradesh/where-is-sai-krishna-the-disappearance-that-has-shaken-andhra-pradesh-police">Where is Sai Krishna? The disappearance that has shaken Andhra Pradesh Police</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/tamil-nadu/cm-vijays-jana-nayagan-producer-appointed-tns-delhi-representative">CM Vijay's 'Jana Nayagan' producer appointed TN's Delhi representative</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/telangana/telangana-police-ask-x-users-to-take-down-video-of-muslim-school-principals-assault">Telangana: Police ask X users to take down video of Muslim school principal’s assault</a></ins></li></ol>

2026/7/1

Dubious MoUs, paper investors: The art of adding zeroes to UP’s investment story

The Yogi government inked deals for investments worth thousands of crores – in some cases, with companies with no traceable corporate record and questionable promoters.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-06-30/u8iwhb8w/NLVisualByManjul15062026.png?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption> (Manjul)</figcaption></figure>In February 2023, an Indian business group signed agreements with the Uttar Pradesh government at its Global Investor Summit to invest an eye-popping Rs 1.65 lakh crore in the state “to set up semiconductors, display fab and chip units,” among other projects. Another domestic company signed an MoU (memorandum of understanding) for projects worth Rs 18,000 crore in Ghaziabad and Gautam Buddha Nagar. A third MoU had a college committing to invest Rs 40,000 crore in the state, while a relatively smaller but still considerable Rs 1,400-crore investment agreement was inked with an NGO. These agreements, along with others, add up to the Rs 33.5 lakh crore of pledged investments the Yogi Adityanath government tom-tommed at the conclusion of its 2023 Global Investors Summit. That figure is also used to sell UP’s vision of becoming a $1 trillion <ins><a href="https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/target-of-one-trillion-dollar-aimed-by-global-investors-summit-uttar-pradesh-government/article65879574.ece">economy </a></ins>by 2030. What doesn’t add up is the background of some of the companies and organisations that have signed these mega investment agreements. RG Strategies Group, the group that entered into MoUs of close to Rs 1.65 lakh crore, has no traceable corporate record in India. It is run by a family linked to 2BE Educate (India) Private Limited, the company that pledged to invest Rs 18,000 crore. This company is yet to file even a balance sheet and is being shut, according to its director.The educational institute that planned to invest Rs 40,000 crore has only 600 students and a rather modest balance sheet, while the NGO which signed the Rs 1,400 crore MoU proved remarkably difficult to pin down, with an individual claiming its director owes multiple people money.  An investigation by Newslaundry reveals extraordinary and intriguing discrepancies like these, forming a pattern that runs through dozens of investment agreements the Yogi Adityanath government has paraded. The <ins><a href="https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/uttar-pradesh-government-cancels-rs-25-000-crore-mou-with-puch-ai-11272648">collapse of the Rs 25,000 crore Puch AI deal</a></ins> with the UP government earlier this year had raised questions about how investor credentials are vetted. This investigation suggests those questions extend far beyond a single startup. And while MoUs signed at investor summits are not legal commitments, these findings raise a bigger question about the actual utility of these agreements beyond generating favourable headlines, and highlight the wide gap between promise and delivery.The sourceAnswering a question in the Uttar Pradesh Legislative Council last year, Industrial Development Minister Nand Gopal Gupta ‘Nandi’ gave details on all the MoUs signed in the 2023 summit.<iframe class="trinity-player trinity-iframe" src="https://trinitymedia.ai/player/trinity-i/2900013399/?pageURL=https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/30/dubious-mous-paper-investors-the-art-of-adding-zeroes-to-ups-investment-story&readContentType=URL" style="border: 0; width: 100% !important; height: 90px !important" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe> Out of these, he said 7,382 had commenced “commercial production”, representing Rs 2.78 lakh crore of investment and 15.53 lakh jobs. In the Council, Nandi tabled lists of the companies that had signed MoUs and those said to have begun commercial production. Newslaundry examined the entities on those lists, starting with those yet to begin commercial production.Our investigation proves that at least in some instances, headline investment figures may have been announced long before the credibility, finances or execution capacity of the entities involved were meaningfully vetted. Mega MoUs, no MCA recordConsider 2BE Educate (India) Private Limited, which inked an MoU worth Rs 18,000 crore across Ghaziabad and Gautam Buddha Nagar. Incorporated in 2021, it is yet to file a balance sheet, as per MCA records. Its registered office is a flat on rent in Ghaziabad, and the society’s head said the premises had never housed an office. At a second address linked to director Praveen Goel, a security guard said Goel had vacated three years ago. The chartered accountant who signed the company incorporation papers for 2BE Educate (India), said the owners had come to his office to set up the company, but there had been “no subsequent company activity”. The firm’s two listed directors, Praveen and Pushkar Goel, are father and son. Another MoU identifies Praveen as chairman and CEO of the ‘RG Strategies Group’ – Newslaundry could not find any corporate records in India for a business group by that name. Pushkar identifies himself as the co-founder of this entity on <ins><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/pushkar-goel-b02b931b4?utm_source=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=member_ios">LinkedIn</a></ins>.The absence is bizarre, considering the Yogi government inked two of its biggest MoUs with this group – one for Rs 90,000 crore and another for Rs 75,000, together amounting to nearly Rs 1.65 lakh crore. Pushkar told Newslaundry that RG Strategies is a UK-based company. But the MoU calls it a company registered under Indian law. The address listed on the RG Strategies Group MoU is Crossing Republik in Ghaziabad – a locality housing the flat that is 2BE Educate’s address. Pushkar’s LinkedIn account also spells out that the RG in RG Strategies Group stands for Rekha Goel – his mother’s name.What were the mega MoUs for? In a LinkedIn <ins><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/posts/pushkar-goel-b02b931b4_linkedin-linkedincommunity-semiconductorindia-activity-7401239363390464000-1Ac4">post</a></ins>, Pushkar said this was for India’s “largest semiconductor and display fab project”. (For comparison, India’s largest semiconductor project <ins><a href="https://www.cnbc.com/2025/09/23/india-is-betting-18-billion-to-build-a-chip-powerhouse-heres-what-it-means.html">with private investment</a></ins> is a Rs 91,000 crore plant in Gujarat, being developed in collaboration between Tata and Taiwan’s Powerchip Semiconductor Manufacturing Corp.) In a little-known <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmNh3YqZuik">podcast</a></ins>, Pushkar portrayed himself as a major business tycoon, claiming to run a massive operation in Kochi employing 5,000 people. He also criticised the UP government for allegedly failing to provide him space to open a paper mill because of which he apparently had to move business to Kerala.The company’s <ins><a href="https://www.instagram.com/rgstrategiesgroup?igsh=anByZTBweWZ4a3B4">Instagram </a></ins>page posted AI-generated pictures of the group’s senior management, including executive director, CEO, chief marketing officer, and corporate officer. Newslaundry could not find any of these accounts on LinkedIn. Pushkar Goel’s <ins><a href="https://www.instagram.com/pushkargoel?igsh=bW93cW1qZzV3Zzg1">Instagram </a></ins>page has pinned stories of a $3.2-3.5 billion takeover of “Geno UZ, USA” by RG Strategies Group, about which there is no credible reportage online.On RG Strategies Group’s Instagram page, there are <ins><a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/CoPUm4kqhcN/">two</a></ins> <ins><a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/CoPcX0gKwKL/">posts</a></ins> of the MoU with the UP government. Pushkar’s Instagram has him <ins><a href="https://www.instagram.com/pushkargoel/">posing</a></ins> with prominent personalities, including PM Modi, Jay Shah, Virat Kohli, and French President Emmanuel Macron.<blockquote>The Invest UP department that is in-charge of the investment summit said the “existing asset base or past turnover of an entity may not, by itself, fully reflect proposed investment capacity, as projects may be funded through equity, debt, institutional finance, joint ventures, strategic partnerships or phased capital expenditure”. However, it did not respond to Newslaundry’s specific questions about the entities mentioned in this report, including RG Strategies.</blockquote>Pushkar also faces an <ins><a href="https://theprint.in/india/delhi-hotel-files-case-against-man-for-duping-rs-3-65-lakh/1617977/">FIR in Delhi</a></ins> over a complaint by ITC Maurya. The allegation is that he checked into two rooms and used a fake unique transaction number to tell the front office he had paid for the stay. The case, filed on June 6, 2024, is pending before Patiala House Courts. A chargesheet has been filed and the next hearing is on July 14 this year.Newslaundry spoke to Pushkar Goel over the phone. When asked about the MoU signed with 2BE Educate, Goel said, “Yes, it is my company. We signed the MoU. But subsequently, we did not conduct business via this company. Instead, we operated through RG Strategies Group.”Asked about the existence of the company, Goel said, “It is a US-based company. There are several other people involved in it besides me.”Questioned about his social media posts and pictures with prominent personalities such as PM Modi, he said, “Why couldn’t I have met him?” Since Pushkar said his team will respond to Newslaundry’s questions, a questionnaire was sent to him on WhatsApp and email, including queries about the lack of corporate records for RG Strategies. An email response said the address referred to in the MoU was that “of an advisor associated with the group and should not be construed as representing the group’s operational headquarters”. There was no clear response to the specific question about the lack of MCA records for RG Strategies.Pushkar made his Instagram account private after the questions were sent. This report will be updated if a response to other queries is received.Mystery NGOThen consider the Rs 1,400 crore agreement the government lists in Gautam Buddha Nagar with ‘Palak – A Human Welfare Society’. Palak is a non-governmental organisation. The NGO’s director is Sanjeev Kumar Juneja.Pinning this NGO down meant following a long trail. Two addresses appear online, one listed in Palak’s own records in Hauz Rani and one listed by another linked NGO in Mehrauli. At Hauz Rani, the owner said no one named Sanjeev Kumar Juneja had ever lived there and no NGO had ever operated from the premises. At the Mehrauli address the door was locked; a guard said a woman lived there, and took down a number to pass on. Juneja’s name also surfaced against a firm, Aeyon Foods Private Limited, registered at Radhey Shyam Chambers in Old Delhi’s Naya Bazar. He was not to be found there either. The chambers’ owner claimed people regularly came looking for him. “He ran off with Rs 25,000 of mine. Apart from me, people from Karnal also come looking for him; he owes them Rs 15 lakh, and they have even filed a lawsuit,” he alleged.Juneja’s voter ID card submitted along with his corporate records led to a residential address in Malviya Nagar. Its owner, Raghav Sharma, claimed Juneja had stayed three or four months, not paid rent, and left. A call to Juneja’s number listed on caller ID app TrueCaller was answered by a woman who declined to give her name, described herself as a distant relative, asked where the information had come from, and urged that the story be dropped, saying Juneja did not wish to meet. Questions were then sent to this number. A response is yet to be received.A college with 600 students has a Rs 40,000 crore MoUThe questionable credentials on the MoU list do not end there.Against <ins><a href="https://vasudevtiwaricollege.in/annual-accounts-details.php">Pt Vasudev Tiwari Skill University </a></ins>in Jhansi the government recorded a proposed investment of Rs 40,000 crore. But this is not a large or well-known university. It is a college affiliated with Bundelkhand University, offering a total of three B Ed, B Com and BA courses, with a total strength of 600 students as per its website. Its most recent published balance sheet, up to FY 2022-2023, suggests its financial position is inadequate for its ambitions. It has total assets of <ins><a href="https://vasudevtiwaricollege.in/st_upload/aboutdata/BALANCE%20SHEET%202022-23%20new%20FY.pdf">around </a></ins>Rs 4 crore, including bank deposits, cash and fixed assets. Its profit stood at Rs 23.6 lakh. It even listed utensils worth Rs 3,000 as part of its assets, making the Rs 40,000 crore look rather ambitious.<blockquote>This is not an audit of all 19,250 MoUs signed at the 2023 summit. Nor does the existence of an MoU guarantee that an investment will materialise. An MoU is, by definition, only an expression of intent.</blockquote>The same college has proposed to set up the Hazari Sayed Abaz Ali Saha Rahmatulla Skill University in Jhansi at Rs 3,000 crore. Asked about the finance for the MoU, the college head Abhishek Tiwari said, “We have acquired some land and are raising funds, that is where we are facing some difficulties.”A Vatican for Hindus, but ‘lack of govt cooperation’Two more MoUs, of Rs 20,000 crore each in Mahoba and Chitrakoot, are recorded against the Sanatan Dharma Foundation, described as an NGO devoted to the cause of Sanatan Dharma. It is headed by Sudesh Agarwal of the Giant Group of Industries and started with Rs 5 crore of capital in 2022.However, according to the organisation there is only one MoU in Chitrakoot, to set up a Sanatan Dharma Holy City. When Newslaundry called the head office number listed on the NGO’s website, a man who identified himself as Ved and claimed to be overseeing operations, said they plan to develop a Vatican-like holy city in Chitrakoot. He said the project is yet to materialise on the ground because “of a lack of government cooperation”.The NGO’s <ins><a href="https://sanatandharmafoundation.com/img/Sanadan%20Dharma-%20Presentation-%20English.pdf">website </a></ins>states, “At this stage, we do not know how much funding shall be needed to build the holy city, but it is estimated to be not less than Rs 20,000 crore. Funding shall be raised through contributions, donations, loans, equity, debentures etc. All avenues of funding shall be explored. We do not see problems in raising funds.” Another MoU worth Rs 553 crore was inked in 2023 with a company named Jhanvika Labs Private Limited, but this firm was untraceable online or in MCA records. The government listed <ins><a href="https://x.com/_InvestUP/status/2018606788988522726">the same MoU</a></ins> among the 11 signed at the Uttar Pradesh <ins><a href="https://invest.up.gov.in/pharma-conclave/">Pharma Conclave</a></ins> held in February this year.A Rs 2,400 crore MoU in Lucknow is recorded in 2023 against Humsafar Dealer Private Limited. The company’s majority stakeholder, Nandkishore Chaturvedi, was already <ins><a href="https://www.amarujala.com/lucknow/lucknow-news-lucknow-news-c-13-1-lko1021-540343-2023-12-21">facing</a></ins> a money laundering case when the MoU was signed. He was later absconding. The company has now changed its name to True - Live Homes Private Limited.The ‘grounded’ projects The other claim is about projects that have already begun commercial production, or are in the grounding stage. <blockquote>Asked about MoUs with such entities, and whether a company’s financial health must be examined before proposals are signed, former union finance secretary Subhash Chandra Garg said, “That is the standard practice. However, at investor summits these days, such due diligence is often overlooked in the rush to meet targets and project impressive investment figures.”</blockquote>Rinku Dairy is recorded as proposing to invest Rs 400 crore in Bareilly and Rs 300 crore in Shahjahanpur, with the grounded list describing operational milk, cheese, khoya and chilling plants and 700 jobs.Shahjahanpur Dairy Officer Abhishek Singh told Newslaundry that, although the company had signed an MoU, work had not begun because its loan had not come through.Obdu Digital Health Care Pvt Ltd is recorded as pledging to set up a Rs 3,350 crore “Digital Doctor Clinics” venture said to be capable of employing 70,000 people, but the company was incorporated only in January 2024. Newslaundry earlier <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/11/rs-3350-cr-mou-70000-jobs-a-yogi-govt-ai-investment-deal-is-now-under-fraud-cloud">detailed</a></ins> how the Digital Doctor Clinics venture is now under the shadow of an investigation for fraud.Reshu Advertising Private Limited of Muzaffarnagar inked an MoU for Rs 600 crore and 150 jobs to manufacture “Diwali Puja boxes”, but Newslaundry found it to be a public-relations and printing agency, with annual revenue of Rs 4.7 crore to Rs 6.4 crore. Company director Satya Prakash Rishu said he had shut down the venture to produce Diwali boxes. “That business of mine wasn’t successful, so I shut it down.” Asked about his investment, he said, “I thought it would become huge because nearly a billion people in this country celebrate Diwali. We launched it in the presence of prominent seers, but it just didn’t work out.”Asked about MoUs with such entities, and whether a company’s financial health must be examined before proposals are signed, former union finance secretary Subhash Chandra Garg said, “That is the standard practice. However, at investor summits these days, such due diligence is often overlooked in the rush to meet targets and project impressive investment figures.”The Invest UP department that is in-charge of the investment summit said the “existing asset base or past turnover of an entity may not, by itself, fully reflect proposed investment capacity, as projects may be funded through equity, debt, institutional finance, joint ventures, strategic partnerships or phased capital expenditure”. “Wherever any discrepancy, misrepresentation, non-implementation or adverse information comes to notice, the matter is examined as per applicable rules. Proposals that do not meet eligibility or compliance requirements do not qualify for incentives or further benefits,” it said. However, it did not respond to Newslaundry’s specific questions about the entities mentioned in this report, including RG Strategies. (Read the full response <ins><a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M7q8m06oVxIQVaZkNxFScz7SbMqP6BEmi7PrVwXvwLQ/edit?tab=t.0">here</a></ins>.)Newslaundry sent questions to several other companies and individuals named in this report, as well as the UP Industrial Development Minister Nand Gopal Gupta ‘Nandi’. Responses received will be added. Stay tuned for the next part that tracks how Uttarakhand redefines investment.

2026/6/30

Hafta 595: Ram Mandir donation scandal and why corruption no longer shapes public opinion

The podcast where we discuss the week’s news. <figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-16/egtq656l/HAFTA-NEW.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="New Hafta cartoon featuring cutouts of Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal, and Abhinandan Sekhri. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>This week on Hafta, Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande and Shardool Katyayan are joined by senior journalist Chitra Subramaniam and Newslaundry’s senior reporter Basant Kumar.   This week's episode featured a wide-ranging discussion on corruption, accountability, investigative journalism, and alleged embezzlement of donations made to the Ram Temple in Ayodhya.The conversation began with a debate on whether corruption remains a political issue in India. Drawing on her experience exposing the Bofors scandal, Chitra Subramaniam argued that a journalist's role is not to bring governments down but to pursue the facts relentlessly. “I was not looking to bring a government down, I was just going fact after fact, and then the government fell by the weight of their own contradictions,” she said. Emphasising the larger purpose behind journalism, she added, “It’s my country that matters… good journalists are patriotic because they are doing it out of love for their country.”Abhinandan raised concerns about the growing public indifference to corruption despite repeated exposés. Reflecting on the current political climate, he remarked, “Corruption was a huge issue. I think what this government has successfully done is kill all hope.” He argued that when citizens feel there will be no consequences for wrongdoing, cynicism takes over and accountability weakens.Manisha highlighted how the media ecosystem has changed over the past decade. According to her, major investigations once gained traction because television channels amplified newspaper reports and kept pressure on governments. “Now, with that amplification layer gone, a lot of stories make a splash in our ecosystem, but they die.”The discussion then shifted to Ayodhya, where Newslaundry reporter Basant had spent five days investigating allegations of theft and irregularities linked to donations to the Ram Temple.Sharing public sentiment from Ayodhya, Basant said residents were angry and disillusioned. He recounted conversations with locals who felt that stealing from donations made in faith crossed a moral line. One local religious leader told him that even thieves often donate to temples in the hope of gaining virtue, making the alleged embezzlement particularly disturbing.All this and more.<iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ec3d9497cef7479d2ef4798/6a3f68040ad3211686330ea4" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/CA7veXBmDtE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA7veXBmDtE" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>Hafta letters: <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/27/hafta-letters-choosing-nl-over-godi-media-tmc-defections-and-book-club-recommendations">Choosing NL over Godi media, TMC defections and book club recommendations</a></ins>If you want to write to Hafta, <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/podcast-letters">click here</a></ins>. Click <ins><a href="http://newslaundry.com/sena">here</a></ins> to contribute to our Sena project. Check out the<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/store?routeName=NlStore"> Newslaundry store</a></ins> and flaunt your love for independent media. Download the<ins><a href="http://www.newslaundry.com/download-app"> Newslaundry app</a></ins>. Song:  <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWrO9kUJbkc&list=RDLWrO9kUJbkc&start_radio=1">Waqt Ki Hera Pheri Hai</a></ins>Timecodes00:00:00 - Introductions and announcements00:03:23  - Headlines00:11:57  – Corruption is cyclical ?00:33:06 – Chitra’s recommendation00:36:04 - Ram mandir donation embezzlement 01:00:13 – Basant’s recommendation    01:02:32  – Abuse by political 01:09:25   - Letters 01:20:06 - RecommendationsReferences<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/book-club">NL -TNM Book Club registration</a></ins><ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/mmmk">NL -TNM Joint Subscription</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/23/no-fir-culprits-will-escape-ayodhya-fumes-over-ram-mandir-scam">No FIR, ‘culprits will escape’: Ayodhya fumes over Ram Mandir ‘scam’</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/podcasts/south-central">South Central</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/nl-sena/urban-indias-elite-takeover">Urban’s Elite Takeover</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.amazon.in/Boforsgate-Journalists-Pursuit-Chitra-Subramaniam-ebook/dp/B0DWSR26X6?ref_=ast_author_mpb">Boforsgate: A Journalist's Pursuit of Truth</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2025/03/23/chitra-subramaniam-on-exposing-bofors-facing-backlash-and-why-she-worked-with-arnab">Chitra Subramaniam on exposing Bofors, facing backlash, and why she worked with Arnab</a></ins>—------------------------------------------------------------------------------RecommendationsAbhinandan<ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRUTWluKRW8">Main Vapas aaunga</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.npr.org/2026/06/19/nx-s1-5863604/alien-monopsony-wages-inequality">The real horror of ‘Alien’ and how it explains why we’re not paid enough</a></ins>Manisha<ins><a href="https://webtv.un.org/en/asset/k1g/k1gxf0y9ld">The UN Human Rights Council press conference</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/25/how-gay-are-you-how-politician-are-you-anish-gawande-on-the-choices-facing-queer-leaders">‘How gay are you, how politician are you?’: Anish Gawande on the choices facing queer leaders</a></ins>Shardool Katyayan <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/15/cheetahs-in-kuno-lions-in-waiting-inside-indias-most-contested-conservation-project">Cheetahs in Kuno, lions in waiting: Inside India’s most contested conservation project</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1049413/">UP</a></ins><ins><a href="https://store.epicgames.com/p/alan-wake-2">Alan Wake 2</a></ins>Basant <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRUTWluKRW8">Main Vapas aaunga</a></ins>Chitra Subramaniam <ins><a href="https://www.amazon.in/After-Nations-Unmaking-Commonwealth-Democracy/dp/0670092568">After Nations</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.rt.com/shows/going-underground/">Going Underground</a></ins>Check out <ins><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VCmV6yr5t1LHE77Xp5-cYhWrQSkhW3A8nix310MvRQU/edit?usp=sharing">previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters</a>. </ins>Produced by Amit Pandey with production assistance from Sourav. Sound by Anil Kumar.Hafta 595[00:00:00] manisha: This is a News Laundry podcast and you're listening to NL Hafta[00:00:12] Abhinandan: अंग्रेज अपना लगान और News Laundry अपना हफ्ता कभी नहीं छोड़ते। Welcome to another episode of हफ्ता। We recording this on the 26th of June on Friday at 11 in the morning Today on the panel we have in the studio Shardul Katayan. [00:00:30] Welcome, Shardul. [00:00:30] Shardool : Hello. [00:00:31] Abhinandan: Manisha Pandey. [00:00:32] manisha: Hello. [00:00:33] Abhinandan: And joining us from Bangalore, star investigative journalist, legend, et cetera, et cetera, Chitra Subramatham.[00:00:40] Abhinandan: Mm. Thank you so much, Chitra, for joining us. [00:00:42] Chitra: Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. [00:00:44] Abhinandan: Although everybody is watching and hearing knows who you are, but we have a tradition of introducing the guest in with the formal resume, which may or may not be, uh, all-encompassing, but we will announce what we have. [00:01:00] Chitra Subramatham is an award-winning investigative journalist.[00:01:02] Abhinandan: She is very well known for exposing the Bofors corruption scandal in the '80s. It's one of India's biggest political controversies, which actually led to the downfall of the Rajiv Gandhi government. She is reporting from Geneva, and she lives between Geneva and India now. Over a career spanning more than four decades, she's worked with organizations championing investigative journalism, transparency, and accountability, and she's also the author of the bestseller Bofors Gate: A [00:01:30] Journalist's Pursuit of Truth, which chronicles her investigation into the scandal.[00:01:34] Abhinandan: The link is in the show notes. You can click on that and order the book, so... And I highly recommend you do. So thank you for joining us, Chitra. [00:01:44] Chitra: Thank you, journalist Abhinandan. [00:01:46] Abhinandan: I'm actually not a journalist. I'm just management, you know, which is n- not the most respectable of jobs. But before we get into the discussion, let me tell you what all we'll [00:02:00] be dis- discussing.[00:02:01] Abhinandan: Also joining us later in the show will be our very own Basant, who was in Ayodhya reporting on the now much talked about, not enough, Ayodhya theft [00:02:14] manisha: of- Chanda [00:02:14] Abhinandan: chori ... chanda chori. He will tell us what he found there. And might I remind you, we had also broken the story several years ago of the land scam, and I think it's perfectly legitimate calling it a scam.[00:02:28] Abhinandan: We'll talk about that. We will talk [00:02:30] about whether corruption is even an issue today. Mo- uh, what's the Madhya Pradesh, uh- [00:02:35] manisha: Mohan [00:02:36] Abhinandan: Yadav Mohan Yadav ... Mohan Yadav is being defended by the BJP. Yeah. This doesn't seem to, uh, have any impact. There is enough evidence of corruption happening. Is it even an issue, and why has that changed?[00:02:47] Abhinandan: And we will also be discussing the propriety, or is it important the language that politicians use? This is in the context of recently, uh, Donald Trump calling the, uh, past president [00:03:00] of America a son of a bitch at a formal function, and, uh, Sanjay Raut in a press conference using the word gandu and an even worse word, which is too much even for me.[00:03:12] Abhinandan: Imagine that. Bloodish. Even ... So we will discuss these things. Uh, but let's get to the headlines first. Manisha, can you please do the honors? [00:03:23] manisha: Yes[00:03:27] manisha: An investigation by The Indian Express [00:03:30] has revealed that family members and real estate firms linked to MP CM Mohan Yadav purchased at least 160 acres of land in Ujjain right before major government infrastructure projects and land use changes were announced for those areas. In other news, a first information report was registered against eight persons for embezzlement of donations made to the Ram Temple in Ayodhya.[00:03:51] manisha: In response to the growing controversy, the PMO has reportedly stepped in to seek an official report on the Ayodhya temple theft. The Supreme Court [00:04:00] ruled that the right to walk safely on designated footpaths is a fundamental right, stressing that pedestrians must take priority over vehicles. We must pat our backs because we had a whole- Yes, we did [00:04:10] Abhinandan: this story when it was not sexy- [00:04:11] manisha: Yeah[00:04:12] Abhinandan: and it was not topped up. It was one of the stories. It was [00:04:13] manisha: not topped up, but it was the most engaged with story. It was very strange because everyone would really engage with that NL Sena promo that we put out every time- Yes ... but then no one topped it up. [00:04:23] Abhinandan: There's a QR code, you can still top it up. We did this story months ago Across cities that how people- [00:04:30] And [00:04:30] manisha: everyone wrote in saying Bangalore also, Bombay also[00:04:32] manisha: well, [00:04:32] Abhinandan: it's everywhere, but not enough people supported us. [00:04:35] manisha: Shame on you. [00:04:37] Abhinandan: Well- [00:04:37] manisha: And we are so great ... [00:04:37] Abhinandan: she said that, I did not. She's shaming the subscribers. Hau, Hauji [00:04:42] manisha: kapoji. God, I have ... I don't think I've heard that in 20 years. What? Hauji kapoji. [00:04:46] Abhinandan: I've never heard it. Have, you have... you haven't hung out with young people like [00:04:49] manisha: me?[00:04:49] manisha: I've heard this like- I have never heard it ... I think 20 years ago I heard this from a cousin. [00:04:53] Shardool : I, I, I don't know what it means. Well, [00:04:55] Abhinandan: now you know. No, I don't. It's You see- I don't ... always learning new things with Abhinav and Aniket. Of [00:04:59] Shardool : course. [00:05:00] Hauji [00:05:00] Abhinandan: kapoji is when someone does something shameful, you say Hauji kapoji.[00:05:03] manisha: It's just... I think I last heard it when I was in fourth standard. [00:05:08] Shardool : Is it, is it from hodgepodge? [00:05:09] manisha: No, no, [00:05:10] Abhinandan: Hauji- Bhai itna to dissect mat [00:05:13] Shardool : karo yaar. Yaar, yaar tum keh rahe ho ki matlab bhainse ko takkar mat maro. That's how my brain works . Haan, sir. [00:05:17] manisha: Okay, at least 32 people have died and more than 700 have been injured after two powerful earthquakes struck Venezuela.[00:05:26] manisha: Oh. Videos shared on social media showed collapsed buildings and [00:05:30] damage at airport in the capital. Rescue teams are continuing operations to pull people trapped under the rubble. [00:05:35] Clip: Mm. [00:05:36] manisha: The ED has launched a massive investigation into gold exporter Rajesh Exports Limited, conducting searches across nine locations in Bengaluru, Mumbai under FEMA.[00:05:44] manisha: In tragic news from across the country, or in news that shows how cheap life is in India, three separate incidents have once again raised serious questions. In Lucknow, a massive fire at a commercial building housing an animation coaching [00:06:00] center and library killed 15 people. Most of these people were young students.[00:06:03] Clip: Mm. [00:06:03] manisha: In Kolkata, at least 11 people died after an under-construction warehouse collapsed. Meanwhile, in Tamil Nadu's Tiruvallur district, an ammonia gas leak at a private seafood processing unit claimed the lives of 10 migrant women workers and left dozens more hospitalized with severe respiratory distress.[00:06:22] Abhinandan: And there's another report of bonded labor being just released from a warehouse where they were chained and given one meal [00:06:30] a day. [00:06:30] manisha: God. [00:06:31] Abhinandan: And pit bulls were kept in the compound so they couldn't escape. Really, it's the very- Some, some primitive practices- [00:06:39] manisha: Mm ... [00:06:39] Abhinandan: you hear about. [00:06:40] Shardool : It's dehumanizing. [00:06:42] Abhinandan: Mm, and it's, [00:06:44] manisha: yeah.[00:06:44] manisha: NGOs receiving foreign funding will now have to disclose whether the organization or any of its key office bearers published a book, magazine, or newspaper articles during the year. This will also be re- they will also be required to provide details of their social media accounts and websites under new rules [00:07:00] notified by the center.[00:07:01] manisha: On RSS will not be part of this NGO, I think. Mm. They will be exempt from all this requirement. Punjab CM Bhagwant Mann has denied appearing in a controversial viral video linked to remarks about Sikh gurus. The row escalated. Aam Aadmi Party claimed the video was fabricated using a custom-made silicon mask resembling Mann.[00:07:21] manisha: And- [00:07:21] Abhinandan: And they've released a video of that also? [00:07:24] manisha: And meanwhile, then there's an Haryana police FIR against the guys who released the forensic [00:07:30] report, and one of them has said that we were f- uh, forced to forge the report. So there's Haryana versus BJP happening. And meanwhile, I think the, all the Sikh, um, the Shiromani Akali Dal, all these guys have, like, called him Guru Dhokhi and all.[00:07:46] manisha: Yeah. So it's a full on war up. [00:07:49] Clip: Correct. [00:07:49] manisha: The Tamil Nadu government has moved the Supreme Court against a Madras High Court order allowing devotees to light a lamp at a stone pillar on Tiruparankundram Hill in Madurai. [00:08:00] The High Court has said that you should light a diya and that it does not impede the rights of Muslims living there.[00:08:05] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:08:06] manisha: Heavy monsoon rains have triggered flash floods and landslides across Arunachal Pradesh, leaving one person dead, four others missing. Some crazy visuals coming from there. [00:08:15] Abhinandan: Yeah. [00:08:15] manisha: Six districts have been cut off while roads, bridges, and homes have suffered extensive damage. A UN commission has accused the Israeli milit- military of deliberately targeting Palestinian children as part of what it described as acts of genocide.[00:08:28] manisha: According to the commission, more than [00:08:30] 20,000 children have been killed and over 44,000 injured in Gaza since October 2023. [00:08:35] Abhinandan: Mm. Keir [00:08:37] manisha: Starmer has announced he will step down as Britain's prime minister. His exit follows a string of crushing local election defeats, high-profile cabinet resignations, and a direct challenge from within his party.[00:08:48] manisha: That's it for the headlines. [00:08:50] Abhinandan: Right. And, uh, before we get into the discussion, I just wanna tell everybody watching that we have our book club, [00:09:00] first book club meeting, the News Minute and News Laundry Book Club that we have launched after suggestions that came from you. This is another of those Little projects of News Laundry and News Minute that germinated from an email from subscribers saying, "Please why don't you start a book club?"[00:09:17] Abhinandan: Uh, which had come on the Awful and Awesome saying that instead of discussing only films, we should discuss books. And then I- idea evolved to instead of you and Rajshi discussing books, you know, one Punjabi who'd never have read any, and [00:09:30] one Bengali who'd only have read Bengali authors. Why don't you involve us?[00:09:33] Abhinandan: Interesting. So, so Chitra of course, good South Indian would have read many non-Bengali authors as well. Yeah. Uh, so we are having our first meeting, let me make sure I get this right since I get so many things wrong. On July the 5th- Mm ... at 6:30 PM Indian Standard Time at Depot 48, New Delhi, where we dive into A Suitable Boy.[00:09:55] Abhinandan: Yes. We'll be discussing A Suitable Boy with fellow book lovers. You can hear what Manisha has to say, [00:10:00] you can hear what I have to say if you are con- at all interested. To join the discussion, simply register through the link in the show notes. Once you've signed up, there'll be a link in the show notes here.[00:10:11] Abhinandan: All details will be delivered straight to your inbox. Come, read, reflect, and exchange ideas with your tribe. So do join our book club. This is an extra layer of subscription plus, plus. So click on the link and join our book club, [00:10:30] and, uh, we will cut to a promo so you can even get more enticed into joining it[00:10:39] manisha: When was the last time you did something for the first time, like having a conversation with a complete stranger? [00:10:46] Book Club sting : Who does that anymore, talking to a stranger? It is so, so, so awkward. [00:10:51] manisha: Why on earth would they be interested in talking to you or me? [00:10:55] Book Club sting : Or worst of all, what if people are actually more interesting on a reel on our [00:11:00] phones?[00:11:00] Book Club sting : They usually are. [00:11:01] manisha: Excuses, excuses, excuses. Come on, we know we are all tired of endless doom scrolling and want something real. [00:11:08] Book Club sting : And you know what's real? Books. [00:11:12] manisha: Real and a really great way of striking conversations. That's exactly what we wanna do with The News Laundry and News Minute Book [00:11:21] Book Club sting : Club. Get people to bond the classic good old way, over a book.[00:11:25] manisha: You know if you like the book and someone else likes it too, you're gonna get along. [00:11:29] Book Club sting : [00:11:30] Agreeing on your favorite characters, the best plot twists, and disagreeing on how the book ends- [00:11:34] manisha: That's the stuff of great friendships. So come on, join us [00:11:38] Book Club sting : Come break the algorithm. [00:11:40] manisha: Let's talk books[00:11:47] manisha: All NCR subscribers must come. If you're in Noida, Gurgaon or Delhi, please come. [00:11:51] Abhinandan: Yes. Please register first. Don't just land up- Yeah ... then we may run out of space. [00:11:55] manisha: So register and [00:11:56] Abhinandan: come. Register, then we'll tell you if there's space. If there isn't, then we'll create more space. And even if you're [00:12:00] not in Delhi, you can join via- [00:12:02] manisha: Online[00:12:02] Abhinandan: online. We will be having Zoom, so you guys can discuss no matter where you are. That's the whole idea of creating this community. Okay, with that, uh, let's get into the discussion. Thanks, uh, for joining us, Chitra. Let me... You know, we've had you, uh, on Hafta before. In fact, there's a very good interview of Madhu with Chitra and also Manisha with Chitra.[00:12:23] Abhinandan: The link to both those interviews will also be there in the show notes. You can check out those detailed interviews about Bofors, where Ma- [00:12:30] uh, Chitra has told us about the dangers she faced, the kind of, uh, you know, abandonment she faced of people saying, "Hello, bhai. We don't want anything to do with you."[00:12:41] Abhinandan: So you can check all that out. But Chitra, today, can you tell our audience what... You know, you've seen politics for decades. You have seen many scams break, have consequences, broken one of the biggest stories yourself. At what stages was [00:13:00] corruption a big enough issue for someone to resign? At what stage was corruption a big enough issue for a government to fall?[00:13:06] Abhinandan: At what stage was it not? And what determines these things? Is it cyclical? Is it a trend that comes and goes? What determines that is a scam big enough for heads to roll? [00:13:18] Chitra: It ... This bit about cyclical, I think it's what decides, uh, why a government goes is first the facts and how, how shame- how shameless you are or how, how much shame you [00:13:30] have, right?[00:13:31] Chitra: But, um, um, I, I don't think it's for a journalist to decide, um, uh, uh, whether a government should go or not. I think it's for the facts to decide. Mm. Because if a journalist decides that, then the journalist has an agenda, which is the worst thing that can happen to us, right? We continue to- Mm ... come up with fact after fact, and then the person that you're asking[00:13:55] Chitra: Like in this case, you spoke about Bofors. Among the case of Bofors, I was not [00:14:00] looking to bring a government down, I was just going fact after fact, and then the government fell by the weight of their own contradictions. Mm-hmm. So, but then once the government fell, I didn't stop. I wanted to get the, the point where I get the transfer of documents to India.[00:14:18] Chitra: So that to me was the final phase, and that was like eight years after the government fell. So then it also comes down to your personal commitment. Why are you doing this story? Mm-hmm. And I think I told Manisha as well [00:14:30] that what ... And, and Madhu that what is, what matters to me was India. You know? It, it's governments come and governments go, and, uh, it's my country that matters, and this might sound nice and patriotic, but I am very patriotic.[00:14:42] Chitra: Mm. And I think it ... I think somewhere journalists, good journalists are also patriotic, because they're doing it out of the, out of just for, you know, for love and, and for what ... And they're doing it out of the love for their country. And before I come to this, uh, thing about [00:15:00] Madhya Pradesh, let me tell you that the other story where I did with, where, where the chief minister went in literally 24 hours was Madhav Singh Solanki.[00:15:07] Chitra: You know, when I discovered that he had tried to stop the Bofors story by passing a note to his counterpart in Davos, that, that story he resigned in 24 hours And today I see that, uh, that, that Mr. Pradhan, the education minister, is not resigning. I mean, there's no ... You know, it's, it's a side issue, but it's also comes down to corruption in the, in [00:15:30] the Indian education system.[00:15:31] Song : Hmm. [00:15:32] Chitra: So, the, to your question, e- earlier question about, um, uh, is corruption an issue at all? Of course it is. And it is for us to go on, uh, repeating that it is an issue. Otherwise, why are we being journalists? You know, why are ... If we are saying journalism is a public good or, you know, it's something for the public, it's for the public, by the public, then it an- it's our, it's our responsibility to, to constantly share what we think is [00:16:00] bad.[00:16:00] Chitra: And bad exists, uh, uh, Abhinandan. Bad ... Good and[00:16:08] Chitra: bad are important. We can't say «... » That's not where we should be. [00:16:11] Abhinandan: But if you were to look at it from ... So let me just break this down into three aspects of this. One is the professional conduct, which I completely agree with. Journalists do what journalists do. Outcome is not in our hands. «... » et cetera. So[00:16:28] Abhinandan: you do your story, what impact [00:16:30] it has is beyond your control. [00:16:32] Chitra: Yeah. [00:16:34] Abhinandan: However, we are humans. Management, but so are journalists. So, but ... And motivation is hugely influenced by the impact you have. If you continue to expose corruption- Mm ... and it doesn't lead to anything- Mm ... does it lead to journalist fatigue? «... » So Manisha, and I'd just like to tell everybody what Mr.[00:16:59] Abhinandan: Vadra [00:17:00] was accused of. [00:17:00] Clip: Yeah. [00:17:02] Abhinandan: Buying land, land use changing, it going through the roof, and that was the whole Vadra, you know, controversy which Mr. Modi rode, which became such a huge issue. ANI would stuff their fa- mic. Now ANI is missing in action It's the same thing. Land bought, land use changed, prices go through the roof, and it has been happening forever.[00:17:27] Abhinandan: The insider trading in India, it's not [00:17:30] even acknowledged as a thing, and it's no different in America right now. The brazen nature of corruption and access, uh, profiting in the president's office and in his ecosystem is so transparent, but no impact. So Manisha, as a journalist, while, you know, completely agree with Chitra that what impact it has is not up to us, but does it impact the motivation of journalists if they see that we keep doing stories but doesn't lead to anything?[00:18:00] [00:18:00] Abhinandan: Isn't it only human to get fatigued out? [00:18:02] manisha: No, absolutely. I think it has a huge impact. In fact, one of my close friends working in a newspaper mentioned this exact same thing about two months ago, where she said that basically a lot of... there's a lot of fatigue among us because earlier when we would do a story on an expose, we would know...[00:18:18] manisha: So newspapers have, like Indian Express' for this Mohan Yadav story, the circulation would be people like us. Right. Important people. That's it. It doesn't really reach the whole country. Yeah. What typically the expectation would be [00:18:30] that a story like this would get picked up by news channels, like the Robert Vadra land deals were broken by Economic Times, but it was picked up by everyone.[00:18:37] manisha: I mean, Arnab at that time I remember had done like back to back shows. Everyone, Congress had to come and explain. [00:18:43] Clip: Hmm. [00:18:44] manisha: Uh, they had to sen- they were confused whether we should send spokespersons from the party or not. He's family, he's not of the party. So when, what would happen is that newspapers would break stories.[00:18:53] manisha: Even 2G, for example, was pioneer, uh, Gopi, right? Mm. He was the first person to kind of break. [00:18:58] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. [00:18:59] manisha: The [00:19:00] newspaper would break stories, TV would pick it up and amplify it and make it very relevant for the rest of the country. [00:19:06] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:19:06] manisha: And, you know, you would keep something like a Mohan Yadav would have happened, uh, 12 years ago or if it would happen to a Congress today, you'd keep flashing his face on TV, and that sends a signal to the public that something wrong has happened.[00:19:18] manisha: Now, with that amplification layer gone, a lot of the stories come make a splash in our ecosystem, but they die. And I think that does... it is disappointing for journalists because ultimately journalists do measure their [00:19:30] worth with impact, and impact is change in governance and policy. [00:19:33] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:19:33] manisha: I did a story- Not the government fell, but there were, there was accountability.[00:19:38] Abhinandan: Sure. [00:19:38] manisha: Someone gave a resignation. An inquiry began. [00:19:42] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:19:43] manisha: Now, when you take all of that, you disinve- you disincentivize journalists from digging. [00:19:48] Abhinandan: And also editors are wary. They say, "Mat karo yaar." Yeah. "Do safe stuff." [00:19:52] manisha: So I think it absolutely impacts people, and in the Mohan Yadav case, for example, like you said, it is exactly the Robert Vadra, but how [00:20:00] we've s- we know Robert Vadra land deal.[00:20:02] manisha: Everyone knows at the back of their head that- Hmm ... something had happened. How many people today would know that Mohan Yadav- And the [00:20:07] Abhinandan: BJP is actually defending it rather than- And [00:20:08] manisha: BJP is brazenly defending it ... and [00:20:10] Abhinandan: normally they keep quiet. [00:20:11] manisha: Yeah. When [00:20:12] Abhinandan: something like this happens, they just, you know, brazen it out through silence.[00:20:14] Abhinandan: Because they know- Now they're brazening it out with defense, and of course we'll get to the Ayodhya temple, uh, later. Basant will be joining us, telling us what's happening there. But before I get to Shardul, um Uh, you know, you have interacted with journalists from various [00:20:30] generations, uh, Chitra. Uh, you know, the, your own, uh, team, you co-founded News Minute.[00:20:36] Abhinandan: Do you see a fatigue with journalists feeling that ""Yar, faeda kya hai?"" Or do you think it, it is realistic to expect their motivations to not dwindle? [00:20:49] Chitra: See, uh, yes, uh, there is that ... fatigue is there. Fatigue set in even for me. [00:20:55] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:20:55] Chitra: You know, I was tired because I was not seeing any reaction. Hmm. But at some [00:21:00] point you have to pick up your, pick up your, you know, pen and pencil and say, "No, let's go at it."[00:21:05] Chitra: And then there'll always be, um, like a, a new something will come your way, you know? And I have seen that. Hmm. Uh, you know, uh, if, if, if you're ambitious enough about the story and you're constantly making phone calls and constantly following up and it, it's tiresome. Hmm. You know, good investigative journalist is tiring.[00:21:26] Chitra: Hmm. It's not, you know, it's not flashes and it's not... I [00:21:30] mean, my work was very tiring. I'm not going to say that it wasn't, because that would be a lie. And it's not romantic or anything like that. A lot of our work, and you know this, is it can sound gisa pita, but it's not gisa pita. I mean, you actually, you know that you have to go here because something big has happened.[00:21:47] Chitra: Mm-hmm. So, uh, you know, you have to be able to factor in all these, all these things. And I mean, I also had a child in between, so- Mm-hmm ... you know, priorities will shift and all that. But what makes a good [00:22:00] journalist, um, is I think that, I mean, I think I told Manisha that the journalist has to be a good person.[00:22:06] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:22:06] Chitra: You know, you basically have to be a good person who believes that something is going to ... That you've got something big and you have to keep at it. [00:22:13] Abhinandan: I think- [00:22:14] Chitra: Otherwise why even be in the profession? [00:22:16] Abhinandan: It's like, I think it's so tricky being optimistic where you're only uncovering bad news. I think that- [00:22:21] Chitra: Yeah[00:22:21] Abhinandan: contradiction in journalism, journalism or having faith in news product is because you believe you can change things for the better. [00:22:29] Clip: Yeah. [00:22:29] Abhinandan: [00:22:30] Yet, your most of your information consumption is things that are horrible, that are dark. In 1996, the Charkhi Dadri mid-air collision happened. I remember, um, I was, uh, sitting, I was I think about 21 or yeah, 20, 21, uh, in news track, and this information came that two thing have crashed and, you know, two aircrafts collided midair and they crashed in Charkhi Dadri, and the debris and bodies are strewn over- Yeah[00:22:58] Abhinandan: 10, 15, 20 [00:23:00] kilometers, and our teams went. And I remember, I think Ranjan was his name, he was this, uh, short gentleman. I think he was the one who died with, uh, Scindia or one of them with the helicopter crash. [00:23:13] Shardool : Mm-hmm. [00:23:13] Abhinandan: When he came back from the shoot, he was crying. [00:23:15] Chitra: Hmm. [00:23:16] Abhinandan: Uh, because he says, "I saw villagers and people there-" Taking body parts, to removing rings.[00:23:24] Shardool : Yes. Yeah. [00:23:25] Abhinandan: I mean, you know, we say we are lovely people. Fucking we are animals, yeah. [00:23:30] And he was crying, and I remember, and I was a kid, yeah. I was just watching all these senior journalists. I was like, yeah, yeah, "... " And another one was saying, ".... " Then few months later there was a fire and said, "Death is double or just single?[00:23:45] Abhinandan: Single, okay. .... " You know, you get desensitized also, yet you see the most horrible things, yet you have to be optimistic. I think it's emotionally very draining. But [00:23:53] Chitra: Shardul, [00:23:55] Abhinandan: what is- [00:23:56] Chitra: But can I? Can I? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, go ahead please. I was just ... Sorry, um, if I'm interrupting. But I mean, and then you have to ... I mean, like, [00:24:00] where I live in Geneva, okay, this be the[00:24:02] Chitra: I mean, I suppose I have some kind of, uh, some kind of a, a, a perspective where, you know, now I watch these, uh, uh, this, uh, more, more than a million people in Albania, you know- Mm ... they're calling for the government to change because, um, they, they have, uh, they ha- the, the government has given their land to Mr.[00:24:22] Chitra: Trump's son-in-law to build a- Mm ... uh, uh, you know, some kind of real estate. Mm. So I think there's a global push against corruption. [00:24:30] And, uh, also what you read and where you place yourself, I mean, India is a major power. And, you know, with increasing visibility comes increasing responsibility. So if we start reading something else, and I think there are journalists now around the world who, who are not going to take, who are not going to take any nonsense.[00:24:49] Chitra: And that is the hope for me. I mean, I, you know, I'm giving myself hope not just for my country- ... but placing my country in an international situation- Mm ... and taking hope from all of [00:25:00] that. [00:25:00] Abhinandan: Shardul, what do you explain the lack of accountability, the brazen nature? I personally believe that no matter how, you know, low the ratings of media, et cetera, is- It is the first domino to- [00:25:14] Chitra: Hmm[00:25:15] Abhinandan: effect change. Of course. To say that, "Look, this shit we're not gonna take." And because that first domino, no matter how small, is not reacting, it doesn't lead to anything. [00:25:25] manisha: And Mohan Yadav was completely blacked out. No one reported it. Only Rajdeep did. [00:25:29] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:25:29] Shardool : [00:25:30] So what Manisha said, that earlier it used to happen too, but news used to travel.[00:25:34] Shardool : Hmm. Like people like us who were living in small towns and were completely removed from this sort of information system- [00:25:40] Basant : Hmm ... [00:25:40] Shardool : used to get it from readily available sources like, like for example, like Dainik [00:25:45] Clip: Jagran. [00:25:45] Shardool : Hmm. [00:25:45] Basant : Right? Hmm. [00:25:46] Shardool : It's everywhere. [00:25:47] Basant : Hmm. [00:25:48] Shardool : But it's not happening now because ... So I wanted to ask you, do you want me to comment on corruption or journalistic one, but I'm speaking on journalistic one right now.[00:25:56] Shardool : Hmm. Because the, the [00:26:00] incentives for even disseminating right information which may get, may or may not get you eyeballs- Hmm ... has gone. Their incentive, we talk about it in different contexts so many times that- [00:26:11] Basant : Hmm ... [00:26:11] Shardool : incentives for media to do honest reportage has been done away with. Exactly, yeah. That's one side.[00:26:15] Shardool : It has been systematically done away with. Hmm. Sometimes people[00:26:22] Shardool : say, "This is abject reality in front of us. Manisha said, and I remember watching on TV as [00:26:30] an, uh, you know, audience- [00:26:31] Basant : Hmm ... [00:26:31] Shardool : Arnab and so many people picked Vadra was an issue, and like if [00:26:36] manisha: that- I mean, Vadra was only known for the land deals. [00:26:37] Shardool : Yeah, yeah. [00:26:38] manisha: That's what I remember, like. [00:26:39] Shardool : And these people are defending[00:26:42] Shardool : Well, I wanna say it in Hindi because it's so funny. Sure.[00:26:51] Shardool : Hmm. Because this corruption started much earlier. The New- Indian Express newspaper report says, and I quote- Hmm ... "The chairperson of [00:27:00] Ujjain Development Authority, he was Mohan Yadav- Hmm ... from 2004 to 2010, head of MP Tourism Development Corporation during from 2011 to '13, and MLA from Ujjain South since 2013."[00:27:23] Shardool : Why do you need 108 plots if you are a public servant?[00:27:30] [00:27:30] Shardool : Maybe a crude thing to say, but anyway. Hmm. So this is clear, and conflict of interest, all of us I think have spoken about so many times on this panel. Hmm. Hmm. But the media angle is this, that they ha- they have no incentive, and they fear the repercussions because this government is vindictive.[00:27:51] Shardool : Hmm. Yeah, always. Which, which is all they have. [00:27:53] Abhinandan: Right. [00:27:54] Shardool : On corruption, I do have a- the point of view, but maybe later. Go [00:27:58] Abhinandan: ahead. [00:27:58] Shardool : So incidentally, we were [00:28:00] talking about this last week Look, to snatch away and to be able to snatch away assets or commodity or anything is a very human thing, evolutionarily. Mm. Jo pehle shikar leta hai, you know, anybody who snatch their hunt, his children would be fed in that cave.[00:28:20] Basant : Mm. [00:28:20] Shardool : He would get the mates. [00:28:21] Basant : Mm. [00:28:22] Shardool : Our public, and I know this from personal experience of living in very less means and then [00:28:30] more so. [00:28:30] Basant : Mm, [00:28:30] Shardool : mm. But the insistence of choosing the lesser evil- [00:28:34] Basant : Mm ... [00:28:35] Shardool : to, "Abhi kya hi ho jayega?" That attitude is prevalent in our society because people hold no stake in it. Yeh sarkar ka park hai, this is government's road, this is government's bus stop, this is government's railway station.[00:28:46] Shardool : It's not ours. [00:28:47] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:28:48] Shardool : Because Indians sort of contrast have a reputation for maintaining very clean homes. [00:28:53] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:28:54] Shardool : But garbage outside- Sure ... not caring. [00:28:55] Abhinandan: Yeah. [00:28:56] Shardool : And the reason is our policies also have not [00:29:00] made people stakeholder. And election issue, I'm not sure, but I do think because everybody's corrupt, people don't have any option to choose from.[00:29:08] Abhinandan: Well, I, a- again, that is, you know, history does not quite match up to that because the whole Jan Lokpal movement Many people say that Modi got such a huge majority. I mean, I disagree that UPA fell because of Jan Lokpal movement. I think it would be a bit of a stretch to think they'd get a third term. Uh, I know [00:29:30] for a fact that they didn't even expect a second term.[00:29:32] Abhinandan: I know personally two cabinet ministers had already packed up their stuff when the, before the results were coming out to move to their other- Hmm ... luxury, luxurious Delhi homes, and then UPA 2 they won. Uh, you know, when the UPA came back at the 2009. So I think it would be overly optimistic to think that they would get a third term.[00:29:50] Abhinandan: But e- corruption was a huge issue. I remember I was part of that movement. You just had to... I remember cops were scared. They had to take this [00:30:00] thing, our PAN guy here- [00:30:01] Shardool : Yeah ... [00:30:02] Abhinandan: I remember said that, "Dude, they have stopped taking hafta from us." That was the impact it had. It was an issue. It was an issue because people thought there could be something.[00:30:11] manisha: Yeah. [00:30:12] Abhinandan: I think what this government has successfully done is killed all hope. Yeah, yeah. Boss Taken away [00:30:17] manisha: that ... This is the best you get. [00:30:20] Abhinandan: You make all the noise, that cop will still bash you up if we have our hand on his head. Yeah, [00:30:25] Shardool : yeah. [00:30:25] Abhinandan: And if you do the worst thing, you'll be let loose or you'll be [00:30:30] let go because we've told the cop.[00:30:31] Abhinandan: So when people feel that there is no outcome, that positive outcome, so the cynicism that I think they have managed to kind of, uh, infect our citizenry with, through the media- Through the media ... is their biggest win. I think that is, uh, key. But Chitra, coming back to you, um, we'll leave you the last word on this.[00:30:55] Abhinandan: We have our next guest joining us in five minutes. W- what do you think as, [00:31:00] you know, corruption as an issue, what would it take for it to become an election issue? Because let's be clear, it is not an election issue right now. [00:31:07] Clip: Yeah. [00:31:07] Abhinandan: And this is across political parties People don't give a shit about corruption anymore.[00:31:13] Abhinandan: While, you know, politicians are to blame, why do you think the public doesn't care anymore? I, I think- Like, look at, look, sorry, look at America also. Trump's approval ratings are at an all-time low, but his nominees still get picked in the primaries. Mm-hmm. If you wanna win a Republican primary, you have [00:31:30] to have Trump's endorsement.[00:31:31] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. And there is evidence of his crypto scam, there is evidence of the stupid gold coin that he's released, uh, you know, his, uh, children getting prime deals. [00:31:41] Shardool : Mm-hmm. W- [00:31:41] Abhinandan: w- what would it take for people to care? [00:31:44] Chitra: See, I think that, uh, you know, corruption is a human problem, okay? [00:31:48] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:31:48] Chitra: Yeah. You can look around the world and, um, uh, sort of...[00:31:52] Chitra: But I, but I think that, uh, we have to look at, I mean, different levels, no? Politicians, what about the bureaucrats? I [00:32:00] mean, they are the ones who enable it, right? Mm. So we have to make sure who are the enab- I think the enablers of bureau... Of corruption in India are the bureaucrats. And I think somewhere that layer should be attacked, and I really mean this, attacked in the sense of they are the ones who, who sit and pass files and figure out...[00:32:18] Chitra: You know, and I said this to me, a bureaucrat told me, and I can perhaps even name him now. Mm. Mr. Mukerja told me that within one, one day of a politician taking over, you can tell if [00:32:30] he's corrupt or not. And I'm sure now that one day has become one hour. But I think we have to look at the bureaucracy. This is, you know, we go on saying, uh, politicians, politicians, but I would say let us look at the bureaucrats who are enabling this.[00:32:45] Chitra: They are, you know, if we go after them systematically, and by that, I mean we, we, the, in the media- Mm ... then I think we'll get somewhere. [00:32:55] Abhinandan: Right. Well, thank you so much, Yoorun Gus Chitra Appreciate [00:33:00] your time and your inputs. Before we say goodbye, can you please give a recommendation that could enrich the lives of our listeners?[00:33:05] Abhinandan: It could be a book, an article- Yeah ... a film, a series, an experience, anything. [00:33:10] Chitra: Thank you. I have a book that I want to share. Mm. It's a book which says After Nations- [00:33:16] Abhinandan: Hmm ... [00:33:17] Chitra: uh, Making and Unmaking of a World Order by Rana [00:33:21] Abhinandan: Dasgupta. [00:33:21] Chitra: Okay. I don't know if you've read this. It's a fa- fascinating book, and, you know, he- it's a suite from a very non-pretentious writer.[00:33:28] Chitra: Hmm. And [00:33:30] between an, an author and a, and historian, and it speaks about civilizations, the tyranny of nations, and how, you know, he, he-- and he basically believes in the human factor, and says that I'd like to conclude where he says that, you know, it is important, above all, it- the book is a call to rediscover our species, you know, the human species.[00:33:52] Chitra: Uh, uh, species, the most basic and important form of freedom to create new social worlds [00:34:00] and alternative physical real- political realities. And I think an alternative political reality is being created. There's a new world order that's being created. So, in that, in that, I would like to recommend this book.[00:34:14] Chitra: Another, we were also asked to recommend a TV, TV show. [00:34:18] manisha: Mm. [00:34:18] Chitra: I would like to recommend, uh, uh, Going Underground by Afshin Rattansi. Okay. He, uh, broadcasts from the, uh, UAE. Mm. And it's top-class journalism, absolutely [00:34:30] top-class journalism. I mean, for example, he calls the G7 the Genocide 7, you know. I mean, we ask- Wow, okay.[00:34:37] Chitra: Yeah. I mean- Yeah ... we are seeing more and more like this, or, you know, he calls out Kaja Kallas the, you know, the geopolitical fool of the European Union. Mm. So I, I would recommend that people also watch this, uh, Going Underground by Afshin Rattansi. RT, it's an RT program. RT, uh- [00:34:54] Abhinandan: Okay, thanks, Chitra. Have a great weekend and a great day.[00:34:58] Abhinandan: Thank you for joining us. Goodbye. Thank [00:34:59] Chitra: you. Wish you [00:35:00] all the same. [00:35:00] Abhinandan: All right. [00:35:01] Chitra: Bye. [00:35:01] Abhinandan: And, uh, while Vasanth joins us- ... I have a couple of other announcements to make. One is no FIR culprits will escape Ayodhya fumes over Ram Mandir scam. This is the story that has been done by our very own journalist, young Vasanth here, uh, who will be joining us and telling us what he found there.[00:35:24] Abhinandan: And South Central, the weekly podcast that our partner organization, The News Minute does, will be [00:35:30] discussing this week Supreme Court hearing on the Ram Mandir controversy and the growing trend of political defections. You can tune in to the South Central to hear their team discuss this with their guests.[00:35:44] Abhinandan: And of course, I want to remind you again, we will be discussing A Suitable Boy at the News Laundry News Minute Book Club. So join us then in the show notes there the links. तो बसंत पहले बताइए आप कि आप अभी अयोध्या कितने दिनों के लिए गए? [00:35:59] Basant : लगभग [00:36:00] पाँच दिन था अयोध्या में। [00:36:01] Abhinandan: आप पाँच दिन अयोध्या में थे और पहले भी गए थे जब पहली वाली story हुई थी। [00:36:04] Basant : हाँ, 2021 में भी गए, उसके बाद 2024 में भी गए। [00:36:08] Abhinandan: तो 21 में जो story हुई थी वो जो Mayor के बेटे ने land खरीदी थी और फिर- [00:36:12] Basant : बेच दिया था trust को। [00:36:13] Abhinandan: Trust को बेचा था। [00:36:14] Basant : हमम। [00:36:15] manisha: 20 लाख में खरीदी और 2.5 करोड़ में बेच दी। [00:36:18] Abhinandan: Mayor [00:36:18] Basant : के भांजे [00:36:19] manisha: ने। [00:36:20] Abhinandan: Mayor के भांजे ने same day.[00:36:21] Basant : नहीं, नहीं वो- Three months. [00:36:23] Abhinandan: तीन महीने का अंतर। तीन महीने का अंतर था। तो this was a story that was broken by us. तो अभी बताइए एक तो [00:36:30] संक्षिप्त में मुद्दा क्या है? भाई क्या-क्या चोरी हुआ है? कहीं मैं पढ़ रहा हूँ कि खड़ाऊँ चोरी हो गए रामलल्ला के, उनके जो सर पर वो था चांदी का वो भी चोरी हो गया। मतलब क्या-क्या चोरी हुआ है?[00:36:41] Abhinandan: funds चोरी हुए हैं। चंपत राय कौन है? उन पर कौन निशाना साध रहा है? तो गड़िया क्या मांग रहा है? [00:36:47] Basant : जी। [00:36:48] Abhinandan: landscape क्या है? [00:36:49] Basant : जी, जब ये चंदा जो लोग चढ़ावा चढ़ाते हैं, उसमें चोरी का मामला आया। उसके बाद से अलग-अलग लोगों ने कोई सिंधी [00:37:00] समाज से है, कोई दूसरे समाज से, कोई कहीं से ये आरोप लगा रहा है कि उन्होंने दान किया था, उनको रसीद नहीं मिला, उनके सामान गायब हो गए हैं। तो ये जो उसके बाद जो आरोप लग रहे हैं, इस पर अभी कोई जांच भी नहीं हुई है। SIT ने भी इस पर कुछ वैसा action नहीं लिया है। SIT अभी main focus कर रही है। [00:37:17] Abhinandan: SIT अभी बनी [00:37:18] Basant : है। हाँ, जब ये मामला सामने आया और अखिलेश यादव ने जब ये मसले को उठाया कि जो लोग श्रद्धालु पैसे चढ़ाते थे, उसमें चोरी हुई है। उसके बाद trust के ही कहने पर एक [00:37:30] SIT बनी और SIT ने अपनी report UP Government को दे दी है। लेकिन SIT mainly उनका focus है जो चंदा आता था, जो चढ़ावा लोग आते थे और जब राम मंदिर के अंदर जाएंगे तो अलग-अलग जगहों पर एक बड़ा सा वो रखा हुआ है दानपात्र, उसमें श्रद्धालु पैसे डालते हैं और उसकी counting होती थी दो shift में। लगभग 30 से 35 पूरा line में है वो। जब आप थोड़ा अंदर चले जाते हैं तो उसमें जो भी अंदर जाएगा ₹10, ₹50 अपनी इच्छा अनुसार डालेगा। उसकी counting होती थी। उसमें [00:38:00] चोरी का primary आरोप अभी लगा है। [00:38:02] Abhinandan: पर अभी process क्या था?[00:38:04] Abhinandan: क्या रोज audit होता था कि भाई ये खुलेगा? Note होगा कितना निकला वहां से। [00:38:09] Basant : दो shift में उन पैसों की counting होती थी, अ, और उसमें अलग अलग कर्मचारी नियुक्त हुए थे। कुछ State Bank of India के भी थे और कुछ trust के भी। लेकिन दिलचस्प यह है कि SBI और trust के बीच एक MoU हुआ था कि आपके employee भी रहेंगे शामिल उसमें जब पैसे की counting होगी। [00:38:29] Abhinandan: आपके [00:38:30] employee मतलब [00:38:30] Basant : SBI के [00:38:31] Abhinandan: employee। [00:38:31] Basant : लेकिन वो employee तो SBI के होते थे, payment SBI करता था पर वो लोग होते थे trust के लोगों के ही। मतलब नियुक्ति trust करता था, payment SBI करता था। यानी SBI के अपने लोग नहीं थे वो। वो trust के अनिल मिश्रा या दूसरे लोगों के recommendation पर। [00:38:47] Abhinandan: Understood.[00:38:48] Basant : उनको रखा जाता था। इसलिए bank से bank के कर्मियों से भी पूछताछ हुई है। SIT ने उनसे भी पूछताछ की है। दो shift में होता था और हर रोज पैसा चला जाता था bank। जो branch है SBI का जहाँ [00:39:00] trust का खाता है वो मंदिर से लगभग आधे किलोमीटर दूर भी नहीं है। तो रोज शाम को पूरी counting वౌंटिंग के बाद जितना पैसा है वो कागज पर mention होता था और वो चला जाता था trust के पास, अ, bank में जमा हो जाता था [00:39:13] Abhinandan: रोज। [00:39:14] Basant : तो ये अभी तक प्रक्रिया है। [00:39:17] Abhinandan: I see और अभी तक कोई ऐसा अच्छा चंपत राय कौन है और इन पर क्यों मांग हो रही है?[00:39:23] Abhinandan: इन पर करो आप। [00:39:24] manisha: चंपत and Tinnu। [00:39:26] Basant : चंपत अ-अ VHP के बहुत बड़े leader रहे [00:39:30] हैं। [00:39:30] Abhinandan: अच्छा। [00:39:30] Basant : अभी विश्व हिंदू परिषद के उपाध्यक्ष भी हैं। [00:39:33] Abhinandan: हम्म। [00:39:33] Basant : और जब 2000 जब राम मंदिर का Supreme Court का फैसला आया और Supreme Court ने बोला एक trust का निर्माण करें जो उसकी देखरेख करेंगे। [00:39:41] Abhinandan: हम्म। [00:39:41] Basant : तो उसके वो महासचिव हैं। [00:39:43] Abhinandan: Okay. [00:39:44] Basant : और एक तरीके से वो one man army हैं। उनके दो तीन लोग हैं। उनको कहा जाता है one man army। वो सब वहीं देखते हैं। अ-अनिल मिश्रा ये भी RSS के हैं। [00:39:54] Abhinandan: हम्म। [00:39:55] Basant : और अनिल मिश्रा आयुर्वेदिक doctor हुआ का homeopathic doctor हुआ करते [00:40:00] थे। [00:40:00] Abhinandan: यह बात मुझे हजम नहीं हुई। Homeopathic है या doctor है फैसला कर लो। Homeopathic doctor तो कुछ होता नहीं है। खैर। हाँ। [00:40:07] Basant : तो वो अ उनका घर वहीं है अमानीगंज में और homeo doctor हुआ करते थे और उनकी family तो Congress की family है लेकिन वो एक RSS maker और अवध प्रांत के वो प्रमुख भी रहे हैं और वो trustee हैं और इनका भी नाम अनिल मिश्रा का नाम उस समय भी आया था जब जमीन की खरीद बिक्री हुई थी Mayor के भांजे वाला और वो खरीदवाने में भी गंवाते हैं और बेचने में भी गंवाते हैं और [00:40:30] वो trustee भी हैं। तो तब भी इन पर सवाल उठे थे। लेकिन वो [00:40:33] Abhinandan: फिर भी trust पे रहे। [00:40:34] Basant : हाँ। उनको [00:40:34] Abhinandan: हटाया नहीं गया। [00:40:35] Basant : नहीं। [00:40:36] Abhinandan: कोई impact नहीं है उस story [00:40:37] Basant : का। कुछ नहीं, कुछ नहीं। उस वक्त भी committee बनी थी अ-राधे श्याम मिश्रा Committee जमीन की खरीद बिक्री की जांच के लिए। आज तक उसकी report नहीं आई है। [00:40:46] Abhinandan: I see.[00:40:46] Basant : जी। [00:40:47] Abhinandan: और तोगड़िया जी किसका, किसकी मुंडी चाहते हैं कि किसकी मुंडी जरा sacrifice हो इस मामले में? [00:40:55] Basant : देखिए sir, तोगड़िया को जो VHP से बाहर किया गया। [00:40:58] Abhinandan: हम्म। [00:40:58] Basant : 2018 में [00:41:00] पहली बार विश्व हिंदू परिषद के history में अध्यक्ष पद का चुनाव हुआ था। [00:41:04] Abhinandan: हम्म। [00:41:04] Basant : और उस वक्त तोगड़िया group को बाहर कर दिया गया। और चंपत राय दूसरे पक्ष में थे और तुगड़िया की जो राजनीतिक जो द्वेष है, जो उनकी है वो किससे सबको पता है। गुजरात में वो park में मिले थे। खुले रूप से आलोचना करते हैं प्रधानमंत्री का। तो प्रवीण तोगड़िया ने मांग की है कि अ-जांच हो और तमाम [00:41:30] साधु संत सिर्फ प्रवीण तोगड़िया ही नहीं तमाम साधु संत यही कह रहे हैं चंपत राय के बारे में कि वो बहुत भले व्यक्ति नहीं है। उनको क्यों दिया गया यह इतना बड़ा पद और उसका आप देखिए जब से वो trust के head बने तब से कुछ कुछ गड़बड़ियां हो ही रही हैं और उनको कभी-कभी इस बार भी FIR हो गया। कल trust ने ही एक FIR करवाई है और उसमें जिन लोगों को नामजद किया गया चंपत राय के driver है। टुन्नू यादव जो बहुत चर्चा में रहे। उसके अलावा बाकी जो पैसे गिनती करने वाले लोग थे अविनाश शुक्ला, [00:42:00] लौकुश मिश्रा, रामा शंकर मिश्रा ये लोग शामिल आठ लोग हैं। [00:42:04] Clip: तो editor- [00:42:05] manisha: तो मैं जानना चाह रही थी कि तुम लोगों से मिले। वहां काफी लोगों से बात की तो ground पर mood क्या है?[00:42:11] manisha: लोग मतलब यह issue है लोगों के लिए। इससे कुछ impact होगा because हमें election भी अब छह महीने में आने वाला है। [00:42:18] Basant : लोग मतलब कहते हैं ना दुखी हैं अयोध्या वाले। वो [00:42:22] manisha: तो बहुत time से दुखी हैं बेचारे। 2021 से उनका कुछ भला नहीं हुआ। [00:42:26] Basant : और result में भी वो दिखा। वहां पे 24 में भारतीय जनता पार्टी हार [00:42:30] गई। लोकसभा चुनाव। विधानसभा भी major सीटें हारी हैं तो लोगों में नाराजगी है। लोग इसको बड़े उत्साह से देख रहे हैं कि हमारे जिस चीज के लिए अयोध्या इतना नाम है, अयोध्या के इतने सम्मान हैं लेकिन ये चंदा चोरी कर रहे हैं। एक महंत धर्मदास हैं जो हनुमानगढ़ी के महंत हैं। उन्होंने मुझे बोला कि चोर भी जो पैसा चुराता है वो भी लाता है। यहां चढ़ावा चढ़ाता है कि उसको पुण्य मिलेगा और इन लोगों ने उस पैसे को भी चुरा [00:42:56] Shardool : लिया [00:42:57] Basant : तो। और एक बुजुर्ग मिले [00:43:00] अ-उनका कुछ मिश्रा नाम है तो वो ऐसे आ रहे थे। मैं उनसे खड़ा होकर बात करने लगा तो कह रहे हैं कि बड़ा सनातन का इन्होंने बहुत नुकसान कर दिया तो वो लोगों में गुस्सा है। एक लड़का कह रहा है कि इनका कुछ भी नहीं होगा और FIR जिस तरीके से हुआ है तो कुछ नहीं होगा। यह तो दिख रहा है। लोगों में [00:43:17] manisha: नाराजगी है। खुल के श-बोल रहे हैं इसके बारे में। उन्होंने आपको interview में भी बोला कि high profile चोर हैं और ऊपर से दबाव है। but लोग योगी को मजबूर भी देख रहे हैं कि योगी बेचारे [00:43:30] मजबूर हैं, उनका कुछ गलती नहीं है। [00:43:32] Basant : ऐसा [00:43:33] manisha: है। [00:43:34] Basant : हां, इसमें मैं एक उदाहरण देता हूं कि घर में तीन भाई हैं। दो भाई एक तरफ है, एक भाई एक तरफ है। जो अकेले बहुत मजबूत है वो दो लोगों को set करना चाहता है। तो यहां भी हो रहा है तीन लोग हैं Delhi में एक UP में एक और जगह पे और तीनों एक दूसरे के गरज पाले हुए हैं और एक मुद्दा मिल गया कि सब एक दूसरे को [00:43:56] manisha: set [00:43:57] Basant : कर रहे हैं और उसमें सब [00:44:00] पे दबाव है तो ये हो रहा है। [00:44:02] Abhinandan: So what are the stories that are going up what Basant has done from there just tell our audience what you know from the stories and what more are we planning to do on this series.[00:44:13] manisha: So we will have we had one story on basic cases that is already up और Ayodhya में लोग क्या सोच रहे हैं। एक Champa Rai का हम profile भी कर रहे हैं और अब जबकि chargesheet file हुआ है and FIR हुआ है तो we will see what we can do beyond what's coming [00:44:30] out in terms of the chargesheet. So Champa Rai's profile you can expect from us from this leg of trip and I think बहुत सी stories हैं वहां पे पर अभी जब ये गए तो लोग बात नहीं कर रहे हैं तो थोड़ा सा shutdown है। जैसे टीनू यादव से भी आपने बात करने की बहुत कोशिश करी लेकिन उन्होंने बात नहीं करी। अब उनका नाम FIR में आ गया तो शायद अब वो बात करेंगे। तो I think this deserves a little more because let's just remember that Ram temple when it was being made you know the संघ परिवार launched [00:45:00] the biggest ever massive public donation drive 3000 crore to 5000 crore were raised across the country and everyone listening to this podcast will know relatives even my mother also they came to the locality and asked 5000 to 3000 crore.[00:45:17] manisha: We know that the temple was 18,000 18 right तो उसके बाद क्या हुआ extra cash जो raise हुआ we don't know there is very little transparency and politically मतलब Basant तो serious अपना पूरा [00:45:30] ground पे report कर रहे हैं। But I am very interested in the gossip value of the story जो UP में बहुत बातें चल रही हैं। क्योंकि अगर आप trust देखें तो there is Champa Rai there is Nripendra Mishra who is directly PMO.[00:45:43] manisha: PMO guy right within the beginning says no nothing, nothing has happened. [00:45:47] Abhinandan: And he is still on the trust. [00:45:48] manisha: Yeah and nothing you know he is pretty much the head okay and he is directly a PMO appointee. [00:45:55] Abhinandan: His [00:45:56] manisha: first reaction to this is that this is nothing and that we [00:46:00] will figure out. But while he is saying all this Yogi in UP has constituted an SIT and said हम तो करेंगे investigation SIT का गठन होता है SIT says yes there is चोरी [00:46:12] Abhinandan: So there is a flexing- Yeah[00:46:14] Abhinandan: between PMO and CMO. [00:46:15] manisha: And, uh, then, uh, the FIRs are filed or whatever is filed. Uh, Yogi Ram temple, a story in the Express comes that the Ram Temple Trust says that, "Bhai, we had warned of this bad auditing a while ago, [00:46:30] and no one took our... We had a private firm auditing how donations were collected- [00:46:34] Clip: Hmm ... [00:46:34] manisha: and none of us, none of them took us seriously."[00:46:36] manisha: Now, this is the temple trust accused of theft. So they are saying that, "But we warned and nothing has happened." And if you look at TV media, which is very friendly to, you know, uh, the government here, they are all hammer and tongs. "Kisne kari chori? Kisne kari chori?" They've all ignored Mohini Yadav. But they are going at this Ram temple, you know, who has done it.[00:46:56] Clip: So I [00:46:57] Abhinandan: think- [00:46:57] manisha: Fascinating ... there is a lot of push and pull. [00:47:00] There is... And, uh, the rumor there, and this is purely rumor, that it is Tinnu Yadav who leaked the story to Samajwadi Party So why was this Tinu Yadav, who's now named in the FIR leaking stories? If this is true, this is a complete rumor. But I think there's a very interesting politics playing out which is beyond the temple trust.[00:47:20] manisha: Like he was saying, there's a mudda and all the factions are now trying to set each other right. The PMO today has said we will do our own inquiry. [00:47:28] Abhinandan: So clearly [00:47:30] knowing what we know about the broadcast media, unless there is some nudge from somewhere, they will not pick up a story like this. The fact that they're going hammer and tongs.[00:47:37] manisha: Especially Ram Temple. [00:47:39] Abhinandan: Someone who is in has power either in the center or in the state has nudged them towards that just unrelated fact. Most of these media houses have their headquarters in UP in [00:47:51] Shardool : Noida, [00:47:51] Abhinandan: so may be related, may not be related, but that's interesting. But I think the one question that also we can get agricultural, you know, experts to answer is [00:48:00] that what do you call a very religious potato, a shraddhalu?[00:48:04] Abhinandan: That is my, my, my, my contribution to this discussion. But rumor mongering very disgraceful. Don't don't learn from internal politics here. Do you think and you've interacted with a lot of reporters? Would a story like this be picked up by broadcast media the way it has been? If they suspected that there could be some [00:48:30] pushback?[00:48:30] Abhinandan: Or are they protected? [00:48:31] manisha: I just want to add one more, rumor gossip thing to this before. See, that's what [00:48:36] Abhinandan: our editors do. Basant [00:48:38] manisha: gives us a serious thing then. Jagran has been at the center of going against this Chanda chori Jagran we know has supported Ram Temple. When the Babri Masjid demolition happened, they were front and center batting for it and they are very much.[00:48:51] Basant : Jo ma'am ne kaha ki aap[00:49:00] [00:49:01] Basant : dekhiye jab ye sab ho raha tha society ka gathan ho gaya tha Yogi Adityanath pahunche Ayodhya aur unhone bhasan vasan diya Samajwadi Party ko wahi purana ki jinhonne kar sevakon pe goli chalayi wo hume gyan na de. Usi waqt unhone bola hai bahut aggressive hoke ki ulti seedhi bayaanbaazi na kare jo hamare is mamle ko prabhavit kare.[00:49:11] Basant : Same day jab wo Ayodhya mein the Nipendra Mishra ne kam[00:49:15] Basant : se kam paanch saat channel ke anchoron ko, reporteron ko bulaya aur interview diya aur usme bola ki chori nahi dakaity hui. निपेंद मिश्रा ने ABP News को और Republic भारत को interview दिया [00:49:30] और निपेंद मिश्रा उसी trust के member हैं और एक तरीके से head हैं। [00:49:33] Shardool : head हैं वो। [00:49:33] Basant : और IAS अधिकारी हैं। तमाम लोग तो चलिए वो सबसे ज्यादा पढ़े-लिखे IAS अधिकारी। उन्होंने बोला चोरी नहीं डकैती हुई है। तो यह बताता है कि कुछ तो है और जिस तरीके से media कर रहा है कि मैंने बोला ना कि तीन चार लोग हैं। अब आप एक चीज समझिए जितने लोग major इसमें आरोपी हैं, चाहे चंपत राय हों, चाहे अनिल मिश्रा हों, चाहे गोपाल राव हों या एक श्रीवास्तव हों। ये चारों लोग RSS से हैं और चारों लोग RSS द्वारा [00:50:00] RSS में अच्छी पकड़ रखने वाले लोग हैं। तो RSS के आरोपी हैं जो अभी तो आरोपी ही हैं। एक UP government है, एक central government है। हाँ। कि तीन लोग हैं। [00:50:09] Abhinandan: आठ लोगों पर है file हुई है ना?[00:50:11] Abhinandan: Eight. [00:50:11] Basant : तो ये जो आठ लोग हैं उसमें एक ही चंपत राय का driver है। बाकी लोग तो वो हैं जो पैसे की गिनती में शामिल थे और कहा जा रहा है कि पैसा चोरी करते हुए कैमरे में दिखे हैं। लेकिन जो आरोप जिन पर लग रहा है media अ, वो, वो लोग हैं जो RSS से हैं और चंपत राय ये निपेंद मिश्रा कह रहे हैं चोरी नहीं डकैती हुई [00:50:30] है। योगी जी कह रहे हैं CM योगी कह रहे हैं कि उल्टी-सीधी बयान ना करें। तो इससे तो पता चलता है कि कुछ तो जो दिख रहा है चोरी उसके अंदर भी चल रहा है। Politics अंदर हो रही है और वो मैंने बोला निपटाना चाहते हैं तो सब एक दूसरे पर अपना- [00:50:44] manisha: और trust का control भी क्योंकि अगर सारे आरोपी RSS वाले हैं तो मतलब signal ये भी कि आपसे नहीं हो रहा है ये। आप side हो तो। है ना?[00:50:52] Abhinandan: So fascinating. I mean, enough, you know, shows about Ghaziabad, Faridabad, Gurgaon, all these, you know, mafia, what is [00:51:00] happening, intrigue. Someone should make a show called Ayodhya. That is where the real intrigue is. What do you make of it since you are an RSS, uh, you know, uh- [00:51:08] Shardool : Like I was born into it. This is like saying- [00:51:10] Abhinandan: A point[00:51:10] Shardool : you are at fault of being a Punjabi. Uh, I was [00:51:13] Abhinandan: born into it I'm not saying it's a fault. There's no, there's no fault in it. I don't think there's a sin being in the Sangh. I s- I've told you, I have family in the Sangh who I've loved. But, uh, what is your view? It's not- That is it, is the loyalty to the Sangh enough to insulate you from the internal politicking of the BJP?[00:51:29] Abhinandan: 'Cause this is BJP [00:51:30] politicking. [00:51:30] Shardool : Yes, yes, of course. No, this is, this is- But it's [00:51:32] Abhinandan: not enough to insulate you ... [00:51:33] Shardool : there is a very good phrase.[00:51:39] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:51:40] Shardool : Yeah, ideology, this is not a fight of ideology or ethics. Mm. This is power. [00:51:45] Abhinandan: Okay. Who [00:51:45] manisha: controls. [00:51:46] Shardool : Uh, yes. Mm. And elections are coming up of a state which is a size of UK in area, but holds the population of Brazil. [00:51:54] Abhinandan: Yeah, but I, by the way, didn't see, uh, was there, was there any editorial on this issue? Uh, I, I [00:52:00] saw that there was an editorial on Mohan Yadav in the Express.[00:52:02] Abhinandan: No, I don't know No, no, Mo- on, on the, sorry, NEET exam, that it is a sign of corruption, you know, this... 'Cause I, I think our wonderful education minister gave a interview again blaming everybody- I don't know ... uh, thank, us, but, uh, so- [00:52:15] manisha: I haven't, no ... [00:52:15] Abhinandan: the, so- [00:52:16] manisha: But TV media [00:52:17] Abhinandan: has picked it up quite. Has picked it up, yeah.[00:52:19] manisha: So- Yes [00:52:19] Shardool : indeed. So it's a power play- Mm ... which is happening between UP government, the pow- power holders in UP- Mm ... and center, and the tussle between them. [00:52:30] But besides that, no, it, it doesn't insulate you, but it, it almost always comes down to your individual choice. [00:52:36] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:52:37] Shardool : Because people... Like if you make a choice to, to speak about it, you will face consequences.[00:52:44] Basant : Mm. [00:52:44] Shardool : Maybe not in everyday RSS work because you're just going to Shakha, but in VHP, yes, in Bajrang Dal, yes- Mm ... in BJP, yes. And if you are a public face, if, if you are a bit of senior, you will. But there is another factor to this, like, uh, this is related to, also related to discussion we were having, the [00:53:00] overall corruption thing.[00:53:00] Shardool : Like, look, we talked about elevel- evolution. Greed is one of the most primal drivers of human beings. [00:53:07] Basant : Mm. [00:53:07] Shardool : And ethics and sharing and empathy, these are learnt behaviors. [00:53:11] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:53:12] Shardool : People are not being taught, and they are not incentivized to act that way. In Ayodhya case- [00:53:18] Abhinandan: Interesting. Mm ... [00:53:19] Shardool : there is another, like I'll give you tidbits, lot b- b- published[00:53:23] Shardool : but I also looked into in media behavior. Jagran was the only newspaper, Ayodhya issue, which had actually [00:53:30] saw 7 June tweet of Akhilesh Yadav and did some reporting on it, their, their field reporter. There were many newspapers in Hindi belt which didn't Publish it in their other editions in Uttarakhand, which is like sort of a prime reader for this type of story, Ayodhya Machauri.[00:53:47] Clip: Hmm. [00:53:47] Shardool : But didn't print it in Uttarakhand editions. Didn't print in Bareilly, Pilibhit editions. Only Lucknow edition and Ayodhya editions have had it. There was another one, Hindustan, the Hindi one. [00:54:00] Varanasi edition of 8th June didn't mention this. But other editions did. So that is also going on. Hmm. But all of this is for power play-[00:54:09] Shardool : and image making. The other part is why a temple which has been built by Supreme Court's, uh, sort of decision- Order. Hmm ... like legal order. Hmm. You may agree with it or not is a different thing. [00:54:21] Abhinandan: That was a Supreme Court [00:54:22] Shardool : order. Right? [00:54:22] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:54:23] Shardool : It's a legal order, and government is part of it. Prime Minister is inaugurating it.[00:54:27] Shardool : Why is there no transparency in [00:54:30] it? [00:54:30] manisha: Yeah. [00:54:30] Shardool : Like, th- this is major money. [00:54:32] manisha: It's massive money. In- Largest fund drive we've seen in this country. No, [00:54:36] Shardool : forget the fund drive. The one you're getting now from pilgrims. [00:54:40] manisha: Huh. [00:54:40] Shardool : And the other attitude I'll show you, which sort of got buried because it's a minor thing. Hmm.[00:54:44] Shardool : Lucknow fire we mentioned, right? [00:54:46] manisha: Hmm. [00:54:47] Shardool : When Yogi visited the, that place, and there was a 14 or a 16-year-old girl who ha-- was one of the victims, family member of the victim. She was telling that the facilities are not there, and Yogi couldn't listen to her for three [00:55:00] minutes. [00:55:00] manisha: I wanna actually comment on this- [00:55:01] Shardool : Yeah[00:55:01] Shardool : finish it up. And he says, "ज्यादा भाषण मत दो" He says it on camera. She's complaining कि हमें दिक्कत है. This should tell you the attitude. [00:55:09] manisha: मैं ऐसी [00:55:10] Clip: क्या बोलूं, जिसकी कोई katanya नहीं है। कोई चेक्स नहीं [00:55:13] Abhinandan: है। सभी नियमों का पालन करना। [00:55:15] Clip: हम लोग वो BJP समर्थक हैं, मतदाता हैं। हम आपको जितना सपोर्ट कर रहे हैं- [00:55:20] Abhinandan: अशन, अशन करा दिए। [00:55:21] Clip: नहीं, नहीं, नहीं [00:55:22] Abhinandan: सम्मेलन कर [00:55:23] Shardool : को- That, that's why Yogi said in Ayodhya, कोई भी इमेज ना खराब करे, आप कुछ भी हो जाए। उसकी वजह क्या है?[00:55:28] Shardool : मैंने ये सारी बात इसलिए [00:55:30] बोली। When you sort of... Like, I'm very s- scared of people who are very sure of their goodness, their righteousness. [00:55:38] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:55:39] Shardool : Because they are the worst people in the world. '[00:55:41] Abhinandan: Cause they can justify anything. [00:55:42] Shardool : है ना? Because bad people wanna look around, भाई कुछ देख तो नहीं रहा यार, है ना? कुछ करने से पहले। People who act on ideology and abstract principles, for them especially, be it class, जो हमने footpath वाले में किया-[00:55:55] Shardool : or organizational workers of the lower rung. [00:55:58] Clip: Hmm. [00:55:58] Shardool : They are inconsequential. [00:56:00] They are, what's the word? Dispensable. [00:56:03] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:56:03] Shardool : Right? Their values, quote-unquote abstract values, which Yogi and Modi both are showing in different way. Nripendra Mishra used to be chief secretary of Atal Bihari Vajpayee. Let the guy retire, yaar.[00:56:15] Shardool : He's, he's the trustworthy guy, so he will drag on. That[00:56:24] Abhinandan: is clear. Yeah. And it's never been as clear as it is on money is power because [00:56:30] I leave it to you to guess why so many MLAs and MPs are suddenly switching sides. So whoever can afford to make them switch sides through their good deeds will get them. So clearly money is power. You want to come in on? [00:56:41] manisha: Yeah.[00:56:42] manisha: So this Lucknow incident, and it ties very well with your earlier conversation on why corruption doesn't matter. Hmm. So here's this lady, she's a lady, she's not a girl. She must be in her 20s. Uh, the fire... One of her relatives died in the fire. [00:56:54] Clip: Hmm. [00:56:54] manisha: She and, um, you know, her relative was seen with Yogi, where she's [00:57:00] telling Yogi, she starts off Hmm.[00:57:03] manisha: You know, she's establishing her credentials as I'm your team. [00:57:06] Clip: Hmm. [00:57:07] manisha: But these are the... And then Yogi just says and just gives her a, you know, cold shoulder and walks out, and PTI mutes the whole interaction. [00:57:16] Clip: ANI. [00:57:17] manisha: ANI also, PTI also, all agencies. So this interaction that happens, you can only hear and then it's all muted, whatever she's saying.[00:57:25] Clip: Hmm. [00:57:25] manisha: Now, our colleague Tasnim in Lucknow interviewed this lady on the night [00:57:30] when this tragedy had happened, and in that interview she very clearly... Again, it is very clear she comes from a position of supporting the party. [00:57:37] Clip: Hmm. [00:57:38] manisha: She says[00:57:44] manisha: the bureaucrats, you know, the... Hmm Which may be very well true, but also look at this as a culmination of what the media has told us for 12 years. The Prime Minister and the CM will inaugurate [00:57:55] Shardool : a metro [00:57:56] manisha: bridge. Hmm. They will inaugurate a hand pump. [00:57:57] Shardool : Bas adda. So all [00:57:58] manisha: that we are getting is thanks to [00:58:00] them. [00:58:00] Shardool : Hmm.[00:58:00] manisha: But if a fire happens And this is the messaging that has been driven into this country for the last 12 years. The smallest of a bench, a park, a bloody Vande Bharat is, no engineer is involved there. It is, yeah. It is the Prime Minister and it is UP CM Yogi giving you gift. And- Even your salt packets have the PM's face on it, which are, you know, given as, uh- And the irony of a man of Yogi's caliber- Hmm[00:58:12] manisha: saying who has the most ghatiya bhashans. Like, the guy has nothing of consequence to say. And to your own party supporter, yaar, if nothing else, I mean- Uh,[00:58:30] [00:58:35] Shardool : f-forget the supporter And- She lost someone in fi- fire [00:58:37] manisha: Yeah But I'm saying that even if you're that high on- Drunk on power ... yeah, but even that you're... But look at where we've come to as a country, where we have to thank the Prime Minister for spending our tax money on giving us some food. But anything that happens in the country is not.[00:58:53] manisha: Above it. [00:58:55] Shardool : It's just like a family. [00:58:57] Abhinandan: Hmm. Basant, last word to you. [00:59:00] What do you think- This would lead to are we going to be back that अभी तो report उन्होंने पहली वाली committee ने भी submit नहीं की। Once the internal politicking has been taken care of arrangements arrived at leverage has been utilized to get you the best deal.[00:59:18] Abhinandan: Are we back to square one or will this lead to anything significant you think? [00:59:23] Basant : नहीं, मुझे नहीं लगता कि जो लोग main हैं, जिन पर जो जिम्मेदार हैं, अपने देश की [00:59:30] सबसे बुरी ये कि जिम्मेदारी लेने वाला कोई नहीं। तो इस मामले में भी जो जिम्मेदार है, जो responsible है उनको मुझे लगता है या हमने पहले भी देखा है उनको कुछ नहीं होगा। क्योंकि अगर उनको कुछ होता है तो जिस संगठन से ताल्लुक रखते हैं उस पर असर आएगा और उस संगठन के बारे में कहा जाता है कि बहुत आदर्शवादी है। बहुत मतलब वो दुनियादारी से ज्यादा मतलब नहीं रखते। पैसे वैसे या corruption से उनका लेना-देना नहीं है। तो इसमें जो लोग शामिल हैं वो एक [01:00:00] संगठन से संघ से ताल्लुक रखते हैं। अगर उन पर कुछ होता है तो एक bad image बनेगी तो मुझे नहीं लगता कि उन पर कोई action होगा। [01:00:08] Abhinandan: I see and before you go any recommendation for our audience.[01:00:13] Basant : हाँ मतलब मैं तो बाहर था। मैं जाने से पहले एक film देखा था। मैं वापस आऊंगा। cinema hall में देखा था लंबे समय बाद। क्योंकि इम्तियाज अली की film है। बार-बार कहा जाता है कि बाद में Netflix पर आता है तो लोग कहते हैं कि masterpiece है। लेकिन मैं cinema hall में गया और बहुत [01:00:30] अच्छी film है। एक meaningful मतलब संवेदना के साथ बनाई गई film है तो जरूर देखें और नरसूलिन साहब की acting तो- [01:00:38] Abhinandan: कमाल की। So thank you बसंत have a great weekend and look forward to your reports and thank you make us proud award winning रामनाथ गोयनका award winning journalist.[01:00:48] manisha: Two time. [01:00:48] Shardool : Multiple. [01:00:49] Abhinandan: Multiple award winning journalist बसंत इम्तियाज तुम्हें क्या मिला बेटा? By the way इम्तियाज my team is trying to get an interview bro. Come on यार I mean you can speak with नविका you can't speak with [01:01:00] me. [01:01:00] Shardool : Come on [01:01:00] Abhinandan: bro. And then you guys whine about you know how media treats you anyway.[01:01:05] Abhinandan: But thank you so much बसंत have a great weekend. No don't work hard. I am the evil boss सोना नहीं, खाना नहीं, बस काम करना। ठीक है। One more announcement please subscribe. Here is a QR code pay to keep news free like we said that now the Supreme Court has said walking and what you call the footpath- On footpaths.[01:01:30] [01:01:30] Abhinandan: Is fundamental right. We had done a report on it and we had dedicated a lot of reporters and a lot of time they spent investigating footpath-footpaths around different cities. Here is a QR code. You can still top this up. These are important stories which we are trying to do and we need your help. Yeah before we move on to the emails one of the topics that I wanted to discuss is language What the fuck is repo- bloody wrong with our leaders- Jesus, he[01:02:00] [01:02:00] Abhinandan: that they use this kind of language? [01:02:03] Clip insert: Nobody mentions that. 1.7 billion and hundreds of millions of dollars, they tried to bribe their way out of it. And you know what the Iranians did? They laughed at Obama and they said he's a stupid son of a bitch. [01:02:17] Clip: The bhosdi che loko kon jata hai he? Nahi, don't cut. Yeh cut mat karna.[01:02:22] Abhinandan: So have we reached an age where first podcast hosts started using [01:02:30] fucking shitty language? Damn them, they're responsible. And now the inevitable transition is that political leaders use this kind of language and no one even raises an eyebrow anymore. I think Trump had kind of set that standard where he said the most hideous things and it was acceptable.[01:02:49] Abhinandan: Uh, and do you think it would even matter? And does it matter to you? Manisha, let me start with you. [01:02:55] manisha: Like language of politicians? [01:02:56] Abhinandan: Yeah, language of politicians. Like for, you know what Sanjay Raut said, and he said, "This is how people [01:03:00] talk," or, you know, the way Trump talks. I mean, this is a, something that many people have said in the past that, you know, this is...[01:03:07] Abhinandan: W- what do you think? [01:03:08] manisha: No, I think politicians need to be, I'm, uh, conservative on this. [01:03:12] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:03:13] manisha: I don't think you can say, "We'll talk like people talk," because then- ... people say a lot of things in their drawing rooms. [01:03:17] Chitra: Hmm. [01:03:18] manisha: Which we see a lot of people use that language, not just abuses, but the kind of things you can say about minorities.[01:03:23] manisha: Hmm. That earlier we would only hear some drunk uncle after, you know- Mm-hmm ... a few pegs of whiskey talk [01:03:30] like that, but now we, we hear politicians talk like that. So I think you have to set the standard. If you're a leader, uh, of a political party or if you're in public life- [01:03:38] Abhinandan: Right ... [01:03:39] manisha: you have to set a standard of propriety with language.[01:03:43] manisha: Um- [01:03:45] Abhinandan: What do you [01:03:45] manisha: think? Because Sanjay Raut also is pretty crass, I think. [01:03:48] Abhinandan: Yeah. [01:03:48] Shardool : He has always [01:03:48] manisha: been crass- Yeah ... [01:03:49] Shardool : but he's sort of- I mean, [01:03:50] manisha: you can't, you have to figure [01:03:51] Shardool : out- He removed his ND filter. [01:03:53] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:03:53] manisha: Yeah. [01:03:53] Abhinandan: What do you think? [01:03:54] Shardool : I, so let me come at this with the point of view of [01:04:00] someone who was a subscriber once.[01:04:01] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:04:02] Shardool : Do you remember the first email I wrote you? Yes. You won't. [01:04:04] Abhinandan: I, no, I do. It was super long. I still have it in my inbox. [01:04:06] Shardool : But, but I, I, I told you, okay, a lot of people criticize you for using the word fuck, but- Hmm ... that's fine. But expletives like galiyan- [01:04:14] Abhinandan: Hmm ... [01:04:14] Shardool : which Sanjay Raut used. Hmm. I will come to Trump later Almost it, it's sort of a joke and a cliche that in a new language you learn the cuss words first.[01:04:25] Basant : Mm. [01:04:25] Shardool : Because they are the extreme outbursts of emotion in general, on [01:04:30] principle, technically. Mm. But politicians are not normal people. Podcast hosts, no matter how big they are, not- Yeah ... are not politicians. [01:04:39] manisha: Yeah, I would- You know? Def- different standards for sure. Mm. [01:04:41] Shardool : Yes. And the other part is politician is speaking for everybody.[01:04:45] Shardool : Like the, the point we were discussing in the earlier issue. Like a, a, a, a victim ha- doesn't have to specify that they voted for the governing party. Mm. A victim is a victim. They are a citizen. They are supposed to have the equal rights. Same goes for [01:05:00] language. A politician, especially se- speaking in pu- on a public forum in front of media, addressing the, even his own party issues- Mm[01:05:08] Shardool : should not and must not use the language which can be misinterpreted and lose, loses the crux of his argument. [01:05:15] Abhinandan: Sure. [01:05:16] Shardool : One thing I'm gonna say, I, I spoke about that old thing because for a long time I've heard people talk about absolute free speech and, you know, not free speech, which is in India. [01:05:27] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:05:29] Shardool : I [01:05:30] used to be an absolutist, but I'm not anymore because words are violence.[01:05:34] Shardool : They may not look like it [01:05:35] Abhinandan: No, also in the age of social media, internet, the rules will have to change a little bit- No ... because it's not just about yelling fire in a, you know, crowded, uh, which, which was the test of- [01:05:45] Shardool : Yeah ... free speech And the other part is that, yes, you can say anything, but you, you cannot assume that your words would be interpreted the same way by everyone.[01:05:54] Abhinandan: Yeah, [01:05:55] Shardool : so- Right? And that applies to politicians more. [01:05:57] Abhinandan: And, uh, I mean, what I think is [01:06:00] my own language notwithstanding, I definitely think if you are in a position where you're representing a country or a state or in a, you know, certain position of, um, constitutional authority, governance, there's a certain propriety that comes with that.[01:06:19] Clip: Yes. [01:06:19] Abhinandan: You know, like the thing is that everyone cannot do the same thing. And, and those distinctions can be because of your position, because of your age- Yeah ... [01:06:30] because of your geography. Like, you know, not sit with your, the soles of your feet facing someone- Yeah ... in certain cultures is rude. Mm-hmm. You know, shitting in the drawing room is okay if you're a toddler.[01:06:40] Abhinandan: It's not okay if you're- ... you know, my age. So the rules vary on a, on variety of parameters. Yeah. So while I myself, I'm not a, um, you know, a purist or no dirty word use ... but I've been on several [01:07:00] debates. I will not drop the F-bomb on debate. [01:07:01] Shardool : Yeah. [01:07:02] Abhinandan: Uh, because that is, you know, where I used to be on those studio shows at NDTV- Mm-hmm[01:07:08] Abhinandan: the peop- But I will do it here. So I think every- [01:07:11] Clip: Yeah ... [01:07:11] Abhinandan: different kind of platform has different rules. And I think that rule has been blown out of the window by Trump. I mean, the language he uses is just insane. And I think it started off with stuff that he did not say as president, but he said when he was running for office, and those [01:07:30] tapes were leaked.[01:07:31] Abhinandan: And the fact that they had no impact on the outcome of the election, where not only did he use- [01:07:36] Shardool : Yeah, yeah. [01:07:37] Abhinandan: So many- ... expletives, the context of that use was disgusting and vile. [01:07:41] Shardool : Racist. [01:07:41] Abhinandan: And, and yet he won. So I think that kind of... Also, that, uh, dude in the parliament who referred to a- Yeah ... a Muslim, uh- Yeah ... MP.[01:07:53] Abhinandan: Who was it? Who, uh, it was a BJP MP only. [01:07:55] manisha: Biduri. Biduri. [01:07:56] Shardool : Ramesh Biduri about a BSP MP. [01:07:59] Abhinandan: So- [01:07:59] manisha: Yeah ... [01:07:59] Abhinandan: [01:08:00] I, I- I [01:08:00] manisha: mean, exactly [01:08:01] Abhinandan: So I, I just think that, you know, Sanjay Raut, you're right, he has always said the most hideous things. Now he's used A sexually colored expletive, but before that he has said horrible things about minorities back when he was- Oh, yes[01:08:20] Abhinandan: in the old Shiv [01:08:20] Shardool : Sena. He, and do you know, the politician, like a lot of people may say that you are sort of being a hypocrite that you speak like this. B- by you, I don't mean you, in general, like [01:08:30] people who are not politicians, who are commentating like us. Mm. You are being a hypocrite. Like, politician is addressing everyone.[01:08:36] Shardool : When, when they're- [01:08:37] Abhinandan: Yeah, that is clear. I said different rules and different forums. Yeah. It's not the same thing for everybody. So it has to be standardized and very cut in. It's like saying "... "We will cut out all the F-bombs from a film." [01:08:46] manisha: Yeah. [01:08:46] Abhinandan: I mean- [01:08:48] manisha: And also, like, um, even among journalists, there's a podcast and like you said, there's a news studio.[01:08:52] manisha: There are different formats- Yeah ... for different kind of language kind of. A- [01:08:55] Abhinandan: a- and of course, the stupidity of our decision-makers, which was that film about caste that [01:09:00] was made, and they said remove all the caste as references. [01:09:02] manisha: Bhonsle, [01:09:02] Abhinandan: Bhonsle. Arey, bloody the film is about caste. Imagine making a film about slavery- Yeah[01:09:07] Abhinandan: and saying you have to remove all the, the N-word you have to remove. [01:09:10] Clip: Mm. [01:09:10] Abhinandan: Then what are you making the film about? So anyway, right. With that, let's move to the emails. Uh, now for the emails. We only appreciate and act on the emails of subscribers. So if you're a subscriber, you can mail us at podcasts@newslaundry.com.[01:09:28] Abhinandan: I repeat, [01:09:30] podcasts@newslaundry.com, or you can click on the link in the show notes. Please keep your email below 150 words so we can include [01:09:35] Abhinandan: as many as possible. If it exceeds 150 words, we use AI to kind of compress it into 150 words. [01:09:43] Abhinandan: This week's emails have been curated by Abhinandan Sekri, which means I'm just gonna read them in the order they are.[01:09:48] Abhinandan: So yes, Manisha, please do the honors. [01:09:50] manisha: Ayush says, "I think Bengal politicians moving lines is just the thing which has been happening in Bengal for a long time. Coming from someone who only has an external view of the state and has [01:10:00] been to Bengal for six months out of the 26 years of his life, so I might be wrong, isn't this an extension of the usual case of the ruling class in India?[01:10:07] manisha: I believe it is different class, not related to everyday people, looking out for themselves, which has been happening basically since we got independent. What is your opinion? Could something as n- a normal person could do to... What can a normal person do to fix it? Otherwise, these fucking, these idiot... Sorry.[01:10:24] manisha: Otherwise, these idiot fucks will keep taking our taxes and spend it on themselves as [01:10:30] they own [01:10:31] Abhinandan: us." Ayush, I just think you gotta speak up here, and I think it has a more of an impact than you think. If in a public social gathering you can say, "Dude, this is bullshit- Then it does make a difference. And I think if enough people say it, it has the same impact that media has.[01:10:49] Abhinandan: But, um, on the, you know, the, I wanted to actually discuss this earlier, but I, my only input was the Shraddhalu joke, which was a good joke. [01:10:57] manisha: Yeah. I agree. [01:10:58] Abhinandan: Uh, today [01:11:00] there's a video that's gone viral of this man, who's obviously a really poor man, who stole the anklets of some idol at the temple, and he's been tied to a tractor- Mm[01:11:10] Abhinandan: and is being beaten up by the villagers. [01:11:14] Clip: Kahan? [01:11:14] Abhinandan: Just saying. Uh, I think in Madhya Pradesh somewhere. Uh, it's on, it's online- Mm ... and I think it's being shown by one of the media. I was just saying, this on the day when the Ram Mandir trust story is done. [01:11:25] manisha: Yeah. [01:11:26] Abhinandan: Compare how this thief is being treated for taking the anklets [01:11:30] of a idol- And how, how are the- And I, I still understand-[01:11:34] Abhinandan: Ram Mandir chores being treated? Mm-hmm. [01:11:36] manisha: And I still understand the thief taking it. [01:11:39] Abhinandan: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, [01:11:39] Shardool : yeah. That's the lowest level of crime [01:11:41] Abhinandan: committed. Exactly. [01:11:42] manisha: Yeah. [01:11:42] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. [01:11:43] manisha: Orin says, "Hi, love your work and efforts put by team in keeping public interest journalism alive. Kudos to the entire team. I have an eight-year-old, and I often think how she should get into the habit of reading news.[01:11:53] manisha: I started reading newspapers at 10, and that has shaped me growing up, and would want something similar for my daughter [01:12:00] and for kids of her generation. My daughter's school has a newspaper subscription to get them into this habit. I wanna ask if NL has thoughts of creating a fortnightly or monthly newspaper specially curated for children, subscription mode of course.[01:12:13] manisha: While I understand you may consider the commercials and the viability of it." [01:12:17] Abhinandan: That's a very good idea, Orin. We have discussed this internally. In fact, we've al- even got a layout which was created of that vertical scroll of a virtual, basically a PDF reading. [01:12:30] Yeah, it is a question of you have to dedicate a resource to do it well, and if it can't do it well, we'd rather do it- Mm[01:12:35] Abhinandan: at all. But this is definitely something that's on our radar, and hopefully as soon as we can dedicate a resource to it, we will be doing this. [01:12:41] manisha: Rohit says, "I watched two seasons of Freedom at Midnight web series. In the series, they omit a lot of details, but particularly they don't mention VHP, RSS, Savarkar, and they don't even name Nathuram Godse.[01:12:50] manisha: It frames Gandhi's assassination solely as a reaction to the 55 crore fund released to Pakistan fast, while ignoring prior attempts on him. It portrays communal violence as [01:13:00] one-sided, like it's a retaliation of Muslim communalism from Hindus. There's no Hindu communalism in the entire series. Nehru's portrayed as always sidelining, undermining Patel.[01:13:09] manisha: There's no role of Mr. Ambedkar except a footnote at the end. This subtle sanitization of history feels far more dangerous than overt propaganda like Durandar. Thus, I feel we will become like Pakistan, where the so-called liberal voice is also center right or communal, and there will be no real reform in any space, political or social."[01:13:26] manisha: Hmm. Although I must say that Freedom at Midnight [01:13:30] itself, I mean, there was, there was a mention of Savarkar and all of course, but it didn't talk about Ambedkar at all. It was pretty much Nehru, Patel. Yeah, [01:13:39] Abhinandan: true. [01:13:39] manisha: Yeah. I mean, so if it's based on the book, it'll, it'll be based on... And, uh, the fast is one of the key reasons that the book ascribes to why he wanted to be, they, they wanted to kill Gandhi.[01:13:50] Abhinandan: Uh, also I will say Savarkar is become a big name now. And because I had to interview, um, [01:14:00] Arun Shourie, so I had to read that book, uh, which I'm glad I did. And because there were so many things about Savarkar which I ended up reading, uh, during that whole year when there was a lot of Savarkar. What's clear is Savarkar was actually a non-entity- [01:14:13] Shardool : Yeah[01:14:13] Abhinandan: after election. So- It's, I mean, of course, very surprising that Ambedkar is not a bigger character in that series because he was very relevant. He was a, he was a big personality and politically significant. Savarkar, just these guys have [01:14:30] thussaud him everywhere. He was a sidey from hell. He was the background dancer in the song after the credits.[01:14:39] Abhinandan: So he was actually completely irrelevant. Even the RSS had said, "Tu wahi baith yaar. [01:14:45] Shardool : We don't want you." Yeah, yeah. Didn't, didn't we sort of... I had clashes with desk. They said, "No, Savarkar was important." I was like, "No, he wasn't." So- "Mahal Kolwalkar didn't even like him." [01:14:52] Abhinandan: So he was actually very relevant, uh, post-independence, even before that, but yeah.[01:14:57] manisha: Vishnu says, "Hi. India was never [01:15:00] so cowardly when it comes to its own people. I'll keep it within the limit. India being developing country never stopped us before. Being a developing country has never stopped us before. I don't see how anyone can justify the government after the current events. Manmohan Singh, the weak PM and a puppet, as some people like to say, was and always will be stronger than the current one, who learned from the RSS leaders to write mercy petitions China, Iran, and other countries have stood their ground against US, and even Pakistan does what they want without losing any support.[01:15:29] manisha: Whereas we [01:15:30] have been very careful and still get attacked, and US actively supports our opposers. There's no playing both sides on this, and why with this government? There are scams every day, complete opacity on their actions, protesters and people are jailed unjustly without any emergency. Oppressed communities are treated horribly.[01:15:45] manisha: Normal people are highly taxed while corporates aren't. [01:15:47] Clip: Hmm. [01:15:48] Abhinandan: I, [01:15:48] Shardool : I have to say one thing, Vishnu, right? [01:15:50] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:15:51] Shardool : You cannot be a good sailor if you are afraid to get wet. Right. These people don't have spine. What do you expect? [01:15:57] Abhinandan: I could not be a good sailor 'cause I do ulti [01:16:00] whenever I'm on, on sea. I remember when I, I used to have to shoot the fishing sequences when I used to do those two shows- I am the artistic [01:16:05] Shardool : one.[01:16:05] Shardool : Metaphor. Metaphor ... [01:16:07] Abhinandan: I used to just, um, we had to go and shoot, and I remember we were shooting a sequence of this, uh, uh, blue marlin. Oh. Chennai, they had started a blue marlin fishing kind of thing this guy had started, and I said, "Theke shooting ke liye, we'll just go till here. Thoda shots le lunga. Wapas aa jayenge."[01:16:27] Abhinandan: Andar jake, he got so excited. [01:16:30] My cameraman got so excited. "No, no, let's go fishing. Let's catch. Let's catch." I was bloody doing ulti everywhere. So I hate the ocean. Anyway, I will just read two more emails. Uh, Rohit says, "For book club Suitable Boy is too big for starters, uh, and people who want to start getting into reading."[01:16:49] Clip: Hmm. [01:16:50] Abhinandan: Abhinan said he wanted an Indian author to start the book club. You could have picked any other book with a short, engaging non-fictions. There are plenty. Example, Benjamin. [01:17:00] Benjamin who? Anyway, uh, Devdutt Pattanaik, Atish Taseer, Manu Joseph, V.S. Khandekar, or otherwise Abhinandan's favorite, Chetan Bhagat.[01:17:09] Abhinandan: So Rohit, uh, first of all, I-- we are going to get all these people. [01:17:15] manisha: Hmm. [01:17:15] Abhinandan: We'll definitely get Manu. We'll definitely get Atish. We'll definitely get Chetan as well. [01:17:19] manisha: Benjamin is a very famous-- Good Days was his book. I [01:17:22] Abhinandan: see. But [01:17:22] manisha: I know him as Benjamin, not, uh, yeah, but, uh- So- ... he's, uh- [01:17:26] Abhinandan: But Rohit- ... Malayalam ... the, the beauty of our book club is [01:17:30] that you can come there because you don't read, but want to show others you do.[01:17:36] Abhinandan: Sure. So you come there, say minimum, gather as much information, and go back home and say, "You know, what I really liked about Sensor is that, boss, yehi toh hai mauka. Mauka, mauka." So that is-- this is-- there are double-- there's double advantage to our book club. Come because you read, and also come because you don't read.[01:17:54] Abhinandan: See the beauty? So here's a QR code. Click in the link. Do join [01:18:00] us wherever you are. But yes, we'll get all these people as well. And finally, uh, I just wanted to finish off, uh, these emails. Uh, 59-- No, sorry. This is from Srinath Sampath. Abhinandan was called out for seemingly using the word patronize incorrectly when he didn't.[01:18:17] Abhinandan: The word patronize does in fact mean to be a patron of, while it also means to adopt the air of condescension. If you continue patronizing the audience by assuming they won't know the difference, they might stop patronizing you. Sampath- [01:18:26] Shardool : Awesome ... [01:18:27] Abhinandan: in 59 words, you have demonstrated the [01:18:30] beauty of the English language.[01:18:31] Abhinandan: Yes. The beauty. [01:18:32] manisha: I admit I was wrong. [01:18:34] Shardool : Chhand likh diya angrezi [01:18:35] Abhinandan: mein. Chhand, exactly. Chhand likh diya. Uh- Yes ... there is one more you want to include, uh, Manisha? Yeah, sure. [01:18:43] manisha: Yeah. Okay. Navnoor Singh says, "Hi, NL. Congratulations on CBSE investigation and to Sarthak for choosing NL over godi media. I have two constructive criticisms.[01:18:52] manisha: First, during the discussion on communalism in Hafta 593, the absence of the 1984 anti-Sikh pogrom, I prefer not to call it a riot, was [01:19:00] striking. Discussions often draw a line from Babri to Gujarat while overlooking 1984, despite many progressives highlighting that continuity. Similarly, the anniversary of Operation Blue Star received little attention outside the BBC.[01:19:12] manisha: Second, I was unconvinced by Anand's defense of Indian diplomatic prowess in the Halay Ling episode. From my experience in Canada, I've seen diplomats respond to difficult questions with generic talking points rather than substantive answers. Finally, Anand often appears to defend the Indian state more than critically examining it.[01:19:29] manisha: Is that [01:19:30] an intentional editorial role?" No. That's just him. "Please take this as constructive feedback from a subscriber who's been following NL since COVID. Thank you." [01:19:39] Abhinandan: Right. Thank you so much for those inputs. If you want to give us advice, feedback, suggestions, criticism that we should take seriously, do subscribe.[01:19:50] Abhinandan: Here's a QR code. Link in the show notes. Pay to keep news free, because when the public pays, the public is served, and we need your help and support so that we can grow and have [01:20:00] more reporters in every state in the country. With that, let's get the recommendations of the week. Manisha, you wanna go first?[01:20:06] manisha: So do watch the human, uh, UN Human Rights Council, uh, s- press conference chaired by Justice Muralidhar, our very own. Um, I think it's an incisive watch- Mm ... and also read the report. And I think if you wanna feel like we keep-- You're saying that we keep, you know, encountering negative people and there's hopelessness.[01:20:24] manisha: I think this person is just someone who should give us so much hope. [01:20:27] Clip: Hmm. [01:20:28] manisha: Uh, just the way... [01:20:30] Despite everything that happened after the Delhi riots, how he was shunted out of the Delhi High Court. Um, but I think the way he's carried on is just amazing and gives all of us a lot of hope. So this report, everyone must read.[01:20:42] manisha: Everyone must listen to the press conference also. Uh, we have an interview with Anish Gawande, so please, it's Pride Month. And although- Yes ... uh, Dhanya was telling me that it's very like, we hate doing Pride Month at The News Minute because they actually do a lot of reporting on it, and they don't want-- It becomes like a corporate thing.[01:20:59] manisha: You know- Mm ... like a [01:21:00] corporate speak. Yeah, ˈBA month hai woh. So you do tokenism around it. So I did do a token-- I started off as a token interview, but I think it's a really fascinating interview where Anish has a, a very unique, uh, lens on solidarities because he's openly gay. He's, um, working with people in politics who are not necessarily progressive, who very openly sometimes say that we are gay-phobic.[01:21:25] manisha: Hmm. "Chi ladke kiss kaise kar sakte hai?" That type. But he's working in these [01:21:30] spaces while striking solidarity. So at this point where we want to kind of cancel people over what terminologies they use or we pick up umbrage on people not being perfect allies, I think it's a good interview to understand how people can actually come together on a common agenda while being imperfect allies.[01:21:49] manisha: Hmm. So I think it's a, it's a nice conversation from that point of view, so do tune into that. [01:21:54] Abhinandan: Sir. [01:21:55] Shardool : Team, three recommendations. Hmm. First is, uh, uh, so much has been happening, so one of [01:22:00] our colleague's report was less sort of got less... Screen time is not the right word, but you get the gist. [01:22:05] Clip: Less attention.[01:22:06] Clip: Hmm. [01:22:06] Shardool : Yeah, attention. Yes. So our Hridesh Jha report, uh, about 10 days ago it was published on our website on kuno and cheetahs and, and Hridesh is very apt and experienced in- Hmm ... environmental reporting. So it's a good one to read and understand how these people fuck up even the easiest and simplest of projects because of egos and abstract ideas.[01:22:27] Shardool : So first one is that. The [01:22:30] second one is a 2009 film. I re-watched it by incidentally, uh, last week. Up. It's an animated film. Oh, very nice Up is nice, but I want you to watch it for one reason, that how without, like, m- hardly three sentences of dialogue, the first 10 minutes create emotional connection with the characters who are animated and fantastical.[01:22:52] Shardool : It's not even real. [01:22:53] Basant : Mm. [01:22:54] Shardool : And our filmmakers should learn, like, people talk, but they don't mean anything. So- Mm. And the second one, third one [01:23:00] is also that. I don't remember recommending this game, Alan Wake 2. This is about a writer who's trapped in a world and who's writing to escape that sort of pocket of reality, and what he's typing is happening in the real world.[01:23:13] Shardool : It is an artistic and storytelling marvel. So these three are my recommendations. [01:23:20] Abhinandan: Right. So I have three recommendations. Uh, one is the same recommendation that Basant had. He stole mine before I could recommend it. [01:23:30] I loved the film. Not without flaws. There were two things that I found- You saw it [01:23:33] manisha: in theater?[01:23:34] manisha: Yeah, [01:23:34] Abhinandan: saw it in theater. There were two things that I found very jarring. What those were you'll have to listen to the Awful and Awesome Entertainment Wrap. But overall, I really liked the film. Uh, I just think it's a very difficult film to make. Uh, and he did masterfully, other than two things which are just very annoying.[01:23:52] Abhinandan: Uh, but yeah, I think Diljit is such a great actor. Uh, I think Naseer is, of course, a phenomenal [01:24:00] actor, and so is Rajat Kapoor. Yes. He's also done such a great job. The second recommendation is this, uh, fascinating podcast which seems almost fantastical till you realize that actually within a lifetime there has to be an answer to it.[01:24:17] Abhinandan: It's a Planet Money podcast, The Real Horror of Alien and How It Explains Why We Are Not Paid Enough. It talks about tax jurisdiction once, you know, [01:24:30] the outer space is a reality where there's commerce happening there. Oh, yes. Like these data centers when they are there. So right now you can set up a company, let's say in Singapore or in New Jersey or in one of these, uh, you know, islands- Oh, yes[01:24:43] Abhinandan: or tax-free island to avail th- this is my tax jurisdiction. Yes, yes. [01:24:47] Shardool : Ireland also. [01:24:48] Abhinandan: So if your commerce is ... And then I'm just so our audience who don't really get into the taxes A lot of places, it's not enough where you're [01:25:00] registered, it is where is your commerce happening. And accordingly, a country can say, "Your commerce is happening here.[01:25:05] Abhinandan: I don't care where you're registered. Some tax you have to pay here." [01:25:07] Shardool : Yeah. [01:25:09] Abhinandan: Now, if your commerce is happening in outer space- ... what will the tax jurisdiction be? It's a fascinating podcast. I loved it. Uh, and my third recommendation, it is just a regular report that I read in today's, uh, Indian Express. A fire alleged assault on JK police personnel by 40 army men, including officers.[01:25:28] Abhinandan: A colonel has been booked, a major has [01:25:30] been booked, and it is a clash between the police and the army on road rage. Two trucks coming, you move. No, you move. It is not the first clash between the police and the army, but I would really like, uh, everyone to read it. And this is a big clash. Like sometimes, you know, positions are taken on a tweet on prime time.[01:25:57] Abhinandan: Full disclosure, I'm a Fauji's son. I have a softer spot [01:26:00] for the Fauj, although I don't think they mu- must be supported for everything. I think they do hideous things as well, but are their institutions better than the rest? What happened to Jawaan, soldier Jawaan border pe khade hai? Cops, in my view, are the vilest and[01:26:13] Abhinandan: of vile You know, uh, institution in our country. And each time, I remember when I was a kid in Dehradun, there was this huge clash between, uh, the Faujis because Dehradun of course is a huge center for the army. One, uh, [01:26:30] plainclothes officer and his buddy and their wives had gone to see a film, and some cops misbehaved with them.[01:26:37] Abhinandan: Of course, he went back, he came back in a three-ton and smashed the fuck out of them. And I remember I must've been what, 11, 10 at the time, and I was so happy. Like, "Dude, I wish you had like bashed up everybody there." I don't know what happened to that major. Uh, but yeah, this is something that, what I found fascinating is how sketchy the details are.[01:26:56] Abhinandan: What did they do? What did the cops do? What [01:27:00] led to them getting off and beating up the cops? Oh. It is just FIRs have been filed, prevented from doing their duty. So of course we can't send anyone to Kashmir, but Manisha, if we have some mandir who can give us a blow-by-blow account- Yeah ... why did these Faujis beat the fuck out of those J&K cops?[01:27:22] Abhinandan: We might know whether they deserved it or not. With those recommendations, I would like to thank our panel, Manisha [01:27:30] Pandey- Thank you ... Shardul Katayan. Thank you to our wonderful sound recordist, Anil. Thank you to our producer, Saurabh, who today hasn't tied his hair, so he has shampooed it probably this morning.[01:27:39] Abhinandan: And Amit. Thank you all. Thank you to our subscribers. We leave you with this song that is apt for the kind of chori that is happening in temples these days. It is from a old film called Hera Pheri, which would've been banned had it been released today. But it had predicted exactly what's gonna happen.[01:27:56] Abhinandan: Have a fantastic week and weekend. [01:27:58] Song : [01:28:00] Bye-bye.[01:28:14] Song : माल लगा है घटने, लगा कलेजा फटने तो है रात लगी है बटने। पर चिंता की।[01:28:30] [01:28:36] Song : बिल्कुल अरे पहुंचा देंगे उसके कानों तक हम। ये तेरी। क्योंकि[01:29:00] [01:29:30] [01:29:36] manisha: Thank you for your subscription. You're changing the world by changing the way news is funded. For the smoothest News Laundry experience, download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our paywall podcasts, and you'll also get access to all free News Laundry shows. Keep us ad-free and subscriber-funded.[01:29:54] manisha: Help us grow. Tell people who listen to you to pay to keep news free. Subscribe to News [01:30:00] Laundry. Keep journalism independent

2026/6/27

Off the PM’s plane: The rewiring of India’s foreign affairs beat

A decades-old convention ended quietly in 2014. Journalists lost their seat on the PM’s plane – and with it, access to the conversations and questioning that once shaped India’s foreign affairs reporting.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-06-26/p1urxsbr/NLVisualByManjul25062026.png?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption>Illustration by Manjul </figcaption></figure>When Prime Minister Narendra Modi travels abroad, he does so aboard Air India One – a taxpayer-funded Boeing 777-300ER fleet that cost Rs 8,400 crore and comes with a press briefing room. The public still pays for the plane, but the press briefings have disappeared. Since 2014, no Indian journalists have travelled with the prime minister on his foreign visits, ending a decades-old democratic convention that allowed reporters to question officials, gather independent information and report beyond the government’s official narrative. It was a deliberate decision to close the plane’s door to foreign affairs reporters. In an <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WinnZR7SeGA&t=6159s">interview</a></ins> with Smita Prakash, the PM’s former principal secretary Nripendra Misra recalled presenting Modi with a list of journalists who were expected to accompany him on his first foreign visit, as was the convention. According to Misra, Modi questioned why reporters needed to travel on the PM’s aircraft at all. Told that ending the practice could sour relations with the press, Modi remained unconvinced. He argued that news organisations were free to send their own “monarchs”. The instruction, Misra recalled, was clear: no journalists would travel with him. Since then, Modi has undertaken more than 180 foreign visits.Over these years, access to India’s foreign-policy machinery has been replaced by its management, first-hand reporting by relayed information, and the coverage of diplomacy by coverage of spectacle. To map that shift, and to understand the impact on accountability and foreign policy itself, Newslandry spoke to several journalists who have worked the beat from the Vajpayee years to the present.What a seat on the plane meantThough being of the view that PM Modi made the right decision of closing the doors to the press, journalist Vir Sanghvi recollected on his blog the scoops that journalists got exclusively from being on that same plane. He <ins><a href="https://www.virsanghvi.com/Article-Details.aspx?key=1089">wrote</a></ins>, “Somebody once asked me if, during my trips on the PM’s plane, I ever saw the press party get special access to a scoop that justified the trip. I can think of only two – both ephemeral. Once we got Brajesh Mishra (former NSA) to tell us that the PM would meet Naga separatist leaders in Japan. And once, after a disastrous dinner between Manmohan Singh and Musharraf, some of us got a blow-by-blow account. (The HT got it from Natwar Singh; NDTV from the Pakistani delegation.) And that’s about it.”The blog added, however, “Getting on to the PM’s plane was never about scoops or transparency. At most you got the opportunity – but only in the Vajpayee era – to develop sources who could be useful in the future.”It was more than that. Being on the same aircraft as the PM meant a space for questions by seasoned journalists across portfolios, often in an unscripted setting. In fact, the MEA archives themselves show the kind of questions journalists were able to ask.As per a <ins><a href="https://www.mea.gov.in/media-briefings?dtl/3147/Prime_Ministers_interaction_with_media_on_board_VVIP_flight">transcript</a></ins> still available on the MEA website, during Manmohan Singh’s return from the East Asia Summit in 2010, reporters asked him not only about relations with China, Pakistan and the United States, but also about the 2G spectrum case, the Adarsh Housing Society scandal, Commonwealth Games preparations, the Food Security Bill and a possible Cabinet reshuffle.Kallol Bhattacharjee, Senior Assistant Editor with The Hindu, argued that the value of accompanying the prime minister was never confined to breaking exclusives. “The whole idea of taking journalists aboard goes back to the 1960s,” he said, recalling how journalists such as Kuldip Nayar travelled with prime ministers beginning in the Jawaharlal Nehru-Lal Bahadur Shastri era.Bhattacharjee pointed to press conferences aboard the aircraft where prime ministers had to sometimes answer on subjects they were not prepared for. He cited an exchange during Lal Bahadur Shastri’s tenure when he was questioned about the Haji Pir Pass following the Tashkent negotiations and was visibly taken aback. “These were very special engagements,” Bhattacharjee said. “Not because you got a scoop, but because you could see the state thinking aloud.”These engagements are now hard to imagine. And this vacuum has been filled by an editorial realignment where newsrooms deploy TV news anchors to cover the PM’s foreign visits. Instead of reporting rigour, viewers see the likes of Anjana Om Kashyap, Sudhir Chaudhary, and Navika Kumar talk about how <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-lGw6qcrnwI">electric</a></ins> the relationship between Modi and Trump is or was. There is Chaudhary's expert analysis of <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75W6a_JIeEY">body language</a></ins> between world leaders, and Shiv Aroor’s reportage of the “<ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9u2MxsZzes">fervour and adulation</a></ins>” the PM receives from the diaspora.A former TV anchor, covering foreign policy since the early 2000s, said that not taking the press has proven to be counter-productive for the Modi government as well.The journalist recalled Modi’s trip to central Asia in 2015, “He was travelling to five countries. It wasn’t physically possible for any newsroom to send five reporters to cover these events. And a single reporter travelling on their own wouldn’t be able to make it to everywhere in time to cover the story. What ended up happening was there were no journalists covering the story. Even news agencies only sent their cameramen. So I was told that the PM was upset by the little coverage. And this indeed was an important trip because central Asia is not paid enough attention to.”Journalists also point to the practical difficulties of covering ambitious itineraries. Travelling commercially often means multiple connecting flights, longer travel times and reaching destinations ahead of the prime minister’s arrival without access to the official delegation. Covering multi-country tours has consequently become more expensive and considerably more difficult for individual reporters.“It’s a norm across the world when heads of state travel, journalists travel with them. It gives you easier access, connectivity, and it also makes it easier for the government to give briefs to the press on the way back about certain meetings,” they added.Having travelled on a plane with Atal Bihari Vajpayee and Manmohan Singh, the journalist said they both used to address the press entourage on board. “If they were not able to, then the National Security Advisor, the Foreign Secretary, could be doing a press conference on board, on record or off record, to give you a perspective on the developments. This has clearly stopped.”The return flight often served as the first sustained opportunity to question the prime minister after a foreign visit. Initial questions typically focused on the trip itself before moving to developments back home, giving political editors travelling with the delegation an opportunity to ask about domestic controversies. While not equivalent to the freewheeling press conferences seen in some democracies, these sessions nevertheless subjected foreign visits to immediate questioning rather than leaving only prepared public messaging.Both the journalists pointed out that even US President Donald Trump takes critical media with him on his plane, despite the routine tension between them. For instance, in November 2025, Donald Trump called a Bloomberg News correspondent a “<ins><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/nov/18/trump-calls-reporter-piggy-bloomberg">piggy</a></ins>” during a clash onboard Air Force One, when she asked him about the <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/topic/epstein-files">Epstein Files</a></ins>. In the US, journalists who travel with the president as part of the White House press pool <ins><a href="https://whca.press/covering-the-white-house/resources/https-whca-press-wp-content-uploads-2025-05-website2025-welcome-to-the-white-house-beat-1-pdf/?utm_source=chatgpt.com">pay their own way</a></ins>. As per the White House Correspondents Association (WHCA), a 13-person group travels with the President outside the capital region. Sometimes referred to as the protective pool. This includes three wire reporters (AP, Reuters and Bloomberg), four photographers (AP, Reuters, AFP and New York Times), three from network TV, a radio correspondent, and two print reporters (in the print and WHCA seats). Each outlet pays the full cost of travel, except for the print seat, where costs for each trip are shared 14 ways by members of that rotation. The print poolers serve the entire press corps with reports on the president’s activities.Indian newsrooms were willing to pay for such an arrangement. “See the thing is, nobody said we’re not ready to pay money for the flights. At the end of the day, newsrooms are still spending money to send reporters to get ‘Modi chanting’ and diaspora stories. They would be more than willing to pay for the prime minister’s flight – just how America’s Air Force One operates. Because it is more about access and connectivity,” said the former anchor.  The former anchor also pointed out that newsrooms were initially willing to send one, sometimes even three reporters abroad in the Modi years, because capturing the ‘Modi-Modi’ chanting by the diaspora would be “an adrenaline rush. It will get them views. But that started waning, it had diminishing returns.”Asked if not taking the press on the plane made the beat a more level playing field, the journalist was scathing about the usual justification. “This is an oft heard argument that ‘Oh journalists miss those visits, because they used to get free booze or travel’. Which is ridiculous. Yes, there was free booze but journalists travelling with the Prime Minister were not alcoholics or going there because of it.”The idea that accompanying the prime minister was a taxpayer-funded junket also obscures how the system actually worked. While the airfare was covered because journalists travelled on the official aircraft, news organisations bore the remaining costs. Reporters had to stay in the same hotels as the prime minister’s delegation for logistical and security reasons, often making the trip substantially more expensive than booking commercial travel independently. During multilateral summits such as the UN General Assembly, those hotels routinely cost several hundred dollars a night.The arrangement was driven less by privilege than logistics. Because baggage for Air India One had to be security-cleared and loaded the previous night, the entire media contingent stayed at a single hotel from where luggage could be collected together before departure. On the final day, reporters travelled with the prime minister’s convoy through official engagements before boarding the aircraft directly.<blockquote>As per a transcript still available on the MEA website, during Manmohan Singh’s return from the East Asia Summit in 2010, reporters asked him not only about relations with China, Pakistan and the United States, but also about the 2G spectrum case, the Adarsh Housing Society scandal, Commonwealth Games preparations, the Food Security Bill and a possible Cabinet reshuffle.</blockquote>Idlis and coffee, sometimes a quoteTo understand what was lost over the years, start with what the beat used to feel like. A senior print journalist covering the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) for over 30 years described a ministry that was more accessible.“We used to come to the MEA nearly every day. While formal briefings weren’t held daily, it was possible to meet the spokesperson almost every day. Many foreign ministers like Jaswant Singh (1999-2002), Yashwant Sinha (2002-2004), Natwar Singh (2004-2005), and SM Krishna (2009-2012) were quite accessible,” they said. “SM Krishna was particularly famous for this. Reporters would show up at his house at 8 am because they knew he would comment on whatever the big story of the day was. In those days there was a lot happening on Pakistan and the United States, and he would often serve reporters idlis and coffee in the morning,” they added.Krishna was the foreign minister from 2009 to 2012, which was an unusually busy phase for both Pakistan and US relations. India was grappling with the fallout of the 26/11 Mumbai attacks in 2008. The government was trying to balance demands for Pakistani accountability with periodic efforts to restart dialogue. There were repeated meetings between Indian and Pakistani leaders, revelations from the David Headley investigation, debates over terrorism and cross-border militancy, and frequent diplomatic crises that required public responses. After the India-US civil nuclear agreement, the two countries were expanding cooperation and India’s role in Afghanistan and the broader region was being discussed between New Delhi and Washington.The access ran deeper than the minister. “The joint secretaries would speak to us, usually not on the record, but they would help us understand what was happening. Whether it was China, India’s neighbourhood, the United States or something else, you generally had a good sense of where the government stood,” said the journalist about the porous nature of the ministry, without wanting to make it sound like “Shangri-La”.For this access, several journalists said Indian news organisations would have willingly paid for seats on the prime minister’s aircraft under a White House-style model. Since the journey itself functioned as a rolling background briefing. Long flights created hours of informal conversations with officials accompanying the PM. Reporters often landed having already filed multiple stories explaining what India hoped to achieve, where negotiations had stalled and which issues officials considered sensitive. Much of this understanding never emerged through official statements but through accumulated conversations that helped journalists interpret events beyond the text of joint declarations.<div><blockquote>The joint secretaries would speak to us, usually not on the record, but they would help us understand what was happening. Whether it was China, India’s neighbourhood, the United States or something else, you generally had a good sense of where the government stood.</blockquote>A senior print journalist covering the MEA for 30 years</div>New exclusives, same feedAccess has now been reconstituted on the ground.Speaking to Newslaundry, Kallol Bhattacharjee said, "Fifteen years ago, reporting worked very differently. If you wanted information, you had to call people, make the effort to go to Shastri Bhawan, meet officials, and build relationships. In July 2014, after the Modi government came to power, I first heard that a WhatsApp group was being created for MEA beat reporters.” The result is a press corps that competes on air but shares the feed. Bhattacharjee highlights how reporters may work for different news outlets, but they are part of the same WhatsApp groups – “a kind of parallel organisation.” “If you're not part of that group, you're out of the information loop. And if you're not part of that network, you may not be entertained physically either,” he said.Another print journalist, who now works for an international newsroom, pointed to an impact on transparency and accountability in the Modi years. “Not just in journalism but even in public policy space. You need voices to give you other points of view so you don’t start believing your own narrative. You need subject experts. Not just journalists but retired diplomats but all of them are very cautious and measured now.”Another casualty is the exclusive, Bhattacharjee points out.“Earlier, if you secured an interview with someone like Benazir Bhutto, it was genuinely exclusive. There would not be a dozen other reporters standing next to you. A few weeks ago, the Nepalese foreign minister addressed a press conference in Delhi. Very few journalists asked questions. Once it ended, reporters lined up for brief one-on-one interactions and later presented them on their respective channels as exclusives. But that is not an exclusive; it is a news huddle. And often, nobody has a fresh question because they do not know the subject deeply enough.”The same instinct – to relay rather than report – surfaced during Operation Sindoor, he says. “Most people broke news through WhatsApp calls and social media updates rather than through on-the-ground reporting. But if someone says an aircraft has crashed, how do you verify it? You have to go to the spot. That kind of reporting, the sort <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0tQq0LTff0">Tavleen Singh</a></ins> or Harinder Baweja did during 1984 has become much harder.”<div><blockquote>If you're not part of that group, you're out of the information loop. And if you're not part of that network, you may not be entertained physically either.</blockquote>Kallol Bhattacharjee, The Hindu</div>Chokepoint narrows, nuance is casualtyThe chokepoint for access has changed too.An MEA reporter who began their career nearly two decades ago explained how entry once worked. “When I began covering the MEA beat in the mid-2000s, reporters were expected to move beyond official briefings and cultivate their own sources within the ministry. Unlike many other ministries, where information largely flowed through the Press Information Bureau, the MEA revolved around its External Publicity (XP) Division, which handled media relations and briefings,” they said.A reporter’s first task was to get onto the XP mailing list. From there, the job was to build relationships with officials across the ministry, including directors and joint secretaries. Policymakers were more accessible: during negotiations over the India-US nuclear deal, the reporter recalled, reporters could call officials directly and request meetings to better understand complex policy issues.The spokesperson’s office, too, had standing. “Senior diplomats such as Navtej Sarna and Vishnu Prakash, who served as spokespersons, enjoyed considerable autonomy in handling the press. While briefings occasionally featured planted questions, they were relatively freewheeling compared to today. The spokesperson was expected to be among the ministry’s most capable officers and had significant discretion in dealing with the media,” they said. Over time, the journalist argues, the XP Division has evolved into a more important gatekeeper. “Information now circulates through official WhatsApp groups, making access to those networks crucial for reporters covering the beat.”The space for critical questions has shrunk too, according to several journalists. During an off the record chit-chat with an MEA official, the reporter quoted above recalled being told how a critical media could actually help strengthen India’s hand during negotiations. When Indian diplomats face pressure from another country on a contentious issue, public criticism and media scrutiny can be used to demonstrate domestic political constraints.“For instance, the US-India trade deal. If India is being pushed to make concessions, negotiators can point to criticism in the media and say, ‘Look, there is already opposition to this at home. We can only go so far,’” they added. The journalist also argued that with an increase in planted questions, foreign affairs coverage often becomes disproportionately focused on Pakistan, to the detriment of other important issues. “Even when significant developments were taking place elsewhere, discussions would quickly return to Pakistan,” they said. “The level of attention it received was staggering. Everything else tended to get overshadowed by what Pakistan had said or done.” According to the journalist, the pull is partly commercial. “Pakistan sells on television and it sells with editors. As a result, many other aspects of foreign policy receive far less attention than they deserve.”The cost is a loss of nuance for a relationship that needs it. “You end up missing the big picture and an informed debate. No shades of grey have been left. This is a ministry with lots of shades of grey. Even for India-Pakistan, there should be a healthy debate. It has always been an emotional issue, but now it is much more charged up and the atmosphere is very polarised. Anyone suggesting diplomacy, even though the RSS chief did suggest it a few months ago, will face trolling. “Even when Pakistan was mediating the US-Iran war, there has been no serious discussion on what it exactly means. There is little depth in the analysis. There is a kind of effort to present diplomacy as black or white but diplomacy is anything but black or white.”Several journalists pointed to the India-US civil nuclear negotiations as an example of the kind of reporting that once characterised the beat.In December 2006, Siddharth Varadarajan reported for<a href="https://svaradarajan.com/2006/12/10/u-s-nuclear-act-ignored-rice-plea-on-key-points/"> </a><ins><a href="https://svaradarajan.com/2006/12/10/u-s-nuclear-act-ignored-rice-plea-on-key-points/">The Hindu</a></ins> that US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice had privately urged Congress to amend key provisions of the nuclear legislation after India objected to them, and that many of those requests had ultimately been rejected.The story revealed details of negotiations that neither government had publicly disclosed, allowing readers to understand the competing interests that shaped the deal.<div><blockquote>Pakistan sells on television and it sells with editors. As a result, many other aspects of foreign policy receive far less attention than they deserve.</blockquote>An MEA reporter</div>Reliance on spectacleWhile the critical questions have dwindled, several reporters pointed out the growing emphasis on spectacle and messaging during the PM’s foreign visits, whether it be a hand gesture, a selfie, or another leader’s string of praise. An almost irrelevant moment of giving a “helping hand” to Trump at G7 apparently broke the internet as per Indian outlets; enough for video <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HVPlyEWcYE">reports</a></ins> on it.Planted questions or controlled interactions are not new, but they have accelerated significantly after 2014, the former anchor argued. “I’ve lived through a time when press conferences were freewheeling and unscripted,” they said. “Even when a foreign head of state was visiting Delhi, journalists could ask questions that had nothing to do with the bilateral agenda.”Another senior journalist cited the example of a story unthinkable today. Recalling a joint appearance with a visiting foreign leader, they said, “At the time, Congress workers were protesting against an Aamir Khan film, tearing down posters and attacking cinema halls in Gujarat. During their joint appearance at Hyderabad House, then PM Singh was asked about the controversy. He actually took a stand <ins><a href="https://www.rediff.com/movies/report/aamir1/20060525.htm">against</a></ins> his own party workers and said it was wrong.”The spectacle that follows PM Modi’s visits, such as the “Melodi” moment, has been taken to an “industrial scale”, the print journalist said. “The dances and performances, all of it has been taken to an industrial scale. In the old days, children who were attached to the embassy or to the Indian Cultural Institute, they would perform for the PM, whoever it was.”They pointed out that such performances are more about a projection from a highly controlled environment, played up as an influence of our soft power. While claims that Indian culture, yoga or Hindi have gained global visibility under the current government are often <ins><a href="https://valdaiclub.com/a/highlights/instruments-and-narratives-of-indian-cultural-diplomacy">overstated</a></ins>, the journalist said, the real change has been the new political centrality of the diaspora. Even former PM Jawaharlal Nehru attracted massive crowds during some of his foreign visits, but there is a shift towards the diaspora now that is more significant. According to the print journalist, many of the large diaspora events organised during foreign visits are often presented as engagement with a host country, but are in reality engagements with Indian communities living there. There is another area where the government has made a deliberate move: courting the foreign press. An international journalist pointed out how “there has been a greater effort to reach out to international media since Operation Sindoor because there is a growing sense within the government to pay attention to the international narrative.” On whether the government has succeeded, they said “it is not so easy to influence” the international media.Bhattacharjee cautioned against overstating the idea that foreign policy has become excessively centralised in the PMO. “The prime minister has always been the centre of India's foreign policy machinery,” he said. “That was true under Nehru and it remained true under later governments.”He pointed to the India-US civil nuclear agreement as an example. “When Manmohan Singh pushed through the nuclear deal, do most people even remember who the external affairs minister was?” he asked. Natwar Singh was removed from office during the negotiations, yet the deal itself continued uninterrupted. “Foreign policy is ultimately driven by the prime minister.”What has changed, according to him, is how foreign policy is presented. “Today there is a much more pronounced ideological display of foreign policy,” he said. “Even during Rajiv Gandhi’s time, when initiatives like the Festival of India were used to project the country abroad, the emphasis was different. Now, when the prime minister and external affairs minister travel overseas, there is a much stronger focus on ideas of ‘Bharat’ and civilisational identity. That ideological shift is unmistakable.”This focus continues against the backdrop of recent foreign policy setbacks, as documented before by <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2025/12/11/thinking-mans-nationalist-viral-sigma-chad-modi-megaphone-the-survival-of-s-jaishankar">Newslaundry</a></ins>.Newslaundry sent questionnaires to the PMO, the external affairs ministry and its XP Division. This report will be updated if a response is received.<div><blockquote>Today there is a much more pronounced ideological display of foreign policy.</blockquote>Kallol Bhattacharjee, The Hindu</div>‘Many stories beyond the ministers’The larger question is what foreign affairs reporting should be in the first place. Over the course of his career, Bhattacharjee said, some of his most memorable stories have not been about prime ministers or summit meetings but about the people who make <ins><a href="https://scroll.in/article/1069202/how-poet-harivansh-rai-bachchan-coined-the-term-videsh-mantralaya-which-impressed-pm-nehru?utm_source=chatgpt.com">diplomacy function</a></ins> behind the scenes: interpreters, clerks, drivers, <ins><a href="https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/national/uttar-pradesh-ats-arrests-moscow-indian-embassy-staffer-charged-with-spying-for-isi?utm_source=chatgpt.com">office staff</a></ins> and <ins><a href="https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/china/honeytrap-reason-for-raw-officials-repatriation/articleshow/3003019.cms">aides</a></ins> whose lives rarely enter official narratives.“There are so many stories in the ministry beyond the ministers and bureaucrats,” he said. “People see the person serving tea to the prime minister, but not the person who actually brings the tea. They see the summit, not the interpreter who makes the conversation possible.” He recalled the arrest of a former ministry staffer accused of spying. When the news broke, Bhattacharjee recognised him immediately. “He used to hold our microphones,” he said. “Someone in the ministry told me I was the only reporter who remembered him.” The fixation on access, foreign trips and summit diplomacy, he argued, often obscures the broader responsibility of the beat. “When the government opens its doors and allows a reporter inside, that is a privilege and a responsibility,” he said. Foreign affairs reporting, he believes, should also document the institutions, histories and people that sustain India’s engagement with the world. “The myths of comfort, champagne and caviar are inadequate.” Norway’s PM took questions. Modi left Indian envoy to face Norwegian mediaRahul Kanwal’s new NDTV for new IndiaIn the red and on their knees: Why corporate media tolerated its own ruin under Modi

2026/6/27

‘How gay are you, how politician are you?’: Anish Gawande on the choices facing queer leaders

Anish Gawande, NCP (SP)’s national spokesperson and one of India’s few openly gay politicians, sat down with Newslaundry’s Manisha Pande to talk about queerness, political strategy, and the challenges that come with holding both identities at once.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-06-25/uzd2ithv/AI-54.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutouts of Manisha Pande and Anish Gawande with the Pride flag in the background." referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>Anish Gawande, NCP (SP)’s national spokesperson and one of India’s few openly gay politicians, is candid about the tension at the heart of his public life. “The constant crisis that any gay politician faces is how gay are you and how politician are you – as if those are like very separate entities,” he says. As a gay politician, Gawande admits that he is always second-guessing himself. “Am I talking about gay rights too much? Am I not talking about other issues enough? It is a really weird thing to confront. What a messed up choice to make.” But the calculus is deliberate. Gawande believes that if he did not speak about the Ranveer Allahbadia controversy, Pahalgam, the trade war with the US, or other issues, his words against the Trans Act would not have reached as many people. “If I'm speaking to an echo chamber that is already sensitised to an issue, what is my value add in politics?”On why queer people don’t constitute a vote bank, he is matter-of-fact: “Queer people don't vote as a block – queer people are also Dalit, also Muslim, also Adivasi.” But he is equally clear that this is no reason for parties to disengage. The conversation gets more complicated when Gawande turns to the question of queerness and Hindutva. He refuses easy answers. “There is a valid argument to be made that proximity to Hindutva has a lot more to offer queerness today than a complete opposition to Hindutva” – but he doesn’t endorse it.His own long-term bet is on building coalitions. “When queer rights are clubbed with Dalit rights, with disability rights, with the fight against Islamophobia, with the housing crisis – that becomes an interest group that’s impossible to ignore.”On the Cockroach Janta Party and its spokesperson’s charge that queer rights are an ‘elite’ concern, he invokes the march in the 1990s that Namdeo Dhasal of the Dalit Panthers led with sex workers and trans sex workers from Kamathipura to then chief minister Sharad Pawar’s residence to demand protection from money lenders. “Queer issues are also class issues,” he says, and the perception of queerness as elite is not rooted in reality.Subscribe to watch the full interview. <iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ebe751be3f889048a3fe4c0/6a3d4760a3fa978237040d40" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/R2taAIi-Mo8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2taAIi-Mo8" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>Queer Indians forge alternative careers amid workplace discrimination

2026/6/25

Hafta 594: Trump, Modi and the G7 summit – what did India gain?

The podcast where we discuss the week’s news. <figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-16/egtq656l/HAFTA-NEW.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="New Hafta cartoon featuring cutouts of Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal, and Abhinandan Sekhri. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>This week on Hafta, Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande, Anand Vardhan, and Rinchen Norbu are joined by a very special guest – our former colleague Jayashree Arunachalam.The discussion begins with the geopolitical optics of the G7 Summit, India’s broader foreign policy, the US-Iran ceasefire, and the government’s response to the deaths of three Indian seafarers in US military strikes.Jayashree is sharply critical of India’s cautious diplomatic positioning, stating, “India came off looking like a bit of a joke. Especially with the loss of the three Indian sailors – and we can’t even say boo. We couldn’t name the incident that took place; we couldn’t name the sailors. I think this is the most cowardly India has been.”Manisha agrees, drawing a comparison to the 2012 diplomatic crisis triggered by the killing of two Indian fishermen by Italian marines off the coast of Kerala. “It was cowardly, especially when you compare it to Manmohan Singh’s reaction back then,” Manisha says. “Very categorically, he had said they violated rules, and they will suffer. We were still a mid-level power back then. I get that there’s a difference between Italy and the US, but there was still a very clear positioning that Indian lives matter.”Manisha also breaks down the target audience for this diplomatic choreography: “I think [Modi] has been told that the messaging he needs to take out of the trip is hugs, photo ops, and a message to his audience back home that he is the best India has got. And Trump just gave him that.”Evaluating the changing global order, Anand cuts through the theatre. “I think the G7 gained momentum in the phase of globalism and regained a new impetus after the 2008 global economic crisis. After that, it lost a bit of steam and became more of an international pageantry.” On India’s realistic place in global geopolitics, he adds, “India is a mid-power, and it will flex muscles only according to that.”The panel then shifts focus to West Bengal and the public parading of arrested TMC leaders. Abhinandan questions the growing acceptance of such practices, arguing that publicly humiliating accused persons undermines due process. “I found it really disturbing that these TMC leaders are being paraded, often in their undergarments. Under the law, you cannot handcuff or tie anyone unless they are a threat. Yet eggs are being thrown at them in a clearly engineered manner. What is even more disturbing is that sections of the media are actually applauding it.”Jayashree views it as a deeper structural issue: “This is not just a reflection of the governing party; it is a reflection of Indian society. We are still stuck in a medieval, feudal mindset where people want crude, immediate satisfaction and public punishment. All public parading is barbaric.”Anand points out a missed opportunity for political reform in the state. “The BJP had an opportunity to introduce a different political culture in West Bengal, one that moved away from vengeance and retribution. That has clearly not happened. The justification that these are ‘crime-scene reconstructions’ doesn't hold because those can happen without turning them into public spectacles in front of crowds.”All this and more.<iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ec3d9497cef7479d2ef4798/6a362de86f90df4cb75ac43a" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oFuzHw4lkN0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFuzHw4lkN0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>Hafta letters: <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/20/hafta-letters-need-more-experts-on-the-podcast-feedback-for-anand-cjp-predictions">Need more experts on the podcast, feedback for Anand, CJP predictions</a></ins>If you want to write to Hafta, <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/podcast-letters">click here</a></ins>. Click <ins><a href="http://newslaundry.com/sena">here</a></ins> to contribute to our Sena project. Check out the<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/store?routeName=NlStore"> Newslaundry store</a></ins> and flaunt your love for independent media. Download the<ins><a href="http://www.newslaundry.com/download-app"> Newslaundry app</a></ins>. Song:  <ins><a href="https://youtu.be/qM-TJg4cHHU?si=FCua-JUMN1ie9Dcz">Thiruda Thiruda</a></ins>Timecodes00:00:00 - Introductions and announcements00:05:56  - Headlines00:13:43-  G7 Summit & Iran US Ceasefire 00:38:41 - Public parading of accused: What Message Does It Send?01:09:12 – TMC turmoil & parting thoughts 01:13:32   - Letters 01:25:47 - RecommendationsReferences<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/podcast/lets-talk-about/lets-talk-about-indian-football">Replug : Let’s Talk About: Indian Football</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/book-club">NL -TNM Book Club registration </a></ins><ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/mmmk">NL -TNM Joint Subscription </a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/18/in-the-red-and-on-their-knees-why-corporate-media-tolerated-its-own-ruin-under-modi">In the red and on their knees: Why corporate media tolerated its own ruin under Modi</a></ins><ins><a href="https://indianexpress.com/article/political-pulse/bjp-ram-rajya-tmc-leaders-parade-punish-arrest-shame-10745137/">BJP says ‘Ram Rajya’ as TMC leaders paraded after arrest, court frowns</a></ins>RecommendationsAbhinandan<ins><a href="https://www.reporters-collective.in/trc/adani-group-sweeps-all-coal-power-tenders-from-bjp-states">Adani Group Sweeps All Coal Power Tenders from BJP States</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.nba.com/">NBA Finals</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt15437812/">Obsession</a></ins>Manisha<ins><a href="https://www.foreignaffairs.com/china/china-pulling-ladder-behind-it">China Is Pulling Up the Ladder Behind It: How Beijing's Export Strategy Will Keep Poor Countries Poor</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/">In the red and on their knees: Why corporate media tolerated its own ruin under Modi</a></ins>Jayashree Arunachalam <ins><a href="https://thebaffler.com/latest/warrior-pose-turfah">Warrior Pose</a></ins><ins><a href="https://mondoweiss.net/2023/09/jewish-settlers-stole-my-house-its-not-my-fault-theyre-jewish/">Jewish Settlers Stole My House. It’s Not My Fault They’re Jewish</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/the-banal-horror-of-jimmy-fallon">The Banal Horror of Jimmy Fallon</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11996.I_Who_Have_Never_Known_Men">I Who Have Never Known Men</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/235991934-the-infinite-sadness-of-small-appliances">The Infinite Sadness of Small Appliances</a></ins>Rinchen <ins><a href="https://marcellus.in/story/long-read-why-china-got-rich-and-india-didnt/">Why China Got Rich and India Didn’t: The Human Roots of the Sino-Indian Divergence</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=https://books.google.com/books/about/Empire_of_AI.html%3Fid%3Db-g80AEACAAJ">Empire of AI</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt15437812/">Obsession</a></ins>Anand Vardhan <ins><a href="https://books.google.com/books/about/Fundamentals_of_Physics.html?id=HybkAwAAQBAJ">Fundamentals of Physics</a></ins><ins><a href="https://books.google.com/books/about/The_End_of_Everything.html?id=2sHvDwAAQBAJ">The End of Everything: (Astrophysically Speaking)</a></ins>Check out <ins><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VCmV6yr5t1LHE77Xp5-cYhWrQSkhW3A8nix310MvRQU/edit?usp=sharing">previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters</a>. </ins>Produced by Amit Pandey with production assistance from Sourav. Research inter Manya Garg .Sound by Anil Kumar.Hafta 594[00:00:00] Manisha : This is a News Laundry podcast and you're listening to NL Hafta[00:00:11] Abhinandan: अंग्रेज अपना लगान और News Laundry अपना हफ्ता कभी नहीं भूलते। Welcome to a very special episode of हफ्ता because we are here with the OGs We have with us special guest, all the way from Chennai, ladies and gentlemen, in the blue [00:00:30] corner- [00:00:30] Jayashree : Oh [00:00:31] Abhinandan: my God ... from the White House lawn. Jayashree Arunachalam. Hello, [00:00:37] Jayashree : hello.[00:00:38] Manisha : She didn't say bye because she was gonna say hi soon. It's been over seven [00:00:41] Jayashree : months since I [00:00:42] Manisha : said bye. People were complaining that you didn't say bye. [00:00:45] Abhinandan: Actually, it, in my head it was all jumbled up because we discussed that it's her la- you know, last road she goes. And in my head that was part of the rolling.[00:00:53] Abhinandan: Then when we- But- In my head... You know, before we started rolling we were discussing this is your last Tough Tongue for- Yeah, so I [00:00:59] Jayashree : [00:01:00] was waiting for you to give me the cue, and you would say, "Yes, well this is her last episode," and then I would make a speech. Yeah. But then we got to the end and I was like, "Okay."[00:01:08] Abhinandan: So we'll do that now. The moment [00:01:09] Jayashree : has passed. [00:01:09] Abhinandan: Because in my head we were rolling all along. But, uh, anyway, you know what? She'll be back from time to time because we always need the voice of reason and radical leftist, uh, ideology. [00:01:23] Jayashree : What we do best, yes. [00:01:24] Abhinandan: So- [00:01:25] Jayashree : Okay, but also I still expect... I'm shocked that you have not given a [00:01:30] biography for me.[00:01:30] Jayashree : Like, where is my guest bio? [00:01:32] Abhinandan: Oh, damn. Jayashree- Thankfully I [00:01:35] Jayashree : wrote one for myself. [00:01:36] Abhinandan: Oh, please announce [00:01:38] Manisha : it. Efficient, as [00:01:38] Abhinandan: always. So then let me introduce the rest of the panel, and then you can do the operatic introduction of the guest like you always do. Absolutely, yeah. We have joining us Manisha Pandey. Hi.[00:01:46] Manisha : Hello. Anand [00:01:47] Abhinandan: Vardhan, whose mic I can't see. Okay, it's there, fine. Rinzin Norbu. I'm Abhinandan Sekhri, and joining us from Chennai, please- [00:01:57] Jayashree : It's me, yes ... [00:01:58] Abhinandan: what is your bio? [00:01:59] Jayashree : So yes, [00:02:00] Jayashree Arunachalam has been a journalist for over 17 years. She was previously chief community officer at News Laundry, where her colleagues affectionately called her King Midas since everything she touched turned to gold.[00:02:11] Jayashree : Welcome, Jayashree. [00:02:14] Abhinandan: Welcome, Jayashree. This is, this [00:02:15] Jayashree : is what happens when you don't write- Welcome ... a bio for me. I will go rogue. [00:02:20] Abhinandan: So, um, before we come to the headlines, a couple of announcements. We have two [00:02:30] very special pieces. One is, uh, Aakar Patel, and it's behind the paywall, if I understand correctly. [00:02:37] Manisha : Yes, yes.[00:02:38] Abhinandan: Uh, and if you wanna breach the paywall and read it, the QR code will be flashing from time to time next to my face or whoever's face is on your screens, and there'll be a link in the show notes. In the Red, On Their Knees: Why Corporate Media Tolerated Its Own Ruin Under Modi. It is a really fantastic take investigating the economics, the [00:03:00] financials of all these companies who are cheering Modi and doing ass-kissing of a level I have actually even the US media is not doing.[00:03:10] Abhinandan: Uh, and they've really gone a long way to please Trump. Even though their financial ruin is happening under that watch. So it's a very good, interesting analysis, plus some numbers to go with it. The second piece that, um, [00:03:30] I want to replug is let's talk about Indian football because the World Cup is on. And suddenly, at least my algorithm is throwing up all sorts of reels about football, and many of them are why is Indian football in such a bad state.[00:03:45] Abhinandan: Maybe it's just my algorithm. Maybe Anand's algorithm is throwing up how to crack the UPSC. Is your algorithm popping up with World Cup related videos? Uh- Sometimes, yeah ... sometimes. What does your algorithm pop up, Manisha? [00:04:00] [00:04:00] Manisha : Lots of things. But really like, uh, very dumb things. [00:04:05] Abhinandan: Okay. [00:04:06] Manisha : Like, very stupid memes mostly.[00:04:08] Abhinandan: And yours? [00:04:09] Rinchen : Uh, football. [00:04:10] Abhinandan: Football. [00:04:10] Rinchen : A lot of football content. Wow. A lot of incredible funny fan moments. [00:04:15] Abhinandan: Yeah. And also why India's not [00:04:17] Rinchen : doing well, so- And why India's not doing well, yeah ... [00:04:17] Abhinandan: we've tried to look at that speaking to players, coaches, managers who've been a part of Indian football through its administration, through coaching and as players.[00:04:29] Abhinandan: And the idea [00:04:30] is to come up with some sort of a roadmap that where, where we can go because there are countries I've never heard of like Co- Cor- [00:04:38] Rinchen : Capo- Cape Verde? [00:04:40] Abhinandan: Cape Verde. [00:04:40] Rinchen : Curacao. [00:04:41] Abhinandan: Huh. Yeah. All these countries I've never heard of, they're doing so well. [00:04:44] Manisha : Curacao I've heard [00:04:45] Abhinandan: of. Uh, so yeah. You can check that, let's talk about.[00:04:48] Abhinandan: And finally, the book club is happening. It is now live. Is there gonna be a QR code or a link? I'm sure there will. You can scan the QR code or click on the link. [00:05:00] The book club will be, uh, for subscribers, but it'll be a higher tiered subscription. The first book we will be discussing, dissecting is A Suitable Boy with fellow book lovers.[00:05:11] Abhinandan: To join the discussion, simply register through the link in the show notes. Once you've signed up, all the details will divert straight to your inbox. Come, read, reflect, exchange ideas with your tribe. It's gonna happen Sunday, July the 5th. I repeat, Sunday, July the 5th at 6:30 PM Indian Standard Time [00:05:30] at Depot 48, New Delhi.[00:05:32] Abhinandan: Let's discuss books, have a snack, have a drink, and we can't wait to see you there. Uh, you can also join us online if you're not in Delhi, and discuss A Suitable Boy Yes. With that, let's get to the headlines, which will be done by our special guest. First time a guest is doing the headlines. Yeah. [00:05:54] Jayashree : Yeah, this is how you're putting me to work.[00:05:56] Jayashree : I'm shocked. Beta, [00:05:57] Abhinandan: hum bhi kam [00:06:00] [00:06:00] Jayashree : nahi. The, the UBT leaders have issued strict whips and have alleged that a massive monetary lure of up to 50 crores has been used to engineer the split. Next, the Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology has restricted access to Telegram until June 22nd. This is a day after the NEET re-examination concludes.[00:06:17] Jayashree : It's also ordered the platform to disable its message editing feature until June 30th. The issue also reached the Delhi High Court, which as we record this, has upheld the center's order to temporarily block Telegram. Rebel [00:06:30] TMC MP Kakoli Ghosh announced that 20 party MPs will merge with the Tripura-based nationalist Citizens Party and support the BJP-led NDA in the Lok Sabha.[00:06:38] Jayashree : This announcement came after the MPs met the Lok Sabha speaker. Meanwhile, TMC leader Arup Biswas has written to HDFC Bank seeking a freeze on the party's account. Hm. Three injured Kuki[00:06:48] Jayashree : men were moved out of a hospital in Imphal under heavy security after protests over the admission turned violent. The men were injured in a firing incident and labeled militants by some IT and Naga groups who demanded their removal. [00:07:00] As the tensions escalated, security forces used tear gas to disperse protesters.[00:07:05] Jayashree : A three-member SIT constituted by the UP government has reached Ayodhya. It's going to begin its probe into alleged embezzlement of the Ram Temple's donation funds. This is after a request from the Shri Ram Se- Shetra Trust. On Thursday, the SIT had questioned a member of the trust over the accounting of donated money and the appointment of staff involved in the process.[00:07:26] Abhinandan: Uh, you can read a couple of stories about this that NewsBred [00:07:30] had done almost four years ago, Manisha. The fir- we broke that story of the Ram Temple land [00:07:37] Jayashree : around- Yeah, land acquisition [00:07:38] Abhinandan: The land acquisition ... land acquisition, and then we had done a follow-up story again of this lovely gravy train that, uh, everyone is riding, uh, while getting votes in the name of Shri Ram, making a lot of money also.[00:07:52] Abhinandan: So- In that entire, uh, narrative of the [00:08:00] pious making sure that their piety is handsomely rewarded , uh, you can read those reports. Yeah. And then from there on you can follow the story where it goes. [00:08:08] Manisha : And Basant is right now in Ayodhya. All right. So we should hope to get some good reports from there on this whole issue.[00:08:15] Jayashree : Right. So NCERT has said it will restore the original photograph of the iconic Dancing Girl sculpture in its new class nine arts textbook. This is after there was wide criticism that the updated version had covered the sculpture's bare torso. [00:08:28] Song : Yeah. [00:08:28] Manisha : Shaded it. [00:08:30] Like we shaded, um, in Oppenheimer, there's a scene where they put a black dress.[00:08:36] Manisha : There's a nude scene where they put a black dress on the- You guys don't know this? [00:08:41] Abhinandan: Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah. And in, in Padmaavat they covered, uh, Deepika's midriff. Yeah. [00:08:45] Manisha : But that black dress was the most weird thing because it's... You could tell that it's like a cardboard cutout or something just placed on [00:08:51] Jayashree : her.[00:08:51] Jayashree : Superb Five Indian Air Force personnel were killed after an AN-32 transport aircraft crashed while landing at an air base in Assam. The [00:09:00] aircraft was on a routine sortie when it went down. The Air Force has also now launched a court of inquiry to determine the cause of the crash. In West Bengal, several arrested TMC leaders have been publicly paraded by the police with videos of handcuffed accused being marched through their localities going viral.[00:09:15] Jayashree : The police have defended these actions as routine crime scene reconstructions, but the matter has reached the Calcutta High Court, which has sharply rebuked the administration, seeking a report on the circumstances and warning against deliberate public humiliation. [00:09:27] Abhinandan: Yeah, we'll discuss this in some detail and [00:09:30] where does this spiral eventually go because it seems some journalists also...[00:09:34] Abhinandan: I mean, I won't call journalists, um, some of these nutter buffoons who had news jobs earlier and now are just trolls online, um, have kind of applauded this, saying that this is wonderful. I'm like, imagine the... And one of those guys was an editor- [00:09:49] Jayashree : Mm ... [00:09:50] Abhinandan: of a, of a portal. Anyway. Mm. [00:09:53] Jayashree : Karnataka's Home Minister Priyanka Kharge has written an open letter to the RSS, uh, asking the organization to publicly disclose [00:10:00] its legal status, registration details, funding sources, and tax records.[00:10:05] Jayashree : In response, a BJP MP has criticized Kharge and questioned why he was focusing on the RSS instead of his duties. I think he also said, "Why should a Dalit- [00:10:13] Rinchen : Yeah ... [00:10:14] Jayashree : worry about the RSS?" I mean, he himself is a Dalit BJP MP, but- [00:10:18] Rinchen : Mm. [00:10:19] Jayashree : Oh, the most exciting news of the week, I presume, is that Narendra Modi met Donald Trump on the sidelines of the G7 in France, which recently concluded with leaders backing the newly brokered US-Iran peace [00:10:30] framework.[00:10:30] Jayashree : And during this much talked about interaction, Trump was asked about the families of the three Indian sailors killed in recent US military strikes. He described seafaring as a rough profession and said this has been happening throughout time. He also said, "We love all of those people." During the meeting, Modi stressed that the safety and security of Indian seafarers remained a top priority for India.[00:10:52] Abhinandan: In that same interaction, Trump went on this rant against trans people, and Modi just sat there [00:11:00] grinning as if a joke is being cracked. [00:11:01] Trump : No men playing in women's sports, and we want no transgender mutilation of our children. None. Those are five things that a 99% To, I mean, that's all we want [00:11:14] Abhinandan: He's such a buffoon, man.[00:11:16] Abhinandan: I cannot believe [00:11:18] Jayashree : Didn't Trump also say he's the most beautiful looking man- [00:11:21] Abhinandan: Yeah ... in any parliament? But I think Trump, [00:11:22] Jayashree : no, [00:11:23] Abhinandan: I think Trump, uh, Trump's has... I mean, he's very clever. Obviously, his team briefs him about- Hmm ... what [00:11:30] would really- [00:11:31] Manisha : Work [00:11:32] Abhinandan: with Modi ... work with who. Modi's vanity is the one thing that just like Trump, you reward that.[00:11:37] Abhinandan: He feels thrilled, and later you can say what the hell you want on the flight. He won't care. Say, "Oh, you're so-" It's like [00:11:42] Manisha : giving a lollipop because you know that works for him and the press back home. [00:11:45] Abhinandan: Yeah, exactly. [00:11:46] Manisha : I think they also know this by now. Yeah That he just needs these photo ops and these headlines for the press back home.[00:11:50] Abhinandan: Yeah, that's all he needs, yeah. [00:11:52] Jayashree : But- He did very correctly refer to Modi, though, as a killer. A killer, yeah. That is that. [00:11:58] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:11:58] Jayashree : And yes, Donald [00:12:00] Trump and Iranian President Masoud Pezeshkian virtually signed a fo- signed a 14-point MOU on Wednesday to end hostilities, reopen the Strait of Hormuz, and launch talks on sanctions and Iran's nuclear program.[00:12:11] Jayashree : The deal starts a 60-day negotiating clock. Uh, and the MOU, according to news reports, appea- appears to offer Iran several upfront benefits while extracting little in return for the US. [00:12:23] Abhinandan: A- and in a rare break with Trump, many of the conservatives and fellow Republicans have really lashed out at this- Oh[00:12:29] Abhinandan: MOU. [00:12:30] [00:12:31] Rinchen : The Zionists are losing their mind. [00:12:33] Abhinandan: So, uh, it is, like, clearly one thing which has made them question their leader who they were backing on everything, and Trump's way of getting back at reaching across the aisle and trying to convince them that it's an okay deal is by posting all the people who are opposing this, and I think he's also referred to them, I said, "They're either stupid or they don't know what to do, or they're buffoon..."[00:12:59] Abhinandan: [00:13:00] I mean, that, he, that's his, that's his post- Fair ... for those people. Right. Those are the headlines. Thank you so much, Jayashree. Uh, before we start, just wanna plug our partner organization News Minute's weekly podcast called South Central. [00:13:17] Jayashree : Yes. [00:13:17] Abhinandan: And, uh, this week they will be discussing the RSS, its legal status, and Hindutva populism growing influence on culture and politics [00:13:30] Right.[00:13:30] Abhinandan: With that, let me start with you, Jayashree, since you've joined us as a guest. Mm-hmm. This G7 meet, uh, what you've read about it, what were, in your view, the expected or desired outcomes, and what has really occurred from the Indian perspective and generally also for the world because this whole, whole... was in fact when Trump signed it, he was sitting at dinner, right?[00:13:53] Abhinandan: Uh- Yeah ... I don't know whether he was- [00:13:54] Rinchen : At Versailles. [00:13:55] Abhinandan: Uh, yeah, he was sit at the Treaty of Versailles, the irony of it. [00:13:58] Rinchen : Yeah. With [00:13:58] Abhinandan: Macron. While he signed that- [00:14:00] Yeah ... everyone, like, applauded after that- Yeah ... and he felt happy about himself. [00:14:02] Rinchen : Two rounds of applause. Macron led two rounds of applause. Oh, yeah. Bravo, bravo.[00:14:06] Rinchen : Good job. [00:14:09] Promo : Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Great job. Bravo.[00:14:16] Abhinandan: Right. Yeah, even they know how to [00:14:19] Manisha : suck up to Trump. Dude, what the hell, yeah? What is this world? [00:14:20] Abhinandan: So yeah, what was the desired outcome and what have we achieved? [00:14:23] Jayashree : See, I mean, G7, I have always said that these are relics that are incredibly irre- [00:14:30] irrelevant. I mean, it's nothing more than a photo op for a bunch of world leaders who claim to be of the most powerful economies of the world, get together and claim that they are controlling what we are going to do in future.[00:14:41] Jayashree : But I mean, I think the entirety for me is that India came off Looking like a bit of a joke, I think, to anyone seriously studying this. I think especially with the loss of the three Indian sailors and we can't even say boo. I mean, we can't name the incidents that take place. We couldn't name the sailors.[00:14:57] Jayashree : We couldn't-- I mean, you have to be insanely [00:15:00] deluded to not reach the conclusion that I think this is the most cowardly that India has been. And I think especially if you look at the early days of the Republic when India was far weaker relative to the rest of the world, arguably. We were dirt poor, we were remnants of a colonial army, we were all those things, but we were never cowardly.[00:15:17] Jayashree : I mean, we had some sort of... I know moral principle is a very overused sort of phrase and doesn't actually carry a lot of water on a day-to-day sort of basis, but we had-- We may have lost a war to China, [00:15:30] but we were never cowardly. We had something. I think now we've completely lost it and we're the fourth or fifth or sixth or seventh or whatever largest economy in the world.[00:15:38] Jayashree : We have such and such military capabilities. We have space power. But none of that really seems to matter to me anymore. And I think, like you said, I mean, Trump knows how to play Modi. Modi has no sense of foreign policy, no sense of interactions. I don't even think-- Any- everyone says like, "Oh my God, what a shame it is for India that Pakistan only brokered the entire US-Iran deal."[00:15:58] Jayashree : But I don't even know if that is as important as the [00:16:00] fact that India is just becomingly, is become so irrelevant. So- [00:16:04] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:16:05] Jayashree : Yeah. [00:16:06] Abhinandan: What do you make of it, Anand, of what you saw, what the outcomes were? And are we still gonna see some outcomes because it just concluded? Will the wake of it lead to some other negotiations, some concessions?[00:16:19] Abhinandan: Also, uh, important to mention that while Modi was sitting there being told he's beautiful, uh, US has renamed the [00:16:30] command here from the Indo-US command to just the US command. They're saying they're going back to the original legacy name. But of course, the optics matter that now it is not- Yeah ... an Indo-US command.[00:16:41] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:16:41] Anand: I think it, uh, gained momentum in a, uh, means, uh, phase of roaring '90s when globalism was the, uh, currency of world politics, and it, uh, also regained, uh, a new impetus after the 2008, uh, global [00:17:00] economic crisis when major, um, s- liberal economies sat together to find a way out. [00:17:07] Rinchen : Mm-hmm. [00:17:08] Anand: After that, it has lost a bit of esteem and has, uh, as a, say, brainstorming session, has more been a sort of, uh, international peasantry.[00:17:19] Anand: So, uh- Uh, India's, uh, India as, um, from an observer is st- status to a[00:17:29] Anand: kind of participant. [00:17:30] Earlier it was G8, they have dropped out Russia because of different regions, uh, Crimea and Ukraine. So, uh, I think India's, uh, approach now as a mid-level power So to exert power at the high table of diplomacy, you need actual, say, world power status. India is in the process, but [00:18:00] far, far away from that.[00:18:01] Anand: It's a mid power, and it will flex muscles only according to that. Communication, uh, I think, uh, the way, uh, she was talking about the formative years of history of, uh, like post-independent, uh, foreign policy. We had our, say, tightrope balance when it, uh, came to big powers, USSR or i-in '56, uh, [00:18:30] we didn't oppose USSR's, uh, sending army to Hungary.[00:18:36] Anand: In Bay of Pigs we didn't oppose in 1962. So we had our, uh, ways of dealing with, uh, big powers in a pragmatic way. Could India be more forceful? Yes. A, a direct communication could have been done. We don't know whether it has been done in back channel ways. There has been US, uh, [00:19:00] uh, embassy officials have been called.[00:19:02] Anand: They, uh- Yeah, summoned twice ... yes. So diplomatic, through diplomatic channels where actual diplomacy happens and not in front of camera pageantry. They-- There has been some communication, but to what extent? Uh, uh, and also, uh, the bottom line for me is that you can only project power to the extent that you are powerful.[00:19:27] Anand: Means India is a mid power, so [00:19:30] India is not on the top table, high table. So I think there are limitations of it. You have to live with those limitations. [00:19:37] Abhinandan: Right. Just one thing that I thought was undercovered in India, and I think that has an implication for all of us, is, uh, the concessions that Zelensky got- [00:19:47] Rinchen : Hmm[00:19:48] Abhinandan: of a new air defense. And that is a huge change from, what was it a year ago, two years ago, where Trump and his sidekicks went at Zelensky at the [00:19:59] Rinchen : White House. Well, Vance was like, "You [00:20:00] should be grateful to us." [00:20:00] Abhinandan: Yeah. A year and a half, right? Yeah. 16, 18 months. [00:20:03] Rinchen : Yeah. [00:20:03] Abhinandan: And from that to the body language of how Zelensky was spoken to there, how the conversations happened and the concessions he got, uh, I think that was one thing that I did not see anyone cover in Indian media.[00:20:17] Abhinandan: But, uh, Manisha, the-- what do you make of what we saw? I mean, I'm sure you have enough material for nuisance and tippany. [00:20:25] Manisha : So I think on the seafarer issue, completely agree with Jayshree. It was cowardly, and especially when you [00:20:30] compare it to Manmohan Singh's reaction to when the Italians had killed two of our seafarers, fishermen.[00:20:35] Jayashree : Hmm. [00:20:36] Manisha : Very categorically he had said back then that they violated rules and they will suffer. And I mean, we were still a mid-level power back then I get that Italy and US there's a difference, but still there was a very clear kind of positioning irrespective of what may follow that Indian lives matter.[00:20:53] Manisha : And here it's very wrong for the media to say that he raised the seafare issue because he didn't raise any issue. Yeah. He generally said that there should [00:21:00] be safety. So there should be safe- it's like there should be world peace. Yes, there should be, but you have not spoken about the three killings that have happened.[00:21:07] Manisha : Mm. So I think- [00:21:09] Jayashree : No, he said the safety thing, but couched it immediately in language of, "And I know, Mr. President, you are doing such tremendous work." Mm. So... [00:21:15] Manisha : Secondly, I think very tough times for India. If you look at Trump's meeting with, in China- [00:21:21] Abhinandan: Mm ... [00:21:22] Manisha : he definitely takes them very seriously, wants to warm up to them.[00:21:25] Manisha : The whole G2 framing that he did, that China and US will be at the center of the new world order. [00:21:30] With [00:21:30] Abhinandan: Modi sitting there. [00:21:31] Manisha : And, uh, China's proximity to Pakistan, we know with Operation Sindhu. So I don't know what we're doing frankly at this point, and I have sympathies because, yes, Trump is a bit of a maverick, you know, or bol- Maverick, maverick.[00:21:45] Manisha : Polite [00:21:45] Abhinandan: word you're using. [00:21:47] Manisha : I mean, you don't know where he's going. So it is a... He does tend to stun you. But- I don't, I really don't see what India's plan is. And the second thing that he said about when they asked him about, uh, supporting India [00:22:00] vers- versus Pakistan, I think you're pretty right that his team has been briefed to just say something nice about Modi, and that's all we need to do with India.[00:22:07] Manisha : Hmm. Because he says that, you know, they have a friend in us, and as long as he's the leader, we'll support India if, you know, they are attacked. But if he's gone, we don't know. Hmm. Like, which leader talks like that? At that level, you're talking nation to nation, no? [00:22:19] Jayashree : Hmm. [00:22:20] Manisha : But I think he's been told that- [00:22:21] Jayashree : Modi's [00:22:22] Manisha : not gonna be there[00:22:22] Manisha : the messaging you need to give back home, he needs... What he needs to take out of this trip is hugs, photo ops, and a message to his audience that he's the best [00:22:30] India's got. [00:22:30] Jayashree : Yeah. [00:22:30] Manisha : And Trump just gave him that on a platter. [00:22:32] Jayashree : Hmm. [00:22:32] Manisha : That line, I think any head of state should... I don't think the Chinese would be okay with Xi, whatever he is, however much control he wants to exert over China, I don't think any world leader would say that, "If you are there, it's fine.[00:22:45] Manisha : Otherwise, once you're gone, we'll-" 10 years, okay ... "we don't care about China." How do you talk like that at that level, and what is our image in the world where even a Trump thinks it's okay to, to say that and that's enough? [00:22:57] Rinchen : Hmm. Yeah, on the G7, I [00:23:00] mean, and India's participation in the G7, I mean, India almost feels like a hanger-on, like amongst the larger world powers there.[00:23:07] Rinchen : I mean, no stake in, no roles in any, in the Iran conflict. I mean, so, so that's one point I'd like to make, that you just, you just don't feel relevant anymore. And number two, to the point of, you know, how do you react to the killing of three of your s- of your seafarers? And I think a good counterexample of how you [00:23:30] should react, and I'm, I'm not the biggest fan of China, I'm not a fan of the CCP, but I will say this.[00:23:35] Rinchen : Uh, in 1999, uh, when, uh, NATO had bombed the, uh, Chinese embassy in Belgrade, uh, during the Kosovo conflict... Um, now, any time a foreign nation kills your citizens, there are three things you do, right? A, you condemn it. Uh, s- two, you seek an apology, and three, you [00:24:00] at, at some level seek some reparations, some compensations.[00:24:04] Rinchen : And China got all three from the Americans in 1999, and it was not the sort of world power- Or it is today ... or global power it is today. Mm. And mind you, at the time, they were negotiating their entrance into the World Trade Organization. Two years later it happened in 19- and in the midst of the final stages of that.[00:24:22] Rinchen : So they were also in a delicate situation, but they still managed to get concessions. Of course, Donald Trump is not, and Bill Clinton is [00:24:30] not Donald Trump. Bill Clinton was- Yeah ... US president then. [00:24:31] Promo : Granted. [00:24:32] Rinchen : Of course, all of that is there, but you have to... And I think there's a piece I read in the South China Morning Post, uh, where they quoted Brahma Chellani, the, uh, foreign policy expert.[00:24:43] Rinchen : Mm. And, uh, he says, and this is, I'd, I'd like to read out the quote because I think it's very sort of relevant to this. These episodes, he's comparing the Belgrade episode and the, what happened with the seafarers. These episodes differed in circumstance and scale, but they shared a common lesson. [00:25:00] Nations earn respect not merely through economic or military power, but through leadership, resolve, and a willingness to defend their interest.[00:25:06] Rinchen : Respect is earned, not bestowed. So- And Brahma [00:25:11] Manisha : Chellani is not- Yeah, and he's not a- Yeah ... he is, he's pretty much, you know- [00:25:13] Abhinandan: Yeah. [00:25:14] Manisha : So- He's the, he's someone the government should certainly listen to. 100%. He's not like a enemy- And [00:25:17] Abhinandan: often he's extremely com- complimentary to this government- Yeah, yeah ... in my view, unnecessarily so very often, but yeah.[00:25:23] Rinchen : Yeah, so that, those are the two [00:25:24] Manisha : sentences. Even if no one's expecting you to condemn, you should have brought it up at least. Exactly. So I- No one's saying like, go with the sword [00:25:30] and kill him. And, no, and you, [00:25:31] Rinchen : you lodge protest, that's, uh- [00:25:32] Abhinandan: So I think if I could just, uh, put my bit in, the, I think if we see this from the point of view of what does the BJP want out of it?[00:25:41] Abhinandan: Or I will not even say BJP, Modi, Shah, and I think this needs to be seen in the context of what do they want, the more philosophical, out of life? I think two or three things. They really don't give a shit about India as an economic superpower. Like, one of the things that, you know, like what you said, that India is a [00:26:00] hanger-on.[00:26:00] Abhinandan: Yes, because we do not have anything to offer But we could. [00:26:04] Rinchen : Yeah. [00:26:04] Abhinandan: And that is a market. Investment opportunity, a market that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. We were just talking about this upstairs- Yeah ... before we started. Yeah. Now, let me start off this entire, you know, dots to connect from the reporters' collective story.[00:26:20] Abhinandan: Adani Group sweeps all coal power tenders from BJP states set to earn 13 point... Any tender that happens, whether it's a coal block, whether it is a airport, Adani gets. [00:26:30] Now, they are not interested... Like, India right now has the capacity, it has the headroom, which European countries don't, America doesn't, to create a market, investment opportunities, consumers, customers.[00:26:43] Rinchen : Mm. [00:26:44] Abhinandan: It is not interested because in the other stuff that we're gonna discuss, all the, you know, buy- buying and selling of MPs, we know the numbers that are being thrown around, and let's not pretend it's not happening for financial incentive. Where the fuck is this money [00:27:00] coming from? [00:27:00] Rinchen : Yeah. [00:27:00] Abhinandan: Right? BJP wants a war chest that dwarfs anybody's war chest.[00:27:05] Abhinandan: Like, they can raise the ri- price of a corporator, which would be less than a crore 10 years from now, to 20 times that, that they can give that much to get a corporator to switch side, forget what they can give an MP, right? So they need that money. So they don't give a shit about creating their environment.[00:27:20] Abhinandan: If India need to be taken seriously, if they say, "Look, we have this market. You have all these invest- people who are looking to where to invest," because- [00:27:28] Rinchen : Mm ... [00:27:29] Abhinandan: again, the [00:27:30] Fed has not increased interest rates in America- Yeah ... abi with the new dude who's coming in. I- India could get that, so they don't want that.[00:27:37] Abhinandan: They could have got that. He wants people back home to say, "Look, look. Look at his aura." The buffoons who are presenting. [00:27:44] Rinchen : Mm. [00:27:45] Abhinandan: And no matter how much you prep someone who is a little clueless about world politic, he will go there and look stupid. So we may have very good bureaucrats who will prep him, but when he gets out there, you've got to think on your feet.[00:27:59] Abhinandan: [00:28:00] Modi can think on his feet like Patanjali's Ramdev. You put him in front of a crowd, he can rile them up, but he cannot deal with people who are like people like G. [00:28:10] Rinchen : Mm. [00:28:10] Abhinandan: He won't know what to say. Which is why all he can do is come back with some photo ops. See? I look stupid, but we will not show you that.[00:28:20] Abhinandan: We will show you where I look daunting. We will get all the money. Adani will get... That- [00:28:24] Manisha : And Trump is saying that India is safe as long as I'm the leader. Mm. [00:28:27] Abhinandan: So, so- Smooth [00:28:28] Manisha : guy ... [00:28:28] Abhinandan: so what I'm saying is that's not [00:28:30] even, in my view, if you connect all these dots, that's not in their interest. They don't want that.[00:28:36] Abhinandan: And it is consistent with their plan. Yeah, Anand, you were saying. [00:28:39] Anand: No, what I was saying that the, when there is a camera moment and two leaders are speaking, either you have a moment like Zelensky-Trump confrontation or- Mm ... kind of, or you let it pass. So, if a world leader said something, say, outrageous, [00:29:00] you, you, it is not that, uh, someone would object immediately.[00:29:05] Rinchen : Right. [00:29:05] Anand: It will be passed. Okay. Let, let it be interpreted in any ways. So also, whether we raised it or not, we don't know because, uh, uh, as I said, the foreign secretaries, ambassadors, there is where the real diplomacy happens. And 10 years later you will find in a book that we raised it there and, and there, and it, it was [00:29:30] said, it was objected this and that.[00:29:32] Anand: Uh, but there is, there are elements of continuity in foreign... Like Vikram Misri, where someone asked him, the foreign secretary, someone asked him that Mr. Modi has brought, uh, i- India on the world stage, so he, uh, didn't, uh, he disagreed with it in a different way. He said, "But India was on world stage for 5,000 to 7,000 years."[00:29:56] Promo : Mm. [00:29:57] Anand: So, uh, he put out [00:30:00] Mr. Modi out of the equation. So, uh, uh, I mean, uh, it is not in, in, uh, say, photo ops sessions or in camera discussions or those that the only diplomacy is happening. That is one. [00:30:17] Abhinandan: Jayashree, on this, do you want to- [00:30:20] Jayashree : No, I don't disagree. I, I mean, I, I don't agree with Anand at all. I think that in an ideal world that yes, there would be all these back channel discussions that we have no idea about.[00:30:28] Jayashree : There would be diplomats who are [00:30:30] working tirelessly to get this done. But also I think there is an overarching kind of control that the Modi government has over every department. No one is working towards the betterment in any sort of form. They try to control all of it. And there is... I don't think foreign policy exists- In the form that it used to for this government at all.[00:30:48] Jayashree : And like you said, I don't think they know even what they want. See, like, even if you talk about domestic production, we keep trying to pretend that it's this modern myth that India is the next superpower, right? That India will be what China is now. It's one of those [00:31:00] comforting stories that we tell ourselves, and they bank it on the fact that, you know, in 10 years from now or whatever, we will have X number of people who are under the age of whatever, and therefore that youth population will drive us towards...[00:31:12] Jayashree : But sheer number does not automatically translate into anything. A large young population is of use to you only if it is educated, it is skilled, it is productively employed, otherwise it's just numbers. And I mean, there are enough and more so pieces that have [00:31:30] been done on the kind of investment and planning that China has been doing for decades, even in things like solar power and manufacturing and industry.[00:31:37] Manisha : Education, research ... [00:31:38] Jayashree : education. And to say that, well, we are also going to get there only because we have strength of number of population is absurd. And I haven't seen anything in the last 12 years to point me in the direction to feel that the Modi government is making any attempt to take us to those levels that we are supposed to reach, and I see the same thing in our foreign [00:32:00] policy.[00:32:00] Jayashree : So, [00:32:01] Manisha : yeah. Also, this Viksit Bharat thing that they've... Now it's 2047. I mean, it just makes no sense, yeah. [00:32:07] Song : Yeah. [00:32:07] Jayashree : Yeah. And also, I mean, I think- There is no... I f- I don't think there is an independent and fully functional foreign ministry now in the way that we see. It's all very ornamental, it all seems very insignificant.[00:32:23] Jayashree : It is all about the headlines of the Melody Chocolates. And not to say that there isn't a tireless team [00:32:30] within the ministry that is also trying to work, but if in 10 years we suddenly discover there were outcomes, I'd be incredibly surprised, 'cause if there were any outcome, this is the kind of government that would tell us straight off the bat.[00:32:41] Jayashree : Yeah. But there aren't any, so- [00:32:42] Rinchen : No, but just to, I mean, just to push back a little bit, um, which is that foreign policy in India, I mean, and it's not just the Modi government, it's always been determined by the PMO. Of course. The external affairs ministers, they definitely play a role, but for example, in the Indo-US nuclear deal, it was [00:33:00] Manmohan Singh.[00:33:00] Rinchen : You, you didn't see Natwar Singh at all- Mm ... even though he was external affairs minister at the time. So foreign policy has been primarily driven by the Prime Minister's office. But, so that is why all that you're seeing right now, they own it. All the goof-ups, all the sort of current situ- the situation we find ourself in diplomatically, geopolitically, is on the Prime Minister's office.[00:33:22] Abhinandan: And while, uh, there are a lot of explainers on the, not the deal, but the MOU that the US has signed. By the way, even [00:33:30] as we're recording this, Israel has just bom- continuous bombing of Lebanon- Mm ... and 16 more people have died. Um, so I really don't know what Israel's plan is. And best case scenario, I think for the world would be a complete rupture between US and Israel.[00:33:44] Abhinandan: Uh, I think that may show Bibi his place and make him weaker domestically, 'cause right now I think he's gone rogue. He's a threat to the world. Uh, but on... other than the, you know, Ranade made explainers, you think the 60-day... [00:34:00] Also, I was listening to, uh, Govind Raj's podcast this morning. The, the assumption was even after the Straits of Hormuz opens, to get back to- the countries at le- at least this part of Asia, uh, our oil, uh, what do you call it?[00:34:18] Abhinandan: What you store, the- [00:34:20] Rinchen : Reserves ... [00:34:21] Abhinandan: the reserves will take a f- s- several months, could even take a year. That may happen before time because there's some 23 tankers that are already waiting, filled [00:34:30] up. [00:34:30] Rinchen : Mm-hmm. [00:34:30] Abhinandan: So they have immediately started moving. So apparently all of us will get our reserves topped up a little sooner than had been expected.[00:34:39] Abhinandan: But other than, you know, this, anything that is, uh, uh, unexpected outcome that has happened or, or is, as the US media is trashing Trump, Iran has come out better than what they were f- after, uh, uh, Obama's deal. I [00:34:55] Anand: think big powers when they enter this kind of war, though [00:35:00] US says that it has never waged a war after[00:35:02] Anand: I mean, it has never entered a war after Second World War. Everything is an operation. [00:35:07] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:35:08] Anand: So, uh, uh, uh, they want, uh- Cartesian deal, a Cartesian kind of peace is a kind of peace where, which is an imposed peace where you-- it's a kind of a scorched earth policy. You leave nothing to the defeated to rebuild, and you [00:35:30] impose peace.[00:35:30] Anand: That has not happened i-in Iran, and the Republican view ha- is that it should have been a Cartesian kind of peace if you had gone for it. Uh, but it, it has been very difficult for even big powers to impose that kind of peace from the second half of 20th century. It failed in Afghanistan. It, they'd rebuilt and they are in new forms.[00:35:58] Anand: [00:36:00] E-e-even you can say Iraq also they failed. Mm. So because I think the warfare and the limitation of big powers is that they, they go-- cannot go full throttle because they are nuclear powers. They can destroy them, but, uh, also the curse of geography. Uh, uh, Ir-Iran immensely leveraged the geographical advantage.[00:36:23] Anand: Mm. And that was, uh, one thing. [00:36:26] Rinchen : Yeah. Mm. [00:36:26] Anand: Uh, so, uh, to your point, what [00:36:30] is, uh, mm, hmm, the difficulty in immediate, uh, return to smooth while economics is that, uh, 500 ships are still stranded there, and it is mined. It is mined to-- So to rem-remove mines, it will take lot of time, still a lot of time. [00:36:52] Song : Mm. [00:36:53] Anand: And those 500 ships are, uh, mm, say, storing substantial [00:37:00] amount of oil.[00:37:00] Anand: The expectation is that when it comes back to the economies world over, uh, the rebound would be swift. But that, that time period is there to, uh, be watched. And second is, uh- When the oil comes, then also some observers think that it would not be a very swift correction because the panic economies will try to somehow first, uh- [00:37:29] Abhinandan: [00:37:30] Double their [00:37:30] Anand: reserves [00:37:31] Abhinandan: or [00:37:31] Anand: something[00:37:32] Anand: reserves bit up. Yeah Because you never know which [00:37:32] Abhinandan: way Trump may go. [00:37:32] Song : Mm. [00:37:33] Anand: And also shipping companies have this now new insurance handle because of the Strait of Hormuz chaos. Uh, they will, uh, now charge a lot of premium for, for oil companies because they know this uncertainty. And, uh, although the, uh, Israel has not committed, uh, on Lebanon and this uncertain- And also it has left Iran very [00:38:00] powerful- [00:38:00] Rinchen : Yeah[00:38:01] Anand: in West Asia. And its, uh, US, uh, US's, uh, Arab, say, partners are not very easy about it. Mm. So we are not a, it's a, a kind of peace, but we are not, uh, looking towards a kind of West, West Asia would, which would be established in the conventional sense of the term. [00:38:21] Abhinandan: Now I just wanna discuss something that, you know, I found really disturbing, uh, of this TMC leaders being paraded [00:38:30] often in their undergarments.[00:38:32] Abhinandan: Uh, while in law you cannot handcuff or tie anyone unless that person is a threat. That is the law. Even when they're taken to court, a person cannot be handcuffed. I don't know if you knew this. While in America even a Kenneth Lay was taken in handcuffs. [00:38:46] Song : Yeah. [00:38:48] Abhinandan: So this is an outlier. It is cl- And eggs are being thrown at them, clearly engineered.[00:38:53] Abhinandan: Um- [00:38:55] Manisha : This one incident is of a strongman related to TMC whose head was shaved [00:39:00] and he was paraded across- [00:39:01] Abhinandan: But even, there have been four parading ... a [00:39:03] Manisha : passing. Yeah. [00:39:04] Abhinandan: Their former MP, I forget his name, who had eggs thrown at him. Yeah. [00:39:08] Rinchen : Right. Totally. [00:39:08] Abhinandan: Uh, and this is being either glossed over by some media and actually being applauded.[00:39:15] Abhinandan: So I just wanna start from the panel on a, you know, larger context of Where do you think this goes? What is, what is the spiral this follows? Like, are we to assume that if there is, [00:39:30] inevitably there will be a change in government, then the members of Parliament, ministers in this cabinet should be paraded and eggs thrown at them?[00:39:40] Abhinandan: Uh, is this typically a reflection of the mindset, which I believe is the mindset of the ruling establishment, no matter how many 14 lakh suits Mr. Modi may wear, he still has the mindset of the Bajrang Dal types.[00:39:57] Abhinandan: Um, and if that is [00:40:00] what we are applauding, where do you think this goes? And if this were to happen tomorrow and we reverse it, what would your stand be, Jayashree? Would you have the conviction to condemn it and stand up for, let's say, one of these sitting cabinet ministers is paraded in his kachhas and, and eggs are thrown?[00:40:17] Rinchen : Yeah. [00:40:18] Abhinandan: Would you say, "Oh my God, I'm outraged," how? Or would you secretly feel thrilled? Be honest. [00:40:22] Jayashree : No, because- ... this is not, because this is not a reflection of the governing party at all. I think this is a [00:40:30] reflection of Indian society. Society, yeah. Look, like you said, in the West there are these perp walks, there are prog marches.[00:40:35] Jayashree : You parade them handcuffed, whatever. They might be suspects, they might be convicts, whatever it is. But in India, I mean, it is... There in Rajasthan, I remember a few years ago there were a parade of incidents where, um, people who were accused of various crimes, their heads were shaved, they were dressed in women's clothing.[00:40:52] Jayashree : They were forced to wear salwar kameez or nighties. They put signs around their necks and forced them to fold their hands and apologize and chant apologies and, [00:41:00] I mean, this is like ritualistic humiliation. They, there was another horrible thing where I think there were two men who were accused of murder, and they were injured while being captured, and we can only assume that they were therefore beaten up by the cops before they were captured, so their legs were broken, but they were still forced to drag themselves on the ground with their legs in casts as part of this, you know, humiliation apology tour that you're expected to go on.[00:41:22] Jayashree : So I just think this is a reflection of the fact that this is a medieval country with social practices that are more suited to, like 200 years ago. It's, a lot of it [00:41:30] is excused, a lot of it is encouraged, both legally and outside the ambit of law, because I feel like this is fundamentally how society thinks.[00:41:36] Jayashree : It's the same sort of instinct that makes people want to castrate convicts. Mm. You want to hang convicts. It's- It's like you're stuck in this sort of medieval feudal mindset where people want this sort of crude, immediate satisfaction. Look, and even the death penalty, public executions are called a barbaric practice, but all executions are barbaric.[00:41:57] Jayashree : All humiliations and [00:42:00] paradings are barbaric. And when cops do anything, I mean, in life your starting point should always be to look at it with a pinch of salt and then work your way backwards. But in India that's not enough. I think they... I think as a cop you should be punished for it. You need- Right ... you have no severe consequences to not be terrible people.[00:42:19] Jayashree : It should be a criminal offense for a cop to do it, and I think the police in general have too much leeway and there should be a criminal code to cover police atrocities. So I don't think this is an issue of can this happen to a [00:42:30] politician? I'm saying the issue is that it happens to everyone, and we are getting headlines about it because the videos happen to be of politicians.[00:42:39] Jayashree : So- [00:42:39] Abhinandan: Other than Ram Rahim, it doesn't happen to him. Yeah. Whereas he could do a wax on his back. I don't know. Sh- sh- I mean, uh, not to be a hairist or whatever. What[00:42:51] Jayashree : is the [00:42:51] Abhinandan: appropriate discriminatory word? But- You are a [00:42:51] Jayashree : hairist ... [00:42:51] Abhinandan: you know, hair on the shoulders is, is a bit strange for me, but so maybe Ram Rahim, but he's always gonna be a different- I [00:42:58] Jayashree : entire a speech and this is what you take [00:42:59] Abhinandan: [00:43:00] away. This is what I take away from it, that you know, but he got- [00:43:01] Jayashree : Incredible [00:43:02] Abhinandan: Just one distinction I wanna make is like, I'm also against the death penalty like you, but I, I understand that it is a barbaric practice, but it is legislated in law.[00:43:11] Anand: Hmm. [00:43:12] Rinchen : Yeah. [00:43:12] Abhinandan: This is not legislated in law. Yeah. It is clearly outside of the... Kolkata High Court has frowned upon it. Yeah. Will anything happen? Does- doesn't matter. The Tamil Nadu, those cops who killed that father, son in custody- Mm. Mm ... yeah ... they've been given life imprisonment. [00:43:27] Rinchen : Yeah. [00:43:28] Abhinandan: Fantastic outcome. We need more [00:43:30] such, but this is probably .001% out of- Yeah[00:43:33] Abhinandan: all the custodial deaths that happen. But Manisha, is this something that is very dangerous and we are, hafta we are discussing it, but it's not being discussed anywhere. If this is what is being set as an example- [00:43:47] Rinchen : Hmm ... [00:43:48] Abhinandan: and I, I agree that even we are demonstrating some elitism, we're talking about it because some, uh, members of Parliament or former MLAs are being subjected to this.[00:43:57] Abhinandan: Petty criminals are subjected to this every day, these [00:44:00] parades and torn shirt and what you said, you know, legs dragged after being beaten up. But if this is the standard that is set, would you be surprised if when the government changes, the same rules apply? And how would you expect the media then to react?[00:44:21] Abhinandan: It did like this because I think it also takes a long time for you to be in that position of power to then this be acceptable. Hmm. [00:44:27] Manisha : I think Jayshi hit the nail on the head. We are a [00:44:30] shame-based society, and a lot of Asian societies are like that, where the biggest ... Your relevance comes from your social connections, whose daughter are you, whose whatever are you.[00:44:40] Manisha : And so sh- the biggest punishment we can give to anyone is shame and humiliation. And we've internalized this, that that's what gets people to understand and fall in line. It starts right from school. I think we are the only country or whatever, South Asian societies, even Asian society I'll say, like this murga bana.[00:44:57] Manisha : Yeah. Like, wh- why do teachers do this? [00:45:00] Yeah. "Ki aapne kuch kara nahi toh bahar..." Like murga kaun banata hai? [00:45:03] Song : Mm. [00:45:03] Manisha : It's a uniquely Indian thing. Ki- the thing is that you will learn if you put you outside, we make you do some weird, like, whatever acrobatics- Contortions ... with your... It starts at school. And I think this is what the police, it's an extension of that sort of a mindset which we do with criminals or accused or convicts, where you have to humiliate them into, you know, sort of set an example for everyone else to not do the same thing.[00:45:26] Manisha : In the, in this case, I think with, uh, even if you look at [00:45:30] some of, in UP what has happened with these dons. [00:45:32] Song : Hmm. [00:45:33] Manisha : Where you had bulldozers or you had an Atiq Ahmed shot in, you know, broad, it was not daylight, but broad like- Yeah ... whatever- Literally out in the open ... moonlight. Yeah. Uh, with this case, I think one of the cases that really, uh, hit the headline was the TMC goon who was basically shaved, paraded.[00:45:50] Manisha : W- it is also, uh, sort of um, you know, it shows how badly law and order fails in India for a daily basis for people to then accept [00:46:00] this. Because for 30 years you've seen this don do whatever he does, just go completely, you know, unchallenged. Same with say, an Atiq Ahmed who was a land mafia. Mm. You saw him just reign on and go on and do whatever he was doing without any repercussions.[00:46:17] Manisha : And so when the tide changes, there's a lot of satisfaction among people that, "Okay, he deserved it, what he got." In th- this TMC goon thing also, I don't think we would see public ... I would separate what's happening to [00:46:30] politicians versus what's happening to strongmen. Because I think strongmen, people have seen as, uh, you know, guys who've gotten away for too long without any justice being done.[00:46:39] Manisha : So when the police does this, I think people are probably very happy. Ki good, sabak sikhaya finally. So when for so long justice fails you on a daily basis, it becomes very cathartic for a society to have these things done. [00:46:50] Song : Mm. [00:46:50] Manisha : I feel in India what we may, if I was to imagine a future, I think the rich getting away in the way they do for so long, if it goes [00:47:00] on in the way that it does for another 20 years, I do see the richest of people being dragged out of their house, you know- [00:47:07] Abhinandan: Mm[00:47:07] Manisha : head shaved, paraded Because of the sheer inequality that people have seen go on for so long [00:47:14] Abhinandan: Yeah, the frustration would seem. If, if they cannot get justice, they'll [00:47:15] Manisha : get catharsis Or, or even with the corruption Mm ... the kind of petty corruption that people have just excused on a daily basis. If things change, I think those are the things that will[00:47:25] Manisha : People may wanna do that to that, to [00:47:28] Jayashree : certain- I just wanna add one tiny thing, which is, I mean, [00:47:30] on the same shame-based nature of it. And I mean, you said that this is not legal or whatever, but I'm saying that since I feel it's so entrenched in society, you also see it in courts. I mean, there was this entire thing last year, I think in some Delhi court, where the bench was annoyed with some guy because he was wasting their time or he had delayed.[00:47:47] Jayashree : I forget the details of it. So they made him stand in the corner of the courtroom with his hands in the air for the entire day until the bench rose. And that is just like- [00:47:54] Manisha : Yeah ... [00:47:54] Jayashree : it's again, it's very school boy sort of chastising, which shouldn't exist in schools either. But the [00:48:00] court also enforces stuff like this because this is just the nature of who we are.[00:48:04] Jayashree : It is- [00:48:05] Abhinandan: Yeah. In [00:48:05] Jayashree : fact- We get some satisfaction from it. [00:48:07] Manisha : In fact, like European, um, as Jayshree is, I think she ... I mean, she comes from this post-enlightenment European mindset where everyone should- [00:48:17] Jayashree : Mm-hmm. [00:48:18] Manisha : Yeah ... yeah, I mean, this whole thinking that if you've done something wrong, so for example, the Germans, there's a lot of guilt.[00:48:24] Manisha : Mm. You know, like you have to just go inwards and shame yourself. That is your redemption. In [00:48:30] India, it's like other people have to shame you through exit you for you to kind of realize. [00:48:33] Abhinandan: Hm. [00:48:34] Manisha : So that kind- [00:48:35] Abhinandan: Even, uh, Jataka tales and Tenali Raman is all about escorting someone through the market with everyone making fun, et cetera, et cetera, which is more in line with that show with dragons and all, whatever it's called, which was set in- [00:48:47] Rinchen : Oh, [00:48:47] Rinchen : Game of [00:48:47] Rinchen : Thrones [00:48:48] Abhinandan: Game of Thrones.[00:48:48] Abhinandan: Game of Thrones. [00:48:48] Rinchen : Yeah. [00:48:49] Abhinandan: Now, um, j- uh, Anand, before we come to you, I was just seeing, um- The list of people who have been paraded, uh, they are [00:49:00] strong one, like you said, TMC youth leader. Egging was happening to, uh, someone from- I [00:49:06] Manisha : think Abhishek [00:49:09] Abhinandan: Banerjee also got heckled or something happened- Yeah, he got heckled[00:49:10] Abhinandan: eggs thrown at him ... eggs, et cetera, under his throne, et cetera. Um, so there's a long list, and the BJP in Bengal says this is a reflection of Ram Rajya. You see, this is what I'm saying. It is not an outlier. It is consistent with a very ancient and [00:49:30] almost fossilized view of what the world should be, and it starts from the top.[00:49:36] Abhinandan: It is not that Modi Ji is some forward-looking people and the rest are like this. It's consistent with everything else. But yeah, uh, the legal aspect, where will it go from here? And why do you think it is that this gets a free pass in our country? [00:49:50] Anand: Now, legal aspect, uh, uh, if you go to Section 49 of BNSS, that is Bhartiya Nagrik [00:50:00] Suraksha Sanhita, which was earlier CRPC.[00:50:03] Anand: So handcuffing is not the rule, it is the excep- exception. So normally people should not be handcuffed, and it gives a theory of necessity that people ha- should be handcuffed only when they, there is a clear evidence, uh, or clear, uh, apprehension of them, [00:50:30] uh, escaping. [00:50:31] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:50:31] Anand: Or they are extremely violent and there is evidence for it.[00:50:35] Abhinandan: Threat to others or themselves. [00:50:36] Anand: Uh-huh. So the only two conditions are there, unless if you are, uh, have no objection to it, like George Fernandes didn't, uh- Mm ... wanted handcuffed for optics. So, uh- Also, there are lot of Supreme Court cases where they have given post-arrest protocol or what should be the guidelines.[00:50:57] Anand: Uh, so, uh, like Prem Shankar [00:51:00] Shukla versus Delhi Administration, uh, Sunil Batra versus Delhi Administration, and the most important case is D.K. Basu versus State of West Bengal. So, uh, there also the theory of necessity has been, uh, upheld that, uh, uh, handcuffing should not be there. So, mm, that, mm, that is it.[00:51:24] Anand: Second, uh, point why it is, uh, as, uh, as a [00:51:30] retributive society. So sup-suppose, uh, in villages, uh, say child rapist is caught. So there are three cops there, two constables as one assistant sub-inspector. So the villagers will encourage the cops to-- for similar parading, let us parade. The responsibility of the cop is not to do that.[00:51:56] Anand: He has to not get swayed by the public sentiment. [00:52:00] [00:52:00] Abhinandan: Although in Kashmir, the reverse happened, right? The guy was garlanded. [00:52:04] Manisha : Yeah. Tathua rape case. Tathua rape case. [00:52:06] Anand: Yeah, so- [00:52:06] Manisha : Uh, one of the accused, I think. [00:52:08] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:52:08] Anand: Though the responsibility of the cops is that... And a lot of say, uh, uh, it is not that cops are not trained for it.[00:52:17] Anand: Even many IS, uh, uh, sorry, IPS officers head the human rights branch. They teach them what to do, what's the protocol, what's the date. And I would not say that it [00:52:30] is, uh, say, uh, mm, very, say normalization of it, because, uh, in some sense it is still a aberration, but it is, uh, fairly, say, mm, you can say aberrations which are now very regular.[00:52:49] Anand: So, uh- [00:52:51] Abhinandan: You think there's a danger of this being repeated, and how [00:52:53] Anand: would- Uh, so, uh- ... society react to that? I, i- in, in West Bengal, where Say, [00:53:00] vengeance is seen as a political asset, a kind of political culture. So the post, uh, poll violence didn't happen, and I had written that, uh, as a national party, BJP has to see because CPIM was almost a lo- uh, its Bengal version was almost a localized party.[00:53:20] Anand: Yeah, one [00:53:20] Abhinandan: state party. [00:53:20] Anand: And TMC-- So BJP has an opportunity to introduce a different kind of political culture [00:53:30] where post-poll violence, uh, does not, uh, have a very, say, regional repercussion of that, those cultural underpinnings of vengeance, retribution- Mm. ... all that. But that has clearly not happened. And it, it has, uh, the post-poll v-violence is not of the same scale, but it has come through the back door.[00:53:55] Anand: It is also a kind of-- Now the, mm, justification [00:54:00] that is a reconstruction of the, uh, crime scene. Hmm. It can be a reconstruction of the crime scene, uh, but, uh, outside of the public layer. So, uh- [00:54:10] Abhinandan: And buying undergarments. [00:54:11] Anand: Uh, so, uh, and, uh, I, I think, uh, an IPS officer from West Bengal, a retired one, has written a piece on it that how, uh, it should not be defended in court by the Bengal police.[00:54:26] Anand: So, uh, he has given, uh, some precedents also. [00:54:30] So, uh, um, I think, uh, within the top police leadership also, there are, uh, voices which reject this. But, uh, why, uh, this vendetta politics is being normalized through these procedures, I think the logic is same. I think it has-- The vengeance politics has come through the back door.[00:54:55] Anand: It was not practiced like that, but it ha-has been practiced like this. [00:54:58] Abhinandan: But I mean, um, [00:55:00] it's nice if some senior I-IPS officers object this. I haven't read the piece, but I mean, I, I'll read it. But having spoken to many, knowing many, I was stranded in airport one and a half hours with a former director general of a prominent state.[00:55:16] Abhinandan: He has been DG of two states, actually. What he said to me at the airport waiting area and what I read even his columns is dimetric-diametrically opposite. So what they may believe is very different from what they say because they want some, [00:55:30] you know, posting or they want to still be relevant with whatever is there.[00:55:33] Abhinandan: But, uh, again, speculate-- speaking of speculation, my projection of what would happen with the Deepke protest was so off. Hmm. Like my cut to cut was, yeah, completely, uh, well done. [00:55:48] Jayashree : What was your [00:55:49] Abhinandan: prediction? Mine was that they would, uh, pick him up But distract the media with other, you know, something else would happen.[00:55:58] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:56:00] Uh, but they let him protest, but then he wound up at 4:00 also. I don't know what happened there. Mm. There's another protest this Saturday, right? [00:56:05] Manisha : Yes. [00:56:06] Abhinandan: Yes, in Delhi. [00:56:06] Rinchen : Yeah. [00:56:07] Abhinandan: Right. Uh, so I mean, I just want to ... I've said this I think before in Half The, one of the first few reports I had covered back in News Track in, I think this was '95 or '96.[00:56:18] Abhinandan: I had just started. I had gone with a camera to, I think Tis Hazari Court or Patiala House, one of them. And there was this punishment had been given by a lady judge to this guy who, what those days used to be called [00:56:30] eve teasing. [00:56:31] Rinchen : Mm. [00:56:31] Abhinandan: Which now is assault or harassment. Uh, and she had ... He was, uh, told to stand in the corner, uh, with his...[00:56:38] Abhinandan: holding ears something. Yeah. And I had been asked to go interview him. And can you imagine? I mean, I can't even imagine those days because there were, like, two or three cameras in town. One was a News Track camera, one was a Doordarshan camera, and one was probably, uh, you know, World This Week used to basically work on footage from the government.[00:56:55] Abhinandan: But there were two or... So the judge actually said, "Okay, go in the [00:57:00] corner." I said, "Can I take him out for an interview?" She says, "No, you interview him there only in the corner. «Chup chap kijiye.» Don't disturb court proceeding." So I was actually interviewing this guy while a case was being heard in the court.[00:57:09] Abhinandan: I mean, I, I, I remember I went with a camera inside while covering elections, voted on camera. Cameras were pretty don't go anywhere back then. But yeah. Um, so s- speaking of speculation W- where do you think this ends? Do you think this will be taken as a case in point and said, "Okay, we will file this, and when the [00:57:30] government changes, we will repeat this"?[00:57:32] Abhinandan: And if that happens, how would you imagine the media would react? [00:57:36] Rinchen : Uh, I mean, uh, whatever Jayashree said about this, I completely agree. Uh, but I'd just would like to add a couple of more things to it. One is, um, see, so as she's quite rightly pointed out, we are a medieval society, um, and that this sort of thing is, like, super common amongst...[00:57:52] Rinchen : Of course, now because it's politicians and MPs, we're sort of paying attention to it. [00:57:56] Rinchen : Mm. [00:57:56] Rinchen : But, uh, you have to understand that, and we talk about police and how [00:58:00] police should conduct themselves, I mean, police also comes from that same society. They're not, I mean, they're not people who are sort of, uh, who are s- you know, who are some separate beings.[00:58:10] Rinchen : They're part of the same society, so they sort of, they imbibe the same sort of, um, uh, sort of morals in that case, right? So one is that. The second is, um, this sort of thing, to answer your question, I think if, as, as Anand rightly pointed out, the BJP had an opportunity to introduce a new political culture [00:58:30] in this, after this.[00:58:31] Rinchen : Now, now they, but they've gone, they, but they've reverted to this. And I think this, in m- my sort of prediction, is that this might set a precedent, and this is pre- this is a precedent that I don't think is good for any of us, uh, for this country and for, for its people as well. I mean, yeah, this whole public humiliation ritual is something I don't...[00:58:51] Rinchen : I personally find it pretty barbaric. Mm. I don't think, no matter what the person has been accused of, I think that, you know, due, there's a reason due process exists, [00:59:00] right? But at the same time, I know, I know for a fact there are people who would like to see some sort of reckoning for- [00:59:06] Abhinandan: Yeah ... [00:59:07] Rinchen : this administration.[00:59:08] Rinchen : But I think there's a way to do this. I mean, if there, if there is to be and if, if, there's a lot of ifs involved here. But say, one example a lot of people bring up are the Nuremberg trials- [00:59:18] Abhinandan: Mm ... [00:59:19] Rinchen : after World War II, where, you know... I mean, it was also a spectacle. It was also performative. Yeah, but man, how [00:59:23] Abhinandan: civilized [00:59:24] Rinchen : was that?[00:59:24] Rinchen : How... But yeah, but, but, but there was a certain order and due process to it. [00:59:28] Manisha : And how much focus on [00:59:30] each aspect of society that failed. It wasn't just these events. Yes. There's so much body of work where the society looks within. [00:59:36] Rinchen : Yeah. [00:59:36] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:59:36] Rinchen : Right. So that, and like, even like, for example, when N- Nelson Mandela, after, you know, those years of apartheid, there was this whole thing about truth and reconciliation, right?[00:59:46] Rinchen : So again, the, there's also, of course, there is also performative, ritualistic aspect to it, but it, it has, it has to be done in a s- in a sort of, in a, in a pr- proper, formal manner with due process. [00:59:57] Manisha : I think two things, just to offer a [01:00:00] prediction. Uh, if this, if... Because the BJP's rule in India, I think, cannot be directly compared to TMC's in West Bengal.[01:00:07] Manisha : I mean, it's very different in its quality because I think BJP does strike a lot of negotiations with- various caste groups and all that. But this, if there is a continuing suspicion on SIR and voting, I think that'll really rile up people to this level, where if they feel that their vote didn't count, it could lead to a situation where people actually want law in their hand.[01:00:27] Manisha : And I feel like this kind of [01:00:30] frustration that, uh, is acceptable, probably people are feeling towards the mainstream media. So if the BJP does go out of power, I feel the first backlash will be- Yeah ... towards anchors. [01:00:40] Song : Yeah. Yeah. [01:00:41] Manisha : Already you see this on ground. Yeah. And I, I think sometimes it's very unfair because reporters are at the receiving end.[01:00:47] Manisha : Yeah. And some who I know are actually very, you know, wonderful- One of our, [01:00:49] Abhinandan: uh, um- [01:00:50] Manisha : Former colleague ... former colleague. Um, and he was just heckled for no reason. [01:00:53] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:00:54] Manisha : And he's never done this Hindu-Muslim kind of thing. But I feel anchors will really... You know, [01:01:00] which is why I think they have so much skin in the game in supporting- Yeah[01:01:02] Manisha : this government, no matter what it does. [01:01:05] Jayashree : I just have one thing I wanna add, which is that, I mean, I know I'm incredibly pessimistic about it, but I also just don't think the BJ- I mean, it's a show of many political parties in India, but the BJP especially, I don't think it's particularly committed to the idea of good governance or, you know, administrative- Yeah, yeah[01:01:21] Jayashree : form or- Not at all ... anything. I mean, even this entire Telegram cartoonry that is going on, it really shows the sort of administrative imagination of the government, which is [01:01:30] to say it is impoverished, and all they can do is clown shit and repeat, like, revenge patterns or whatever. So I feel like it's a very important thing to remember.[01:01:38] Jayashree : Like, yes, they are undemocratic and evil and whatnot, but even if you take all that away, take away all the active malice and the anti-minority rhetoric and everything else, and you're still left with, I feel like a bunch of clowns. And they are quite intellectually feeble and actively lacking in competence and capability.[01:01:57] Jayashree : So the idea that they [01:02:00] would even think of the optics of doing things differently than what existed before in Bengal, I think that idea would never even occur, so. [01:02:09] Manisha : But to BJP's defense, as Anand was saying, like, they can say that, look, there's no large scale violence. No one's houses are being burned. [01:02:17] Abhinandan: Mm.[01:02:17] Manisha : We're just throwing some eggs. It's like- Sure ... the scale of violence is actually quite negligible. [01:02:24] Abhinandan: Compared to what it has been like, yeah. Compared to what TMC [01:02:26] Manisha : did to the left. [01:02:26] Abhinandan: Because culturally what, and what left used to do for what? 33 years. [01:02:30] Yeah. Mm. But see, I've, I'm never in favor of that argument. Uh, and it's often made on Hafta, it's made elsewhere Dude, there's a big difference in 2026- [01:02:41] Manisha : Mm.[01:02:42] Abhinandan: -and 2001 or 1984. And I think that argument for me is very disturbing because it demonstrates that you don't believe time moves anywhere. [01:02:54] Rinchen : Mm. [01:02:55] Abhinandan: What democracy meant ... Dude, science has moved more in 100 years than it did in the [01:03:00] last 10,000 years, yeah. [01:03:01] Rinchen : Mm. [01:03:02] Abhinandan: It'll move faster in the next 10 years. So if your frames of references, and for me, '80s is not some ancient past.[01:03:09] Abhinandan: For you kids it may be. [01:03:10] Rinchen : Mm. [01:03:11] Abhinandan: I was a young man in the '80s. I knew what the fuck was happening. I knew, I remember what happened when Indira Gandhi died. I knew where we were. I knew what we were doing. I It's, it's not so ancient, but even when someone says, "Oh, this happened," and I'm like, "Dude, my God." If that is the caliber- Yeah[01:03:27] Abhinandan: of argument, then I have nothing. What are you gonna tell someone [01:03:30] who says, "But in 1902 this happened"? [01:03:32] Rinchen : Mm. [01:03:32] Abhinandan: I give up. Yeah. That's not an argument you can make. Uh, what are you gonna argue with someone saying, "The boss, you know, this is what happened in Gautam Buddha's time." I go, "Okay, so you go to Buddha's time.[01:03:44] Abhinandan: What should I say to you? We have studied, written, penicillin has been invented." You know, enlightenment happened, so many books have been written. If you want to go there, you cannot argue with that. That is the ultimate demonstration of [01:04:00] idiocy. Yes. And you can't argue with idio- idiocy, you just have to back off.[01:04:04] Abhinandan: And that is... Danger is when the caliber of arguments, and these arguments have always been there by trolls. Mm. But my point is, these are the arguments that are made by sitting cabinet ministers. Mm. When that language and the language of your Twitter troll says, "Allen." [01:04:20] Song : Mm. [01:04:21] Abhinandan: Then you know that this is the caliber of what you can expect.[01:04:25] Anand: No, uh, what I was saying that politics aside, I think, uh, um, the [01:04:30] immediate history, uh, forms a part of social dynamics. We don't operate in vacuum. So the language I am speaking was not invented by me. The camera which is capturing me is not invented by me. Every sort of ideas that have been discussed have been discussed thousand times.[01:04:53] Anand: Also, uh, when, uh, there are political and social forces [01:05:00] at play, uh, they don't spring, I think barring a few that may, from a kind of historical vacuum. So I think, uh, whoever does it, but, uh, historical context forms a platform for politics, means at least the immediate history. [01:05:22] Abhinandan: No doubt. I just think there is a difference in...[01:05:24] Abhinandan: I mean, let me take the example. Let me take the article you wrote about IAS is an, is to [01:05:30] test a certain elite in, you know, I, I don't know whether you've used the word elite, but, uh, I, if you could just quote. [01:05:36] Anand: No, I s- I said that IAS is supposed to ruthlessly reject, to select a few. To [01:05:42] Abhinandan: select a few. [01:05:42] Anand: It is, it is meant to do that.[01:05:44] Abhinandan: So it is, I mean, the word elite would be appropriate for that, that to reject ruthlessly and select a few who are really smart, whatever your definition of smart may be. Just like we are watching the World Cup because the world's best are playing, [01:06:00] not because Sambit Patra and Modi are putting on football shoes and making asses of themselves.[01:06:06] Abhinandan: Anything that is worth watching, listening to, or reacting to is done by people who are the best at that, and that is the expectation of leadership So if that is the expectation from sport, from administration, it has to be the expectation from conversations and the conversations that we have a[01:06:30] [01:06:36] Abhinandan: So, which is why this whole anti-elitism movement, no, which is spearheaded by buffoons who are not good at anything, they will take World Cup to let any buffoon play. They will take, uh, uh, any pursuit which requires rigor, it requires hard work. You have to read thousands of books to become a [01:07:00] historian. But a Chaman Bahar who does it on the side of being a professor will challenge a Romila Thapar, whatever you may think of her.[01:07:10] Abhinandan: "Arey beta padhte le pehle 15 kitaabe phir do shabd bolna." So I just think that is what is the expectation. And make no mistake, it will extend into every field if that is what we want. It will extend to sport, it will extend to any sort of academia. That gentleman who was such a sweet man off camera, [01:07:30] who Haryana had made as a consultant to the education system, who I interviewed in I Agree, uh, from the RSS, I forget, I'll put a link in the show notes.[01:07:39] Abhinandan: Uh, who had said that if you curse a glass of water and put it in the freezer and then you say shlokas to a glass of water and put it in this beaker, the crystallization are formed separately. One is a ugly crystal, one is a beautiful crystal. He was an advisor to the Haryana government for s- setting their, uh, syllabus Now, [01:08:00] if, you know, that is what you reward, this is the shit you're gonna get.[01:08:04] Abhinandan: So anyway, Mani, uh, we will give Jayshree the last word before we get into the mails. [01:08:09] Jayashree : Last word on what? [01:08:10] Abhinandan: On anything you want. It could be even about the weather in Chennai, which is not so good, I hear. [01:08:16] Jayashree : Weather's superb, guys. I don't know what you guys are talking about. No, I mean, I agree with you. I think that I, uh, don't argue in favor of elitism, but, like, I don't think their argument makes sense, and we see it all the time, like X happened in the Mu- [01:08:30] Mughal period, Nehru was responsible for Y.[01:08:31] Jayashree : It is just a very lazy way of trying to circumvent around an actual issue, so. But people are lazy. It's, it's like one of those gotcha things that they'll do. It is inarguable because they are so stupid, and I think that entirely proves my entire theory of the intellectual feebleness of the current party that is in power.[01:08:50] Jayashree : It is... It cannot think beyond that sort of rhetoric. It is the rhetoric that is so craved by the people who support this party in power, so [01:09:00] therefore it work. [01:09:01] Abhinandan: Right. Yeah. So before I get to mails, I just wanna give one little anecdote. I... There was a dinner a few weeks ago, and I met a prominent former member of parliament of the BJP who is very well-educated.[01:09:13] Abhinandan: I will not give that person's profession, 'cause then it would narrow it down. But that person is a profession that requires a lot of study. It cannot be done time pass, like podcast hosts. Uh, and I s- told them, I was like, "We've been friends [01:09:30] in the past." It was a friendly exchange in spite of all the assaults of the government and my view of the government, of the government's cases on me and the rest of News Laundry.[01:09:40] Abhinandan: Uh, that person said something very sensible, that this is what we should do f- you know, for climate change. I said, "That's fantastic." I said, "I wish more people from your party said this who are in positions of power, rather than say that Patanjali is such a great idea and he's curing AIDS and COVID and homosexuality."[01:09:55] Abhinandan: This person said, "Why? Just because it is said by our traditional [01:10:00] means and not by medical science? Who says that is better and ra..." I said, "Are you seriously having this discussion with me?" I said, "You, I know you." I know this person has not always thought like that, but this person realizes, if I have to survive in this political party, I have to become an idiot.[01:10:19] Abhinandan: I have to start saying no Ramdev is as right or wrong as science-based medicine. I said, "Okay, tell me the date where the Indian life expectancy [01:10:30] was more than Western life ex- Tell me the date it was life ex-" "Oh, just because they have been managing it and we have not." I said, "Then what are you gonna base it on now?[01:10:40] Abhinandan: You have to base it on something." So the reward is just like the wonderful show that Manisha, uh, recommended, which I have got hooked onto, and I'm on the last, uh, season. Homelander, Boys. Basically, dude, if you have to be in that guy's ecosystem, you have to [01:11:00] say, "Black is white, white is black. We are all gadha.[01:11:03] Abhinandan: We are..." Otherwise, you cannot stay. So then people are just going. You have incentivized stupidity, and that is the biggest legacy I think of our current, uh, big chief. With that, now we'll move on to the emails. [01:11:18] Jayashree : Am I allowed to sit for the emails, or are you gonna throw me out as the guest? [01:11:22] Abhinandan: Since you're a guest, you can leave.[01:11:25] Abhinandan: But no, please stay, and you will give answers to as many of them as you can. [01:11:29] Jayashree : This is a problem. [01:11:30] But, [01:11:30] Abhinandan: but we give you work. But before we do that, we have made a promo which we want you to watch now, and act after you watch it, please. My generation has failed the children of today, especially Gen Z, clearly, and that is why, parents, I need to talk to you.[01:11:49] Abhinandan: The news' job is public interest, and that is why it's called public interest journalism. But my generation of journalists have simply failed our [01:12:00] children. We sold out, and unfortunately, most of us serve power. Our children's futures are at risk. They were out protesting on the streets. TV media should have covered that.[01:12:14] Abhinandan: Did they? Mm-hmm. They blacked it out. It was not visible on any television channel. The government has budgets to amplify their own voice, but what about our children? Who amplifies their voice? [01:12:30] We want justice. We want justice. It is the legacy news' job, and legacy news failed them. We've got your children covered.[01:12:41] Promo : Respect for News Laundry.[01:12:46] Abhinandan: What our generation has done with the environment, the politics of today, and news is bad enough. Leave a better news media for your children. Don't let diabetes be the only thing your children inherit from you, [01:13:00] including this messed up planet. Let them inherit independent journalism. Pay to keep news free, if not for yours, for theirs.[01:13:17] Abhinandan: With that wonderful note, uh, if you are already subscribed, you can mail us at podcast@newslaund.com or you can click on the link in the show notes below. Please keep your communication less than 150 words. We [01:13:30] appreciate your feedback, your criticism, and believe it or not, act on much of it. And there are gonna be several mails about the app, so we can skip those.[01:13:37] Abhinandan: I'm telling you right now, I had a word just before we started recording. There were, yes, a few glitches with the app that was pushed out. The testing has happened. It has happened on devices all the way back to Apple 11, whatever. Basically, 2011 iPhone. We have gone all the way back there and checked it on all the iPhones.[01:13:58] Abhinandan: It is right now at the [01:14:00] iStore for whatever their processing time is. By the time this po- podcast is out It should work fine. If it still doesn't, please do write in. Your criticism is valid, but just telling you, those bugs have been fixed and tested, and the push should be happening as we speak on iOS. On Android, it is working fine.[01:14:21] Abhinandan: Go ahead. [01:14:21] Manisha : Yeah, I'll read and then Jayashree can comment. No, [01:14:24] Abhinandan: I'm not gonna answer all of them. Of course you have to answer, Jayashree. Otherwise, what's [01:14:27] Manisha : the point? There's one email, I've curated the letters and I've made sure [01:14:30] that there's one email talking about how great you are. To make you feel happy.[01:14:33] Jayashree : That's what we need. [01:14:34] Manisha : So Prashant Rao says, "Dear NL Hafta team, the format has started feeling repetitive. The same panel recapping things many of us already know is getting stale. Shows like Mann Ki Baat with Mani Shankar Aiyar- Mann Ki [01:14:45] Jayashree : Baat. [01:14:47] Manisha : Mani Ki Baat. Oh, yeah, Mani Ki Baat with Mani Shankar Aiyar and Dil Se with Kapil Sibal bring in sharp subject matter experts who go straight to the point.[01:14:56] Manisha : Guests like Chidambaram, Shiv Shankar Menon, Arun Kumar, [01:15:00] Gurmehar Kaur make those conversations genuinely interesting. I'd love to see NL Hafta bring in more such voices and not just journalists. If that doesn't fit the format, please consider a dedicated expert-led series. Also, your website is a bit hard to navigate and find new videos, reels, tweets that you post.[01:15:16] Manisha : A unified content feed would go a long way. Rooting for you to keep evolving, Prashant Rao." [01:15:21] Abhinandan: Thank you, Prashant, uh- [01:15:22] Manisha : You know, there are a lot of fans of Kapil Sibal's show. [01:15:25] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:15:25] Manisha : Dil Se. Yeah, but it's called Dil Se. Yeah, it's called Dil Se because he's really speaking from his heart. But, and [01:15:30] actually it's ni-- I mean, I liked a few episodes that I saw.[01:15:32] Abhinandan: I mean, this Hafta format is serving a different purpose, Mr. Rao. Um- [01:15:37] Manisha : We can try and bring in policy experts, if not [01:15:42] Abhinandan: politicians. Yeah We, we do. Takshashila say the policy experts only come, but we can't get politicians 'cause you cannot have a politician in four or five panel, and the politician only will get to speak.[01:15:50] Abhinandan: Mm. So that's has to be a one-on-one. And [01:15:51] Manisha : then we really have to make sure that politicians of all parties come, which will be hard. [01:15:55] Abhinandan: Will be hard. So which is why we keep it to journalists. Aravind [01:15:57] Manisha : Srinivasa says, "Hello, I [01:16:00] absolutely love the series Let's Talk About Punjab. I did not know what to expect, but it was captivi-captivating, professionally produced podcast I binged.[01:16:07] Manisha : Then I moved on to the next one about Bihar, and the format was totally different. From a gripping storytelling through narration, it was a panel discussion, which was drab. You need to have consistent format and standards for podcast series. Of course, different topics will have varied needs, but the drastic difference in format and quality is not a pleasant experience.[01:16:25] Manisha : A good example would be Land of the Giants. I look forward to future [01:16:30] series." [01:16:30] Abhinandan: Note it. [01:16:31] Anand: I, I, so I, I had said that it is a panel discussion. I told production, even editorial, that you should put it as a panel disc- It was basically two books' authors- whom I was talking to. It was not- [01:16:45] Abhinandan: But they were area experts.[01:16:46] Abhinandan: I mean, they were not just- Were in- ... any authors, yeah ... two books- Both those authors were authoritative books on Bihar. They weren't [01:16:51] Anand: like- Two books had come out, so it- Yeah, but [01:16:53] Abhinandan: both of them are authors of [01:16:55] Anand: significance, right? No, no. One was Ram Vilas Paswan biography- Sure ... which had [01:17:00] some interact- intersection with Bihar, but not much.[01:17:03] Anand: And one had- But- ... was a general book. So I had suggested that there should be two interviews, you, and you, you are right that it was not a L- Let's Talk About... But, uh, uh, n- not for the content. You should, uh, uh, watch it for being participating in a world record feat. It was, uh, so, m- made available f- six months after it was recorded.[01:17:28] Abhinandan: Hm. [01:17:28] Anand: So. [01:17:29] Abhinandan: You were saying, [01:17:30] Jayashree? [01:17:30] Jayashree : Yeah, if I could just, um... But the thing with Let's Talk About also is that there are two very different kind of products that would live inside it. So one would be the scripted narrative format that was Let's Talk About Punjab, which was therefore also produced very differently, and the other is where we had interviews, we I'm saying, News Laundry has interviews with authors and so on and so forth, and then that would be converted into a podcast.[01:17:52] Jayashree : So the Bihar podcast was a very different product from the- [01:17:55] Rinchen : Hm ... [01:17:56] Jayashree : Punjab podcast, though they both serve as a deep dive into a [01:18:00] topic. But I will take the compliment about Let's Talk About Punjab very personally because it was absolutely an albatross around my neck, and I think it turned out spectacularly, but mostly thanks to the production team.[01:18:11] Jayashree : I think it was Aryan who produced it. [01:18:13] Abhinandan: Yeah. Thank you. [01:18:16] Manisha : Piyush Sharma says, "Hello, Hafta. I've been a longtime viewer of NewsSense and recently became a subscriber. Exploring all the work has been an enriching experience. I recently finished reading 'The Law of Force: The Violent Hearts of Indian Politics,' which touched on the Dalit public sphere, or as the [01:18:30] book calls it, Dalit publics.[01:18:31] Manisha : What struck me was the idea that it has its own festivals, martyrs, and cultural traditions. The book also notes that this is largely unfamiliar to upper-caste publics, and that when it enters the broader public sphere, it is often met with violence. The Bhima Koregaon incident was cited as one example. As an upper-caste Hindu, I found the argument accurate.[01:18:49] Manisha : My understanding of the Dalit public sphere remains limited by what I come across on Twitter or Instagram. I'd love to know more about this, hear your views on it, and learn what you know about it. And when the history [01:19:00] of News Laundry is written, I think it should be titled 'Stay Mad,' that's the only way."[01:19:05] Manisha : We'll forward this to our partners at TNM, and I think, like, maybe there's an interesting conversation on series to be done on the Dalit public sphere For the Dalit publics, as the book says. Hmm. [01:19:18] Song : Ishan [01:19:19] Manisha : Miglani says, "I'm a recent subscriber, and I've been listening to Haftaa episodes for the past few weeks now.[01:19:24] Manisha : I have some feedback I'd like to provide on Anand. I understand the need for contrarian views and [01:19:30] for views that differ from yours to actually have a nuanced discussion with different takes. However, outlandish tangents and catering to them degrade the substance of the discussion. Recent take on 592 about courage being possible only if there's an-- there isn't an incentive involved, and the digression that followed was really disappointing.[01:19:49] Manisha : Most of his views seem to be adversarial for the sake of being adversarial. I think he gets away too much allowance to go on tangents that end nowhere and leave the conversation more muddled. This is not an attack on Anand, [01:20:00] just my opinion about what and how I see him contributing to these episodes."[01:20:04] Manisha : Anand? [01:20:07] Anand: He's entitled to his views, that's all. [01:20:10] Manisha : Her, Isha. Isha. No, it can be him. [01:20:13] Abhinandan: Ishan can be either. [01:20:14] Manisha : Yeah. Mm. Jhelum to Rhine. Long time subscriber, first time writer. One- First [01:20:18] try [01:20:18] Abhinandan: to deconstruct Jhelum to Rhine. What [01:20:20] Manisha : would this be? She's now from Jammu, she went to Germany. Oh. [01:20:23] Abhinandan: Must be from Jammu to, oh, got [01:20:25] Manisha : it.[01:20:25] Manisha : To Germany. Go from Jammu [01:20:26] Abhinandan: to... I was trying to play with the words 'cause many of our subscribers [01:20:30] write and the, you have to play with the word to understand what the context is. Person [01:20:33] Manisha : went from Jammu to- [01:20:34] Abhinandan: I often get it, like, two days later. I'll just, okay. [01:20:37] Manisha : Although Jhelum, I see it as Jammu, but does it flow through any other state?[01:20:41] Rinchen : Jhelum [01:20:43] Abhinandan: doesn't. I don't know. Jammu, '[01:20:43] Manisha : cause Jammu only. Punjab, doesn't it? Yeah. Tell us. Jhelum flows from Punjab. So it can be that also. [01:20:49] Abhinandan: Mm. But- So maybe [01:20:49] Manisha : Punjab to Germany. Yeah, and Rhine also we have to see now [01:20:54] Rinchen : where all it flows. [01:20:54] Manisha : Rhine- But, but country is fine. So India to Germany, okay. Right. That's... North India to[01:21:00] [01:21:02] Jayashree : Germany. Let's say Asia to Europe. The broad spectrum of like... [01:21:03] Manisha : Long time subscriber, first time writer. One reason I keep returning to Haftaa is that beneath the weekly headlines, there's always a larger question. What kind of a country are we becoming? Whether a discussion about jobs, inequality, institutions, media freedom, the environment, or social harmony, the concern often feels the same.[01:21:19] Manisha : A nation can survive disagreement. What becomes difficult is when facts matter less, institutions impire- inspire less trust, and long-term thinking gives way to short-term gains. [01:21:30] A special thanks to Abhinandan. I don't really do role models, but I admire his curiosity, irreverence, and ability to laugh at both power and himself.[01:21:37] Manisha : The fact that he seems uninterested in being put on a pedestal makes him even more interesting. [01:21:41] Abhinandan: Yeah, Jhelum to Rhine , [01:21:47] Manisha : Manisha's independent thinking, Shardul's wit, Anand's calm, legal mind, and Raman's insight make every episode richer. Please keep asking difficult questions. They're becoming increasingly valuable.[01:21:58] Abhinandan: Also, Jhelum to Rhine, we have a [01:22:00] new regular on our podcast now. [01:22:02] Rinchen : Oh. [01:22:02] Manisha : Rinchin. [01:22:03] Abhinandan: In your next email, we expect some descriptor of him [01:22:07] Rinchen : as well. No, I'm [01:22:08] Manisha : okay. Jiten says, "In last week's Ha- in this week's Haftaa, Manisha read out a subscriber's complaint regarding playing videos on News Laundry app. I am sharing a solution.[01:22:17] Manisha : S- I send the link for the video from News Laundry app to myself, and then open the link to go to YouTube and watch it. You may recommend this if suitable." So from app to- Thank you, Jiten. So [01:22:29] Abhinandan: [01:22:30] Jiten's solution- Yeah ... is Send the link from the video- From the app to yourself ... to yourself, and then open the link and go to [01:22:39] Jayashree : YouTube.[01:22:39] Jayashree : What a [01:22:40] Manisha : hack. [01:22:41] Abhinandan: It is a good hack. [01:22:43] Manisha : It is. Ishan Desai says, "Hello. My question is for Abhinandan. None of your predictions about what would happen to CJP and its founder, Abhijit, after he returned to India proved true. In fact, the very opposite happened. He's free conducting protests across the nation. Were you surprised?[01:22:55] Manisha : At the same time, there seems to be no action or engagement from the government. What do you think is the [01:23:00] government's strategy towards CJP? Thanks, and keep up the great work." [01:23:03] Abhinandan: Ishan, I think inevitably that's what will happen. It's just that, till when will they push the boundary? 'Cause, I mean, I'm ... I, I don't know this young man personally, so I don't know what his temperament is, but I'm guessing if he's come this far, he will have a temperament of combat.[01:23:23] Abhinandan: And if you're dealing with a combatant, in how the word is described, there's an [01:23:30] inevitability that you keep pushing what your demands are. Like, I really don't know why he wound up at 4:00 or 5:00 or whatever it was. Uh, my guess is next time he won't, and that screenplay will play out. Part of that screenplay did play out.[01:23:45] Abhinandan: The «Cockroach, shoo, shoo» [01:23:47] Manisha : the cockroach casualties. Yeah, but then the Delhi Police acted very well. Yeah. Quickly picked them and- [01:23:50] Abhinandan: So yeah [01:23:53] Manisha : Prakash Iyer says, "Listening to the panel being a bit skeptical about a post-Modi BJP, I was reminded about 2009, [01:24:00] 2013 time when there was similar skepticism about BJP under Modi.[01:24:04] Manisha : A moderate face like Vajpayee had to manage a coalition. How can a polarizing Modi do it? Modi is even more decisive. Has he proven himself outside Gujarat? Forget 272, he won't even win what NDA did, and so on. The infamous Chaiwala comment by Mani Shankar Aiyar. Most of the media had only polite versions of what to say about Modi.[01:24:22] Manisha : There's a bit of déjà vu as to how currently the panel is equally skeptical about Amit Shah, Yogi, et al. Maybe 10, [01:24:30] 15 years later, we will be having the same discussion with the same skepticism again. Probably not a bad idea to look back at what odds today's victors faced." Hmm. [01:24:40] Abhinandan: Right. Good point. Possible.[01:24:43] Manisha : Next is all app grievances- All app [01:24:46] Abhinandan: grievances ... that which I will forward to our- Prakash Iyer is very angry. Well, not that angry. Varsha is upset as well. [01:24:52] Manisha : Fully ruined the podcast [01:24:54] Abhinandan: experience. Mohsin is not happy either. So like I said, Mohsin, uh, Prakash [01:25:00] and Varsha, we have pushed out a fix. It is right now under review in the iOS ecosystem, and we have tested it In whatever that word is.[01:25:13] Abhinandan: One is on actual devices and one is that simulation that you have testing, and bugs seem to have b- been fixed. Hopefully by the time this podcast goes up you would have updated it. We're really sorry about this. We'll make sure that we keep a sharp [01:25:27] Manisha : Yeah, this week we'll really see [01:25:30] te- we should test it out ourselves because a lot of the complaints are basically that when we play Haftah something else starts playing.[01:25:36] Abhinandan: Mm, yeah. [01:25:37] Manisha : So it's Awful & Awesome or it's Tipani or Charcha or whatever. [01:25:40] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:25:42] Manisha : Great. That's a wrap. [01:25:44] Abhinandan: Right. With that, let's get the recommendations for the week. Let's start with our guest, not guest. Chief [01:25:49] Jayashree : guest. Chief chief guest. Since [01:25:51] Abhinandan: it's the title [01:25:53] Jayashree : I will- [01:25:53] Abhinandan: Right. [01:25:55] Jayashree : Yeah, I have a bunch of recommendations, mostly because I've been reading and watching a lot of stuff the last [01:26:00] two months, and every time I watch things or read things now I'm like, "Damn it, I can't recommend it on Haftah."[01:26:04] Jayashree : So this is my chance to make up for it. So first two essays. One was a super piece in The Baffler on yoga and Israel, how, um, they achieve this so-called peace within the body in the midst of being a colonizer state. It's a bit of a tongue in cheek piece. I don't agree with all of it, but it's very interesting.[01:26:23] Jayashree : It's called Warrior Pose. Second is a very heartbreaking essay in Mondo Weiss by a Palestinian man, [01:26:30] man who lost his home, like so many others, to settlers, and yet he says what he and children like him were constantly told were that the settlers taking over their houses was always secondary to the language they used to describe them.[01:26:43] Jayashree : The idea of feeding into antisemitic rhetoric was something that was drilled into his head. So he says... So yeah, so this is a great essay. You must read it. It's titled Jewish Settlers Stole My House: It's Not My Fault They're Jewish. Third is this piece in Current Affairs. So I used to really like Jimmy [01:27:00] Fallon because he got a lot of celebrities on his show.[01:27:02] Jayashree : I thought it was really fun. He would do all those lip sync karaoke battle type things. But also, I mean, it is quite telling that when Donald Trump called for the firing of almost all other late night hosts, like Colbert and Kimmel and whatever, he excluded Fallon from his list because even Donald Trump recognizes there is nothing about Jimmy Fall-Fallon's empty banality that could be anything close to a threat.[01:27:25] Jayashree : So this is an essay called The Banal Horror of Jimmy Fallon. [01:27:30] [01:27:30] Abhinandan: I must read this 'cause I completely agree. I may not have updated. [01:27:33] Jayashree : Please. Yeah. I've, [01:27:34] Abhinandan: I've always found him such a completely shitty late night host. I mean- [01:27:38] Jayashree : Yes, and those dead eyes, that sort of canned laughter that he just brings out. It's just, he's a very unengaging- And [01:27:44] Abhinandan: nothing really smart or clever.[01:27:46] Abhinandan: He just dances. Yeah. He'll sing. I mean, I guess he's a good- Yeah ... dancer or singer. I don't know. [01:27:51] Jayashree : But- Not even, I feel. Like, not even good enough to really carry it. Yeah. So yeah, you should read this specifically. Then a book that I really enjoyed. It's [01:28:00] fiction, it's very short. It's about 40 women who are trapped deep underground in a cage.[01:28:04] Jayashree : You don't know why they're there. You don't know how they got there. They've been there for decades. They don't remember life before it. One day, suddenly the cage opens, they leave. So it's slightly dystopian, slightly strange, but it is a beautiful short book called I Who Have Never Known Men. It's by Jacqueline Harpman.[01:28:21] Manisha : Hmm, [01:28:21] Jayashree : sounds interesting. And sorry, but yes, one last recommendation, which is I'm currently reading a book, so unless the last 20% is shit, in which case please don't read it. But the [01:28:30] first 80% has been superb. So it's about in the near future when even the smallest of appliances are sentient. A young vacuum cleaner sets out to sort of save the world because the world is run by this omnipresent grid, which monitors every device in every household.[01:28:47] Jayashree : But she and her friends and some friendly humans are gonna do some shit. And sounds like a child's novel, it's not, but it's called The Infinite Sadness of Small Appliances by Glen Dixon. So, yeah. [01:28:58] Manisha : How are you picking your [01:29:00] books? Yeah. So interesting. [01:29:02] Jayashree : They come to me in a dream. Yeah. [01:29:03] Manisha : The last one sounds really fun.[01:29:05] Jayashree : I'm unemployed, guys. This is what I do now for a living, [01:29:08] Manisha : so. I wanna see the movie. Yeah. I wanna see a movie made on it. [01:29:10] Jayashree : Yeah. What? It's very, very cute. [01:29:12] Manisha : What's the title? The Small ... [01:29:14] Jayashree : The Infinite Sadness- Ah, Infinite Sadness ... of Small Appliances. [01:29:18] Abhinandan: Haanji, Manisha, your recos. [01:29:20] Manisha : Not as eclectic as Jayashree's. One, uh, Foreign Affairs article on how China is pulling up the ladder behind it, and their export strategy will actually [01:29:30] leave countries poorer.[01:29:30] Manisha : It's by Arvind Subramanian and Soumitra Chatterjee. So all of us dreaming of beating China should read it. Uh, I think Aakar Patel's piece definitely. Yeah. It's a research paper, actually. It's not even a piece. Uh, so if you're a journalist listening to this podcast or if you're in the media, you must read it.[01:29:46] Manisha : He's also spoken to media bosses I think, and that's very, very interesting. And it's basically a research paper that we turned into a- an article, so it has a lot packed in it. So anyone interested in media, anyone in [01:30:00] the media business must read it like an academic paper [01:30:04] Abhinandan: Anand, sir [01:30:05] Anand: Actually, I have, uh, I've been l-losing patience with reading, means the usual humanities stuff like news, uh, means literature and newspapers, I think they're[01:30:19] Anand: Uh, so I, what I'm recommending is an activity and, uh, two books also. I have, uh, gone back to reading physics- Hmm ... school physics. So, mm, [01:30:30] I, mm, uh, and, uh, the more I read it, I curse myself for not pursuing ph-physics in, later in my university, uh, for very, I think, cowardice reasons. Uh, so two books I am, uh, reading is, uh-[01:30:51] Anand: "Fundamentals of Physics" by Halliday Resnik. It's a class 12 level text, and I am trying to, mm, [01:31:00] relate it to a 2021, uh, astrophysics books, "The End of Everything" by, mm, Katie Mack. So it says that, uh, and it gives me a lot of satisfaction. It, uh, explores lot of po- scenarios of how the whole universe will end.[01:31:19] Anand: Hmm. So, mm, and it, uh, examines models, different models, Big Rip, uh, and other models al- uh, [01:31:30] so, uh, dead heat, oth- other things. So that how not only Earth or sun, the whole universe, what are the scenarios of, uh, it ending it, uh, this far, that far. And I, uh, try to relate the fundamentals of physics, the class 12 level text by Halliday Resnik, it's a classic textbook of physics, to the things that I was not understanding this book because of I had [01:32:00] forgotten a lot of things.[01:32:02] Anand: So I read this book to get some hang of what this man is ta- talking about in this book. So, uh, mm, that's it. These are my recommendations. [01:32:13] Rinchen : Uh, Sridhar, uh, a movie and an essay and a book. So movie is "Obsession," which is- [01:32:20] Abhinandan: Oh, damn, that's mine as well. [01:32:22] Rinchen : Oh, sorry. [01:32:22] Abhinandan: No, you don't need [01:32:23] Rinchen : to apologize. No, so I mean, uh, inc- I mean, I've, it's been a long- Is it [01:32:27] Manisha : a horror movie?[01:32:28] Rinchen : It's a horror film, but it's- [01:32:28] Manisha : Like, will it leave you [01:32:30] scared? [01:32:30] Abhinandan: No, that's the thing. I had this discussion Often Awesome. You can watch the Often Awesome and listen to the expert- ... the experts, the elite of, of, uh, Anand was would say, um, Rajshri and me So when you say horror , you know we use the word horror at our age very loosely.[01:32:48] Manisha : Hmm. [01:32:48] Abhinandan: Will it scare you? [01:32:49] Manisha : Huh. [01:32:50] Abhinandan: I asked Jasvi, when is the last time you got scared in a film? When, I'm asking you, when did you get scared in a film last? [01:32:54] Manisha : Like, that Evil Dead movies. [01:32:56] Abhinandan: When did you watch it? [01:32:57] Manisha : In school, and then I never watched- That's what I'm saying ... in college. [01:33:00] And then I never watched- What I'm saying is-[01:33:00] Manisha : another horror movie because it really left me scared ... [01:33:02] Abhinandan: yeah, but if you watch horrors, they will not scare you anymore, but they w- you will like them. It's thrilling. Yeah. So I don't think people our age should be- Ex- should expect to get scared, then you'll all be disappointed. But it's a fantastic film. No, [01:33:15] Manisha : no, but I'm worried because I will get very scared.[01:33:17] Abhinandan: You won't get scared. [01:33:18] Jayashree : Yeah, I have one question. See, I get scared for everything. Are there jump scares? 'Cause jump scares- Yeah [01:33:23] Abhinandan: Every horror will have jump scares- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... but that [01:33:25] Jayashree : is- So does this one- But it's not tacky ... does this one have jump scares? [01:33:27] Abhinandan: Yeah, but it's good. Yeah They're good jump [01:33:30] scares.[01:33:30] Abhinandan: And fantastic jumps. They're not shitty ones. They're, they're [01:33:30] Rinchen : good for jump [01:33:30] Abhinandan: scares. Then, yeah. I [01:33:31] Manisha : just don't wanna feel scared that there's something under my bed. I- No, you won't ... you know, to switch on lights at night and- So then I can't go to the bathroom at night Yeah, exactly. All that I don't wanna [01:33:38] Rinchen : feel.[01:33:38] Rinchen : No, no. But the thing is, uh, after I watched it, a friend of mine told me that our genius censor board cut out two- Yeah ... scenes from the movie that will, that literally completely changes the way, uh- Yeah ... you perceive what happens at the end. Yeah. Really? Which is [01:33:53] Abhinandan: insane. Yeah. [01:33:54] Rinchen : And so I'm, I'm gonna watch this movie again- Again[01:33:57] Rinchen : on VPN and maybe try to find this- [01:33:59] Abhinandan: What a [01:34:00] fantastic- ... boost, boost it ... made on a budget of, I think- Yeah ... uh, less than 100,000, se- 8- sorry, $800,000, less than a million. Mm. Wow. And it has recovered already about 300 million. [01:34:12] Rinchen : Mm. [01:34:13] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:34:14] Rinchen : Incredible. So- I'll watch [01:34:14] Jayashree : it in daytime. [01:34:15] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:34:16] Rinchen : Uh, the second is, uh, my second recommendation is an essay by this, uh, person called David Oaks, O-A-K-S, which is Why China Got Rich and India Didn't: Uh, The Human Roots of the [01:34:30] Sino-Indian Divergence.[01:34:31] Rinchen : It's a really interesting piece, a long essay. Uh- [01:34:33] Abhinandan: Someone had recommended this earlier also here- Had someone [01:34:36] Rinchen : recommended? ... [01:34:36] Abhinandan: or maybe not on Half The, but I, I was just recommending it- Yeah ... as someone saying it's an excellent [01:34:40] Rinchen : essay. Excellent essay, um, which basically- Mm ... sort of breaks down why so in, in the, when China got its independence, '49, when we earned, '47.[01:34:47] Rinchen : And even up until the '80s, um, they're sort of very similar sort of economically per capita, et cetera, and all of that. But then how China sort of just accelerated. And the acceleration, they say, is not because [01:35:00] that China embraced, uh, market sort of economics. It's that they actually brutally reoriented their entire society with, of course, he doesn't say you should do it-[01:35:10] Rinchen : but he says this is how they did it. He [01:35:12] Abhinandan: analyzed it, doesn't justify it. [01:35:13] Rinchen : Yeah. So whereas we maintained- [01:35:14] Abhinandan: Which is what often Anand does. He analyzes stuff, and our audience thinks he's justifying [01:35:18] Rinchen : it. Yeah. Big difference. Which is so, whereas we maintained our traditional social orders, we didn't do the kind of land distribution, uh, we didn't have a reckoning with the caste system.[01:35:26] Rinchen : So all these very interesting points he raises in his this thing, [01:35:30] whereas the Chinese did. Shining. So it's, it's a essay I would really recommend. It was published, uh, earlier this month only, on June 3rd. That is one. And finally, uh, I, someone just, uh, gifted me this book, uh, Empire of AI, a book by Karen Hao- Yeah[01:35:45] Rinchen : which I've, I've always wanted to read for a long time, but it was too expensive on, on Amazon. But some- uh, someone gave me a copy of this, and, uh, yeah, it's something, uh, it's a, it's, it's a brilliant sort of, uh, I mean, I've just started reading it, but I'm already [01:36:00] hooked. And it's a, basically it's a history of OpenAI.[01:36:03] Rinchen : Yeah, [01:36:03] Manisha : yeah. [01:36:04] Rinchen : And it's sort of- [01:36:04] Manisha : It's mostly one of those- [01:36:05] Rinchen : And the thing, and the interesting bit is she, she was with these- Silicon Valley tech bros in universities. So she knows who these people are before they became big. [01:36:13] Rinchen : Mm. [01:36:14] Rinchen : So sh- and, and, and then she sort of became a journalist later on. So that, that sort of insight I think is super valuable.[01:36:21] Rinchen : That, you know, we put these te- these Sam Altman type figures and all, you know, on a pedestal and all of that. Like, these are just ... I knew these people in my dorm, like - [01:36:30] Right ... so, so I think that sort of breakdown I thought was super interesting. Yeah, these three. [01:36:34] Abhinandan: So I have, again, three, uh, recommendations. One was Obsession.[01:36:39] Abhinandan: Uh, and also, of course, the curse of being in production is whenever you watch a film, at least whenever I watch a film, I'm always calculating the budget based on the set. [01:36:48] Rinchen : Mm. [01:36:49] Abhinandan: What I find fascinating about this is four characters- [01:36:51] Rinchen : Yeah ... [01:36:52] Abhinandan: five locations. Yeah. And not expensive locations. Yeah. They're very- [01:36:55] Rinchen : Very ordinary[01:36:57] Abhinandan: if you have a tight screenplay, you don't [01:37:00] fucking need that budget and all that. Yeah. It is just your, your pre-production, your writing is smart, and I think this kind of revisits that. I think a lot more Indian filmmakers should also see that with just five characters and five locations, you can make a fantastic film.[01:37:15] Abhinandan: The s- other two things that I want to highly recommend, uh, are sporting events. The NBA is back, baby. This is the final I watched after a long time. [01:37:26] Rinchen : Mm. [01:37:26] Abhinandan: Do watch the reruns, especially game three- Mm ... which was [01:37:30] fantastic. Uh, I had stopped watching the NBA because it's become such a fucking shit show, but hopefully this kind of excitement can stay.[01:37:37] Abhinandan: Also, this has been the best first round World Cup ever that I have watched. Yeah. [01:37:41] Rinchen : It's fantastic. [01:37:42] Abhinandan: Otherwise, the first round is full of shitty matches. This has had the most amazing ... Even the draws are fantastic. Spain versus- [01:37:49] Rinchen : Uh, Cape [01:37:50] Abhinandan: Verde ... Cape Verde, which I did not know was a country. Uh, amazing. And finally, an excellent piece of investigation by Reporters Collective- Yeah[01:37:59] Abhinandan: [01:38:00] which I quoted earlier in the show. Uh, you must read it, and please support Reporters Collective. It is on Adani getting, Adani Group sweeps all coal power tenders from BJP states set to earn 3.27 lakh crore over 25 years. This is by Sriganesh Jalihal. With that, I would like to thank all of us, but especially I would like to thank Jayashree Arunachalam.[01:38:22] Song : Thank you. [01:38:23] Abhinandan: Jayashree, who is now on her last Hafta. We are just saying this so that we can celebrate. We'll be back, Jayashree. [01:38:30] Oh. Because we did not do it last time. My last Hafta. Last Hafta, last Hafta. Post-production may add, post-production. And, uh- That was [01:38:37] Jayashree : like fireworks exploding on the screen. [01:38:39] Abhinandan: Yeah.[01:38:40] Abhinandan: Fireworks on the screen. That's what we want. And, uh, so thank you, Jayashree. Thank you. Your presence on Hafta is always wonderfully interesting, exciting, and, uh, calming, all three, if you can imagine. The king supreme. Yes. And, uh, thank you Manisha Pandey. Thank [01:38:56] Manisha : you. [01:38:56] Abhinandan: Thank you Anand Vardhan. Thank you. Thank you Rigzin Norbu.[01:38:59] Abhinandan: [01:39:00] Thank you. Thank you to our wonderful sound recordist, Anil. Thank you to Saurabh, who I saw. I don't know if he's still here. And our producer, Amit. Thank you to all of you who have been supporting us, subscribing. Do continue patronizing us, and, uh, have a fantastic week, and we will meet you- Can [01:39:15] Manisha : you patronize us?[01:39:16] Manisha : Isn't that like a negative thing? Yes. Do continue to be patrons. Do continue to be patrons. Don't patronize us. [01:39:22] Abhinandan: Bloody English ... [01:39:24] Manisha : We didn't, [01:39:25] Jayashree : we didn't correct them. That would've been great. [01:39:29] Manisha : Do continue patronizing us. [01:39:29] Abhinandan: You, you, you get the message. Yeah. So [01:39:30] that's why you think it's a good thing. [01:39:32] Manisha : Oh. That's why [01:39:35] Abhinandan: I patronize [01:39:36] Manisha : everyone.[01:39:37] Manisha : Mystery solved. [01:39:40] Song : What's the mystery? [01:39:41] Abhinandan: That's why I patronize everybody. Why he's patronizing. Because he- Because I think it's a good thing. Okay. So on that wonderful note, we leave you with this song. This week's song has been selected by our special guest, Jayashree Arunachalam. Jayashree. [01:39:52] Jayashree : Oh my God. [01:39:52] Abhinandan: Finally.[01:39:52] Abhinandan: So you can think of a nice appropriate song for the discussion and send it to [01:39:56] Jayashree : Amit. I'm gonna send trash- [01:39:58] Abhinandan: Lovely ... [01:39:58] Jayashree : and he will be forced to use it. [01:40:00] [01:40:01] Abhinandan: All right, bye. Thank you. Have fun.[01:40:17] Song : சப் முடிஞ்ச [01:40:18] Song : நல்ல காலத்து மேட்டில் என்ன கிழிச்சு[01:40:30] [01:40:49] Manisha : Thank you for your subscription. You're changing the world by changing the way news is funded. For the smoothest News Laundry experience, download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our [01:41:00] paywall podcasts. And you'll also get access to all free News Laundry shows. Keep us ad-free and subscriber-funded.[01:41:07] Manisha : Help us grow. Tell people who listen to you to pay to keep news free. Subscribe to News Laundry. Keep journalism independent

2026/6/20

Awful and Awesome Ep 410: Obsession and Raakh

The pop culture podcast that isn’t afraid to pop the bubble.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-06-18/0r5cgv9p/ANA-1.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutouts of Abhinandan and Rajyasree in the latest episode of The Awful and Awesome with stills from the movie Obsession in the background." referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>Rajyasree: In this week’s good news, there is a film that is not praising Modi-ji or bashing Pakistan, which is being released, we were told. Abhinandan: Based on true events. Rajyasree: Ya, it's based on true events, though. Abhinandan: In bad news, it is doing something that the other films are doing, which is bashing Muslims. Rajyasree: But the good news is that the Muslim in question is my favourite, Salman Khan. Abhinandan: But in bad news, none of the actors of the film seem to know that it was gonna show Salman in a bad light.  Rajyasree: But in good news, we don’t know what will happen now. Abhinandan: But in strange news, Salman says his permission was not taken to make this film.Rajyasree: But it could be fiction, they should just say it’s pure fiction. Why does he think Kala Hiran is about him? I would’ve said, “Sir, it is not about you.” Abhinandan: It could be about any Kala Hiran. Am I Kala or a Hiran? It could be based on you. This and a whole lot of awful and awesome in this special episode where Abhinandan and Rajyasree discuss Obsession and Raakh.<iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ec24dba84c3fb5c3f29dd3a/6a33ddcfc17f3028763e5273" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe> <figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/w78pbHSZUJM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w78pbHSZUJM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>Timecodes0:00 - World Cup updates3:00 News6:46 - Obsession 21:10 - Letters 28:12 - Raakh 36:19- Letters Click <ins><a href="https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.newslaundry.android.app">here</a></ins> to download the Newslaundry app on Android. And <ins><a href="https://apps.apple.com/in/app/newslaundry/id1609227019?mt=8">here</a></ins> for iOS.Produced and edited by Ashish Anand and Hassan Bilal. Recorded by Anil Kumar. Awful and Awesome Ep 409: The Boys, and Kartavya

2026/6/18

Where Priyank vs RSS in Karnataka is headed

We talk about Priyank Kharge’s offensive against the RSS, as well as what the TN BJP told Rajinikanth about Annamalai.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-06-16/dfw62gre/thenewsminute2026-06-16m5ia6v63PT2606261200.jpg.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutouts of Mohan Bhagwat and Priyank Kharge." referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>Welcome to this week’s Powertrip, a political newsletter curated exclusively for subscribers of The News Minute and Newslaundry. This week’s edition is by Dhanya Rajendran, Shabbir Ahmed, Anisha Sheth and Pooja Prasanna.This week, we tell you why Karnataka Home Minister Priyank Kharge has started an offensive against the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and what he will probably do in the future. Priyank has been consistently asking the RSS for its registration details. Karnataka, we have learnt, is also looking at whether they can emulate Tamil Nadu in clipping the Governor’s wings.In Tamil Nadu, the BJP is worried. And their mission is to convince Rajinikanth that he must not join hands with Annamalai. A BJP delegation met the superstar and we bring you the inside story of what they told the actor.  Powertrip is a newsletter that senior political reporters of TNM put together every week.<iframe class="trinity-player trinity-iframe" src="https://trinitymedia.ai/player/trinity-i/2900013399/?pageURL=https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/17/where-priyank-vs-rss-in-karnataka-is-headed&readContentType=URL" style="border: 0; width: 100% !important; height: 90px !important" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe> <h2>Inside Track</h2><h4>Exclusive stories, for your eyes only</h4><h3>RSS versus Congress escalates in Karnataka</h3>Karnataka Home Minister Priyank Kharge has made it clear that he is going to keep the RSS on its toes. After a barrage of sound bites asking the RSS why it is not registered as an organisation, Priyank went ahead and wrote to RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat asking for details of its registration.Priyank’s current tiff with the RSS started in 2025 when the organisation announced a march across Karnataka as part of its celebrations. Priyank objected to the march in Chittapur, which is his constituency. Eventually, the matter went to court, and the RSS secured permission from the court.The RSS not registering itself as an organisation has been criticised for decades, but the RSS has maintained that it is recognised as a body of individuals and that is enough.So what is Priyank Kharge’s game plan? What we have learnt is that he will write a couple more times to the RSS raising the same questions about their registration and if the RSS still does not explain why it is not registered as an organisation, then as Home Minister of the state, he is most likely going to oppose public events by the RSS.We have also learnt that Chief Minister DK Shivakumar will not interfere with the campaign Priyank is running against the RSS as long as he gets support for his Bengaluru plans.Meanwhile, there is also pressure on other Congress governments, such as in Kerala, to take similar action against the RSS or insist that it register as an organisation.The second front is unfolding in higher education. The controversy was triggered after several Vice-Chancellors attended a three-day RSS programme, Ekatma Manava Darshan, hosted at Karnataka State Open University (KSOU) in March. At the time, Congress MLC Ramesh Babu raised the issue in the Legislative Council, following which the then Higher Education Minister issued notices to the Vice-Chancellors who participated and sought the Governor's intervention.What is now generating even greater interest is a proposal being discussed within sections of the Congress to emulate Tamil Nadu's approach to Vice-Chancellor appointments. Tamil Nadu amended the laws governing its state universities to shift the power of appointing Vice-Chancellors from the Governor, acting as Chancellor, to the State Government. Karnataka has already taken a step in that direction in one institution. The state amended the Karnataka State Rural Development and Panchayat Raj University Act to replace the Governor with the Chief Minister as Chancellor of the university. This was under Priyank’s ministry too. Since the Chancellor appoints the Vice-Chancellor, the amendment effectively transferred that power from Raj Bhavan to the state government. The question now being discussed in political circles is whether Karnataka will attempt a broader restructuring of university governance along similar lines. <h3>Annamalai’s exit, BJP reaches out to Rajinikanth </h3>After IPS officer-turned-politician and former Tamil Nadu BJP chief K Annamalai exited the BJP, the party has witnessed a spate of resignations at various levels. This has left the Tamil Nadu BJP concerned, and the party is now in damage-control mode.Though the party was prepared to face the fallout of Annamalai’s exit, the perception created by him that his political movement, ‘We The Leaders’, has the blessings of Superstar Rajinikanth has not gone down well with the BJP high command.In this backdrop, Tamil Nadu BJP in-charge Arvind Menon and Tamil Nadu BJP President Nainar Nagendran met Rajinikanth at his residence on Tuesday, June 16. Though the official reason for the meeting was described as a courtesy call and the handing over of books highlighting Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s achievements over the past 12 years, a large part of the discussion reportedly revolved around Annamalai and his exit from the BJP. This was the BJP’s attempt to inform Rajinikanth that Annamalai was not the injured party, but was a leader who didn’t do well despite all kinds of opportunities provided. Sources told TNM that both Arvind Menon and Nainar Nagendran briefed Rajinikanth about Annamalai’s performance in the party and the various opportunities presented to him to grow the BJP in Tamil Nadu.Sources said Arvind Menon also explained the circumstances that led to Annamalai’s departure from the BJP and explained how senior party leaders were moved out of Tamil Nadu to elevate his stature and provide him with the space to run the party in the state.The leaders also informed Rajinikanth about the ‘War Room’ set up for Annamalai and said that funds more than Rs 100 crore were spent to ensure the party’s growth in Tamil Nadu by organising several events projecting Annamalai as the central figure. These included various programmes under the ‘En Mann, En Makkal’ yatra undertaken by Annamalai across the state.The leaders also expressed concern that Rajinikanth’s name was being misused by Annamalai’s followers to create the impression that his new movement had the backing of the superstar.<h2>Zero Hour</h2><h4>A political story of public importance</h4><h3><a href="https://scroll.in/article/1093546/indias-food-regulator-flagged-over-160-misleading-claims-years-later-120-are-still-around">India’s food regulator flagged over 160 misleading claims. Years later, 120 are still around</a></h3>India’s food regulator flagged over 160 misleading claims. Years later, 120 are still around.<h2>Powermoves</h2><h5>Top 5 political stories</h5><ol><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/tamil-nadu/woman-who-accused-tvk-functionaries-of-rape-evicted-from-her-house-seeks-action-against-mla">Woman who accused TVK functionaries of rape evicted from her house, seeks action against MLA</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/karnataka/why-the-dks-led-congress-in-karnataka-cannot-save-its-own-voters-from-the-sir">Why the DKS-led Congress in Karnataka cannot save its own voters from the SIR</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/kerala/kerala-cm-wants-vcs-to-apologise-over-rss-event-bjp-says-he-is-appeasing-jamaat">Kerala CM wants VCs to apologise over RSS event; BJP says he is appeasing Jamaat</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/andhra-pradesh/complaint-against-actor-prakash-raj-in-tirupati-court-for-hurting-religious-sentiments">Complaint against actor Prakash Raj in Tirupati court for hurting religious sentiments</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/telangana/over-400-people-turn-up-for-hyderabad-cjp-protest-angry-with-corruption-in-education">Over 400 people turn up for Hyderabad CJP protest, angry with corruption in education</a></ins></li></ol>

2026/6/17

Ken-Betwa project: Drying a river, sacrificing a tiger reserve | Interview with Amit Bhatnagar

The government claims this project will deliver water to drought-hit areas of Bundelkhand. Meanwhile, local residents affected by the project are concerned about compensation and rehabilitation.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-06-16/rsz79wte/full-interviewai-.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutouts of Atul Chaurasia and Amit Bhatnagar " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/1hEMu0KGXnU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hEMu0KGXnU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>The Ken-Betwa Link project is a first-of-its-kind initiative to connect two rivers – one in which the Prime Minister himself is taking a keen interest.The Ken flows through Madhya Pradesh, while the Betwa flows through Uttar Pradesh. The plan involves constructing dams on both rivers and creating a new canal to serve the vast region between them, which suffers from chronic water scarcity.While the government claims the project will deliver water to drought-hit areas of Bundelkhand, boost agriculture, and bring greenery, local residents and tribal communities are worried about their land, forests, and livelihoods. They say the compensation being offered is meagre and that the government has not addressed the issue of rehabilitation.The project has also seen unique and novel forms of protest. Social activist Amit Bhatnagar is spearheading the villagers’ struggle.In this interview, we sought to understand the hardships faced by those affected by the project and their efforts to save their land and forests.Bhatnagar argues that the government launched this project in one of the country’s hottest regions without up-to-date data. He notes that while it is termed a “river-linking project”, in reality only water from the Ken will be diverted to the Betwa – water from the Betwa will not flow into the Ken. This, he warns, poses a threat of the Ken River drying up completely.He adds that the government and concerned officials are unwilling to engage in dialogue with local people, and that this river-linking project – as it appears on paper – tells a completely different story on the ground.Watch this full conversation with Amit Bhatnagar.Living under notice: Fear and uncertainty along the Yamuna in Delhi

2026/6/16

Bengaluru market vendors hired to train AI robots that could replace them

Instawork, a San Francisco-based staffing company, is paying Bengaluru market vendors to wear head-mounted cameras and record their work to train AI robots. The same project also has similar roles based out of private Airbnbs in the city.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-06-16/4r23msaq/thenewsminute2026-06-14qyjstp1xAIBengaluru.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="A market vendor in Bengaluru is wearing a camera attached to his phone, which is recording what he's doing. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/yT-iu1kovKg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT-iu1kovKg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>On a Tuesday morning in Bengaluru’s New Thippasandra market, Nagraj is doing what he does every day. The owner of a small grocery shop, he is sorting stock, attending to customers, keeping his shop in order. The only thing different today is what he’s wearing on his head.A small camera, fitted into a headband, sits just above his forehead. It records everything – his hands reaching for goods, customers passing money across the counter – the ordinary choreography of a day’s work. Somewhere, on a server he has never seen, in a format he cannot read, that footage is being used to teach a machine.“They gave us the cameras so a robot can learn what humans do,” Nagraj told TNM. “All I had to do was my regular work while wearing the camera.”He has been doing this for five days. He had been paid for two days by then.New Thippasandra market in east Bengaluru is not the kind of place that usually figures in conversations about artificial intelligence. It is a dense, working market housing vegetable vendors, tailors, cloth shop owners, the everyday commerce of a city neighbourhood. But in May, representatives from a company called Instawork began moving through its lanes, approaching workers with an unusual proposition.Wear this camera while you work. Do what you normally do. We will pay you for your time.Workers told TNM that Instawork’s representatives explained the project verbally, distributed the equipment — iPhones fitted on headbands and chargers — and they agreed. No contract was signed. Nothing was put in writing. The arrangement, as far as most workers here understand it, rests entirely on a spoken agreement made one morning in the busy market.Instawork is a San Francisco-based company founded in 2015. Its original business was digital staffing, with an app-based platform matching hourly workers with short-term shifts. It now has over seven million workers in its network and has raised more than USD 160 million from investors including Benchmark, Greylock, and TCV. Its India office is based in Koramangala, Bengaluru.Instawork’s project at New Thippasandra is egocentric data capture, which involves visual information recorded from the wearer’s point of view.An Instawork employee we spoke to said his work begins with identifying suitable locations and occupations where diverse day-to-day activities can be recorded. The project, he told us, is running for three months across multiple cities in India.The end use of the footage, he explained, is to train AI systems, specifically humanoid robots learning to navigate and operate in physical spaces.Lack of contractTo build a robot that can fold a shirt, pick up a tomato without crushing it, or locate a product on a shelf, AI systems need to understand how human hands and eyes work together. That requires training data, millions of hours of first-person footage showing fine motor movement in real-world environments. It is painstaking to collect, difficult to generate artificially and, in places like India, very cheap to obtain.<iframe class="trinity-player trinity-iframe" src="https://trinitymedia.ai/player/trinity-i/2900013399/?pageURL=https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/16/bengaluru-market-vendors-hired-to-train-ai-robots-that-could-replace-them&readContentType=URL" style="border: 0; width: 100% !important; height: 90px !important" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe> The workers at New Thippasandra were told this, in broad terms. They were told that future AI systems need to learn from human movement. They were told their footage would train robots. Several told us they were also told that the robots being trained might eventually do the kind of work they currently do.Sushmitha, a tailor who owns a cloth shop in the market, was among the first to agree to the project. She had been wearing the headband for six to seven days when we spoke to her.“An AI company approached us and asked us to wear the headbands and record,” she said. “They pay us for it anyway, so we agreed.”When asked if the company told her that the robot she is helping train might one day take over her job, she said, “Yes, they have informed us.”And was she okay with that?She paused. “Doesn’t feel okay. But we are getting paid for it now, so we are doing it.”When workers at New Thippasandra first agreed to the programme, the pay was Rs 300 per hour for five hours of work, amounting to Rs 1,500 a day. Within days, that rate began to drop.“Six days ago, they were paying us well. Rs 300 per hour,” Sushmitha said. “They have reduced it now. Others were saying it’s been reduced to Rs 100.”By the time TNM visited, the rate had settled at Rs 200 per hour for most workers, though some reported being told it had dropped further. No worker we spoke to had been informed in advance that rates would change. No written rate was ever agreed upon.The pattern of high initial rates to recruit workers, followed by quiet reductions once enough people have signed on, is familiar from other gig economy platforms. What makes this case distinct is the absence of any written agreement workers can point to. There is no document stating what rate was promised, no terms under which it can be changed, and no formal process for disputes.Clifton Rosario, National Vice President of the All India Central Council of Trade Unions, said, “If you are entering into any kind of arrangement with somebody for services to be rendered, you’ll have to have some kind of a written contract so that the terms and conditions are there on paper and all parties are bound by it,” he said. “But more than that, is there full disclosure? Is it actually informed consent that they’re taking?”On the question of whether workers’ verbal agreement makes the arrangement legitimate, Rosario was categorical. “There’s an important principle in a constitutional democracy, which is that people cannot waive their fundamental rights. A street vendor saying they agreed does not determine the legality or otherwise of such an arrangement.”He went further, invoking Article 23 of the Constitution (right against exploitation) and a <ins><a href="https://indiankanoon.org/doc/496663/">1982 Supreme Court judgement</a></ins>. “Force does not mean physical compulsion. Forced labour, in constitutional law, can also be by virtue of your circumstances. Poverty has been identified by the Supreme Court as one such circumstance. Here also, you look at the price rise, the cost of living, the harassment street vendors face daily, the constant fear of eviction. When somebody comes and gives you a hundred rupees and tells you to do a couple of things, you’ll accept it. That does not make it legitimate.”Data collection roles based out of AirBnbsWhile vendors at New Thippasandra were recruited verbally, paid by the hour, and given no written agreement, Instawork has been hiring for the same programme on LinkedIn. They call it a “high-growth AI data collection project”.A job listing posted by Instawork’s Bengaluru office describes positions for Data Collectors and Annotators at a location in Marathahalli. The role offers a fixed monthly salary of Rs 25,000, structured morning and evening shifts, a dedicated supervisor, trainer, and full training before the first day of work.The work location, the listing states, is “Airbnb / Kitchen Setup."<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-06-16/8jfczp4n/thenewsminute2026-06-14o1q8bmcqInstawork-job-listing-on-LinkedIn.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>Workers in this programme are asked to perform scripted household and kitchen tasks — arranging objects, handling appliances, placing ingredients — while narrating their actions on camera. They follow a prescribed task list, state commands audibly, and repeat the same task for an entire shift.TNM was unable to independently verify the locations of these properties.Instawork’s data collection project advertises for workers on LinkedIn, but does not publicly disclose where recording sessions take place.Clifton said that the implications of unregulated data collection in private spaces go beyond wages and contracts. “The moment you take people into an Airbnb, that becomes a workspace,” he said. “What if there is any kind of sexual harassment that takes place there? Or any other form of exploitation? Then who is responsible?”Who benefitsThe demand for egocentric training data has been building for years inside AI research labs, but 2026 marks a sharp acceleration. A report by investment firm Stellaris Venture Partners estimated that robotics labs will require between 100 million and 1 billion hours of first-person video over the next two to three years. That requirement has spawned an entire industry of data collection companies, many of them operating in India where informal workforces are large, labour costs are low, and regulatory oversight is limited.Several Indian startups have built their entire business around this demand. Humyn AI and FPV Labs are among those creating tailored egocentric datasets for robotics firms. Ishank Gupta of Humyn AI has publicly said that existing data repositories do not meet the needs of robotics labs, making custom collection a priority. Objectways, a data services company with offices in Tamil Nadu, has transitioned its services to include egocentric video collection for embodied AI. Awign runs a network of over 1.5 million gig workers across more than 1,000 cities, capturing over 1,000 hours of 4K first-person footage every day using head-mounted iPhones and GoPros.Instawork’s move into this space is part of that broader shift. Starting as a digital staffing agency, it is now in the business of collecting human expertise, digitising what workers know and feeding it to the machines being built to replace them.What is happening at New Thippasandra has already been quietly taking root across India too.Earlier this year, head-mounted cameras appeared in garment factories in Haryana and Maharashtra. A report by Scroll identified one site as a Gurugram factory operated by Pearl Global Industries, a major apparel manufacturer with operations across 10 countries. A factory in Maharashtra was using headbands belonging to a startup called Egolab.AI, which describes itself as India’s largest first-person POV data aggregator.Instawork’s responseIn response to questions from The News Minute, an Instawork spokesperson said the company’s data collection programme “supports frontier robotics development and deployment with an active population of contributors across multiple markets, including New Thippasandra in Bengaluru.”On pay, the spokesperson said rates “vary based on multiple factors such as time and location” and that “all contributors review the applicable rate and work requirements for each engagement prior to accepting any opportunity”.The workers we spoke to told a different story.Nagraj had not been informed that his pay would be reduced. Sushmitha said the reduction happened without warning. Neither had signed anything that set out what rate they had agreed to or under what conditions it could change.On data rights, the spokesperson said Instawork “provides contributors with a process to withdraw from the programme and request deletion of their data, consistent with applicable law”.None of the workers TNM spoke to were aware that any such process existed.Nagraj will come back tomorrow. He will put on the headband, sort his stock, and attend to his customers. The footage will travel to servers, to models, to machines being trained to do what he does. This report was <ins><a href="http://thenewsminute.com/karnataka/bengaluru-market-vendors-hired-to-train-ai-robots-that-could-replace-them">republished</a></ins> from The News Minute as part of The News Minute-Newslaundry alliance. Read about our partnership <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2023/04/28/newslaundry-the-news-minute-alliance-for-more-public-interest-journalism">here</a></ins> and become a subscriber <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/membership">here</a></ins>.Rs 3,350-cr MoU, 70,000 jobs: A Yogi govt AI investment deal is now under fraud cloudYour favourite viral column might have been written by AI. Now what? ‘Will AI replace me?’: Anxiety grips tech workers amid mass layoffs, slowing recruitment

2026/6/16

Hafta 593: Can the BJP survive without Modi?

The podcast where we discuss the week’s news. <figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-16/egtq656l/HAFTA-NEW.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="New Hafta cartoon featuring cutouts of Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal, and Abhinandan Sekhri. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>This week on Hafta, Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal and Shardool Katyayan are joined by journalist, author and former Amnesty India executive director Aakar Patel.The conversation begins with PM Modi completing 4,399 uninterrupted days in office and what his tenure has meant for Indian politics.On Modi’s political appeal, Aakar argued that Modi occupies a unique position within the BJP that no other leader currently matches. “Modi can’t be replaced. He is sui generis. There is nobody like him. There are many aspects to him that are unique. He is the only person in the BJP who brings in, through his charisma, both the nut job voter who wants the Muslims to be screwed over, plus he has got this sort of aspirational bent to him.”Raman agreed that the party could face a difficult transition after him. “Things change in politics every hour. But yes, with Modi, politics is at a standstill in a way. I think after Modi, I can’t visualise anybody from the BJP winning.” The discussion moved towards Modi’s public persona and his interactions with global leaders. Asked why Modi appears noticeably warmer on the international stage, Aakar said that it stems from a long-standing desire for recognition and validation.Drawing on his experience of meeting Modi during the 2002 Gujarat riots as part of an Editors Guild delegation, Aakar said this need for validation has remained consistent over the years.“He required validation, and I think that extends to the globe. The reason why ANI and the other networks have cut off the audio from his meetings with leaders of the Global North... he is not seen this way with the leaders from Africa, for instance, because that’s not the set of people that he wants validation from.”The panel then talked about political defections and the growing churn within opposition parties. On the rebellion within the Trinamool Congress, Manisha said: “It’s disgusting to see what’s happening with TMC. And this has to be asked. The leader also has to take responsibility for this. Both Mamata Banerjee and Abhishek Banerjee.”All this and more.Hafta letters: <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/preview/story/7ex1PEH8ZtxDD9LskpFqhDASXMzAIzNk6H5SCFqPz4kyjzpY1lPrusVPJHGr1FTc">Hafta letters: CJP’s rise, Sarthak’s inspiring interview, app bugs</a></ins><iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ec3d9497cef7479d2ef4798/6a2cf6ad252d86e8467ec7c8" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oFCDFms9haA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://youtu.be/oFCDFms9haA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>If you want to write to Hafta, <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/podcast-letters">click here</a></ins>. Click <ins><a href="http://newslaundry.com/sena">here</a></ins> to contribute to our Sena project. Check out the<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/store?routeName=NlStore"> Newslaundry store</a></ins> and flaunt your love for independent media. Download the<ins><a href="http://www.newslaundry.com/download-app"> Newslaundry app</a></ins>. Song:  <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUohoYLdALQ&list=RDQUohoYLdALQ&start_radio=1">Azeem-O-Shaan Shahenshah </a></ins>Timecodes00:00:00 - Introductions and announcements00:05:41 - Headlines00:12:42 -  PM Modi longest serving PM  01:07:58 - Aakar’’s recommendations01:09:12 – TMC turmoil & parting thoughts 01:15:40  - Letters 01:23:23 - RecommendationsReferences<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/podcast/lets-talk-about/lets-talk-about-indian-football">Replug : Let’s Talk About: Football</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/04/be-transparent-be-accountable-the-teen-who-shook-indias-education-system">NL Interview with Sarthak Siddhant</a></ins><ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/mmmk">NL -TNM Joint Subscription </a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/05/23/i-started-a-jokenow-i-get-death-threats-abhijeet-dipke-on-indias-cockroach-party">‘I started a joke…now I get death threats’: Cockroach Janata Party founder speaks</a></ins>RecommendationsManisha <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/news/how-old-is-monalisa-bhosle-two-states-many-truths-behind-an-interreligious-marriage">How old is Monalisa Bhosle? Two states & many truths behind an interreligious marriage</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yd1yDZk59k&list=RD6Yd1yDZk59k&start_radio=1">Tashan songs </a></ins>Shardool <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/11/rs-3350-cr-mou-70000-jobs-a-yogi-govt-ai-investment-deal-is-now-under-fraud-cloud">Rs 3,350-cr MoU, 70,000 jobs: A Yogi govt AI investment deal is now under fraud cloud</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091256/">Izazat</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/books/2026/may/24/could-nature-itself-hold-the-solution-to-climate-change">Could nature itself hold the solution to climate change?</a></ins>Raman<ins><a href="https://www.fifa.com/en/tournaments/mens/worldcup/canadamexicousa2026">Fifa world cup </a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/uttar-pradesh/up-police-constable-exam-when-hope-anddesperation-collide/article71088833.ece/amp/">U.P. Police Constable Exam: When hope and desperation collide</a></ins>Aakar Patel <ins><a href="https://www.penguin.co.in/book/discovery-of-new-india/">Discovery of New India</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/@GDiesen1">Glenn Diesen</a></ins>Check out <ins><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VCmV6yr5t1LHE77Xp5-cYhWrQSkhW3A8nix310MvRQU/edit?usp=sharing">previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters</a>. </ins>Produced by Amit Pandey with production assistance from Abhay. Sound by Anil Kumar.[00:00:00] Manisha: This is a News Laundry podcast and you're listening to NL Hafta[00:00:11] Manisha: Angrez apna lagaan aur News Laundry apna hafta kabhi nahi chhodte. I'm your host for the week, Manisha Pandey, as Abhinandan has to attend to some important work. We have a very exciting panel for you today, all in-house mostly, but a special guest joining us. Welcome, Shardul. [00:00:29] Shardool : Hello. [00:00:29] Manisha: [00:00:30] Welcome, Raman sir. [00:00:31] Raman: Hi. [00:00:32] Manisha: You had a stormy night, I believe, in Noida.[00:00:34] Manisha: Yeah, [00:00:34] Raman: it was. [00:00:35] Manisha: Yeah. [00:00:35] Raman: I started for the office, and I, uh, came back, you know, after five minutes of drive. Great. So it was difficult for me to reach office[00:00:40] Raman: on time. But[00:00:44] Manisha: I'm happy that you've joined us online. We have Aakar Patel joining us soon. Now, before I get to the headlines, I have some important announcements to make. The first announcement is for all you people tuning in, whether through our YouTube, through our app, or [00:01:00] through our website. I need you guys to know that you're part of something amazing, and this month proves why.[00:01:07] Manisha: This month and the month before. We had two young people who decided to not go to mainstream media organizations and come to News Laundry. Abhijeet Deepke- Yes ... Cockroach Party founder, when he just burst onto the scene, he refused to go to some of the mainstream media organizations but chose to give an interview to newslaundry.com.[00:01:25] Manisha: Sarthak, who is a tender investigator, as Congress calls him- ... uh, again, did not [00:01:30] go to any of the mainstream news studios. He came to the News Laundry studio and gave us an interview for two hours, which shows that young people, when they want to say something, when they want their angst put out, they're choosing a platform like News Laundry over many of the other big media legacy organizations who are flush with funds.[00:01:49] Manisha: This is no mean feat, and our subscribers and us have been able to do this. It's not something that's happened over the last two months. This is the work of 14 years. Yes. For 14 [00:02:00] years, we've been on this path of ad-free news where we have put- Public interest at the center of everything we do, and I think it's finally bearing fruit in the sense that young people are turning to News Laundry when they want to tell their truth and rejecting many of the resource-rich media organizations.[00:02:20] Manisha: We know of here, you know, chants of "Modi Media, go back." Mm-hmm. You know, every protest we see that. But this is what happens when News Laundry hits the [00:02:30] [00:02:30] Reel from Protest: ground. Respect for News Laundry.[00:02:36] Manisha: That was our reporter, Pratik. He was at the CPJ protest in Pune, and the number of people who said respect to News Laundry was heartening. I mean, and this happens to us all the time when our reporters go on the ground. People welcome us. You know, we're, we're rarely shooed away. So it's, uh, really heartening, and we've been able to do this together, uh, our subscribers and us.[00:03:00] [00:03:00] Manisha: So if you're a parent listening to this podcast, please, um, be proud of the fact that you support us. If you don't subscribe us, then do subscribe to us because we need to be stronger than what we are today so that we can stay at the front lines for the next five, 10 years. [00:03:15] Shardool : And like 14 years. You've been here for 10, I think, right?[00:03:19] Shardool : More than 10. Uh, since two [00:03:19] Manisha: thou- since Modi Ji became the prime minister, I've been. [00:03:22] Shardool : You came with Modi Ji. [00:03:22] Manisha: Yeah. So I gave News Laundry as much as Modi gave to India. [00:03:25] Shardool : Like y-y-you don't realize [00:03:27] Manisha: it. Mere bhi four three nine nine un-uninterrupted days only. [00:03:29] Shardool : Yes. [00:03:29] Manisha: [00:03:30] Oh. [00:03:31] Shardool : Oh, and the other thing, Ekta, I didn't realize I came just one week before the pandemic.[00:03:35] Shardool : It's been six-plus years. [00:03:36] Manisha: Yeah. And- Long [00:03:38] Shardool : time ... [00:03:39] Manisha: a lot of our subscribers have been with us right from the beginning, so thank you so much. If you're a subscriber, really be proud of what you've built together with us. And if you're not a subscriber, I think last two months we've given you great reason to support us.[00:03:50] Manisha: You know, we want to be the voice of the future generation, and we wanna make sure that somebody's talking about issues that really shape their lives. If you're a student tuning [00:04:00] into this, then please, student or Gen Z, you know, between 18 to 29, 16 to 32, please tell your parents to subscribe to News Laundry.[00:04:09] Manisha: Tell your chacha, mama, mummy, daddy, dada, dadi to just subscribe because we really need your support. Like we said, our mission is to just be on the front lines for the next many years, be strong, and we can't do that if we don't have resources. And- So please support News Laundry. [00:04:25] Shardool : And there is a subscriber mind to be mined in WhatsApp groups of uncles of R- [00:04:30] Ha[00:04:30] Shardool : RWA. Share our stuff. And also, before you move on, you made the most journalistic flip. You said CPJ, not CJP. Oh. Community protects journalists. [00:04:38] Manisha: CJP, not[00:04:42] Manisha: community protect, huh? Kokraj Janata Party protest. Cockroach party protest Another important announcement, football season is on. I don't watch it. Raman Sir and Shardul, of course, watch. [00:04:49] Shardool : No, I don't. [00:04:49] Manisha: Has the first game kicked in? [00:04:51] Raman: I, I, I [00:04:52] Shardool : watched. Yes, yes. [00:04:52] Manisha: Okay. [00:04:53] Shardool : Yes, last night, 12:30 AM for-- IST. Okay. [00:04:56] Manisha: So we have Let's Talk About Football that Abhinandan has hosted.[00:04:59] Manisha: Do check [00:05:00] that podcast out. It's got some fabulous, uh, you know, reviews from people in the game- [00:05:06] Shardool : Yeah, yeah ... [00:05:06] Manisha: from people who follow it, from people who are also invested in it as a [00:05:10] Shardool : sport. People who don't follow it also, like, for me, it was very interesting because it tells you how Indian football is structured and how it lags behind despite we having manpower and, you know, not lack of space.[00:05:20] Manisha: So please check out Let's Talk About Football. And again, I wanna be self-indulgent and wanna say that please, if you guys have not checked out our interview with Sarthak Siddhant, do check it out. [00:05:30] It's only for our subscribers. I think it'll leave you with a lot of hope for our country and for the younger generation.[00:05:36] Manisha: So do check that out. And of course, don't forget to check out South Central. With the announcements out of the way, let's get into the headlines. The Trinamool Congress is facing a major internal crisis, with 19 of its 29 Lok Sabha MPs rebelling against Mamata Banerjee. Led by Kakoli Ghosh Dastidar, the dissidents are said to be planning a separate parliamentary bloc aligned with the NDA after meeting BJP leaders like Bhupendra Yadav and Subhindu Adhikari.[00:05:59] Manisha: So this [00:06:00] NDA-BJP division, I'm not buying. That we are going with NDA, we're not going with BJP. Of course you're going with BJP. In other news, leaders of nearly 25 opposition parties met in Delhi for a crucial INDIA bloc meeting to strengthen coordination against the BJP. The bloc agreed to form a coordination committee finally, hold bi-monthly meetings, jointly raise concerns over electoral roll revisions and recent paper leaks.[00:06:20] Manisha: The Delhi High Court has quashed the FIR filed by the Economic Offences Wing and ED in a case against NewsClick and its editor-in-chief, Prabir Purkayastha. Yes. [00:06:30] So one more case. [00:06:30] Shardool : Nice. [00:06:31] Manisha: Uh, after that witch hunt on NDTV, you saw authorities go after NewsClick. The office was shut down, reporters were questioned.[00:06:39] Manisha: They were called suspects, even freelance reporters. [00:06:42] Shardool : Yeah. [00:06:42] Manisha: And today, apparently, it was all for nothing. The UAPA case still stands, though. And as we know, UAPA cases are really about thought policing, so not surprised there. Uh, the Delhi High Court has also granted bail to Kashmiri human rights activist Khurram Parvez more than four years after his [00:07:00] arrest by the NIA under UAPA.[00:07:02] Manisha: In Manipur, police have recovered bodies of six Naga men who were abducted on May 13, allegedly by armed Kuki groups. In a separate incident, two members of the Kuki community were killed and several homes were set on fire after militants attacked Kultu Kuki village in Manipur's Kamjong district. So, no signs of- [00:07:21] Shardool : This is bad[00:07:22] Manisha: any normalcy in the state. [00:07:24] Shardool : Yeah. And now Nagas are also involved, so the Kukis internally would be surrounded. [00:07:30] Like, we spoke to Amit many times, right? Since this started. So the Naga community settlement and the Kukis are sort of in between. Either Meitei in the main city. Th- this, this ca- has potential to be, get much worse.[00:07:42] Manisha: BJP candidates Tarun Shukla, Rajnish Agrawal, and Mahesh Kewat were elected unopposed to the three Rajya Sabha seats from Madhya Pradesh. This comes as the Congress moved the Supreme Court challenging rejection of its candidate, Meenakshi Natarajan's nomination. She was the sole candidate for the [00:08:00] June 18 poll, saw her nomination rejected after BJP alleged that she had failed to disclose details of a criminal case against her in Telangana in her affidavit.[00:08:09] Manisha: What do you make of this, Raman sir? [00:08:11] Raman: No, no, this amounts to, uh, almost rigging the election. Uh, I'm using the very strong word because, uh, if you just know, there are two aspects to it. One is, uh, Meenakshi Natarajan, the case that they're talking about There's some Congress worker, [00:08:30] Congress leader had abused her or the, the police had filed a case against the person who had abused her.[00:08:37] Song: Hmm. [00:08:37] Raman: Later, this guy goes to the court and files a complaint against her, which is yet to be turned into an FIR against Menaka [00:08:47] Song: Natarajan. Hmm. [00:08:47] Raman: The police did not directly, you know, file a case against, uh ... So, so if it has to be done, it has to be done through the court. So, so the [00:09:00] case, I mean, sh- uh, this is not something that you need to reveal because, uh, the due process is still on.[00:09:08] Raman: So I think this is, uh, this is, this was not an omission at all, number one. Secondly, I mean, when you understand the strategy of the BJP, I mean, they, they require two third majority in Rajya Sabha. They require a solid majority in Rajya Sabha because, uh, they want to come up with very important legislations, [00:09:30] uh, in which, in fact, the states also need to participate, uh, whether it is delimitation or, or it is, uh, you know, the election, one election in the entire nation.[00:09:42] Raman: So, so, so that, keeping that in mind, that is why you are s- you are seeing so much churning, uh, you know, and so much, uh, defection that is happening in Rajya Sabha. So I, I don't, uh, you know, see it as an isolated incident. I think this was ... And Congress [00:10:00] was in a very comfortable position to, uh, you know, win, uh, for Rajya Sabha because they have 63 odd seats, uh, uh, 63 MLAs in, uh, you know, uh, in Madhya Pradesh Assembly, and they required just 58 Uh, well, uh, 58, uh, votes for the re-election.[00:10:19] Manisha: Yes, so we shall discuss this as when we discuss the Prime Minister completing 4,399 uninterrupted days. The price of a domestic LPG cylinder has been increased by [00:10:30] rupees 29. This is the second hike in three months. A 14.2 kg cylinder in Delhi will now cost rupees 942, up from 913. The center has extended its excise duty exemption to petrol blended with 22% and 30% ethanol.[00:10:44] Manisha: The Bureau of Indian Standards has recently notified fuel norms for higher ethanol blends, though they are yet to be sold commercially. Tamil Nadu Chief Minister has reiterated the state's opposition to NEET, urging the center to allow admissions to state quota seats in MBBS, BDS, and Ayush courses based [00:11:00] solely on class 12 marks.[00:11:01] Manisha: He was also here meeting Rahul Gandhi. I saw some pictures of them online. Uh, Vijay made the demand at the 11th Governing Council meeting of NITI Aayog in New Delhi, attended by the Prime Minister and chief ministers from across the country. Three Indian seafarers were killed after a commercial tanker was struck by U.S.[00:11:19] Manisha: forces off the coast of Oman amid the ongoing conflict in West Asia. Union Minister Sarbananda Sonowal said on Thursday. These attacks must cease and end, that's what the Indian Foreign Ministry [00:11:30] spokesperson said, as India called for restraint amid escalating tensions in the region. In other news, 20 Indian seafarers were aboard a ship involved in a maritime security incident off the coast of O-Oman.[00:11:42] Manisha: All crew members are safe and are being evacuated. [00:11:44] Shardool : I think they also summoned U.S. diplomat and- [00:11:47] Manisha: Yeah, yeah ... [00:11:48] Shardool : sort of- [00:11:49] Manisha: That was when we were on show ... official [00:11:50] Shardool : protest. [00:11:50] Manisha: Trump said he had canceled a third consecutive day of planned U.S. strikes on Iran, claiming that a deal with Tehran was close to being finalized.[00:11:57] Manisha: He added that the time and venue for signing the agreement would [00:12:00] be announced soon. And last headline, at least 15 people have been killed in clashes between protesters and security forces in Pak-occupied Kashmir, according to local authorities. Violence erupted after an alliance of activist groups called for protests against the reservation of legislative seats for refugees who migrated to Pakistan from India.[00:12:19] Manisha: And finally, the 2026 FIFA World Cup has been overshadowed by a series of off-field controversies, with strict U.S. visa immigration policies affecting players and officials and fans. [00:12:30] Incidents involving Iraqi striker, African referee, and members of Iran's delegation have sparked allegations of discrimination and unfair treatment.[00:12:38] Manisha: With that, we shall get right into our first discussion of the week. We have Aakar with us. Great. So Aakar is an Indian journalist, columnist, author, human rights activist. He's edited several English and Gujarati newspapers and served as the executive director of Amnesty International from 2015 to 2019.[00:12:57] Manisha: He's known for his writings on Indian politics, [00:13:00] democracy, civil liberties, and social issues. He's the author of books like Our Hindu Rashtra, Price of the Modi Years, and is a regular commentator on public affairs. And we have you here on the happy occasion of the Prime Minister completing 4,399 uninterrupted days in power [00:13:17] Shardool : He's, he's Aakar's favorite [00:13:22] Aakar patel: chief minister Continues uninterrupted and elected.[00:13:24] Aakar patel: I think we have to make sure that those three words are slipped in, as they were to all the faxes that went out across the world to the [00:13:30] leaders who were asked to tweet about it. Georgia Meloni, et cetera. So- Continues uninterrupted and elected ... [00:13:37] Manisha: huh, continues uninterrupted elected Prime Minister for fourth time.[00:13:40] Aakar patel: Apparently, we were not in a democracy between '47 and '52. Yeah. That's what the government of India is telling us. So the British Raj ended only in '52. [00:13:49] Manisha: Nehru's first three years just don't count. ... [00:13:51] Aakar patel: our friendship. I've never met[00:14:00] [00:14:12] Aakar patel: him, but I quite like him, and there, you have this kind of connect with people based on their face and the contours of, you know, the cheeks and so on. But he's not really a friend. So [00:14:23] Shardool : you like Ra- Ram Madhav's cheekbones? [00:14:25] Aakar patel: I, I do, I do. And he's, he's... There's a fabulous photograph of him doing [00:14:30] yoga on Yoga Divas, wearing sneakers and holding this kind of pose like, I don't know, uh, very, yeah, quite masculine I thought.[00:14:38] Aakar patel: And I, I felt sort of attracted to him. Which is why I said I quite[00:14:43] Manisha: like [00:14:43] Aakar patel: him. [00:14:43] Manisha: He is likable. I must say Ram Madhav is quite [00:14:46] Aakar patel: likable. Absolutely. Something, something- A- a- and, and to me- ... something [00:14:47] Manisha: about [00:14:48] Aakar patel: him ... to, to, yeah, th- there's so few of them that write, that write anything or read anything. I don't know whether he does, but he, he seems to be one of those, so, yeah. He's on [00:14:56] Manisha: the Indian Express pages often.[00:14:58] Aakar patel: He is, he is. Yeah. [00:15:00] Indeed, yeah. That seems to be the paper of choice for the, for, for the people referred to as the right wing to go and, um, establish their, uh, credentials intellectually. I don't know why, but, but you're right, yeah. If we express journalism of courage. So Aakar, [00:15:16] Manisha: I wanted to, uh, discuss this, you know, as we finish Four Three Nine Nine days.[00:15:21] Manisha: One, like, if you had to look at two chief achievements of Modi government in the last 12 years, and [00:15:30] by achievements I mean if you... The, the two things that really stand out for you that we've seen happen under this government's, uh, governance, what would they be? [00:15:40] Aakar patel: The things that stand out, I think one is his full-throated defense or offense, if you, uh, prefer, of, uh, Hindutva.[00:15:50] Aakar patel: Hmm. So before him, what we had was a fairly mealy-mouthed, uh, tepid response to what the BJP was doing on, on the ground. [00:16:00] I think it was Ram Vilas Paswan who said, "के इनके शब्दों पर मत जाइए। Wo- what they're doing on the ground is what is relevant." And I think that what, what is refreshing with Modi is that all of that, uh, hypocrisy is in the dustbin.[00:16:14] Aakar patel: That through his words, but also through his actions, the laws that have been passed at the level of the union on citizenship and on the states, uh, the, the BJP-run states on marriage, on food- Mm-hmm ... uh, [00:16:30] and so on. I think that's, that's made it, that's made it quite, uh, transparent, and I think that's, that's a good thing- [00:16:35] Song: Hmm[00:16:36] Aakar patel: whether you're on this side or you're on the other side. Um, so that's, that's one thing. The other thing I think is that it is honest, uh, also in the sense that i- it's rare to find a world leader who's so, uh, solipsistic, you know, full of himself. Like, uh, there's nobody else in the world at the moment I know who refers to themselves in thir- in the, uh, third person.[00:16:57] Aakar patel: "Modi ने यह कहा। Modi के बारे में वो [00:17:00] बोला।" [00:17:00] Song: Hmm. [00:17:01] Aakar patel: So, a- and I think that this, there's a kind of kindergarten charm, this kind of childlikeness to having people give you medals, you know, give you- Yeah ... the Philip Kotler Award- Yes ... something, um, not, a bauble not given to anybody before or since. I, I find all of that quite nice, that this is somebody that, that's there, because politicians are two-faced for the most part, and fork-tongued.[00:17:26] Aakar patel: He's not. He, he, he, he, he sort of tells you who he is, and he [00:17:30] does what it is that he says. Sure. So tho- those are the two things. [00:17:33] Manisha: So do you wanna... I wanna come to Raman sir, but just one quick question on this, uh, you know, this urge to be liked, and especially in foreign platforms like whether it's a medal or handshakes, hugs, just this outreach that you see.[00:17:47] Manisha: Uh, I think Abhinandan had made this observation in one of the Haftas that when he's back home with his own leaders, he has the sternest of expressions. [00:17:54] Raman: Yes. [00:17:55] Manisha: Like, just like an angry principal who's schooling his [00:18:00] class or his bunch of teachers. That's his general demeanor back home, where he's stern, he's angry, he rarely ever smiles.[00:18:06] Manisha: Especially, like if you see the cabinet meetings, even when this whole thing was happening where they were clapping for him- [00:18:11] Song: Yeah ... [00:18:12] Manisha: he d- he's not as warm, let's say. The moment he steps outside, whenever, whoever- Mm-hmm ... he's meeting, he's like the most warmest person, with foreign leaders, with the press there, with whatever.[00:18:24] Manisha: He has this smile. He's, he's cracking jokes. He's laughing. It's like that [00:18:30] airport look, you know, pictures that Bollywood guys- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... get clicked right outside the airport where they're always like, "He's-" Yes ... smiling like I don't know what. Why do you think that is? Where does that come from? Since you know him from his Gujarat days.[00:18:41] Aakar patel: I think that the... Let's look at the parallel. So since you mentioned Gujarat days, he was always on the lookout for validation from the, uh, English media. Mm-hmm. So I went with, uh, Patgaonkar and Varghese as part of this, uh, team that the Editors Guild sent, sent [00:19:00] to Gujarat in 2002. I think we, we were there in March and in April to look at the media's, uh, performance during the violence.[00:19:08] Aakar patel: And he was at pains to make sure that we felt comfortable. He's, he would spend time with us, had the entire secretariat, all the secretaries of the state lined up in rows in front of us for us to ask uh, a question. It's not something he would do with the Gujarati press. [00:19:23] Song: Hmm. [00:19:24] Aakar patel: It's not something that he did in that period with the Hindi press.[00:19:27] Aakar patel: He wanted to be liked. He wanted to [00:19:30] be, to be, uh, uh, understood by those people who were accusing him of being communal, and he felt that this was wrong, that he was a different sort of person, and once you really got to know him well... He held my hand and, like, you know, swung it around in the way that, uh, that, you know, Gujarati men do.[00:19:48] Song: Hmm. [00:19:49] Aakar patel: And, uh, men around the subcontinent do. Um, and then he, he was very warm, but he, he, he required validation, and I think that extends to the globe. The reason [00:20:00] why ANI and the other networks have cut off the audio from his meetings with leaders of the Global North, he's not seen this way, uh, with the leaders from Africa, for instance, because that's not the set of people that he wants, uh, he wants validation from.[00:20:20] Aakar patel: It is these people from Europe and the US. And that said, that he wants them to look on him the way he looks on himself. I assure you, [00:20:30] he spends a large amount of time, more than most men would, on what he's gonna wear, how he looks in the mirror that day, and so on, and he's always been that way. [00:20:39] Song: Hmm. [00:20:40] Aakar patel: There was a full page we carried.[00:20:41] Aakar patel: I was, uh, working in a Gujarat newspaper 25 years or so ago, uh, Divya Bhaskar, where we got access to him for a day, and what he wanted published were photos of him doing yoga. [00:20:53] Song: Hmm. [00:20:53] Aakar patel: Like, doing, uh, Vajrasana. Not a very good one, but, but trying to do it a-and so on. And he wants to [00:21:00] be seen in a particular light, and from that it follows that he feels slightly insecure about the way the world sees him, and those people he wants, uh, to be liked by, to be loved by, are necessarily those who say, "Maybe this is not the kind of thing I'm looking for in a man."[00:21:16] Manisha: Okay, deep psychological insights by Akar Patel. But let's get Raman in. What are your, uh, big achievements if you had to look at, uh, Modi government's last 12 years? [00:21:28] Raman: All politicians, they [00:21:30] try to stay in power. So Modi, uh, you know, I think his, uh, capacity to make political capital out of anything, whether it is misery or anything, that he, he's very good at it.[00:21:46] Raman: So in 2014, he wins. So I think the next day he had started preparing for, uh, you know, the next election. So the next election he wins, then he... then the next election. So his, [00:22:00] his, uh, you know, uh, consistency as a politician to stay in power by any means, and that- does not make him, uh, a very straight person.[00:22:10] Raman: I think, uh, as a demagogue, he's a two-faced person. He announce, he announces several things, but that is just to make his political capital. But whether those things happen or not, uh, we know it, it normally doesn't. So I think this is one achievement, I mean, politicians staying in power. [00:22:30] So here he has, and, uh, he has done a wonderful job that way.[00:22:35] Raman: Uh, whether you want to view it negatively or positively, but, but yes, he stayed in power. [00:22:41] Manisha: So [00:22:42] Raman: And even now, even now he looks very pretty strong. [00:22:45] Manisha: Huh. [00:22:46] Raman: Okay. And, and, and the second is I think, uh, uh Uh, you know, we had a pandemic year, and despite all of this, our economy has not done very badly. [00:23:00] Uh, but partly, uh, it, it is by default also because he could not break the steel framework of bureaucracy, uh, you know, of Indian bureaucracy because Indian bureaucracy, they, they, they, uh, they did not, uh, diverted much, you know, from the path, uh, which, uh, Manmohan Singh had introduced way back in 1992.[00:23:21] Raman: Uh, so, so there, uh, I think we see some growth. I mean, not as fast as we had it in, uh, you know, Congress [00:23:30] time, but then, uh, he had a pandemic year. So, so I think in terms of growth, uh, nothing much has been touched. Uh, yes, unemployment, uh, I mean, there are some negatives also. But yes, infra, uh, roads, uh, the construction of roads, uh, is something which has really happened during his time.[00:23:50] Raman: Mm. So these two, I think, I view as the main- Striking [00:23:55] Manisha: features. Uh, striking features. [00:23:57] Raman: Shardul? [00:23:57] Shardool : So first I wanna [00:24:00] talk about this thing you said about the personality of Modi. The, "Look at me, look at me. Mommy, Mommy, look at me." That, that's sort of a natural male phenomena in general. [00:24:10] Reel from Protest: Mm. [00:24:10] Shardool : You'll see males even in birds and all the more brighter colors, but I'm making a point that I don't know him personally, but I know pracharaks very well.[00:24:19] Shardool : Mm. And that is pracharak training. Internally, your word is law, and outside you have to be affable. Like, uh, Aakar was talking about Ram Madhav. You are very affable. [00:24:30] Like Abhinandan keeps mentioning, like he has been for decades now in opposition public, right? Mm. But they're always affable inviting him.[00:24:37] Shardool : That's the training. Internally, your, internally your word is law. Mm. So you don't look at them as peers. Even if they are peers, you are above them, clearly in hierarchy. So he doesn't have to sort of put in the effort to be affable. That's the reason for that dichotomy of warmness and sternness to the people who are close to you.[00:24:58] Reel from Protest: Mm. [00:24:59] Shardool : But i- in [00:25:00] human terms, it, it's opposite, right? You are on sort of on guard with strangers or people who are transactional, let's say. Mm. Right? He's a politician. And affable and sort of loose with people you know, even if they are not your complete friends. So that's the reason. That's the reason for the, uh, need for that validation and looks for people who are perceived somehow higher.[00:25:21] Shardool : So which, which in India is also like gori chamdi. [00:25:23] Song: Mm. [00:25:24] Shardool : Or that childish thing, "Give me award," whether Netanyahu is giving or dropping a bomb, [00:25:30] "No, no. [00:25:30] Manisha: Hang [00:25:31] Shardool : him, hang him." [00:25:32] Manisha: Yeah. About- Two striking features. [00:25:33] Shardool : Yeah, yeah. A- a- and it's, it's sort of two sides of the same coin. The other thing, the main question you have is, look, no matter how much we talk, and I sort of think Trump is a hyperdrive version of Modi, but so many bad things and good things always happen.[00:25:53] Shardool : It's not that things will stop. Nothing is completely good or bad. But for me, and maybe because it's also [00:26:00] related to so many of us personally, but demonetization was such a blow to this country because this country never had the best of administration or, you know, governance. But the inherent sort of capacity people had built, like you have to listen to, I remember like almost 10 years ago, not almost, like 6 months back, November 2016 it happened.[00:26:21] Shardool : Mm-hmm. I remember Professor Arun Kumar talking about that most of our economy was informal, and even if it was inefficient [00:26:30] and full of holes, people had inherent community-based structures for support. Demonetization wiped out. [00:26:36] Manisha: Mm-hmm. [00:26:37] Shardool : And it has resulted, we can see now 10 years later, in extreme concentration of wealth.[00:26:42] Shardool : Mm-hmm. Poorer, poor people have got much poorer and rich have sort of exploded, and they're everywhere. [00:26:48] Manisha: Mm-hmm. [00:26:49] Shardool : This is, I think, one of the most long-lasting, and I think it'll take the most time to reverse through governance. Because- [00:26:56] Manisha: Especially when he inherited a very strong economy. Y- [00:26:59] Shardool : yes, yes. [00:27:00] Yeah. He, [00:27:01] Manisha: he got a good deal- Where did we-[00:27:01] Manisha: when he came to power. Th- [00:27:02] Shardool : that's why we took these blows, but the tendency to not consult, again, that prachar training, that once you are in that hierarchy, my word is law. I don't need to ask. I need to tell, and you will implement पहले मैं consult कर लूं या नहीं करूं? That thing again and again we see it, we see it in lockdown, we see it in farm laws.[00:27:21] Shardool : Like you can sort of repeat this sort of framework कि वो पूछते किसी से नहीं, implement कर देते हैं, and people who are sort [00:27:30] of at the bottom of the hierarchy chain bear the worst brunt, of course. The demonetization is the longest lasting in my personal opinion. [00:27:37] Manisha: So I wanna come to Akar now on, uh, one thing that Raman said that, you know, uh, the relentless drive to stay in power, and then a lot of journalists also talk about it as hard work.[00:27:49] Manisha: I mean, the typical, um, sort of criticism we hear of the opposition is that they're lazy, and that BJP is actually just a very hardworking party, and that's why they keep winning. [00:28:00] I want to understand two things from you, and this ties into the conversations we've been having about how opposition can take on the BJP.[00:28:07] Manisha: One, how much of this power is actually Amit Shah? I mean, the Amit Shah-Modi duo, can they survive without each other? And we've seen them, and I mean, you've seen them very closely in Gujarat, and how, how this hard work actually functions. So, you know, as we... The, the questions around whether Modi will retire or not, where does power really flow from when it comes to [00:28:30] winning elections one after the other?[00:28:31] Manisha: So if Modi is this guy who can relentlessly win elections, how much of that power actually comes from Amit Shah? And the second thing I want you to tie in to look at, you know, when we're thinking about opposition taking on BJP, there's also this one understanding that actually it'll be the BJP that'll take on the BJP, that finally it'll be their own internal contradictions, their own weaknesses, uh, infighting or whatever.[00:28:54] Manisha: Do you, do you see that as a realistic assessment of the BJP as we know it today? [00:28:58] Aakar patel: No. I'll go to the first [00:29:00] question first. Mo-, uh, uh- Amit can be replaced. Yeah And what he brings to the table in terms of competence, in terms of hardness, these are not characteristics that are rare. [00:29:13] Song: Hmm. [00:29:13] Aakar patel: When, when some- when somebody is, uh, empowered, they can actually function to the level that he does, and he's extremely competent.[00:29:21] Aakar patel: For the decade or so that he was home minister of Gujarat, uh, when Modi was the chief minister, he was not given cabinet rank, and he was always kept as [00:29:30] minister of state- Hmm ... with the understanding that, that there is somebody larger than him on top. Modi can't be replaced. He's, uh, sui generis. There's nobody like him.[00:29:39] Aakar patel: He- there are many aspects to him that are unique. He's the only person in the BJP who brings in, through his charisma, both the nut job voter who wants- Hmm ... the Muslims to be screwed over, plus he's got this sort of aspirational bent to him, where those in the middle class who might be willing to look away from some of the, the ideological stuff, but don't [00:30:00] like, say, dynastic politics, don't like the fact that India seem to be, uh, timid on the global stage.[00:30:05] Aakar patel: For them also, he's the only person. I don't think people like the UP chief minister and so on can actually replace him. Hmm. He, he... The, the BJP, all through the '70s, including in Gujarat, had a single-digit vote share. So it doubled only after the BJP took over the Ram Mandir issue in 1984. Um, and then Modi doubled it once again.[00:30:29] Aakar patel: [00:30:30] So what Vajpayee left him as his inheritance of national vote share was about 19 or, or 20%. He's taken that, that to 38. I don't think anybody else can. So, so that's, that's quite clear. Th- they are very good in, at, at doing politics, as, as we say in our parts. And, and, uh, it's quite relentless. There's no sign of joy or satisfaction when they're doing something.[00:30:53] Aakar patel: They'll move on to the next thing. [00:30:54] Manisha: Hmm. [00:30:55] Aakar patel: And, uh- Yeah. [00:30:57] Manisha: They don't- [00:30:57] Aakar patel: That, that- [00:30:58] Manisha: They don't pause to celebrate. [00:31:00] Yeah. [00:31:00] Aakar patel: No, and I think that, that, that, that, uh, that by, uh, that by itself is a quality that, that, that, that must be admired. That what, what can go wrong with the opposition normally does go wrong. What can go right with the BJP normally does go right, and that's because of the fact that they put shoulder to wheel and give it much more.[00:31:21] Aakar patel: It's not just about hard work. I think it's about of intellectual competence, knowing what it is that you do, and believing in what you do. I don't think Modi [00:31:30] and the BJP of his, uh, time do the kind of politics, do the kind of laws, do the kind of communalism because it gets them more seats. They do it because they believe in it.[00:31:40] Song: Hmm. [00:31:41] Aakar patel: That brings me to the second question. The RSS is the only organization we have in this country of any meaningful size that has not split, and the reason for that is when you have such a, such a foundation which is based on A principle which is essentially anti-minority. Muslims should not keep their mosque in [00:32:00] Ayodhya.[00:32:00] Aakar patel: Muslims should not keep their, uh, personal law. Muslims should not keep their autonomy in Kashmir. Those are the three, uh, issues that brought them to power. Uh, 370 Babri and, uh, UCC. When it's such sharply narrowly focused, what can happen in such a party is that when the patriarch leaves, there is a fight to replace him on the right, not on the left.[00:32:21] Song: Hmm. [00:32:22] Aakar patel: What will come after Modi, um, will be a s- minor squabble where two things will happen. One is [00:32:30] there will be a positioning of people within the power group who are trying to show themselves as being more nut-jobby than what he's left behind. More bulldozers, more laws, m- more sort of exclusion, though that's not really possible because we don't have any Muslims in power in the Union government at this time- Yeah[00:32:49] Aakar patel: for the first time in our, uh, history. Uh, not something that they record in their 4399 days. Um, and the second thing that will happen is that the RSS, the mother body, will move in [00:33:00] and try to, um, reassert itself in a way that it can't at the moment because he's more popular than them. Hmm. So those are the two ways that I would look [00:33:09] Manisha: at it.[00:33:09] Manisha: So when it comes to who after Modi, like there are names like Himanta Biswa Sarma, Fadnavis, Yogi, but the [00:33:17] Aakar patel: key- They "... " They don't have that other bit. And I think with those, with the- ... with, with that, with the guy from Assam, he's slightly fraudulent because he's never... Modi was able to establish his credentials in Hindutva terms in [00:33:30] 2002 in a way that either can't be replicated because it cannot, and he doesn't need to, uh, echo what it is that he stands for.[00:33:38] Aakar patel: We know what he stands for. [00:33:40] Manisha: That is done with. But shouldn't that then lead to a natural weakening if there is no one like Modi in the BJP? Then [00:33:45] Aakar patel: that has to- They will have that, they will have that problem. Yeah. And I think that, uh, he, uh, I, I think of him as being unique in many, many ways, and I don't think he's replaceable from the pack that they have within.[00:33:58] Aakar patel: The problem with having somebody from the [00:34:00] outside is that they will have to go through what he did because he wasn't parachuted into the, uh, prime ministership. Hmm. He had a decade of record to show it, beginning with 2002 and the horrors of, of that period, uh, which, which will not, which will not actually accrue to whoever else is coming into the job.[00:34:18] Manisha: Raman sir, your view on, um, who comes... Like Modi as a leader in BJP who's just irreplaceable And that there is gonna be a natural weakening after his [00:34:30] days are interrupted. [00:34:32] Raman: Things change in politics, you know, every hour. But- Hmm ... yes, with Modi politics is standstill in a way. But, uh, I think after Modi, I can't, uh, visualize, you know, anyone, anybody from the BJP winning.[00:34:46] Raman: I, I completely agree with Akar. I mean, this UP CM that people keep, uh, you know, but, but I think this is the north, north phenomenon. Most people in UP or s- maybe some, some in [00:35:00] Delhi, they are, they, they see it like this. But I don't think, uh, he has the charisma. Just look at the CM, he had gone to Karnataka, he had gone to Chhattisgarh- [00:35:09] Song: Hmm[00:35:09] Raman: for campaigning and all that. He wasn't popular at all. So, so I think there is going to be a huge vacuum. Uh, so, so first of all, I see in 2029, uh, so long as he stays, uh, you know, uh, Modi stays, uh, more popular than RSS, then I think he's, [00:35:30] he's gonna come back in 2029. He will not retire Uh, so, so that is something which, uh, I am very keenly looking at.[00:35:39] Raman: Uh, the RSS and, uh, Modi, how it is going to play up in the next two, three years. Uh, because, uh, uh, people in private, uh, you know, from the RSS, uh, you get that feeling that they're looking for that kind of opportunity. So, so I think, uh, this is something which we need to watch in [00:36:00] next three years, uh, who prevails, RSS or Modi?[00:36:04] Raman: If Modi does, his popularity does, then I think in 2029 he's gonna come back because the way opposition, um, is, uh, you know, shaping up, uh, I don't see they stand any chance. But having said that, yes, politics change every hour. You [00:36:23] Manisha: know, so this brings me, Shardul, actually this RSS versus BJP thing brings me to something I was thinking about with this cockroach Janata party [00:36:30] demand of removing Dharmendra Pradhan.[00:36:31] Shardool : Hmm. [00:36:32] Manisha: So suppose the BJP even accepts it. [00:36:34] Shardool : Yeah. [00:36:35] Manisha: Fine. I just don't think it can go to anyone better than Dharmendra Pradhan. It'll have to be an RSS person because finally, what is RSS getting out of this, uh, unconditional support that they give to Modi? Fine, we support you. We're okay with you being more popular, but you give us culture, you give us education.[00:36:54] Manisha: I think those are the two things BJP has to negotiate and give it to them. So you take the education, you [00:37:00] figure out what you wanna do with NCERT, you put all your VCs in charge in all the colleges, universities, and you take Bollywood. I think that is, to my mind, I don't know if that's happened or not, but I think that's the deal that has to be struck for the RSS to stay happy, right?[00:37:13] Manisha: With this unconditional power that Modi can keep exerting and ignore them on other issues. What do you think of that? And, and this... Do we make too much of this RSS versus BJP thing? It's also like too much of a fetish for the liberal media, ""But actually, it's [00:37:30] just normal for these large organizations to have some sort of tussle."[00:37:33] Shardool : I was about to say that, and I think Aakar will know because in Gujarat and, like, in early years you see this more. To think that Modi is different from RSS is to not understand how Prachar training is. For the 30-plus years of his life, he lived in a RSS allerlei. And I lived in one, but I left that life, right?[00:37:52] Shardool : But- Once you are that, you are always that because the amount of respect you have internally. So coming back to your point, [00:38:00] let's hypothetical that Dharmendra Pradhan goes, what does that change? Nothing. He was not doing anything. Yeah, it's [00:38:05] Manisha: not like they'll get a super, you know- And [00:38:07] Shardool : RSS- ... [00:38:08] Manisha: efficient, knowledgeable whatever.[00:38:09] Shardool : And RSS, Modi, BJP situ- uh, sort of relationship is not transactional. Every general secretary, uh, uh, sec- uh, secretary in every ancillary organization, jo pura Sangha Parivar are pracharaks who have been deployed, quote, unquote, "deployed", sent to work as general secretaries, and they hold this web together.[00:38:29] Shardool : If you remember [00:38:30] Ram Lal, uh, Ram Lal Ji was, um, uh, the general secretary of BJP when Modi won. He's back to core RSS now. [00:38:37] Manisha: Hmm. Haina, [00:38:39] Shardool : toh this is goes on. Internal tussle is there because this is a huge network of people. [00:38:45] Manisha: Yeah. [00:38:45] Shardool : So BMS and sometime Kisan Sangh is not that happy, but that doesn't mean ki unke beech transactional hai.[00:38:50] Shardool : Woh nahi hoga. The power equation comes, and I noted it down. One thing which has changed is this whole ecosystem never had power in the system. Pehle [00:39:00] shared thi thodi bahut, but not sort of carte blanche to do what they want. That has changed RSS also. There are people who have left, and there are people who, like Raman Sir said, s- join solely to get a ticket for Sabhasad or Vidhayak or whatever.[00:39:16] Manisha: So, um, to me, Aakar, the most striking feature, of course, as somebody who tracks the media has been what has happened to the media in the last 12 years. And you know, when we were talking about RSS versus BJP, you had said during COVID, I think I reached out to you, and all [00:39:30] these Gujarat papers were really slamming the government.[00:39:33] Manisha: And you had said that some of these are, uh, they are hardcore RSS newspapers. They are Hindutva newspapers that criticize the BJP for its actions, but ideologically they're on the same page, so don't be confused and think there's some, you know. So one, what can we expect of the media if... I mean, where do you see this go?[00:39:55] Manisha: I feel like there is, there is a huge amount of anger against the mainstream [00:40:00] media, and it is real. I think even BJP supporters feel that. Uh, we've seen that over the last two years, and I feel while it was its biggest strength, the Modi government's biggest strength, now it's coming back to really bite them because some of the dissatisfaction that people seem to feel is also that, you know, you don't have that, uh...[00:40:19] Manisha: You don't have any sort of outlet to your anger. Earlier, the media would give you a little bit of outlet, you know, where you can come, you can-- You feel satisfied that the anchor is taking on the government. There's some sort of [00:40:30] satisfaction to an Arnab screaming back then, you know, at UPA ministers. "You haven't done this, you haven't done that."[00:40:34] Manisha: So that kind of, it releases some anger, and I feel a lot of people do feel frustrated today when they turn on their TV and they're just being told how everything is great. There is an anger, and that is bound to be visible in some of these protests that we are seeing. A lot of so-called apolitical people joining these protests.[00:40:49] Manisha: A lot of people saying, "No, we like BJP, but we don't like this or that," who are now coming onto the streets. They'll join a protest here or there. So where do you see, A, the media going in the [00:41:00] next, you know, of course, in this tenure, but if the BJP is to remain in power? And, um, the larger cultural project that the RSS wants, I feel it's culture and education.[00:41:11] Manisha: Those are the two things that they're really focused on. So they're likely to swallow whatever issues they may have because like Sharadul said, this, at least they're in power and they can execute some of the larger projects they have on, you know culture and education [00:41:27] Aakar patel: The- there's a lot g- there's a [00:41:30] lot to unpack.[00:41:30] Aakar patel: I'll- Hmm ... like focus on a few things. One is that, uh, the Anglophone media in India, the newspaper for the most part, but also the TV channel because of people like, like Barkha Dutt were always, uh, edited to the left of the reader and the viewer. So the views and the news that came out in the organs of yore, The Times of India, The Express, NDTV, and so on, the material was always to the left.[00:41:58] Aakar patel: It's was more liberal [00:42:00] than the views of the ordinary. That was not, that is not the case in the language press. So the editors of, uh, Gujarati and Hindi newspaper, the, the two that I am actually familiar with, uh, sit over organs that are either sitting where the reader is sitting, which is substantially to the right of where the Anglophone media is.[00:42:21] Song: Hmm. [00:42:21] Aakar patel: Particularly on issues that l- that link to faith and culture. And I would say that what, what you said is absolutely true at the [00:42:30] beginning, that Gujarati newspapers, the ones that are really popular, and we're talking of about a million or so copies a day for, uh, Gujarat Samachar, which, which, uh, was and, and is the largest newspaper.[00:42:42] Aakar patel: The position is anti-establishment, pro-Hindutva, so against Muslims. [00:42:47] Shardool : Hmm. [00:42:48] Aakar patel: But defiant when it comes to the government, when it, uh, on things like governance, roads, and things like that. So, and that has always been the case. Modi's dissatisfaction and dislike of the press in Gujarat has [00:43:00] been because of that, uh, that, that part to them.[00:43:03] Aakar patel: That's, that's the first thing. The second thing I'd say is that, um, the ... over the period of these 15 years, I think particularly with the rise of Goswami, the Anglophone media has, uh, come towards where the rest of the press always was sitting. So it has become, uh, to a large extent, uh, communal. Which it wasn't, uh, t- uh, say 30 years ago.[00:43:29] Aakar patel: Uh, [00:43:30] when I started writing a column, um, there was only o- there were two people who represented, uh, Hindutva positively in the press in India. One was Giralal Jain, who used to edit the, The Times of India. He wrote a book called The Hindu Phenomenon. And his protege, uh, Chをご覧くださいpan, who's now the, uh, finance minister of Gujarat.[00:43:50] Aakar patel: Hmm. Finance minister. Other than them, there was nobody. You'd have to really try hard to find somebody who was, uh, celebrating the fall of the [00:44:00] Babri Masjid and, and such things. And, and that was for two reasons. One is that, um, the newspaper editors did not want that material on their pages, even if they could find writers who were willing to supply it And the second reason was it was felt by most editors, including myself, that this was not material that the Anglophone reader wanted, that we were a liberal country.[00:44:23] Aakar patel: India Today had a, a A Gujarati edition, um, [00:44:30] uh, which, which had the word shame on it, sharm- Hmm ... with their cover on the mosque. And they had to shut down that magazine within weeks that same year, because it was completely unacceptable to the average Gujarati that that moment be seen as a moment of shame rather than one of valor and one of, uh, of pride.[00:44:51] Aakar patel: And, uh, the last thing I'd say is that while these shifts have happened, another shift has happened that is that 30 [00:45:00] years ago, people who are, are considered liberals today didn't really have a dog in the fight. Mm. That the only way you could express yourself is through letters to the editor and so on.[00:45:11] Aakar patel: Mm. Where e- even that space was actually- [00:45:14] Manisha: Curated, edited ... [00:45:14] Aakar patel: um, minded over by, by, yeah, by, by a couple of people who would determine like, uh, what, what would... That has changed. Today, because of the rise of social media and the detachment it has from mainstream media, [00:45:30] the biggest voices, most of the big voices on social media are not the voices from the mainstream media.[00:45:35] Song: Mm. [00:45:36] Aakar patel: They are actually separate, and therefore we have a diversity of view that we didn't have 30 years ago. So while it is absolutely true that, uh, the media has slid towards the position occupied by the BJP with time, particularly the Anglophone media, it is also true that now there is another dog in the fight.[00:45:58] Aakar patel: The last thing I'd say is [00:46:00] that we will see, because mobilization has become slightly easier, much, much more easier because of social media, that the rise of, uh, institutions like the Cockroach Janata Party or the farmers protest before them, or the Shaheen Bagh, uh, protest, are facilitated in the space of this quasi democracy.[00:46:21] Aakar patel: You have some freedoms where you are able to communicate with one another, and you're independent of the narrative that the government is trying to force on you, [00:46:30] whether it is through the old government organs and the, uh, uh, propaganda from DD and so on, or it is from the new media organs, which is also, for the most part, a propaganda with a few exceptions, which are very loud.[00:46:45] Aakar patel: So I don't think it's possible to ignore News Minute. It's not possible to ignore News Laundry or Scroll because of this fact. [00:46:53] Manisha: One, uh, quick follow-up I wanna do, because I just, uh, you know, you started this conversation by saying that when you had... You know, [00:47:00] Modi wanted the approval of English media, uh, and you editors meeting him, and there's this anecdote by Patrick French in his book where he talks about a dinner that Prannoy Roy had organized where Modi comes And in that dinner, he's, uh, it's a bunch of journalists and a few others, and Pranoy Roy is there.[00:47:20] Manisha: And Modi's aggressively attacked on 2002, asked questions, and he kinds of defends himself, and then he gets angry and he walks out of the [00:47:30] dinner. This is, I think, in My India, Patrick French's book. So how much should we blame liberals of your generation for antagonizing Modi to such a level that now we are suffering raids?[00:47:45] Aakar patel: I think my generation is entirely to blame for two things. [00:47:49] Manisha: Hmm. [00:47:49] Aakar patel: One is the fact that we didn't see it, uh, coming. I- if you look at Shekhar's writing today, Akbar, of course, sold out, but there was no sense that this is a slide. [00:48:00] It,[00:48:04] Aakar patel: it ... We were ... We just shrugged our shoulders and, like, assumed that Babri was a blip And we never thought for a moment that the material consequence of this politics being legitimized would take us in a direction that was, uh, very far away from what the Constitution suggested it should be. So, uh, secularism used to be the foundation on the basis of which we engaged with ourselves and [00:48:30] with the world.[00:48:31] Song: Hmm. [00:48:31] Aakar patel: Yesterday, Jaishankar spoke about the fact that during the Nehruvian years, India did not establish contact with the state of Israel, which is true. India did not establish contact with the state of South Africa either. [00:48:45] Raman: Hmm. [00:48:45] Aakar patel: And there was a reason for that, that we felt that we were, as the inheritors of a particular form of struggle, guardians of those values.[00:48:55] Aakar patel: My generation did not understand that [00:49:00] accommodating communalism into d- democratic politics was dangerous for one main reason, which is that it is easy to mobilize on the basis of hate anywhere in the world. If you look at the demagoguery of the last decade across the world, whether in Hungary or Turkey or the US or in India, it is based on and stands on a foundation of hatred.[00:49:27] Aakar patel: Our problem is that [00:49:30] our hatred is not outward-focused like it is in the case of Trumps who doesn't like- [00:49:34] Manisha: Yeah ... [00:49:35] Aakar patel: the immigrants and so on. It's, it's inward facing. [00:49:37] Manisha: Yeah. [00:49:38] Aakar patel: And what most Indians may not have internalized and what my generation should have is that the Jews in the Weimar Republic were less than 1% of the population.[00:49:49] Aakar patel: We have 200 million Muslims. You cannot damage such a substantial part of your population without damaging yourself. Yes, absolutely. We did not really understand that. And I think had [00:50:00] we been able to internalize it, our attitude towards the BJP and Modi, particularly after 2002, but mainly after 1992, should have been much more strategic than it was.[00:50:12] Aakar patel: But like I said, we only, we merely shrugged our shoulders and said, "Oh, this is a, another party." And we faced, you know, communalism before. No, this is new And I think we are reaping the fruit of that shrugging of shoulder and reaping the benefit that comes to [00:50:30] those democratic spaces that mobilize on the basis of it.[00:50:34] Manisha: So would you say, like, treating them as people who can be ignored or snubbed rather than ... Like, when you say strategic, what do you mean? [00:50:40] Aakar patel: I don't really know. You would have had to get very sharp minds together. Civil society has one very good thing about them, that they know how it is that issues are to be addressed.[00:50:52] Song: Hmm. [00:50:52] Aakar patel: How do you move the needle? When I say things like, what is a power mapping analysis? Many people in media or the general [00:51:00] public will not know, but people in civil society will know. Uh, how it is that you move the needle on any particular, uh, issue. Who are the people of, uh, of influence that you must target?[00:51:11] Aakar patel: What are the externalities of this? Should we look at the courts in a particular way? All of that. N- we didn't, we didn't think through any of that because the assumption was that this was normal. And I think that is the reason why there was very little internal opposition to the, the place [00:51:30] we are today, where, uh, the media, because it is inured to violence, news become olds.[00:51:38] Aakar patel: When you have lynching for the first time, and we read about it, uh, in 2015, u- Akhlak, 10 years on, the lynchings haven't stopped. Yeah. It's just that the chief sub sitting on the desk says that th- there's too much of this stuff. [00:51:53] Shardool : Hmm. [00:51:54] Aakar patel: Send it to page five. Routine. And then send it to page seven. Yeah. And then it goes away.[00:51:58] Aakar patel: And so the media have become [00:52:00] inured to that violence. We did not assume, my generation, that it would come to this. [00:52:06] Manisha: In fact, that's so true- Um- ... that lynching stories have become, like, routine. Like, something very harrowing has to happen for a lynching story to make it to front page. [00:52:13] Aakar patel: Or it has to be recorded.[00:52:14] Aakar patel: I think that those are the two things. Yeah, it has [00:52:15] Manisha: to [00:52:17] Aakar patel: be recorded. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But we, we, we, we no longer flinch from news that would have been considered to be unacceptable and would have had many strong voices having their opinion, uh, publicly put out. [00:52:30] Uh, now- In the same way that we would have in, say, 1995 [00:52:35] Manisha: Mm.[00:52:35] Manisha: Uh- One quickly, quick thing I wanna just ask you and then I wanna move to Raman. What is power mapping? 'Cause even I don't know what power mapping is. [00:52:43] Aakar patel: Basically, let's say you have tindi for lunch. That's, that's what mommy tells you. Lunch. Now, I really like it, but you don't want tindi for lunch. What you want is something else.[00:52:53] Aakar patel: You want pizza or you want aloo or whatever. So you have to figure out how it is to get mommy to change her [00:53:00] mind and not just throw her, a chappal at you. [00:53:03] Song: Okay. [00:53:03] Aakar patel: So this would involve lo- looking at who are the people, who are the stakeholders in this. There's your sister, there's the neighbor's kid who's coming in for lunch together, and you mobilize these people in order, uh, to put pressure on the person who makes the difference, in this case, mommy, so that tindi becomes, you know- Pizza[00:53:22] Aakar patel: uh, uh, pizza or chicken. Yeah. And the, the, the, uh, this is the simplest, uh, graphic of, [00:53:30] of how complex things might be changed. So there is one, uh, example that Amnesty has on making sure that the mother of an African president, I forget who at the moment, was approached by the human rights organizations to make sure that her son did something, and she was, uh, she, she felt strongly enough about it to be able to do so.[00:53:55] Aakar patel: Constantine, uh, came into Christianity and so did Rome because his [00:54:00] mom, uh, forced him to. That or also the story goes- Mm-hmm ... on his deathbed I think it was. Mm-hmm. So I think that, that... But bringing that down to structure, looking at who are the judges on the benches, which courts are more, uh, uh, amenable to- Mm[00:54:15] Aakar patel: uh, fundamental rights and so on, and then deploying that. But there's no chance in hell that the media in India is gonna do that. [00:54:22] Song: Yeah. [00:54:22] Aakar patel: One of the sorrier things, I don't know whether I'm digressing, is that the quality of our media, if you p- because we are in the Anglophone world [00:54:30] and that sphere, we can compare our, uh, material.[00:54:33] Song: Yeah. [00:54:33] Aakar patel: We lack not only in the minor things, the sort of hygienic stuff, language and so on, a- at which we are poor and that might be excused because of the fact that it's not native to us, this, this tongue. But also purely from the point of view of the material and how deep it is, we are... It's terrible. [00:54:54] Song: Mm.[00:54:54] Aakar patel: The quality of news gathering is horrible. The quali- third rate. The quality of, [00:55:00] uh, opinion writing is third rate, if not fourth rate. And I think that, um, one, one good thing that social media has brought is that people like me... Like, once you become a columnist in, like, you stay, you stay a columnist no matter what, what, what stuff you, what, what, what, uh, quality the stuff you put out is.[00:55:22] Aakar patel: And I think that social media has changed at least some bits of it, where the same old people are not banging on about the same old things as they used to be. [00:55:30] [00:55:30] Manisha: Mm. Raman sir, state of the media. And you know what, um, Aakar said about power mapping? That's also, like, something that the opposition has to think of.[00:55:41] Manisha: How do you strategize? How do you, uh, get certain things moving for you? Who are the people that can shake things up for you? Weaknesses of the BJP that you can exploit. I think farmers to some extent did that well in the farmers protest. Very organized. They really kind of cornered him to the point that finally he had to say [00:56:00] sorry and he had to say that, "You didn't get me.[00:56:01] Manisha: I too was doing this for your benefit and I'm sorry it's my mistake I couldn't communicate it properly." So I think that was a huge very strategic way in which they worked. And disparate groups, it's not as if farmers, they've never been a collective as such. Castes, different, different in terms of, uh, economics also.[00:56:16] Manisha: The workers, the Mazdoor, the, versus the Kisan, like all of these people came together. So, um- Do you see the opposition doing this? Like, do you think that is one of the failures of the opposition today, that there seems to be, like, a lack of [00:56:30] strategic thinking? Just in terms of Aam Aadmi party only, you're seeing maximum Congress and AAP kind of go at each other over this, whatever it is.[00:56:39] Manisha: But rather than, BJP doesn't have to say much about CPG. It is the Congress that's at the forefront of saying that, "ये तो केजरीवाल का whatever जो भी है." [00:56:49] Raman: So, so my hope, uh, you know, is, uh, placed on two things. Hmm. One is Uh, I think the first salvo is going to come, [00:57:00] uh, I'm hoping maybe, uh, it won't, but first salvo, which is, uh, is gonna come from, uh, RSS mouth speak Panchajanya organizer.[00:57:10] Raman: They don't, uh, uh, you know, like social media so much. But I have seen, uh, you know, in 38 years of my career, the BJP, uh, or, uh, the RSS in the right wing, anything that happens... So, so, so if, if the BJP, if the Modi is going to get out [00:57:30] of favor, the first salvo is going to come from, uh, you know, Panchajanya or, uh, organizer.[00:57:35] Raman: I don't see opposition, uh, you know, coming up with any kind of strategy, uh, to, uh, you know, to really shake, uh, Modi's position. Uh, and this, uh, so, so, but yes, once, once something comes from the RSS, then, uh, the media is going to, uh, you know, uh, wheel around it, then the opposition is also going [00:58:00] to get around it, and then, then the churning will happen.[00:58:03] Raman: So, uh, so which can-- which may or may not go against the BJP. And the second thing, um, which, uh, my hope is, uh, democratization of, uh, the media. Mainstream media is more or less, you know, that word is an abuse today. So, so pe- uh, so people, uh, you know, take pride in, uh, this fact, uh, you know, telling that, "I don't watch [00:58:30] TV media, TV news anymore."[00:58:32] Raman: Hmm. Uh, so I think the social media, which has come up in a big way, uh, is, uh, my second hope, which can, uh, you know, uh, which can fill in the role of the opposition. I do not see opposition, uh... And, and also, you know, partly I don't entirely blame the opposition. Even our media, they also black out, uh, you know, whatever the opposition does.[00:58:57] Raman: So they also do not give the true picture of the [00:59:00] opposition. So I think the social media is something, uh, that, uh, can come up in a big way, uh, if any change that is going to happen in our politics, in politics of power. [00:59:12] Manisha: Okay, Shardul, your comments, and then we'll go to Akar to wrap up. [00:59:15] Shardool : So I had a thought about that liberal thing.[00:59:19] Shardool : I think the old- [00:59:20] Manisha: Liberal thing, as in liberal media not being, uh, favorable to [00:59:23] Shardool : the BJP? Yeah, liberal media and sort of intellectual English-speaking, uh, part of our society. Hmm. So the thing is, like, [00:59:30] I feel that they were also very insulated Like India has always had inequality, but back then because of lack of mediums, like there[00:59:39] Shardool : It's not that it was deliberate. I'm not, I'm not implying that. But what I'm trying to say is, like there is an old axiom, when your skin is not the game, after a point the apathy is the answer. Like you can give a shit for that long. Like everybody has shit going in their life, going on in their life. And the English-speaking, the intellectual sort of quote, unquote [01:00:00] section was very insulated from the realities of India.[01:00:03] Reel from Protest: Mm. [01:00:04] Shardool : Like BJP, what BJP has done, this BJP is focused sort of, uh, uh, channeling of that communalism, that anger in that society. But that anger and that inequality and that, that impetus to take your pound of flesh if you get the chance, well, always existed. Like anybody who has lived in small town India, you know it doesn't matter who you are.[01:00:28] Shardool : If se- two people get a [01:00:30] chance, they will snatch away things from you. Like I lived in reality that police was afraid to go on ghust at night because they will also be robbed. [01:00:38] Song: Hmm. [01:00:39] Shardool : Be- 'cause being policemen would not matter. So that section, that elite section was very insulated, and th- the things always get worse before they get better.[01:00:50] Shardool : So now the, this other side, which is completely inhospitable and like not thinking and not accepting and very bigoted and [01:01:00] driven by perceived or real, you know, wounded history and slights which may or may not have been there. Which, which if you think of it on individual basis, you think it's ... Like if I come to you and say, "Uh, th- this neighbor had stolen some scooter from my great-grandfather and I wanna take revenge," you will say like, "There are better things to do in life."[01:01:21] Shardool : But these people are fighting s- real or imagined slights happened six or seven centuries ago. Nobody gives a shit, but they do. So they're crashing into [01:01:30] things and making a mess, but I don't know how it will turn out. But that also is a part of it, that insulation has been broken down by the worst people.[01:01:37] Raman: Hmm. [01:01:38] Shardool : Social media helps, like, like Aakar said. Talent and w- different kind of writers and commentators come up, but their diction, their language may not be that A- accustomed or familiar to the people who already hold the places. So that also is a very interesting and- Mm-hmm ... aspect of this new age. [01:01:58] Manisha: So I, I don't know how much of this [01:02:00] elitism thing, you know, I buy, and I've been thinking a lot about this, uh, in fact, having discussions with a friend also, that if you look at our, um, you know, founding fathers today, foreign educated elite, well-to-do, and I think India needed that elitism at that point to kind of rise above our petty differences of what, you know, where we could have gone.[01:02:24] Manisha: So I feel this last 12 years where we've made it kind of fashionable to say elite this, elite that, English [01:02:30] education, whatever, I think these are actually very valuable things in the country that did give us a very strong, uh, founding base. You know, Nehru was looking outside, and I think maybe he should have looked outside.[01:02:40] Manisha: No, [01:02:40] Shardool : but- So- ... Nehru was not insulated. He was- Yeah ... v- very familiar and- [01:02:44] Manisha: I mean, of course, I- if you're leading the freedom struggle, you have to be ... You can't be insulated in that sense. But I feel this English education or even elite ideas, not necessarily bad things. No- Maybe, maybe taking things for ... Maybe the generation that came after that within the Congress didn't work [01:03:00] hard to spread these elitist ideas enough.[01:03:03] Manisha: Like, once we acquired the idea that we are secular, we didn't work hard enough to then make it a mass thing, like Gandhi did Go out and then really work hard among people to make it a popular thing, whatever, even though he used Ram for it So [01:03:15] Shardool : by elitism, I didn't mean English-speaking per se. Yeah. The gatekeeping.[01:03:19] Manisha: Yeah. [01:03:20] Shardool : The gatekeeping was so hard, and it still is. But like 10, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, you were not allowed to enter the place if you don't fit. [01:03:29] Manisha: I [01:03:30] mean, I feel today, especially when, uh, you know, being educated is almost like every person who's aspiring for an education is called an anti-national. If you look at the colleges, actually when you meet students in universities, you can see a clear difference in how they look at BJP versus somebody who's not, and especially the differences in PhDs- Yes[01:03:47] Manisha: versus, you know. And I think there's a clear difference where once you educate yourself, you're not going to have that kind of bandwidth for a love jihad- ... for a, you know, let's make sure that all live-in relationships are approved by the [01:04:00] state. Natural progression of any educated person is to actually move away from some of these RSS- Yes[01:04:05] Manisha: fundamentals. And I think in that sense, maybe we need more elites, educated elites for [01:04:09] Shardool : Yes, yes [01:04:10] Manisha: And maybe it has to be returned back to not looking at it as the worst thing out there- Yeah ... to educate yourself, to aspire for, you know, a certain sort of a worldview or a lifestyle. I wanna, uh, we know we have to leave at 12:00.[01:04:23] Manisha: Aakar, if you wanna jump in on this elitism thing. And, uh- Yeah ... my last question to you, there's a meme doing [01:04:30] the rounds where you have Ambani, Adani, uh, Modi and Amit Shah with those, you know, uh, British wigs. Seen that. West India Company. [01:04:39] Aakar patel: Yeah.[01:04:46] Manisha: So why are Gujjus ruling us, A, and... Ruining [01:04:46] Aakar patel: us. What is it about Gujaratis that they have- We have always ruled this country. [01:04:49] Manisha: We [01:04:49] Aakar patel: have. So if you look at the Anglicization of this country. So Charles II gets Bombay in 1660-something, and, um, as [01:05:00] dowry, and the English get Thane and, and Bombay. Um, and the Marathis get access to that first.[01:05:09] Aakar patel: But by the time-- So Gandhi comes back in 1915. By the time he's there, there's already a sense that this place is ripe for the taking, and he takes it. And Jinnah's there, who takes the other bit. Both of them come from mercantile sets of people. We are able to dis- not, not the Patels, unfortunately, because we are more teet.[01:05:27] Aakar patel: But they are able to dissociate themselves [01:05:30] from the stronger emotions that people feel and power map in a way that the others cannot. And I don't know whether we can attribute that to culture. I don't think we can to genetics, but I think that they learn that pretty early on, that to, to, to engage with the world, to bring yourself forward, you have to deal with other people.[01:05:47] Aakar patel: That's the only way. [01:05:47] Song: Hmm. [01:05:48] Aakar patel: And dealing with other people is what they know how to do. Uh, to, to the full... Uh, a-and I think that the, it's played out in exactly the way they wanted. You might, [01:06:00] you might accuse them of many things. I don't think they see it as being a bad thing that you've got these four people, four and a half, we can't, we can't leave out Jay-[01:06:09] Aakar patel: Mehta running, uh, running the BCCI. But I think that they would see this as being a natural state of things, that we are more competent, which is true, than, than the rest of you, and let us run, run this country. You know, uh, Pakistan lost its Gujarati a few months after its founding and see where they've gone.[01:06:28] Aakar patel: That, that might be the view that they might [01:06:30] take. To the first question, I think that is important for all of us, and including those of us who may not have money, to look at the external world and see what's out there. 5% of Indians have, uh, passports. It is wrong to assume that the rest of the world also, uh, has people, h-has families where a man kills his daughter for falling in love.[01:06:50] Aakar patel: It doesn't happen in most parts of the world. [01:06:53] Shardool : Hmm. Yeah. [01:06:54] Aakar patel: We have to ask ourselves why we are in a particular, uh, state, why we are the way we are, and that cannot [01:07:00] come without wide travel Uh, elitism, if you will. [01:07:04] Shardool : Hmm. [01:07:04] Aakar patel: Um, and the second bit is there is no, there was no other option for them to have written the constitution they did.[01:07:10] Aakar patel: So Nepal was a Hindu Rashtra till 2008. It, it had two elements which were specifically Hindu. One, all of the executive power would flow from a Kshatriya king, the Chhetri dynasty. Second is this king would have in his court a Mulk Purohit who would guide him on, on faith-based affairs. There was nothing else.[01:07:28] Aakar patel: There was nothing about pure Hindu [01:07:30] texts in the sense that women cannot, uh, uh, uh, read or write, or the Shudra community can't do this, that, or the other. Because you can't do that in the world of 2026. [01:07:40] Song: Hmm. [01:07:40] Aakar patel: And the only option that a modern state has is to be inclusive and to be open and to be liberal and to be, uh, pluralistic, uh, and secular in the way that our constitution is, but our government and our behavior now is not.[01:07:55] Manisha: Great. Thanks so much, Aakar, for joining us. Please give us some [01:08:00] recommendations before we let you go. [01:08:01] Aakar patel: I have- What should [01:08:02] Manisha: we read, [01:08:02] Aakar patel: watch? ... a book out. Look at this. Wow. [01:08:05] Manisha: Yay, discovery. [01:08:06] Aakar patel: It's a graphic... Wow. Yeah. [01:08:08] Shardool : Oh, nice. Graphic novel. [01:08:10] Aakar patel: That's right. Most of the work has been done by my co-author, a pen-pencil drawer.[01:08:15] Aakar patel: But I can claim- [01:08:15] Manisha: He's [01:08:15] Aakar patel: amazing. [01:08:16] Manisha: Yeah ... [01:08:16] Aakar patel: a joint, uh, credit for it. I'll do a Modi and toot my own horn. Please buy, beg, borrow, steal. Download. [01:08:25] Manisha: Absolutely. And when you're in- And there is one more [01:08:27] Aakar patel: thing. Yeah. There's, there's one more thing. There's a YouTube channel by [01:08:30] this guy called Glenn Dienes, spelt, uh, like diesel but with an N at the end, who's quite good with the, uh, interviews he does on global affairs, including Iran, Ukraine, and China, and he's worth, uh, seeking out and listening to.[01:08:44] Manisha: So Glenn Dienes? [01:08:46] Aakar patel: That's right. [01:08:47] Manisha: Okay. Shall definitely listen. And w- when you're in Delhi, please, we'd like you to have you in the News Library Studio- Absolutely ... talk about your book. Look forward to that. Indeed. Thank you so much. [01:08:56] Aakar patel: Thank you very much for having me. [01:08:57] Manisha: Okay. With that, uh, this [01:09:00] was a fruitful conversation, if I may say so myself.[01:09:03] Manisha: I enjoyed listening to all of you. Any parting thoughts on this? No? I mean, not parting thoughts, but ending thoughts on what we've just discussed. No, I'll give parting thoughts. 43- Who knows, I get hit [01:09:10] Shardool : by a truck [01:09:12] Manisha: outside. 439999... 4399 days. [01:09:15] Shardool : Um... [01:09:17] Raman: No, the parting thought, uh, you know- Hmm ... could be that, uh, before 2029- [01:09:23] Manisha: Hmm[01:09:24] Raman: uh, I think, uh, as the things are going, I think Modi is targeting, [01:09:30] uh, you know, to have this, uh, law passed on one nation, one election. [01:09:34] Manisha: Yeah. [01:09:35] Raman: And, uh, also the delimitation. Delimitation. Uh, where he requires states assemblies support. So he is just Uh, you know, trying to reach that stage. So let us see whether he'll be able to reach- Yeah[01:09:50] Raman: before 2029 or not. [01:09:52] Manisha: And with 19 TMC MPs moving, NDA is gonna be stronger. [01:09:57] Raman: Huh. So, so see the, the, the churning [01:10:00] that is happening- Yeah ... in Rajya Sabha, so many defections. [01:10:02] Manisha: Yeah. [01:10:02] Raman: Aam Aadmi Party now. Now this TMC, it's happening in Lok Sabha also, so. So let's see. [01:10:08] Manisha: And honestly, with TMC, it's just disgusting to see.[01:10:13] Manisha: I mean, okay, B- we keep criticizing BJP for whatever misuse it's doing with agencies, but someone like a Sayoni Ghosh who was I mean, these are not people who were to then today say that Mamata was not listening to us. Dude, you were there front, center, [01:10:30] next to her, y- given key positions, given key space.[01:10:34] Manisha: Now, simply because they're out of power, you've quickly turned... I mean, it's disgusting to see what's happening with TMC. So, so- And this has to be asked, the leader also has to take responsibility for this, both Mamata Banerjee and Abhishek Banerjee with, with some TMC leaders saying that we don't wanna work under Abhishek.[01:10:50] Manisha: I mean, what was the glue for your party? As a leader, you also have to ask that question that what was, what was keeping you together? That- No, [01:10:57] Raman: Abhishek is an alibi. Mm. I, I [01:11:00] mean, I think it is in, in, in the Bengal politics when, when, when, uh, the left went down, uh, leaders, uh, many leaders along with, uh, you know, this cadre moved to, uh- BJP[01:11:15] Raman: uh, Mamata. [01:11:15] Manisha: Mamata, many [01:11:16] Raman: to BJP. Okay. Now, uh, and some of them have moved to B- BJP also. I mean, somebody, uh, you know, who was there in the last HaptA, he had also told that- Mm ... some of them had moved to BJP. So they move and block. [01:11:29] Manisha: [01:11:30] Mm. [01:11:30] Raman: And, and I think Abhishek, as an outsider, I see he's just an alibi. So if you just, uh, track their history, that's what happens, and it's, it's really disgusting.[01:11:40] Manisha: It's very [01:11:41] Raman: dis- I mean, uh, you have come up with so many laws, anti-defection law, this law, that, but they find you cannot codify human behavior. I mean, they find a way, uh, to, you know, uh, circumvent it and, and, and, uh, you know, uh, uh, defect to another party. So I think, uh, uh, there has to be a [01:12:00] law in black and white.[01:12:01] Song: Yeah. [01:12:01] Raman: He either, uh... So, so the moment you change party and you are an MLA or MP, you have to resign. Simple. You ha- have to give up your seat. [01:12:12] Manisha: Hmm. I mean- So see, [01:12:13] Raman: see what is happening now, uh- ... I don't [01:12:14] Manisha: understand how voters don't feel disgusted by this. I [01:12:17] Raman: mean how- In Tamil Nadu. Huh. Tamil Nadu's AIADMK is moving to Vijay.[01:12:21] Raman: AIADMK MLAs who won- [01:12:24] Manisha: Huh ... [01:12:24] Raman: some, I think they also, uh- AIADMK ... are moving to Vijay's party. [01:12:28] Shardool : So- So [01:12:29] Raman: it's [01:12:30] happening all over ... [01:12:31] Shardool : it's, so, uh, we discussed it, this opposition topic in Church Last week, and while the d- discussion was happening, this thought came into my mind, like the, the, so the premise is like power is a very fascinating thing.[01:12:44] Shardool : Like it changes you, and we spoke in terms of Modi, but the m- those who lust for it and want it are the most ill-suited for it. It's a, it's a strange phenomena. Those who are given it by chance, you find are the ones who deserve and exercise it well. [01:13:00] Well enough, at least- Mm ... historically. And about TMC, the, it reveals something about Bengal elite political society.[01:13:07] Shardool : Elite, I mean like the power, who have taken power and power, tools of power That it always moves en masse, which means that it doesn't have the stomach to fight the power. It always need...[01:13:26] Shardool : It feels like that. [01:13:27] Manisha: Hmm. [01:13:28] Shardool : You have no [01:13:30] loyalty but with the tools of power, key access. [01:13:33] Manisha: Yeah. And again, like these are not people who can complain of being sidelined by the party. Raghav Chadha, Sayoni Ghosh again. Uh, yeah, all you guys were like made... You were given enough. What more did you want from your [01:13:44] Shardool : party?[01:13:44] Shardool : And they're relatively new, and they were faces, and they were stars [01:13:49] Manisha: of their party. And they were allowed to be stars. They were allowed- Yeah ... given that space, you know? But no. Modi is not gonna give a Tejswi Surya any, like, you have to be, you know, where you are. But- But these guys were-[01:13:58] Raman: No, instead of, instead of becoming, you [01:14:00] know, political star, uh, you know, uh, in their own league by doing hard work- [01:14:05] Manisha: Hmm ... [01:14:06] Raman: they just wanted, they just want to ride, you know, the- Yeah ... somebody who[01:14:16] Raman: is already in the power. Coattails of power, yes. Want to ride that fame, and they, they want [01:14:17] Shardool : to become famous, uh, through that. Raghav I, like, I- [01:14:18] Manisha: But why, you know, I feel voters also, dude, it's your responsibility also. At some point- Yes ... stop voting these turncoats, man. It's disgusting. It's a mockery of what democracy should be.[01:14:27] Shardool : Yeah, transactional. And I think an appeal sort of [01:14:30] came into my mind, like to fight the fight when you are at a disadvantage, you need that specific type of temperament and stomach, and we in News Laundry have that stomach, but we need resources and- [01:14:40] Raman: I think like CJP, somebody is going to come up on, uh, you know, social media and run a campaign, #NoTo, SayNoToDefectors.[01:14:46] Raman: Don't, don't vote to[01:14:51] Raman: defectors. So, so maybe... I mean, something has to come up, either from the people, from the voters or, uh, or, uh, [01:15:00] you know, some, uh, government which really sincerely thinks that is a menace. So they should come up with a solid law so that they stop defecting. [01:15:10] Shardool : So the- [01:15:11] Manisha: Continuing what Shardul said, we at News Laundry are not defectors.[01:15:14] Manisha: We are firmly on the side of public interest, and whichever party comes to power, we will be questioning them. So expect no defections here. [01:15:22] Shardool : Yeah, yeah, and defections, no- I, I, what I was try- what I was saying was that just stom- having a stomach or tendency and, you know, impetus that I will [01:15:30] fight is not enough.[01:15:30] Shardool : Not enough. We need resources. And I personally, again, live by a rule, pain we endure, faulty weaponry we do not. [01:15:37] Manisha: Hmm. [01:15:37] Shardool : That requires resources to subscribe. [01:15:39] Manisha: Yes, subscribe to News Laundry. Make sure we have endurance. With that, let's just quickly get into the letters of the week, which have been curated by Raman sir.[01:15:48] Manisha: The first one is by Sajay. "While I'm impressed with the rise of CJP, I find it a bit disconcerting when some of their members try to diss MPs or MLAs who are not educated. Kamaraj, one of the greatest chief [01:16:00] ministers of Tamil Nadu, never completed his schooling. He was the architect of the midday meal scheme in Tamil Nadu.[01:16:06] Manisha: MGR enhanced the midday meal scheme by providing eggs as part of the midday meal scheme. So to make education as a benchmark for people in public life might make us lose a lot of people who can make a marked difference in people's lives." [01:16:19] Shardool : I agree. [01:16:20] Manisha: I agree, but I think it's a very specific, uh, dissatisfaction that people have that your education minister needs to be educated [01:16:30] and at least educated about what needs to be done for this education system to be better.[01:16:34] Manisha: It is really in a mess. So I think the, the frustration I'm hearing a lot of CJP protesters also say this, ""Padha likha koi ho taki jo padhe likhon ki dukh hai wo samajh paye." [01:16:44] Shardool : Yeah, yeah. "Ya [01:16:45] Manisha: toh aap khud ho utna ya nahi ho toh sun lo logon ko." Call delegations, call experts, call people who know what they...[01:16:51] Manisha: You know? Call all these CBSE teachers who've been saying that we did not want this. [01:16:54] Shardool : Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And like our system sort of trains people to take better tests [01:17:00] and marginal literacy. Hmm. Like you see the performance levels, like seventh, eighth standard kids are, were not able to solve third, second standard math questions.[01:17:08] Manisha: Hmm. [01:17:09] Shardool : So goes for Hindi, English languages. So it, we just training people to pass exams, not really educating them, and that, that I think is what implied in what CJP is saying. [01:17:19] Manisha: Next email from Madan. "Listening to Manisha's interview with teachers, one got the impression that the youth of today are more knowledgeable, informed politically and not influenced by propaganda.[01:17:29] Manisha: But [01:17:30] I think this applies to only a small percentage who are mostly English-speaking and digitally aware. While talking to young people at gym sessions and swimming schedule, where mostly young people preparing for some physical, uh, like for test for the police or the army, uh, or come from rural or non-English speaking backgrounds, insist that only solution to India's problem is total annihilations of Muslim mullahs, as they call them," he said.[01:17:52] Manisha: Uh, your views? I don't think one can generalize. I mean, a generation is also a big ... [01:18:00] It's not a monolith. No. No, no generation. Like youth cannot be ... Uh, there are youths who are doing Gau Raksha also. There are youths who are Bajrang Dal also and, you know, stopping couples from- Yeah ... meeting on Valentine's Day.[01:18:10] Manisha: Then there are youths who are cracking, uh, examinations. There are youths who are finding, investigating the government. So it's a mono- it's not a monolith, but I do feel that with digital, uh, awareness, it is difficult to fool young people for a long time on some core issues. Like the, the hyper-awareness and the aspiration that comes with digital, [01:18:30] uh, sort of lives that we live, where even the richest person's life can enter our feed, you know?[01:18:36] Shardool : Yeah. [01:18:37] Manisha: You, you get a inside view into so many things that you may never have before. I think that is one specific dynamic here which makes- Yeah ... the youth more restless than before. [01:18:46] Shardool : The other thing is- I [01:18:46] Manisha: mean, youth is always restless, but this one can be more restless 'cause of- [01:18:49] Shardool : Be- be- because this sense of not being able to do or have what you want increases- Yeah[01:18:57] Shardool : when you see the extreme levels of wealth [01:19:00] at the palm of your hand and you can't get a job. [01:19:02] Manisha: And that also leads to the scam economy. One of the most vibrant- Yeah ... economies of our country is the scam economy. [01:19:07] Shardool : We have always been scammers. Like everybody is trying to [01:19:10] Manisha: scam. So a lot of ... And a lot of young people.[01:19:13] Manisha: And again, it's that thing of what you, you know what you cannot have today very clearly as opposed to earlier. [01:19:19] Shardool : Yeah. I mean, like, uh, and the other thing about youth and English is like there are too many people in India. Somebody was saying, like it was a very friendly conversation in a Discord server a couple of months ago, and they were saying that [01:19:30] North Indians are all like that.[01:19:31] Shardool : So I said like, "You just talked about s- over 768 million people. That's more than the population of Europe." [01:19:38] Manisha: And different languages, different culture. [01:19:40] Shardool : You, you cannot generalize. [01:19:41] Manisha: Yeah, you can't at all Um, Sneha Pai says, "Hi NL team. I just finished watching Sarthak's interview with Manisha. Just now I'm compelled to write this mail.[01:19:50] Manisha: Blown away by his clear-mindedness and grit at his young age. He gave me immense hope for this generation that will shape our future at a time when I have more or less given up on seeing any [01:20:00] meaningful change. I'm grateful to NL for their very focused, detailed interview with him and what went wrong with the system, how he and his friends with expert support were able to dig up errors, and the sheer carelessness of our system in acknowledging the same.[01:20:13] Manisha: When he spoke about freedom internet gave him or others to speak up, I was impressed that in a space that is so often used to hate, belittle, bully each other, there are youngsters like him who have the potential to bring about positive change online. My child is seven, and being part of the medical profession myself, I always have told my husband [01:20:30] I do not wish her to follow my footsteps.[01:20:32] Manisha: The recent leaks and the aftermath of the children put me off this idea even more. But Sarthak's view truly gave me hope, and maybe if she doesn't wanna pursue, I will guide her and give her positive reinforcement instead of just seeing the dark clouds as I often do nowadays. I've become quite pessimistic at the grand a- old age of 36."[01:20:49] Manisha: Please. [01:20:50] Shardool : Yeah, right. [01:20:50] Manisha: It is a very-- You cannot be pessimistic. If [01:20:53] Shardool : you are old, then I'm ancient. [01:20:54] Manisha: At 56 you can be pessimistic. "Always kudos to team NL and just about six months into my [01:21:00] membership, I'm once again glad that I've completely quit mainstream media. I know this exceeds the limit, but I don't mind if it is not read out aloud."[01:21:07] Manisha: We had to read this out loud because honestly, like, people have to stop being cynical. [01:21:13] Shardool : Yeah, yeah. [01:21:14] Manisha: There's no reason for us to be cynical, especially those of us who have the privilege of, uh, jobs, you know, things broadly going in our direction. Yeah. Because you see people doing so many things against all odds.[01:21:29] Manisha: I mean, in Sarthak's [01:21:30] case also, he's privileged in that sense, but you know, even when things were going, you could just kind of give up and say, "Okay, marks, " नहीं आए. System ही खराब है. Percentage नहीं मिली. Revaluation खराब है." Or you can take the other route and say, "Just let me try a little harder and dig.[01:21:45] Manisha: Just let me, like, say no. I'm not accepting this." And I think it's very important for people to say, "I'm not accepting this." [01:21:51] Shardool : Yes, and, and this could sort of generate- [01:21:52] Manisha: With hope, you know? With, with- Yeah ... [01:21:54] Shardool : yeah. It's important because the moment you become a complete cynic, like, that sense of victimhood comes in- Yeah[01:21:59] Shardool : and you [01:22:00] are very susceptible to finding someone to blame. Yeah. Which the, especially BJP is using these days though [01:22:08] Manisha: Vedhe says, "Bugs in podcast player after app updated. I've been trying in vain to listen to NL Hafta on the app for the past two, three weeks after it's updated. This is on iPhone. I've tried everything, uninstalling, reinstalling, but every time I try to play the latest episode on the player, it'll only play the same episode."[01:22:25] Manisha: Bunch of, uh, letters we've got on the app. App thing, yeah. "Extremely annoying." Srinath says, [01:22:30] uh, "Your latest iOS app update says 'Improved podcast player performance.' It has improved so much that when I click on Hafta, it plays Charcha. When I click on Charcha, it plays-- still plays Charcha. To listen to Hafta episodes, I have to open your webpage on a browser and do the login.[01:22:43] Manisha: UX gaya tel lene. Please fix." Absolutely, we have to fix this. We've given a lot of pain to people for no reason with [01:22:49] Raman: this. In fact, there are, uh, there are two, three more letters about it, so- Yeah. [01:22:54] Shardool : About, about the app, [01:22:54] Manisha: yes. SNA also says, "This is about NL app. I installed the new iOS update last week. When I clicked to listen to Hafta, the app [01:23:00] was playing Charcha."[01:23:01] Manisha: Common complaint. So all these app complaints- I think this update was the last week ... even though I have not read two others, I'm gonna just forward this to our team right away and make sure that your listening experience is smooth, and we don't put you through so much pain. Ek toh subscribe karein, upar se hum pain bhi de rahein.[01:23:15] Manisha: Very bad hona. Yeah. So we'll fix this as soon as possible, and hopefully this should be fixed for this, uh, week's episode. With that, let's get the recommendations of the week. Raman sir, would you like to tell us what to listen to, what to watch, what to read? [01:23:29] Raman: Well, [01:23:30] I, uh, will say watch, uh, FIFA World Cup. Uh, it happens once in four years.[01:23:38] Raman: I remember my-- bought my first color TV in 1986 when I wanted to watch Maradona. Uh, so way back in 1986 when, uh, Argentina had won the World Cup. So since then I have been very keenly watching it. Uh, I know it's going to be very, very tough for us, uh, you [01:24:00] know, uh, getting up in the night, uh, because it's happening in US, Canada and Mexico.[01:24:06] Raman: Timings do not match, but still, uh, I think those who can catch up with FIFA, they should. And the second recommendation is a good, uh, you know, um, um, unemployment. Uh, we-- when we were talking about Modi, unemployment, I think is something which is really, which has begun to pick up, is 14% of [01:24:30] our people are unemployed right now in the country.[01:24:33] Raman: So Hindu has done one full page today. Uh, you know, the picture is a telltale. So, uh, I think one should, uh, re-read that one-page article. Uh, the picture is about, uh, you know, uh, the, the, th-this, uh, young people who have come for the test of constable in UP. Uh, you know, it's, it's a picture of a, a [01:25:00] railway station and which is, uh, the platform is full of people.[01:25:04] Raman: And, and the article which really sums up, uh, you know, the situation of unemployment- Hmm ... uh, very nicely. Uh, it, it has come out today. Uh, so- [01:25:15] Shardool : Oh, you're talking about some 30,000 places 28 [01:25:18] Raman: lakh Uh-huh. [01:25:19] Shardool : Right. [01:25:20] Manisha: Right. Shardul, your recommendation. [01:25:22] Shardool : There's so much going on, but I have three recommendations which like, like gentle and, you know, [01:25:30] important, like one of, uh, our colleagues, Basant, has done a story.[01:25:34] Shardool : Please do read it about UP government. It was published yesterday. That should tell you like be-behind all this hoopla of culture and all that, what is going on. [01:25:44] Reel from Protest: Hmm. [01:25:44] Shardool : Money is being made. The second is a very interesting article I stumbled upon because it-- and I was very happy to. It's written by a British ecologist, uh, Thomas Crowther in Guardian- Hmm.[01:25:54] Shardool : Hmm ... a couple of weeks ago. It's, could nature itself hold the solution to climate [01:26:00] change? It's very-- And he advocates for, like, I'll give you just crux, for forests, like big, not plant. Forests, big trees, and I'm like very happy. Half the listeners would remember if they do, that I love trees more than animals.[01:26:12] Reel from Protest: Hmm. [01:26:13] Shardool : So I was very happy, and it's a very interesting take. And if this is viable, then this is the best solution for- this existential problem which is hitting us, especially India and, like, Southeast Asia. The last one is an old movie which I really like. So [01:26:30] many good songs come from it, Ijaazat. Mm-hmm. [01:26:32] Raman: Uh, Naseer [01:26:32] Shardool : or Naseeruddin Shah and Rekha It's a very mature movie, like, aaj nahi ban sakti Bollywood mein.[01:26:40] Shardool : It's like an ex-couple meets at a railway station. They used to be husband and wife, and they talk. It's awesome movie. Hmm. And if you haven't seen it, you should. [01:26:50] Manisha: Hmm. Songs are quite beautiful. [01:26:53] Shardool : Yeah, yeah. "Mera Kuchh Samaaan" is a very famous song by Asha Bhosle. Uh, there are many, many other. "Ijaazat." [01:27:00] [01:27:00] Manisha: Okay, so my recommendation, uh, from the week is, um...[01:27:06] Manisha: Actually, this piece came out two weeks ago, but it's a very good piece in The News Minute on, uh, Monalisa Bhosle, um, the lady who went viral at the Kumbh Mela because she was very beautiful. [01:27:20] Shardool : Yes, yes, yes. [01:27:20] Manisha: I mean, uh, so- Pretty [01:27:22] Shardool : girl. [01:27:22] Manisha: Yeah, it... most bizarre sort of virality imposed on her because somebody clicked a picture, and she looked pretty, and she was selling [01:27:30] beads, so it was like, "Oh, how can someone selling beads be..."[01:27:31] Manisha: Uh, very shades of- [01:27:33] Shardool : Yes ... [01:27:34] Manisha: lot tells us- Moronic classism ... yeah, yeah, moronic classism. That she's selling beads and look, she's so pretty. Right. So that was... And then she married this person, and there was this whole furore around it. Uh, so News Minute had done a really nice, long, detailed story on it, which I think is a very good read, so do check that out.[01:27:52] Manisha: It's by Lakshmi Priya, and it's been edited by Dhanya Rajendran. It's behind the paywall. It's for subscribers only, so if you're a subscriber of The [01:28:00] News Minute, definitely check this out. Um, I, uh, have been going through a sense of nostalgia about the 2000s for some reason and my college days. Mm-hmm. And I've been, uh, looking at movies that I was watching when I was in college and why I liked them so much and why I liked the music so much, and I- I'm listening to some of those old albums, and I think "Taishan" is a really great album.[01:28:25] Manisha: So this weekend, listen to music from "Taishan." [01:28:30] It's fun. With that, this is the end of NL Hafta. Need I remind you to please pay to keep news free. Check out all the stuff that we have behind the paywall. If you're a subscriber and you're listening to Hafta, it's great, uh, which means you, you like listening to the podcast and you subscribe to it for it.[01:28:48] Manisha: But also start engaging with some of the other stuff we do, like do check out our reports that are behind the paywall. Do check out our interviews behind the paywall. We have a section on, uh, the News Laundry website which is subscribers only. So every now and then, [01:29:00] go to subscriber only section on newslaundry.com and check out some of the other stuff we do and share it with people because that really helps us become bigger, um, and be discovered by people.[01:29:10] Manisha: So even if you have friends who may not wanna tune into the podcast, you may find a lot of stuff here that your friends and family may want to read or listen to, which is behind the paywall, and that may get them to subscribe to News Laundry. So please do, um, engage with some of the stuff that we have behind the paywall, subscriber only section on newslaundry.com.[01:29:30] [01:29:30] Manisha: With that, we shall leave you with this song for Modi Ji's uninterrupted- 4399 days in power. And Abhinandan will be back next week to host your favorite weekly news show NL Hafta. Till then, see you next week[01:30:00] [01:30:27] Manisha: Thank you for your subscription. You're changing the world [01:30:30] by changing the way news is funded. For the smoothest News Laundry experience, download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our paywall podcasts. And you'll also get access to all free News Laundry shows. Keep us ad-free and subscriber-funded.[01:30:45] Manisha: Help us grow. Tell people who listen to you to pay to keep news free. Subscribe to News Laundry. Keep journalism independent

2026/6/13

The Liver Doc on his fight against pseudoscience, wellness myths and powerful interests

In this conversation with Abhinandan Sekhri, the Kerala-based hepatologist pulls no punches. From challenging wellness myths, to his new book and the cost of speaking up, he talks about why he keeps fighting.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-06-10/xc4242zj/Liver-doc-interview.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutouts of Abhinandan Sekhri and The Liver Doc with the text above, India's Dr Controversial, and a speech bubble reading: Yoga is pseudoscientific. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0EIo7vc4dYs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EIo7vc4dYs" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>A 14-year-old girl walks into his ward with severe liver damage. The culprit? Traditional herbal medicine sold freely at your local pharmacy. Dr Cyriac Abby Philips, known online as the Liver Doc, has built one of India’s most fearless voices in scientific medicine. He debunks wellness myths, challenges dangerous supplements, and takes on billion-dollar industries armed with nothing but data and relentless conviction. And unlike most doctors, he does it publicly. At personal cost.In this conversation with Abhinandan Sekhri, the Kerala-based hepatologist pulls no punches. From harassment that drove his colleagues out of the country, he speaks about what it truly costs to fight medical misinformation in India. He breaks down why a glass of wine for better circulation is a lie your brain literally can’t afford, how food supplements escape drug regulation through legal loopholes, and why not every registered doctor is actually qualified to treat you.He dismantles the mythology layered onto yoga while defending the real physical benefits underneath it. He explains how the wellness industry legally sidesteps regulation – not by lying outright, but by choosing words like “good for” and “effective for” instead of “cures”. And he talks about why Indian doctors are now scared to put their own names on scientific papers.He also talks about his new book, The Liver Doctor: Stories of Love, Loss and Regeneration.His accounts have been suspended before. But he keeps going. Asked why he keeps fighting, he has a simple answer.“If not me, then who? If not now, then when?”Subscribe to watch the full interview.

2026/6/10

A DMK huddle in Coorg to discuss debacle

After allies pressed the Congress in the recent INDIA bloc meeting, we heard that there have been internal discussions within the Congress about a national leader reaching out for talks with the DMK.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-06-09/617wnh0i/thenewsminute2026-06-0968vuxcw1Powertrip.jpg.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutouts of Rahul Gandhi and MK Stalin" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure><iframe class="trinity-player trinity-iframe" src="https://trinitymedia.ai/player/trinity-i/2900013399/?pageURL=https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/10/a-dmk-huddle-in-coorg-to-discuss-debacle&readContentType=URL" style="border: 0; width: 100% !important; height: 90px !important" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe> Welcome to this week’s Powertrip, a political newsletter curated exclusively for subscribers of The News Minute and Newslaundry. This week’s edition is by Dhanya Rajendran, Shabbir Ahmed, and Pooja Prasanna.In this edition, we spoke to sources about a key discussion among the DMK top brass. There have been talks about a potential reconciliatory approach towards the BJP but not everyone is agreeable.And while the Congress will apparently reach out to the DMK for talks, is the latter amenable is the question.Next we give you a peek into the Mamata-Kejriwal meeting that happened just before the INDIA bloc gathering.<h2>Inside Track</h2><h4>Exclusive stories, for your eyes only</h4><h3>The BJP question for the DMK</h3>The DMK’s top brass, including party president MK Stalin, Udhayanidhi Stalin, son-in-law and political strategist Sabareesan, former minister Anbil Mahesh, and others, took some time off over the past week and huddled in Coorg, Karnataka.According to sources, several rounds of discussions were held on the electoral debacle faced by the party. The objective of this brainstorming session was to finalise the future course of action and identify changes to be made to the party structure.One key issue discussed at the meeting was the party’s approach towards the BJP. This discussion has happened between other leaders of the party too.The Indian Express reported BJP sources saying that they are already in talks with the DMK over garnering support for crucial bills. Sources in the DMK we asked said that no formal talks have happened and the discussions are just rudimentary with some leaders agreeing and some skeptical about it. Sources also told TNM that some leaders raised concerns about how the party could justify going soft on the BJP after years of stridently opposing it.One strain of thought, however, is that they can extend support for certain bills that the DMK is not ideologically or historically opposed to, such as the One India, One Election bill. One leader told us that late former CM M Karunanidhi was not averse to the idea and the party may think in the direction of supporting the bill.Meanwhile, the TVK, which does not want the BJP and DMK cosying up to each other, has given the go-ahead to file FIRs against senior DMK leaders, including KN Nehru and V Senthil Balaji. This could pave the way for the Enforcement Directorate to initiate action against them. The question then is whether the BJP would be keen to unleash the ED on DMK.<h3>Will Congress talk to DMK?</h3>As we have reported, the meeting of the INDIA bloc saw many allies, including the Left parties, the Samajwadi Party, Rashtriya Janata Dal, Trinamool Congress, and Nationalist Congress Party, voicing their disappointment with the Congress over its treatment of the DMK. It was eventually agreed that the INDIA bloc would persuade the DMK to sign a letter addressed to the Chief Justice of India on the problems with the Special Intensive Revision of electoral rolls.We are also hearing that there have been internal discussions within the Congress about a national leader of the party initiating talks with the DMK. While the contours of what exactly this leader would seek are not yet clear, there is a view that the channel of communication with the DMK should not be cut off.However, DMK leaders we spoke to said that, for now, Stalin is in no mood to speak to or entertain the Congress’s overtures.<h3>Kejriwal open to state-level alliance</h3>Now to a story that’s not from the south. Before the INDIA bloc meeting, TMC leader Mamata Banerjee had met AAP’s Arvind Kejriwal. AAP had decided to stay away from the INDIA bloc since December 2025, alleging that the Congress was more concerned about winning for itself than for the alliance.While the meeting itself has been widely reported, we have learnt that the two leaders spoke about AAP being ideologically part of the INDIA bloc. Kejriwal reportedly told Mamata that he does not mind the Congress contesting against his party in both Punjab and Goa. He was also open to the idea of building alliances in these two states with other like-minded parties.<h2>Zero Hour</h2><h4>A political story of public importance</h4><h3><a href="https://scroll.in/article/1093381/why-indias-ambitious-plan-to-curb-unhealthy-food-failed">How India’s ambitious plan to curb unhealthy food failed</a></h3>The Modi government in 2017 launched a plan to combat foods high in fat, salt and sugar. In the first part of a new series, we examine why it never took off.<h2>Powermoves</h2><h5>Top 5 political stories</h5><ol><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/kerala/this-is-a-sangh-village-inside-keralas-new-hindutva-strongholds">‘This is a Sangh village’: Inside Kerala’s new Hindutva strongholds</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/telangana/how-many-died-from-heat-in-telangana-the-answer-depends-on-whos-counting">How many died from heat in Telangana? The answer depends on who’s counting</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/news/what-happened-at-the-india-bloc-meeting-pushback-against-congress-conciliatory-end">What happened at the INDIA bloc meeting? Pushback against Congress, conciliatory end</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/tamil-nadu/auroville-residents-voice-concern-over-self-governance-and-ecology">Auroville residents voice concern over self-governance and ecology</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/telangana/revanth-says-hydraa-named-after-hitlers-core-team-draws-criticism-for-nazi-reference">Revanth says HYDRAA named after Hitler’s ‘core team’, draws criticism for Nazi reference</a></ins></li></ol>What happened at the INDIA bloc meeting? Pushback against Congress, conciliatory end

2026/6/10

NL Hafta Subscribers’ Take Ep 7: A special feedback episode

Catching up on all the letters received from subscribers.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2025-05-21/xacj3l5e/Hafta-letters-thumbnail-.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutout of Abhinandan Sekhri with a NL cartoon and text stating, 'Hafta Subscribers' Take. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>In this special episode of NL Hafta, Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal , and Anand Vardhan catch up on all the letters that we’ve received from subscribers.Hafta letters: <a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/09/hafta-letters-questions-for-pm-2029-elections-digital-medias-reach">Questions for PM, 2029 elections, digital media’s reach</a><iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ec3d9497cef7479d2ef4798/6a22b8c5e25fe33c7cac186a" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ufOw4OeO75Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufOw4OeO75Q" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>We have a page for subscribers to send letters to our shows. If you want to write to Hafta, <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/podcast-letters">click here</a></ins>. Check out the<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/store?routeName=NlStore"> Newslaundry store</a></ins> and flaunt your love for independent media. Download the<ins><a href="http://www.newslaundry.com/download-app"> Newslaundry app</a></ins>. <ins>Timecodes</ins>00:00:00 – Introduction00:01:23 – LettersProduced by Amit Pandey; sound by Anil Kumar.

2026/6/9

Hafta 592: Opposition in crisis? Can the CJP protest succeed?

The podcast where we discuss the week’s news. <figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-16/egtq656l/HAFTA-NEW.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="New Hafta cartoon featuring cutouts of Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal, and Abhinandan Sekhri. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>This week on Hafta, Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande, Anand Vardhan and Rinchen Norbu are joined by veteran journalist Neerja Chowdhury. The panel discusses the political turmoil within the Trinamool Congress (TMC), the state of the opposition, and the changing nature of protests in India – including whether the Cockroach Janta Party (CJP) protest slated for June 6 at Jantar Mantar in Delhi will succeed.Discussing the crisis unfolding in West Bengal, Neerja Chowdhury argues that the rapid fragmentation of a recently defeated party is a relatively new phenomenon in Indian politics.“It is very unusual what happened in West Bengal. Normally, you sit in the opposition, wait for your turn and fight back. This unraveling of a defeated party is a new phenomenon that we are seeing,” she says.The panel also debates whether the BJP's dominance is primarily the result of opposition failures or deeper structural advantages. Defending Rahul Gandhi's role in national politics, Neerja remarks, “Rahul Gandhi is probably the most courageous man in India today in terms of how he takes on the Prime Minister. The problem, as somebody told me, is a communication disconnect – the way he expresses his ideas doesn’t always resonate with people.”Anand Vardhan, however, disagrees with viewing opposition politics through the lens of courage. He argues that political leaders operate within structures of incentives and responsibilities rather than purely moral acts of bravery.“I would not say that is courage. That is his role. Anything that has incentives attached to it is not courageous for me. Courage is something very different,” he says, while also pointing to the structural vulnerabilities of regional parties that often depend heavily on power and personality-driven leadership.Manisha Pande highlights what she sees as a shift in public sentiment towards the Modi government. While Narendra Modi’s appeal in 2014 was rooted in the perception that he was an independent and decisive leader, there is now a growing feeling that citizens are not being heard.“I think the big sentiment today is that people want someone to listen to them. This government does not listen is something you hear repeatedly. There is a growing frustration with centralisation and communication that only goes one way,” she says.The conversation then turns to the role of protest in a democracy, particularly in the context of planned demonstrations by online political satirists and student groups. Reflecting on the importance of dissent, Neerja says, “The soul of a nation dies if you cannot speak out. If you cannot express to your ruler that you are hurting, then something fundamental is lost.”The panel examines whether the growing frustration among young Indians is translating into meaningful political mobilisation, and speculates how the Cockroach Janta Party (CJP) protest slated for June 6 will turn out. Anand Vardhan cautions against romanticising Gen Z-led protests, arguing that many contemporary movements are heavily shaped by digital ecosystems and often lack the organisational depth of traditional grassroots campaigns.“These are movements that are heavily online and tailored for digital users. We should be careful about assuming that they automatically translate into grassroots mobilisation,” he says.While acknowledging the anger driving young people to speak out on issues such as examination paper leaks and institutional failures, Anand argues that online visibility alone cannot substitute for the structures required to sustain long-term political movements.Adding to the discussion, Rinchen Norbu points out that many digital-first protests lack experienced organisers and institutional support systems. As a result, he says, such movements are often vulnerable to disruption, manipulation and even “false flag” operations that can derail their objectives.All this and more.<iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ec3d9497cef7479d2ef4798/6a23b1666263fbced61281e8" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/gAXFy1-HH4o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAXFy1-HH4o" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure>Hafta letters: <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/06/hafta-letters-what-south-korea-does-for-students-questions-for-anand-visa-monopoly">What South Korea does for students, questions for Anand, visa monopoly</a></ins>If you want to write to Hafta, <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/podcast-letters">click here</a></ins>. Click <ins><a href="http://newslaundry.com/sena">here</a></ins> to contribute to our Sena project. Check out the<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/store?routeName=NlStore"> Newslaundry store</a></ins> and flaunt your love for independent media. Download the<ins><a href="http://www.newslaundry.com/download-app"> Newslaundry app</a></ins>. Song:  <ins><a href="https://youtu.be/p9DQINKZxWE?si=Ljj71nC50z7F4VH9">Sadda Haq (Full Video)</a></ins>Timecodes00:00:00 - Introductions and announcements00:03:07 - Headlines00:10:46 - Indian Opposition & Its problems 00:45:25 -  Protests in India 01:03:11  - Neerja’s recommendations01:12:22  - Letters 01:22:48 - RecommendationsReferences<ins><a href="https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tT3PH5NySwStIpeBEasm-g?_x_zm_rtaid=kw1IHb1MShyQGEcr5m29ZA.1780719908360.b9f20e99cd206e3acc2d0e07660805cd&_x_zm_rhtaid=938#/registration">Join your stellar journalists on Zoom</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2025/06/26/lets-talk-about-trans-lives">Let’s Talk About: Trans Lives </a></ins><ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/mmmk">NL -TNM Joint Subscription </a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Mgpd140Edw&t=235s">The Norway question that shook Modi’s tour and Press Freedom</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2025/04/18/gopalkrishna-gandhis-memoir-is-an-unusual-story-behind-the-story-of-a-republics-reckonings">Gopalkrishna Gandhi’s unusual memoir maps his journey through the republic’s memoryscape</a></ins>RecommendationsAbhinandan<ins><a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/in/podcast/rajesh-exports-house-of-cards/id1532901566?i=1000771258427">Rajesh Exports' House of Cards?</a></ins>Manisha <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/05/delhis-cleanest-may-in-5-years-is-a-toxic-illusion">Delhi’s Cleanest May in 5 Years is a Toxic Illusion</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/05/29/anti-monopoly-clause-gone-adanis-footprint-grew-across-indias-grain-storage-programme">Govt removes anti-monopoly clause, Adani wins another battlefield. This time, Rs 9,700 cr FCI contracts</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/04/be-transparent-be-accountable-the-teen-who-shook-indias-education-system">‘Be transparent. Be accountable’: The teen who shook India’s education system</a></ins>Anand <ins><a href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5849.A_House_for_Mr_Biswas">A House for Mr Biswas</a></ins>Rinchen <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7aOJYueEtI">I Investigated India’s Biggest Smartphone Controversy</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newyorker.com/sports/sporting-scene/victor-wembanyama-towers-over-the-thunder-and-the-game-of-basketball">Victor Wembanyama Towers Over the Thunder, and the Game of Basketball</a></ins>Neerja <ins><a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt33014583/">Dhurandhar </a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.amazon.in/Undying-Light-Personal-History-Independent/dp/936523820X">The Undying Light: A personal history of independent India by Gopalkrishna Gandhi</a></ins>  Check out <ins><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VCmV6yr5t1LHE77Xp5-cYhWrQSkhW3A8nix310MvRQU/edit?usp=sharing">previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters</a>.</ins>Produced by Amit Pandey with production assistance from Saurav Ranjan. Sound by Anil Kumar with assistance from research intern Manya Garg. Hafta 592[00:00:00] Manisha: This is a News Laundry podcast and you're listening to NL Hafta[00:00:12] Abhinandan: Angrez apna lagaan aur news laundry apna hafta kabhi nahi chhodte. Welcome to another episode of NL Hafta from a relatively cooler Delhi. We had thunderstorms. Apparently, there was hail yesterday also. I don't know if any of you were- [00:00:24] Manisha: Yeah Mm. El Nina is not going as planned. [00:00:28] Rinchen: Yeah, not, not going as planned, [00:00:30] definitely.[00:00:30] Abhinandan: But the Hafta is always going as planned. Never let you down. Never not been there for the last, whatever, 10 years, 12, I'm... lost count So before we get to the headlines, I'd, uh, like to make a few announcements. One is we have Zoom call, which is your town hall, the NL News Minute town hall, where you subscribers and only subscribers, please everybody don't try to pile on, will get to interact, [00:01:00] question, suggest stuff to us, to our editors, our reporters.[00:01:06] Abhinandan: Uh, we have this... We used to have it more frequently. Now, we're having it after a while. So you can ask questions, share feedback, suggest or just listen in. Uh, this will happen on the 20th of June on Saturday between 7:00 and 8:00 PM. We do this so there is some accountability to our audience. Uh, you get a chance to ask questions and give us suggestions because some of the best suggestions that have come our way have come from you.[00:01:30] [00:01:30] Abhinandan: So if you aren't a subscriber, here's a QR code. Link is in the show notes. Do subscribe. Join the Zoom call. We really wanna know what you think of the work News Minute, News Laundry are doing. On the call will be Manisha Pandey, Atul Chourasia, Dhanya Rajendran, Sudipto Mondal, Pooja Prasanna, Shabbir Ahmed, Raman Kirpal, and many others from our newsroom.[00:01:51] Abhinandan: Also, I'd like to plug Let's Talk About Trans Lives. This is Pride Month, and this of course we did not do just on Pride Month. We [00:02:00] had done this earlier. What is unique about this was that it was put together by subscribers who suggested hearing my kind of out of date views on trans issues. Uh, Prithvi, Kanmani, and Ananya, right?[00:02:13] Manisha: And KP. [00:02:13] Abhinandan: And KP. Uh, so all subscribers, they said, "Why don't we put together a panel for you?" And this will be an interesting conversation where a lot of myths or misinformation or just non-information can be addressed. So the link is in the [00:02:30] show notes. It's for subscribers only. Uh, so you can pick up a joint NL/TNM subscription.[00:02:37] Abhinandan: Link is in the show notes. There is a QR code. Support journalism. Support an independent newsroom that does not depend on Sarkari ads or large corporations. Now let me introduce the panel. Manisha Pandey. [00:02:52] Manisha: Hello. [00:02:53] Abhinandan: Anand Vardhan. [00:02:53] Anand: Hello. Rinchin [00:02:54] Abhinandan: Norbu. [00:02:55] Anand: Hello. [00:02:55] Abhinandan: Who is gonna be a regular on Hafta now. And joining us later in the show [00:03:00] will be veteran journalist Neerja Choudhary.[00:03:02] Abhinandan: Always a delight to speak with her. We will tell you more about her when she joins us, but for now, let's get the headlines. [00:03:08] Manisha: Yes. The TMC is facing turmoil after expelled MLA arrived at the assembly claiming the support of 59 out of the party's 80 MLAs in the bid to become leader of opposition Ma'am, the, uh, this person, Ritabrata Banerjee, also claimed that the speaker had accepted his proposal.[00:03:25] Manisha: Following the development, the party dissolved all its committees and organizational units across the state. [00:03:30] In a separate development, TMC MP Abhishek Banerjee was attacked during a visit to Sonarpur. He had gone there to meet the family of a party worker who was reportedly killed in post-poll violence.[00:03:41] Manisha: Amid the ongoing on-screen marking row, the center transferred CBSE Chairman Rahul Singh and Secretary Himanshu Gupta, appointing Lokhande Prashant Sitaram as the new CBSE chairperson and Varun Bharadwaj as the board's next secretary, even though it is Dharmendra Pradhan- ... [00:04:00] who people will be satisfied if he resigns.[00:04:03] Manisha: All these names I got And [00:04:05] Abhinandan: one of them has been removed and been sent as a- I've got [00:04:08] Rinchen: someone [00:04:08] Manisha: else- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly ... [00:04:09] Abhinandan: secretary, like you were saying. I think joint secretary or something. I'm- Yeah, I'm not sure exactly ... forget exactly what now. Yeah. [00:04:13] Manisha: Meanwhile, Abhishek Dipke, the founder of the Cockroach Janata Party, has announced that he's returning to India on June 6, which is tomorrow.[00:04:19] Manisha: So by the time this episode would've gone up, he [00:04:22] Abhinandan: would be here. Yeah, by the time you listen to this- Yeah, yeah ... he would've either landed or been apprehended and- And- ... whisked away somewhere ... [00:04:26] Manisha: the idea is to do a protest at the Jantar Mantar. Rajesh [00:04:30] Exports is under SEBI investigation for allegedly inflating its revenue by 15.15 lakh crore between financial year '21 and '25.[00:04:38] Manisha: It saw limited interest from domestic institutional investors despite being listed since 1995. Shareholding data shows that most mutual funds and institutional investors stayed away from the stock over the last decade. LIC remained the sole major domestic institutional investor- [00:04:54] Abhinandan: Hmm ... [00:04:54] Manisha: steadily increasing its stake from 1.99% in March 2016 to [00:05:00] 11.22% in March 2022.[00:05:02] Abhinandan: Just those of you who don't follow the markets, LIC investment is people like you. I have an LIC policy. I'm sure many of you do. Any of us who started our, s- entered the workforce in the '80s or '90s, the accountant in every company used to sell you an LIC policy whether you want it or not. So we all have.[00:05:19] Abhinandan: So this, the government decides where this corpus goes. [00:05:23] Song: Hmm. [00:05:23] Abhinandan: You can say there's an independent LIC board and all, but it's basically the government decides, and a stock that no one was interested in investing in, the [00:05:30] LIC kept pumping money in. And no surprises, this too comes from Gujarat, this Mr. Mehta.[00:05:36] Abhinandan: Like all successful, clean, wonderful businessmen in India come from Gujarat. Uh, so far they haven't started investigating them for money laundering But a, but a, a lot of ED money laundering investigations have started on many others for a lot less, whose annual turnover is not even two crores. But such is our agencies [00:06:00] that of course, as we know, work purely on evidence-based information.[00:06:04] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:06:05] Manisha: In fact, I think, uh, Debashis Basu at Money Lifers has written quite a bit about this. Mm. Like extensively- He ca- ... for years saying that this is curious I [00:06:13] Rinchen: think he, he called this, like, 12 years ago or something. [00:06:15] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:06:15] Rinchen: He said, uh... I think he posted, like, this old tweets of his, uh, you know, saying that this, this entire company looks super suspicious.[00:06:23] Abhinandan: There's another financial analyst advisor, uh, on social media who had done a breakdown of their balance [00:06:30] sheets in 2023, I think. [00:06:31] Rinchen: Okay. [00:06:32] Abhinandan: And he had said that this company, I don't get, like, what, what it is, how it's getting this revenue, and why its margins are so thin. Mm. [00:06:42] Manisha: The ongoing census exercise has sparked controversy after the enumerators reported being asked to revisit households and resolve data discrepancies that differ from official records.[00:06:53] Manisha: This is according to The Hindu report. Issues such as open defecation, use of traditional cooking fuel despite LPG connections, [00:07:00] lack of basic amenities were flagged for re-verification. Some enumerators have alleged pressure from senior officials to avoid entries that may reflect poorly on government welfare claims.[00:07:11] Song: Hmm. [00:07:11] Manisha: Delhi Police arrested Lovkesh Bajaj, owner of the multi-story building in South Delhi's Malviya Nagar, where a fire claimed 21 lives. The blaze broke out at Flourish Stays. That's a five-story bed and breakfast establishment located in narrow lanes opposite Max Hospital in Saket. Among the dead were 10 Indians, [00:07:30] nine African nationals, and two citizens from Turkmenistan.[00:07:33] Abhinandan: Yeah, quite horrible. [00:07:35] Manisha: Yeah. BJP's popular face in Tamil Nadu, K. Annamalai, has quit the party and is expected to start a movement that would eventually be converted into a regional political party. He met BJP national president Nitin Gadkari and had a separate meeting with Amit Shah before this announcement.[00:07:50] Manisha: In other political news, the DMK said it will not take part in a meeting of the opposition India bloc on June 8th. An 18-year-old student preparing for NEET [00:08:00] UG for medical college admissions died by suicide in Nagpur on May 20th. The student, Akansha Chaturvedi, left behind a handwritten note that was discovered by her relatives more than two weeks later.[00:08:11] Manisha: In the note, she wrote that she did not have the courage to take the NEET exam again. And according to an investigation by The Indian Express, of 45 major exam paper leaks cases recorded over the past two decades, only two have resulted in convictions. The Supreme Court has declined to intervene in a Madras High Court order dismissing a petition by the Hindu [00:08:30] Dharm Parishad seeking permission to light a lamp atop Thiruparakundram Hill.[00:08:37] Manisha: The High Court had earlier criticized the organization for pursuing the plea for political gains and imposed a fine. I think News Minute has done quite a few stories on this. Yeah. [00:08:44] Abhinandan: Yeah, and I just find it- Mm ... bizarre that something of this nature gets the kind of political involvement. Everything like this goes to court.[00:08:53] Abhinandan: Yeah. It's just [00:08:55] Rinchen: BJP is desperate to make a, sort of establish a presence in Tamil [00:09:00] Nadu. [00:09:00] Abhinandan: Yeah, and these are the kind of- [00:09:01] Rinchen: Mm ... [00:09:01] Abhinandan: symbols around which they do it. Like, just Farage is trying in the UK- Yeah ... with that Kirpan murder. [00:09:07] Rinchen: Mm, 100%. [00:09:08] Abhinandan: But of course, uh, I'm impressed at how he has been sw- thwarted by their media- Mm[00:09:14] Abhinandan: uh, and, uh, their parliament. [00:09:17] Manisha: A report by Bloomberg claimed that the Reserve Bank of India may have sold nearly 12 billion worth of gold in May to shore up foreign exchange reserves. The union government rejected the claim. The piece has been pulled down since though, right? [00:09:28] Abhinandan: So Bloomberg [00:09:30] has, 13 hours ago from right now, which is the 5th of June, 11:00 o'clock, which means last night at 9:00 o'clock they put out this tweet.[00:09:37] Abhinandan: Bloomberg has retracted a post on X based off an inaccurate Bloomberg Economics report, which was about this. Now, Deepak Shenoy, who is actually the CEO of Capitalmind Mutual Fund- Mm ... he has clarified Bloomberg used Indian prices to value RBI gold. RBI hasn't changed to Indian prices yet, so they used [00:10:00] IBMA prices to value their gold and convert it to rupees.[00:10:03] Abhinandan: Gold price in rupees went up 10% in May when the government increased gold duty. Since RBI releases the rupee and dollar value of gold every week, Bloomberg used rupee value and the Indian prices to figure out how much gold they have and assumed they've sold. The measure in dollars with LBMA prices, there would've been no sale detected.[00:10:22] Abhinandan: So that's basically how the inaccuracy happened. [00:10:25] Manisha: Around 80 lac women have been found ineligible for the Maharashtra Mukhyamantri Majhi Ladki [00:10:30] Bahin scheme following a statewide verification drive. The move has sparked criticism from opposition parties, which allege that the government is trimming beneficiary numbers due to financial constraints That's for the headlines [00:10:43] Abhinandan: Now, Neerja Choudhary will be joining us shortly, but before that, uh, Manisha, the horrific incidents in Delhi that happened, the fire, I, you know, I saw reporters were there.[00:10:52] Manisha: Yeah [00:10:53] Abhinandan: There was that collapse of the building last Saturday In Saket ... uh, in Saket. In fact, there are many such buildings. [00:10:58] Manisha: In fact, just today there's been [00:11:00] another fire. [00:11:00] Abhinandan: Yeah, there was a... In Delhi? [00:11:02] Rinchen: Yeah There- Was it? There, there was one on Noida as well, I think [00:11:05] Abhinandan: There was one in Bihar yesterday- One in- ... in a hospital again[00:11:07] Abhinandan: hospital, yeah in Delhi, right? Yeah And there has been another building collapse in Delhi- [00:11:10] Rinchen: Mm ... [00:11:10] Abhinandan: which is also four or five story building. Uh, I mean, I don't know how, um, you know, people are blind to it. We did a report a while ago- [00:11:18] Song: Mm ... [00:11:19] Abhinandan: which is less than five kilometers from the Prime Minister's house, there's open defecation happening while he goes around claiming that there is no open defecation happening-[00:11:25] Abhinandan: in anywhere in India. But just if you drive from [00:11:30] here, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, the amount of illegal constructions that have come up in the last five to eight months in front of my eyes- Right ... which weren't there earlier, and, uh, it's, it's, it's the Wild West. It's really... Delhi has, has become ridiculously free of any rules.[00:11:50] Rinchen: I mean, that neighborhood, that entire sort of, uh, Malviya Nagar, Kirki Extension, Sheikh Sarai, I mean, you go to... I mean, it's, it's like this everywhere in Delhi. You [00:12:00] go to Chattarpur, you go to North Campus, you go to- One [00:12:02] Abhinandan: is that whole Lal De- Dora rule, right? Mm. The Lal Dora areas, you... I don't know what the rule now is, but you can construct above 'cause it's village area.[00:12:10] Rinchen: Mm. [00:12:10] Abhinandan: But the brazenness- Yeah ... with which things have just started playing out is unprecedented. But Neerja Choudhary is here. Hi, Neerja. [00:12:19] Neerja : Hi. Hi. Hi. [00:12:20] Abhinandan: So, um, thank you for joining us. We are discussing in the context of the... Well, it's not a [00:12:30] split, but there clearly is some problem in the Trinamool with the 59 MLAs, uh seeming out of Mamata Banerjee's control, and there are murmurs that her nephew is also going to be in their target next.[00:12:44] Abhinandan: Uh, they are not overtly getting cozy with the BJP, but clearly the BJP is behind this. Uh, whenever any government or party loses a state, we have noticed in the last several years, [00:13:00] the party kind of splits and goes towards the BJP. In the midst of all this, Rahul Gandhi is constantly the punching bag for everybody that, you know, weak opposition, weak opposition.[00:13:11] Abhinandan: So we just want to discuss how much of this political dominance of the BJP is because of, quote unquote, "weak opposition," or is Rahul Gandhi unfairly bashed? And how much is it because of complete institutional capture, which at least in my view, [00:13:30] is unprecedented? [00:13:30] Song: Yeah. [00:13:31] Abhinandan: Uh, and is it what I would like to call, and people of Goa I love you, although I'm more a mountain person than a beach person.[00:13:40] Abhinandan: A politician who... Well, not a politician, but a political, um, uh A consultant who has worked for a very long time had told me about politics in Goa, that Goa you cannot really win an election through a party. The [00:14:00] Goa Janata will vote for their favorite candidate, like, you know, that Lobo guy there will win- Mm[00:14:03] Abhinandan: no matter which party. [00:14:04] Manisha: And he can, they can keep [00:14:05] Abhinandan: shifting. And then they can keep shifting, the Janata doesn't hold it against them. So whoever can offer more money, they will form the government in Goa because the candidates will win on their own. So has that happened all over the country that now based on money you'll win, and whoever has more influence, they go to them?[00:14:24] Abhinandan: Now, is the opposition responsible for this? If it is, what can be done? If protest is the way, [00:14:30] we'll see how Saturday protest plays out. Neerja, to you. Has politics- Okay ... in India been like this? [00:14:37] Neerja : You know, that's a, those are very fundamental questions that you're posing that I think every Indian will need to ask, particularly after the recent, uh, assembly elections.[00:14:47] Neerja : It is very unusual, you know, what happened in West Bengal for the party that's defeated to just unravel the way it is unraveling. Normally, you sit in the opposition, you wait for your turn, you hit back at the [00:15:00] ruling party, and then next time round you may get your chance, and if... may, may, may not be next time round.[00:15:05] Neerja : Be- Bengal goes on and on. You know, left was in power for 34 years, Mamata for 15 years, before that Congress for decades. So, uh, uh, but this unraveling of a defeated party is a, is a new phenomenon that we are seeing. Now, is it because the, uh, opposition has got it wrong or is it because the people want it that way?[00:15:29] Neerja : Is [00:15:30] it because of, uh, the misuse of institutions by the ruling group? I think it is mainly, uh, we have to accept that there is a sentiment, the rest follows. A humongous machinery of the BJP is an added plus. The misuse of ED The income tax is an added plus to harass the opposition side. But you cannot, uh, uh, you cannot manufacture a [00:16:00] certain sentiment.[00:16:01] Neerja : Now you can build on it. I can say, I can say that, you know, if you have the resources, you'll get your optics right, you'll get the message to a large number of people. But, uh, there is a sentiment and somewhere the opposition has got it wrong there. And I think what you talked about Rahul Gandhi, I, I would say Rahul Gandhi probably is the most courageous man in India today in terms of how he takes on the Prime Minister.[00:16:26] Neerja : Nobody else takes him on like that. Now, as [00:16:30] somebody said to me in Ujjain, problem is In the way he expresses it- Hmm ... it doesn't quite click with people. So is there a fault with his vision? Is there a fault with his language? Is there a fault with not fully understanding the pulse of the people? Uh, uh, or not...[00:16:48] Neerja : Why is it that Rahul Gandhi is not clicking as an alternative to Narendra Modi? Everybody says he's very decent, sincere, well-meaning, uh, taking, uh, innovative [00:17:00] steps like Bharat Jodo Yatra and subsequently, but why is he not clicking? Is it because the sentiment is so overwhelmingly in favor of the BJP?[00:17:09] Neerja : Has, uh, Hindu India Hinduized to such an extent that the opposition is not, uh, prepared to give credence to that development? Why has that happened? Are we fully not looking at that development or realistically looking at it? Why has it happened? Because we ourselves are opposed to it and don't want to accept it.[00:17:28] Neerja : I think there are many [00:17:30] questions, but you cannot, and I hope we will not have an India which is a one party India. I hope we will not have an India which opposition. Therefore, it has become so vital, and I've heard people in the BJP, those inclined to the BJP, express worry that the opposition is collapsing the way it is.[00:17:51] Abhinandan: So I mean, you have, uh, good points. Although on the sentiment bit, I mean, there is as much a sentiment in favor of [00:18:00] Modi as there is against Modi. There is as much a sentiment in favor of one as... 'Cause if you go by the data and the voting percentages There is no evidence to suggest that there is a sentiment among the population that disproportionally favors the BJP, if you just go by the number of people who vote for the BJP.[00:18:20] Abhinandan: Hmm. So in that sense, I guess the sentiment is there are various sentiments that exist in the country simultaneously, I guess. I mean, there are sentiment, you know, there are significant people, number of [00:18:30] people voted for Trinamool. Yeah. So that sentiment does exist. But to what extent can that, you know, go to the next level?[00:18:37] Abhinandan: So, you know, Anand, why don't you come in here? What do you think is this whole Goazation of... And is it there to stay? Because one could say that while we may think that, you know, breaking the Shiv Sena and taking over Maharashtra, you know, breaking the AAP, which the Supreme Court still has to tell us whether it is okay or not in the Rajya Sabha, [00:19:00] will it work in their favor or not?[00:19:01] Abhinandan: We'll know that in three or four years. But what Manisha was saying the other day, I mean, Ram Guha wrote a piece on, uh, Rahul Gandhi, which apparently got a lot of backlash- Hmm ... and support. [00:19:12] Song: Yeah. Hmm. [00:19:12] Abhinandan: Uh, that he's being unfairly, you know, he's just bashing him. But all, but, uh, uh, Nirjan, to your point, yes, yes, Rahul Gandhi's decent, he's good, he's all that, but those are all attributes that- are not, it's like saying I'm a very good, well, give a sports analogy.[00:19:28] Abhinandan: I'm very good at playing the cover [00:19:30] drive, I'm very good at playing this, but you're not playing cricket, you're playing football. So all those attributes actually have no value for this. So I don't know if that's of any consequence one way or the other. Yeah. [00:19:38] Neerja : Yeah, absolutely. [00:19:39] Abhinandan: I mean, you [00:19:39] Neerja : can- But you know, Nayar, coming here you pointed to a very important thing, that even today the BJP has less than 40% of the vote.[00:19:47] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:19:48] Neerja : And Mamata, for all her defeat, had 41% of the vote still- Mm ... and BJP was 5% ahead. Of course, when you convert it into seats it's a different ballgame. But if you have m- a [00:20:00] little more than 60% of the vote, either non-aligned or on the other side nationally- [00:20:06] Song: Mm ... [00:20:06] Neerja : then your, you know, your way is very, very clear.[00:20:09] Neerja : It's as in Hungary. Mm, exactly. That Mr. Magyar got together the opposition, you know, the left, the liberals, the l- left of center, the right of center on a common platform, and he was the driving force, you know, the hands-on man. And it reminds me of Vishwanath Pratap Singh. In '87, [00:20:30] Rajiv Gandhi, 414 Lok Sabha seats of the Congress, unprecedented number.[00:20:37] Neerja : From '87 to '89, Raj- uh, Vishwanath Pratap Singh brought it down to 197. Mm. Rajiv was out of power. VP Singh was prime minister. How did he do it in two and a half years? Only two and a half years. Right. Alternative to the Congress. He got the entire non-Congress space on a common platform. Mm. Now, who in the opposition today?[00:20:59] Neerja : Can Rahul [00:21:00] Gandhi do it? No, he doesn't show an inclination for, uh, you know, hands-on detailing. Can Priyanka do it? I don't know. Are there others in the party who can do it? Are there others in the, uh, Congress, uh, in the opposition side that can do it? This is hard, painstaking work, seat by seat. [00:21:17] Song: Yeah. [00:21:17] Neerja : And dealing with p- the leaders' egos.[00:21:20] Neerja : You know, Sharad Pawar had said in 2024 to me, I just, I say this and, uh, stop there. He had said during the campaign in Satara, he said, "You [00:21:30] know, in the next year or year and a half, the regional parties will be, will be looking at a closer association with the Congress," Mm ... "even a merger in the Congress." [00:21:42] Song: Mm.[00:21:43] Neerja : And I asked him, "What about your party?" And he said, "We have the same ideology as the Congress," meaning we'll be willing to do it. Sure. Now, it went viral that time. It, it, uh, it is raised from time to time. Why has something like that not happened? Why did the Congress not, you know, lap [00:22:00] up that opportunity?[00:22:01] Song: Hmm. [00:22:02] Neerja : So I think somewhere, as, as, as I keep saying, today it's a question of "" for, uh- ... whether it's the NCP or whether it's Mamata Banerjee, they will have to swallow their, uh, pride and, uh, mu- it'll be much easier to accept Congress's leadership today than it was in the past. Hmm. 'Cause all the regional parties have been weakened.[00:22:26] Neerja : Right. But I think they'll need to sit down. And somewhere, [00:22:30] uh, what is missing is also popular pressure that they do so. Anand. [00:22:36] Anand: There are too many questions. Uh, uh, so let me begin by, uh, saying that, uh, what, uh, Ms. Chaudhry was saying that, uh, mm, a very typical and very, uh, say, expected task of the opposition And when we say that Mr.[00:22:55] Anand: R-Rahul Gandhi is the most courageous person, so I would not say [00:23:00] that that is courageous, that is his role. [00:23:03] Song: That's [00:23:03] Anand: his role. Mm. Uh, so, uh, and that, that courage has incentives. [00:23:07] Song: Mm. [00:23:07] Anand: And anything that has incentives, whether you are in, uh, say, civil society activism or journalism or power politics like Mr.[00:23:20] Anand: Gandhi has-- is in that, which has incentives, is not courageous for me. [00:23:26] Song: Mm. [00:23:26] Anand: Because, uh, of course, the other route [00:23:30] is of immediate comfort and immediate gain. But then you see that I have greater gains in what people, uh, quote unquote, say courage. Mm. I don't see that as courage. I see courage from a very different perspective.[00:23:47] Anand: I see very courageous people struggling through life with all odds and with no incentive in place. So people who, like YouTubers and journalists, they say that I'm very courageous or [00:24:00] Rahul Gandhi is very courageous and this, you have incentives to be courageous. Mm. You, you see a long-term game that I, I would be seen as this, I would gain from that.[00:24:09] Anand: So not courageous. It's a typical task of the opposition. Second, uh, point is that, uh, I think, uh, uh, the problem with, uh, opposition is a very, uh, in a very, say, lucid way, lack of success. And the lack of success is itself a [00:24:30] problem. It, uh, invites a, a lot of unwanted criticism also, and, uh, it, uh, raises a lot of self-doubts, a lot of predatory behavior from the ruling groups.[00:24:45] Anand: And that is happening and, uh, for a, a lot of regional parties as well as the national party. So lack of success and let it g- it, uh, affect your, uh, mm, political [00:25:00] behavior is one thing. Uh, uh, s- uh, second is the way Uh, political communication has evolved over last few years in the digital era or pol-- even political ral-ra-rallies.[00:25:17] Anand: It's more of a communication of extremes. And in that sense, Mr. Rahul Gandhi's political language is like a, say, mm-mm-mm a kind of newsletter from an [00:25:30] NGO. [00:25:30] Song: Mm. [00:25:30] Anand: So, uh, it has all the typical elements of civil society activism and all that, and- It doesn't have [00:25:38] Abhinandan: political rhetoric [00:25:39] Anand: at once. Yeah, rhetoric. So, uh, and sweet nothings and very aggressive radical zeal that come from universities and all that, and looks like an NGO is there, and it has sent out its, uh, newsletter.[00:25:55] Anand: So a lot of his things like, like, uh, say, uh, maybe I [00:26:00] would, uh, bring this when we discuss pros- protests. Mm. So, and there is an overlapping of this theme there. I will... So that is there. Now, coming to the Trinamool, uh, I think a regional party like Trinamool, uh, which, uh, does not, uh, which has a political glue of power when it loses power, so-- and it has not, uh, uh, minus personality, the institutional structure, [00:26:30] the institutional depth.[00:26:31] Anand: So these things can happen. So the ins-- uh, if, uh, even a regional party like, say, DMK, it has institutional depth. So, uh, it would be very difficult to ha-have prep-- a kind of predatory behavior against that party. Mm. But if your chief, uh, mm, say, political asset is power Then-- And you have not-- And you have built a personality cult over it and, and a lot of, uh, the [00:27:00] behavior of the top leadership was, uh, very talk-down authoritarian style.[00:27:05] Anand: So, so a lot of dissent can, uh, uh, translate into opportunistic outreach. [00:27:12] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:27:12] Anand: So that has happened and, uh, that, uh, is somehow undermining the party. Uh, but, uh, we have not seen the end game. It-- So, uh, Mamata Banerjee is- You think [00:27:25] Song: it's going to go the other [00:27:25] Anand: way ... is still the tallest leader. [00:27:26] Song: Hmm. [00:27:27] Anand: And she may regroup, uh, in a [00:27:30] way.[00:27:30] Anand: I-even, um, TMC when it came, mmm, to power in 2011, one of its chief goals, uh, was to decimate the left. Hmm. Which it did [00:27:40] Song: manage [00:27:40] Anand: successfully. Uh, so decimate the left from the c-cadre level only. Hmm. Uh, and so, uh, I think BJP would, would, uh, given the, say, mmm, the political, uh, structure of Bengal, its dynamics, BJP would eye its chief opponent's total decimation.[00:27:58] Anand: Uh, the, the-- So, uh, [00:28:00] how it would accomplish it and how TMC is different from the left, left, uh, would anyway have, say, kind of, uh, uh, a k-regrouping because it is an all In- all India presence. But, uh, TMC- Yeah, but to what [00:28:15] Abhinandan: extent it keeps itself relevant is I think been a challenge for the left anyway. Manisha?[00:28:20] Manisha: So I'm very interested in the question of sentiment, uh, like Neerja was talking about, and I've been thinking about this quite a bit because of this whole Lok Janata Party thing. And [00:28:30] if you look at 2014, to me, the key sentiment that worked for Modi was that he's his own man. I think people felt for too long that power does not really reside with Manmohan Singh, and history will be kind to him, is kind to him.[00:28:42] Manisha: Like Neerja's book explains how he really achieved certain things for the country, like the nuclear deal- Hmm ... against all opposition within his party. But the chief sentiment back then was that this person is not his own man, and power resides with Sonia, with someone else. At least when Modi [00:29:00] comes to power, we'll know who is in charge, and I think that really, really worked for Modi, if there's one central thing that worked for him.[00:29:06] Manisha: Today, I think The big sentiment that exists, at least when you listen to people, is that you want someone to listen to you. I think a lot of people are very frustrated with this government because this government does not listen. "" is a very common thing you'll hear everyone say. So there is a sentiment for a leader who at least listens to us, doesn't just ram [00:29:30] through, you know, this whole centralization everywhere.[00:29:32] Manisha: Even Mann Ki Baat, the kind of now- [00:29:35] Song: Yes ... [00:29:35] Manisha: anger or the mockery that Mann Ki Baat gets is quite unprecedented because people are a bit tired of this leader who's just one-way communication, you know, telling us what he wants, what he thinks, and he's not listening to us. And I think Rahul can ... There is an opportunity for a Rahul to position himself, which I think he's trying to do with Bharat Jodo Yatra, where he went walking, trying to position himself as, "I'm listening to you.[00:29:57] Manisha: At least I'm here listening to your concerns. This government [00:30:00] doesn't care, it doesn't listen, it will ram through whatever they want." On the question of Ramgu and all the, you know, controversy that came out of it, I think the question of capability, Congress has to decide, and Congress seems to have decided it's Rahul for them.[00:30:14] Manisha: It's only the people around, journalists, columnists, who keep saying, "Rahul, is he capable or not?" But no one from the Congress is saying. There's no revolt within the Congress. Whoever had to leave has left. Whatever old guard, new guard, JSL had to happen, happened. Now they're very clear that Rahul is the face.[00:30:29] Manisha: So [00:30:30] if the opposition to BJP, and I think there's merit to that like you were saying, I don't think regional forces can withstand BJP's pressure. They have not been able to in the last 12 years, and I think regional politics will finish, like Sharad Pawar was saying to Neerja. They won't be able to withstand.[00:30:44] Manisha: Only Congress has been able to unseat a BJP, uh, government, and that happened in Karnataka. So if Congress is the main party of opposition, they have decided it's Rahul. So I, I'm, I'm a little bored of this question of his capability because the [00:31:00] party wants him, so that's it [00:31:02] Rinchen: Yeah. So I mean, the idea of, uh, regional parties being finished, uh, I'm not entirely sure that...[00:31:09] Rinchen: I mean, I mean, I understand Neerja's argument- That depends [00:31:12] Abhinandan: on which region. [00:31:13] Rinchen: Yeah, 100% Tamil Nadu clearly not. That's what I'm saying. Tamil Nadu is a very clear-cut example of that. [00:31:17] Manisha: Samajwadi Party, but I think Samajwadi Party, what works for them is they're very closely working with Congress. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's a very good alliance there.[00:31:24] Rinchen: Like the post-Pandit parties in Bihar or in, in, uh, this thing on, in UP and stuff. I mean, these are, [00:31:30] these... I think these parties are here to stay also at some level. Hmm. Um, but I think I would like to take a slightly more, uh, macro perspective on this, which is that, uh, I mean, of course, the l- the litany of struggles is long for the Congress.[00:31:43] Rinchen: I mean, there's lack of organization renewal, um, especially, you know, inability to strengthen grassroots, uh, organization in states, particularly in the Hindi belt. Uh, leadership transition, Kerala, for instance, I mean, they took forever to choose a chief minister. Uh, lack of internal democracy, no [00:32:00] coherent strategy, election str- strategy.[00:32:01] Rinchen: Like, I mean, Bihar and Tamil Nadu are very clear examples of how they weren't able to strike winning alliances in a timely manner, I thought. [00:32:08] Song: Mm-hmm. [00:32:09] Rinchen: Uh, but besides all of this, I think it's, it's... I think it's unfair to judge the Congress leadership by normal democratic standards. [00:32:17] Song: Hmm. [00:32:18] Rinchen: Um, that, I mean, yeah, basically they're fighting a deeply unequal war against a highly sort of tech savvy, tech driven, centralized autocracy.[00:32:29] Rinchen: [00:32:30] Um, I mean, by reducing this exist- sort of existential fight for India's future to the personal flaws of one leader, I think is... I don't know. I don't, I don't quite buy that argument personally. And also, let's give BJP some credit also. I mean, uh, like with the... I mean, to judge the opposition without acknowledging the BJP's massive war chest, um, and the modern BJP kind of operates like this sort of corporate bureaucratic hegemon almost asserts, you know, with a s- An [00:32:59] Manisha: [00:33:00] efficient corporation.[00:33:00] Rinchen: Yeah, it's efficient with sophisticated organizational infrastructure. [00:33:03] Manisha: Lot of money. I mean p- Yeah ... I mean, it's also money, and- Money and- ... I also understand Anand's point that actually- Yeah ... I mean, there's always this thing that[00:33:13] Manisha: Rahul is alienating people. Hmm. Uh, Rahul is... But people are getting alienated 'cause he's not in power. Hmm. Yeah. 'Cause he's not succeeding. Yeah. It's not that, I mean, it's not like Modi is very kind and listens to people- Hmm ... and he's not alienated people in BJP. Yeah. The moment he starts losing, people will be alienated from him [00:33:24] Abhinandan: also.[00:33:25] Abhinandan: Yeah, exactly. Although I find the whole, um, uh... and you know, at like Neerja's view on this, [00:33:30] on giving the BJP its due- Hmm ... as a concept I, I f- I have a very fundamental problem. It's like saying, "Let's give Dawood his due." [00:33:40] Manisha: Let's give devil the due, like [00:33:42] Abhinandan: No, yeah, but that is a ... that is not, the, I mean, the, like if I were to say Michael Burry, the guy who did The Big Short.[00:33:50] Song: Mm. [00:33:50] Abhinandan: What he did, you can say is unethical. Mm. He bet against America- Mm ... you know, by their stamp. But he says, "Look, there's a flawed thing." Mm. Mm. "There's nothing illegal in what I'm doing. I'm not misusing any position. I'm a hedge fund manager. [00:34:00] I have seen the flaws in the system, I've bet against it." And in that one bet he made 1.8 billion.[00:34:06] Abhinandan: One man's genius. [00:34:07] Song: Mm. [00:34:08] Abhinandan: To say that the same applies for, you know, uh, Enron chief, what was his name? Kay, um, um, whatever the Enron chief was, I forget his name. [00:34:19] Anand: Mm. [00:34:19] Abhinandan: That let's give the, you know, let's give him his due, he made... No, dude, he did fraud. [00:34:23] Song: Mm. [00:34:24] Abhinandan: So I do not buy that their war chest is well earned because they found [00:34:30] a legal, legitimate loophole in the system.[00:34:33] Abhinandan: You cannot say, "I have become very powerful here by putting a knife at everybody's throat," and say, "Give me money and now I'm the richest man." But... Hmm. So I'm sorry, I, I just find that ridiculous. [00:34:43] Rinchen: No, I mean, [00:34:43] Abhinandan: that- So, and, and what I find is that the entire conversation happens with that as normal. Mm. That is not normal.[00:34:50] Rinchen: Yeah. [00:34:51] Abhinandan: And that m- being not normal, I don't think is called out enough. So whether the opposition has problems, not problems, for me that's secondary. [00:34:57] Rinchen: Mm. [00:34:58] Manisha: Yeah. I think we are at that stage [00:35:00] where- [00:35:00] Abhinandan: The, the, the... It's the- ... [00:35:01] Manisha: discussing opposition is a bit- [00:35:02] Abhinandan: Let's talk about the first principle, no? Mm. [00:35:04] Rinchen: 100%. The, [00:35:04] Abhinandan: the...[00:35:05] Abhinandan: Neerja? [00:35:06] Rinchen: No, the... I was, I sort of, I was trying to finish a point actually- Mm ... so, which is that, uh, so I'm not saying, you know, give them credit for their war chest, but what I'm saying was that this has taken a lot of work for them to get here. I mean, backed by deep, century old, sort of literally societal roots of the Sangh Parivar in different parts of this country.[00:35:26] Rinchen: I mean, you, you have to acknowledge that at some point. I mean, uh, so [00:35:30] that's, that is the credit I was giving them there. For sure. Not for, not for the war chest, not for any of these things. For sure. Yeah. [00:35:35] Abhinandan: Kenneth Ley was the guy I was talking about, sorry. I, I just got the name. Yeah, I'll just come back to you, Anand.[00:35:38] Abhinandan: Neerja, what do you think about how, how we frame this in everyday discussion w- with this being a normal state of affairs? [00:35:46] Neerja : You know, um, I would say, if I've understood you right, um, that, uh, you know, they believe in what they're doing. [00:35:55] Abhinandan: Yeah. [00:35:56] Neerja : A, a large number, most of them are ideologically [00:36:00] driven. Yeah. They believe in their civilizational project of 1,000 years.[00:36:04] Song: Hmm. [00:36:05] Neerja : Uh, so on the other side is a commitment to power. I don't think, if we are honest, there's a commitment to any ideological, uh, goal, whatever be their rhetoric, that drives them round the clock. Yeah. That's one part of the story. Second part of the story is that they are... You know, they work so [00:36:30] hard. [00:36:30] Abhinandan: By "they" I'm guessing [00:36:31] Neerja : you mean [00:36:32] Abhinandan: Amit Shah and Modi, right?[00:36:33] Neerja : Yes. BJP. Amit Shah and Modi and the RSS and, and they make their team work. [00:36:38] Abhinandan: Right. Mm. "[00:36:39] Neerja : Hamari toh jaan nikal [00:36:40] Abhinandan: dete hain." Mm. [00:36:41] Neerja : That's what people who've gone from the Congress to the other side say. Ha, [00:36:44] Abhinandan: because... Yeah. [00:36:45] Neerja : They've not worked so hard. [00:36:46] Abhinandan: As a collectively, you cannot say BJP is driven by ideology and not power, otherwise they would not have the chief minister in West Bengal and Assam that they do.[00:36:54] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. So I would say that may be true for Modi, Shah and the RSS. But I would not say that's true for BJP, because [00:37:00] half the BJP office holders are ideologically rootless. [00:37:03] Neerja : No, that may be, that may be, but the top is driven, and, uh, therefore, um, you know, one saw this in West Bengal, the, the manner in which- They've worked.[00:37:16] Neerja : Amit Shah, of course, in the lead, he set his mind to winning Bengal come what may, and he won it- Hmm ... for the BJP. Hmm. Now, do you see anybody ... And, you know, he was there 15 days round the clock, [00:37:30] um, uh, meeting with people, war room, uh, right to the booth level, 88,000 booths. Hmm. How are they doing? Bupender Yadav, Union Minister, camping there since September last year, and so on.[00:37:43] Abhinandan: Hmm. Hmm. [00:37:44] Neerja : Now, do you have that kind of drive? [00:37:49] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:37:49] Neerja : I would say even if it's power that you're going for- [00:37:52] Abhinandan: Sure ... a will [00:37:53] Neerja : to power. [00:37:54] Abhinandan: Yeah, the motivation is not, yeah. [00:37:56] Neerja : That is not there, and [00:38:00] I think it is a, it is a, a new breed that's come to power, the like of which those in the opposition who've done conventional politics in the conventional way, uh, will not be able to match.[00:38:11] Neerja : So maybe you have to wait for a new breed to grow and evolve, and the, the, the present ones to fade out. I don't know where the solutions are going to come from. There are going to be solution. There cannot be a vacuum. [00:38:25] Song: Hmm. [00:38:25] Neerja : You know, water will find its own level. A country as, uh, I believe [00:38:30] diverse as India, as resilient as India- Hmm[00:38:33] Neerja : well, you know, it's democracy still, we hang onto it for all its fault lines and the pressures on its institutions. Hmm. So I, I am, I, I am an incorrigible optimist on that one. There will be solutions. I mean, there's a Vijay thrown up. There's a Satishin come to power in, um, Kerala, not at Venu Gopal again, ground level pressures.[00:38:56] Neerja : So those kind of things will keep happening. Now, but [00:39:00] the opposition as an entity has to really knuckle down. They are meeting India block on the head, I believe. [00:39:08] Song: Mm-hmm. [00:39:08] Neerja : They have to really take a hard look, not the usual kind of, you know, resolution pass[00:39:18] Neerja : and all that. Really, too much is at stake, and they owe it to the people of India. [00:39:24] Abhinandan: Yeah. O- o- on that I agree with you that the 24/7 obsession- Mm-hmm ... without that you [00:39:30] cannot... And the only reason Mamata has been able to last out as long as she has or ANAP has, because they do not have any other interest. They, they are 24/7, you know.[00:39:40] Abhinandan: Whereas Rahul, you cannot say the same about him. Anand, I think you want to say something. [00:39:44] Anand: See, uh, a kind of a quantification of sentiment which in vote, uh, in an electoral democracy is re- presented through vote share or number of seats. So, and the distortions that first-past-the-post [00:40:00] system has in India, that is well documented.[00:40:02] Anand: Mm-hmm. And at the time of independence, we opted for it because it was a simple method. Mm-hmm. And for a largely illiterate country, it was very difficult to, uh, make people understand the intricacies of proportional voting. Either run [00:40:17] Abhinandan: off or primary or whatever. [00:40:17] Anand: So we opt... And, uh, in terms of the, mm, say, mm distorted projection of support that has wreaked havoc over.[00:40:28] Anand: So, but, uh, [00:40:30] that's a given thing. We have to work within it. So parties- That's baked into the cake. Yeah. So it's parties strategize. In fact, uh, at, uh, in the-- e-even in the first general elections, Mr. Nehru didn't have, uh, fif-more than 50% votes here. Mm-hmm. So, uh, and initial, uh, decades also we don't-- didn't see, uh, it, uh.[00:40:51] Anand: So, uh, one thing is that, uh, the second, uh, thing is that, um, uh, and the V.P. Singh government, [00:41:00] which, uh, was formed after a suc- a successful, hmm, say, unification of opposition. So the index of opposition unity was very high. Now, what, uh, is there that, uh, uh, she's right that, uh, regional parties will remain, national parties will remain.[00:41:20] Anand: There is a kind of, uh, uh, like, uh, worry among, say, Delhi commentators who, who think they are [00:41:30] national commentators, that, uh, this is national politics, that is local politics. All politics is local. Hmm. And, uh, all pol-- uh, and the regional, uh, ramifications, and they build up ag- uh, brick by brick into a national picture.[00:41:47] Anand: So, uh, it is not that, uh, the regional dynamics would be, say, hmm, subsumed by the na-national picture. They, they are, I [00:42:00] think, a very different sides of the same picture. Uh, third thing, uh, I would like to say that, uh, what is the, the, uh-- and it, uh, the next topic would be, I think, the ideal for it. What is the organized political society over which, uh, a lot of political communication is happening?[00:42:21] Anand: Where is that organized political society that these political actors, players, parties target? [00:42:27] Manisha: Hmm. [00:42:27] Anand: And that may be a very [00:42:30] small society, and that is my reading of it. That may be a very small society. And voting may not always be a very political act, but just an act of an occasion, that today is the voting day.[00:42:43] Anand: I'm-- He may be a very non-political person throughout the year, but on the voting day, he votes because that's the s-social event in the town then. So, uh, what is the organized political society that we talk [00:43:00] about, debate about? And that is a very, hmm, I think, relevant point to ponder for political commentators.[00:43:07] Anand: Right. I wanted to add that [00:43:10] Manisha: this, um, I share Neerja's optimism in that sense, but also because I feel like BJP's been in power for so long, so they, what will weaken them is their own, their mo- their own selves. Two things All the push and pulls within the party are... It's simply not playing out right now because they're winning every election.[00:43:28] Manisha: But if you talk about Rahul alienating [00:43:30] Congress, he's not like Amit Shah has not alienated his own party men. Sure, exactly. So like right now- If he's not [00:43:34] Abhinandan: in power- Yeah, they'll all [00:43:35] Manisha: go against him ... how will the BJP guys? [00:43:36] Abhinandan: Yeah. [00:43:37] Manisha: So, I mean, that's also [00:43:39] Anand: there. Political forces n- don't lose out because of the unattractiveness of the ideas they have, ideologies.[00:43:45] Anand: That ideology may have millions of takers. They lose out because of the people who carry those ideas, and those people may be very, very unattractive to a lot of people. Because when you recruit people to carry out that ideology, those [00:44:00] people may be the problem, and ultimately that traps, uh, the growth of a party means or de- uh, or demolish.[00:44:08] Abhinandan: Vin, you were saying? [00:44:08] Rinchen: Yeah, so on the one thing about opposition criticism, I think one larger structural issue we have not been able, I mean, we, I don't think we've quite touched upon yet is the sort of, uh, of what happened post liberalization. I mean, which completely transformed the relationship between politics, capital, and media- Mm[00:44:26] Rinchen: most importantly. I mean, cost of election campaigns shot up. [00:44:30] Uh, concentration of media ownership, I mean, we've - Mm ... we've done so many stories on that, resulting in total complete political and ideological capture of mainstream media. Um, and ties between economic wealth, political power has deepened in ways that have almost, I would say, altered the terrain on which political parties compete.[00:44:50] Rinchen: I mean, the support that the BJP gets from, you know, the crony capitalists, Adani, Ambani, et cetera. I mean, it's perfect. I mean, they've... Of course, the Congress did it as well before in the [00:45:00] '70s and '80s, but what the BJP has, like, they've perfected that marriage of crony capitalism and sort of political salary.[00:45:05] Manisha: Actually, that's also one theory that things will shift when money decides to shift. [00:45:10] Rinchen: Yeah. [00:45:10] Manisha: When the big guys- [00:45:12] Abhinandan: Hmm ... [00:45:12] Manisha: you know, corporations, Adanis and, not Adani, well, we don't know. But Ambanis, I mean, when these guys feel like, okay, we've had it too much, our businesses are going nowhere. [00:45:20] Abhinandan: Yeah. [00:45:21] Manisha: So that also I think.[00:45:22] Abhinandan: Now, Neerja, coming to you now, because this is gonna go online when probably young Mr. Dipke [00:45:30] has already landed or been whisked away. Mm, and [00:45:31] Manisha: detained. [00:45:32] Abhinandan: I will put out the point of discussion now for the next 25 odd minutes. What is the role of protests in a democracy, and has that all but vanished? And once again, that brings me to my pet peeve.[00:45:46] Abhinandan: For that, it is the BJP and BJP alone to blame. You cannot blame opposition or Aam Aadmi, et cetera, et cetera. As Anand said, which I don't entirely agree with, but even if I would take that as, you know, generally conventional fact, [00:46:00] that cour- courage is, has to be free of incentive In such s- but, but courage is never free of risk, right?[00:46:11] Abhinandan: Now how high is the risk and how high is the incentive? 'Cause nothing is without incentive. Only math is without incentive, only science. Anything that has a mind is with incentive. It could be your immediate benefit or your children's benefit, or want we breathe better, better air or better money.[00:46:28] Abhinandan: Incentive is inevitable to human [00:46:30] beings, otherwise why would we live? Everyone would just jump off a building. Now, in such an environment, I would like to everybody here to hazard a guess and also tell me about the role of protests in India. Does it really exist? What will happen tomorrow? 'Cause by the time people are listening to this it would have already happened.[00:46:46] Abhinandan: When Dipke lands, how many people land up at Jantar Mantar? Are they allowed to assemble? Are they picked up in buses and dropped at Mathura and send a walk back to Delhi? Uh, what is going to happen when people are listening to this or has already happened? [00:47:00] And what is the role of protests? Has it all but vanished?[00:47:02] Abhinandan: I was a part of dozens of protests from the time I was 20 to the time I was about 35, 38. I mean, I don't even see one-tenth those amount of protests in Delhi anymore. [00:47:13] Neerja : I think, uh, you're absolutely right. What is the role of a protest in a democracy like ours, a vibrant democracy? Of course there is a le- role for a protest.[00:47:23] Neerja : A, a, you know, the soul of a nation dies if you cannot speak out. [00:47:29] Song: [00:47:30] Mm. [00:47:30] Neerja : If you cannot express that you, I am hurting You, my ruler, listen to me. We will die as a nation. So protest has its role, a very important role. How they handle it tomorrow, and I think there's a lot of concern, worry how it's going to pan out within the establishment also.[00:47:51] Manisha: Hmm. [00:47:52] Neerja : I hope they will not arrest him, and I think they may not because, you know, it will, uh, it will give it an impetus and [00:48:00] they don't, they would like the, the situation to, you know, a couple of days of protest and for it to diffuse. The challenge is to keep it a completely peaceful protest. The moment a little bit of violence take place, rowdiness takes place, then the, the ruling side as always, the government then has a, you know, a, a, um, alibi to put it down with a heavy hand.[00:48:25] Neerja : That can be, that can be done through a false flag operation also. That can be done. Tha- that of course. Uh, you know, [00:48:30] anybody can do that. So that is going to be the real challenge. Now, o- obviously the sentiment, uh, uh, the, the, the ruling dispensation, the government suspects who are the people behind this.[00:48:44] Neerja : Are there other forces? Is it so? Is it not so, uh, uh, is it as innocent as is being talked about? And any government of the day has to safeguard that. Hmm. Are there other forces behind something like that? It wouldn't, uh, it wouldn't, uh, be worth its salt [00:49:00] if it didn't and wasn't vigilant enough on that.[00:49:03] Neerja : Whether somebody engineered it, whether somebody's fueling it, somebody will try and use it, of course, there'll be forces, so it has to be vigilant. But to allow this, because this sentiment, you know, I did a, a sh- a small recce in my area. I went to these, uh, uh, mobile selling shops, and there are young people who sell them and tell you how, what is what.[00:49:26] Neerja : And I talked to several of them. Several of them said, "I am a [00:49:30] cockroach." Hmm. This is in Gurgaon. [00:49:33] Song: Hmm. [00:49:34] Neerja : And why? Because they have the res- dissatisfaction. And you know, I think Manisha was saying this, one of you was saying this, that they feel, um, people are not listening to them. They're not being, uh, they're what they feel is not being heard or heeded.[00:49:49] Neerja : Hmm. And, uh, even the NEET thing is very agitated people. They say, "Do..." They said to me again and again, "Do you realize the trauma?" [00:50:00] The angst that we and our families go through [00:50:02] Abhinandan: Yeah, yeah. That [00:50:03] Neerja : is, I mean- Then we have to do a re-examination. So I think the government and the opposition have to understand the depth of that sentiment in Gen Z today, and even younger.[00:50:14] Neerja : You know, this Gen Alpha we talk about and whi- which had a role in Tamil Nadu, the two... The teenagers who compelled their parents and grandparents to vote for Vijay. And they are the go- many of them are going to be first time voters next time round. [00:50:27] Abhinandan: E- exactly, which is the case with this, all the [00:50:30] Instagrammers.[00:50:30] Abhinandan: But I want to ask you one thing, and just, you said you hope they won't arrest him. Two clarifications, please. Are you using the word arrest technically? Like cops say, "We haven't arrested them, we've only detained them." Are you talking about arrest, detention of him being allowed to do what he wants in a democracy?[00:50:47] Abhinandan: And tell us what you think will happen, not what you hope will happen. [00:50:50] Neerja : I don't know the answer to that. I've tried to, you know, talk to several people and find out, and I think nobody really knows. [00:50:58] Manisha: Yeah. Oh. [00:50:59] Neerja : That's [00:51:00] what's so fun. Yeah, nobody really knows. They're hoping it will pass off peacefully. [00:51:05] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:51:06] Neerja : And, uh, you know, they don't have to detain, that's a better word than arrest.[00:51:11] Neerja : Uh, uh, I- that's the right word, whether they can... they'll de- de- detain him. Uh, so, uh, uh, you know, everybody's keeping their fingers crossed. [00:51:20] Manisha: But Neerja, when you speak to, like, people in the government, what's your, what's the sense you're getting? How are they looking at it? Even RSS or, you know, people in, uh, home [00:51:30] ministry or wherever, how are they looking at it?[00:51:31] Manisha: Are they really looking at it as, like, a national security threat, or they, they can't make sense of it? [00:51:35] Neerja : No, they are, they are mindful of it being a national security. They're, they, they wonder, they question whether there are forces behind it. Can it be so in- innocent that a Boston-based student gets 20 million people in one week?[00:51:53] Neerja : Can that happen? I mean, we live in different times. Of course, technology, AI being, use of [00:52:00] AI in all this, can that generate? I mean, there are so many questions to which we have no answers. But to answer yours, I think people are very, um, quiet, tight-lipped, uh, worried, hoping that, you know, things will go off smoothly without having to come down with a heavy hand.[00:52:20] Abhinandan: Right. Uh, Vinjin, your pr- what, tell us what is happening tomorrow. Your- But I just, to your question, Manisha, and, uh, I can tell you not second or third hand, first hand, [00:52:30] having spoken to someone who- is high up and was part of being asked that check this out. They are paranoid about it. They have checked, these are not bots.[00:52:42] Song: Mm. [00:52:42] Abhinandan: They are aware this is genuine dissatisfaction of predominantly Indians. There are a lot of Pakistani accounts in this as well. There are a lot of other... But yes, it is not some... They are- Not India stable ... they know, they know internally- [00:52:56] Rinchen: Mm ... [00:52:56] Abhinandan: this is real. This is [00:52:57] Rinchen: no foreign hand. [00:52:57] Abhinandan: They know about that. [00:52:58] Rinchen: Yeah.[00:52:59] Abhinandan: So that is [00:53:00] not... They under no il- whatever they may say publicly ... Sona[00:53:11] Manisha: Bangchuk will be here. [00:53:13] Rinchen: He will be here. I mean, Sona Bangchuk has just got more courage, I think, after the government was forced... Literally dropped all their charges 'cause there was nothing. [00:53:19] Manisha: But he- Quite nice of him to, like, fly in and just- [00:53:21] Rinchen: Yeah, [00:53:22] Manisha: yeah ... sit here, yeah. Wow. [00:53:22] Rinchen: No, he's, uh- For like- And plus he's very popular with this particular- Yeah[00:53:26] Rinchen: demographic. Right. Yeah. Young [00:53:28] Manisha: students. Thanks [00:53:28] Rinchen: to 3 Idiots. Yeah, and whole [00:53:30] engineering, and you know, all of that thing. So but, uh, to your point about false flag operations- Mm ... and this is my concern about tomorrow, which is that, uh, the people organizing this protest, now, I don't know, uh, who they are, I mean, what, what sort of experience they have.[00:53:45] Rinchen: And as we have documented over the years how college protests, college politics has sort of taken a huge hit. Uh, I don't know how experienced these people are. I don't know what sort of... How well they can organize this. I mean, they didn't even bother to get permission [00:54:00] before. They- Mm ... so they're just gonna go tomorrow- Mm[00:54:02] Rinchen: to Delhi Police and get permission. So I think there is a lot... My fear is that there is a lot of scope for this sort of false flag. You know- Mm ... violence might break out at some point. [00:54:11] teaser: Mm. [00:54:12] Rinchen: Uh, that is my fear because I don't know how... Because experienced hands, like people who have organized pro- large scale protests, I mean, there's a- They-[00:54:20] Rinchen: there's, there's a method to it. Yeah. There's a entire process to it. There's organization to it. I don't know. I mean, these are just bunch of angry... I mean, I don't know how, how this will play out. [00:54:29] Sudhir: Mm. [00:54:30] [00:54:30] Rinchen: Uh, so that is my fear, that, uh, whether with this whole, uh, violence element and that whole... It'd be easier to, I think, uh, for any opposing forces to, you know, set up a false flag operation with this particular protest.[00:54:42] Rinchen: That's just my fear. [00:54:43] Abhinandan: Anand, how do you think tomorrow will play out? Or in real time for the people listening to this, today is when you're listening to it, Saturday. Mm. [00:54:50] Manisha: How is it playing out? [00:54:51] Abhinandan: How is it playing out in real time? [00:54:53] Anand: Uh, two, three things I'd say. First, uh, just, uh, I don't think there is [00:55:00] a very d- uh, different kind of Gen Z protest.[00:55:05] Anand: Uh, I don't believe in the idea of Gen Z. I, I think people are teenage, young, old, and very old. [00:55:14] Song: Mm. [00:55:14] Anand: No Gen Z, and X, and Y, and alpha, beta. So either, either you are teenage, young- middle age- Old or very old ... old and very old. Paanch category [00:55:27] Abhinandan: hai. [00:55:28] Anand: Uh, and these are the [00:55:30] things, and you-- and generations fit into it.[00:55:32] Anand: Hmm. So that is the thing. So, uh, it is if someone is trying to have a different kind of identity because it has a very fancy name, that is a misnomer. I think the origin of this, uh, protest is out of a, uh, say, satirical take. And just like satirical take, it depends on a TV [00:56:00] comedy-like situation. [00:56:00] Song: Hmm. [00:56:01] Anand: Uh, like a, a kind of like in satire you have to exaggerate things to make sense.[00:56:10] Anand: Uh, and you deal in extremes. You saw something like this or that. So also it, uh, if the origin is CGI's, uh, remark, so just as in satire, it has, uh, even after his clarification, it, it has presented what [00:56:30] is, uh, I can say level for a lot of, uh, digital users. [00:56:36] Song: Hmm. [00:56:36] Anand: So the question at this point is that, is it a moment of digital fad or a kind of, uh, um, durable political sentiment or a passing fad?[00:56:55] Anand: The government, what you call paranoia or any power [00:57:00] system would be very, very vigilant of every little thing. [00:57:03] Song: Hmm. [00:57:04] Anand: I think it's a paranoia in sense, but also vigilance in other sense. If you are very much interested in retaining power. So, uh, th-that is the s-second, uh, thing I would like to say. Third, I would-- the general, uh, nature of, uh, protests.[00:57:26] Anand: Uh, uh, [00:57:30] I think, uh, uh, ki-ki, um There is, there are different layers of elite in the society. And there is a, an elite which is at the top, which has po- political power and also the financial power. And there are d- different layers of local elite and city elite and other [00:58:00] kinds of elite. Now, the elite which see-- uh, is far below the topmost elite, because of its disgruntlement or for its own power aspirations, they would recruit lot of people to, uh, carry their war to...[00:58:21] Anand: And lot of young people who you say are not, uh, very much now involved in protest on political, uh, I [00:58:30] don't think that they have seen, uh, they see through this like that. But I think there is a bit the onset of very materialistic life, very consumerist life. Uh, and I don't blame them. Uh, in fact, at a certain age, I also realized this, that life is short, and my life it will not be changed by governments or change in government.[00:58:52] Anand: Mm. I would change my life myself. I would do this, do, do, do that. I-- Private [00:59:00] initiatives, private, uh, efforts are needed for it The public thing, l- leave it to the aspiring elites to recruit some, uh, young people to carry their war. But I s- have seen through their game. I will do my things to go, um, get up in life.[00:59:19] Anand: So lot of, uh, young people see it like that. But lot of, uh, of also there are impressionable people also who have [00:59:30] romantic visions of anti-establishment. And the dissat- dissatisfaction is the most natural sentiment, whether it is of in a family, office, country, or world at large. So like anti-incumbency in a, um, say election- Yeah, that's the default setting[00:59:48] Anand: it is, it is the most natural sentiment. Yeah. You just have to be in a, a good position as a political party to harness that. [00:59:56] Abhinandan: To, yeah, [00:59:56] Anand: to- Dissatisfaction is, for citizens is very, [01:00:00] uh, you rarely see any citizen praising any civic body because there are no end to problems. [01:00:06] Abhinandan: It's a question of they've accepted it or not accepted it.[01:00:08] Abhinandan: It is not like they've endorsed it. But I just wanna move on 'cause, uh, uh, Neerja has to go after that. Manisha, your view on this protest, what will happen? Please hazard, haz- hazard a guess. [01:00:17] Manisha: I have no clue. I'm genuinely very curious to see. [01:00:20] Abhinandan: You really think they'll let him reach Jantar Mantar? I ... Anyway, I'll g- give my [01:00:24] Manisha: prediction later.[01:00:24] Manisha: I feel like they know what happened. I mean, I think one thing this government clearly knows is that UPA too fell because [01:00:30] of IAC. I think they're very scare- they know that. Even the Hathras crackdown and their crackdown on protesters because they are, they know how a protest can go out of hand- Restless[01:00:39] Manisha: and then ... So I think they're very cognizant of that, so I, they'll do everything. But it's been really interesting to see this government struggle with responding first even in the CBSE case. See, with, uh, Umar Khalid, with farmers, with Shaheen Baag, uh, you know, women, it was very easy to say Pakistani, ISI, whatever.[01:00:57] Manisha: With these 17, [01:01:00] 18-year-olds, it's very difficult to say you're Pakistani. [01:01:02] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:01:02] Manisha: With NEET aspirants, [01:01:04] Abhinandan: so I think- And it backfired already once ... [01:01:05] Manisha: so why I'm curious and I, to see how it unravels is because I think it's, there is an element of predictability where this government doesn't know how to deal with these youngsters.[01:01:13] Abhinandan: Mm. '[01:01:13] Manisha: Cause you saying you're Pakistani is just very- In Dipke's case, what they can do is AAP. Look, it's an AAP plot to AAP. AAP comes and Khalistan comes, Khalistan comes and Canada comes. So the plot they can make very easy. Now we know how it works. Hmm. So that's why I think it'll be very interesting to see what happens on [01:01:30] Saturday.[01:01:30] Abhinandan: So we'll give Neerja the last word on this, but before that, here's how it'll play out. Opening shot, Dipke lands at airport. As he heads out, before he exit gate three or not, he's whisked away. They will never let a protest take root, 'cause once it's there, you cannot remove it unless there are visuals of violence.[01:01:48] Abhinandan: They will not let it start. Cut to a bunch of BJP proxies or overtly BJP with hit spray.[01:02:00] [01:02:00] Abhinandan: They are doing that. The anti-cockroach protest is already in place. It has been consolidated. That is play out- playing out on your screen. Cut to news media giving disproportioned air time to the people with hit. Cut[01:02:17] Abhinandan: to at Jantar Mantar, thousands of police people not letting anyone come. So there is [01:02:25] Manisha: nothing [01:02:26] Abhinandan: there. They will barricade ... yeah. Final take, bus is coming, [01:02:30] putting these people on, not arresting them. Putting them on, taking them to Faridabad, Jaipur Highway- ... Bombay, uh, uh, Delhi Sona Road, and say, "You better go, bye-bye.[01:02:42] Manisha: You've just told them how to handle it. [01:02:45] Abhinandan: I'm ... Dude, they don't need [01:02:46] Rinchen: me. Yeah. Yeah, they don't, yeah, they already have the blueprint. [01:02:49] Abhinandan: They ... I ... Dude, if, if they would have hired me- This is why you- ... I would have created the perfect- ... Ha- ha, Neerja, tell me. Uh. [01:02:55] Neerja : I was going to say they should have hired you. Yeah. They should have taken [01:02:59] Manisha: [01:03:00] you as an advisor.[01:03:01] Abhinandan: Yeah, [01:03:02] Neerja : we are all waiting. Yeah. We are all waiting. Um- [01:03:06] Abhinandan: Last word to you, Neerja, and please remember to give us a recommendation also before you say goodbye. Hmm. [01:03:11] Neerja : Recommendation on the book? [01:03:13] Abhinandan: Anything. [01:03:13] Neerja : Or the- [01:03:13] Abhinandan: Book- Okay ... article, [01:03:15] Neerja : film- Hmm ... experience in life. Film I w- I, I'm watching again, Durandal. Huh? Durandal II.[01:03:21] Neerja : Which part? II? I tell you. Durandal II. I tell you. Where are [01:03:22] Abhinandan: you [01:03:23] Neerja : watching it? So, so I- It's [01:03:24] Abhinandan: online? [01:03:25] Neerja : Huh? No. Uh, yeah, uh, yeah, the, the Durandal II, of course. [01:03:30] It's online? Is, yeah. I don't know. Is it online? But Durandal, uh, the- I don't know about it ... the sec- the second time Durandal that I'm watching, I'm very fascinated with Ajit Doval.[01:03:39] Neerja : Or [01:03:41] Abhinandan: the character who may or may not be [01:03:43] Manisha: Ajit Doval. So your recommendation is what? [01:03:43] Neerja : Sunny Deol. It [01:03:45] Abhinandan: is Ajit Doval. [01:03:45] Neerja : Sunny Deol. Uh, uh, modeled on, you know, his, uh, it is his, uh, what is portrayed is, uh, his brains, his brainchild- Hmm ... his strategy, and therefore it is, an, you get, a- a- insights into all [01:04:00] that. Uh, as somebody who's covered politic, I'm very fascinated by, you know?[01:04:04] Neerja : Uh, f- forget that it is, you know, what the government, uh, would like to, uh, put out about, you know, the[01:04:14] Neerja : If you will attack us and, uh, have at- a terror attacks against us," that, that apart. It is, it is the understanding of the mind that is of interest to me personally. So anyway, uh, the book I'm reading, I should have read last year, is, uh, [01:04:30] The Undying Light of, uh, by Gopal Gandhi. Hmm. It is an amazing book. I believe so.[01:04:37] Neerja : It is simply an amazing book. Anand, were [01:04:38] Abhinandan: you recommending it to me? Anand had interviewed Gopal Gandhi also after this. Yeah. And you spoke very highly of the book as well. [01:04:44] Anand: Yes. [01:04:44] Neerja : You know, it's so readable. It evokes images. It is, you know, there is something of the heart that comes through, and it tells you about that whole[01:04:53] Neerja : Anybody interested in modern India's history, that's a wonderful book to get into. And, um, you know, [01:05:00] m- it hasn't had the kind of, um- Write up some, of course, and the kind of play, visual media- [01:05:08] Song: Hmm ... [01:05:08] Neerja : that it should have had. You know, I think it calls for something like Netflix to pick it up and, you know- [01:05:15] Abhinandan: Right[01:05:16] Neerja : an OTT channel to dramatize it. [01:05:18] Abhinandan: Today you're getting [01:05:19] Neerja : all [01:05:20] Abhinandan: sorts of screenplay ideas. But anyway, so. I would also like to recommend, Anand had, uh, reviewed Gopal Gandhi on this book. Uh, the link is in the show notes. Please check out the full interview. It's a fascinating one. [01:05:30] Uh, so thanks, Neerja, and have a great weekend.[01:05:33] Abhinandan: Thank you. Bye. [01:05:33] Neerja : Bye-bye. Bye. And we'll see what happens tomorrow. Yeah. [01:05:36] Abhinandan: Where will you be? Will you watch it from your studio, on your television? Where will you be? Our reporters [01:05:39] Neerja : will be everywhere. Reporters will be on the ground. I, I probably- But, uh, they, but actors are free to improvise on the script.[01:05:40] Neerja : Improvise, yes, correct. Free to impro- We'll have, we'll have people on the ground. Let's see. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Okay, bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Yeah, so before we go into the recommendation... No, before I go into the emails, on this, anything else that you think on the protest bit that, that [01:05:43] Abhinandan: any possibilities we may have left out?[01:05:45] Abhinandan: So there's two point, I think there's two points, uh, uh, Anand had raised earlier. One[01:06:00] [01:06:11] Rinchen: was about the sort of classification of this Gen Z, Gen Alpha, whatever, whatever. [01:06:16] Song: Hmm. [01:06:17] Rinchen: I think, you, I mean, we can have issues with nomenclature, what they're called, but I think there is also a major difference, and this also goes to your point about how a lot of the followers of this Congress Janta Party are genuine.[01:06:28] Song: Hmm. [01:06:29] Rinchen: Right? Which is [01:06:30] that a lot of these kids literally grew up with the internet. [01:06:33] Manisha: Yeah, that is a difference. [01:06:34] Rinchen: Like, for example, we, Manisha did a recent interview with Sarthak Siddhant, the- Hmm ... super intelligent, mature kid, uh, who exposed the CBSE. Uh, and, uh, like he said, he, what, he was three years old when he s- he started, uh, that the, he started sort of playing around with the computer.[01:06:51] Rinchen: I mean, so these are kids who have grown up in this space- Yeah ... uh, this sort of environment. Yes, they did. [01:06:59] Anand: And- Hmm. What I meant to [01:07:00] say that their primary, uh, identity is that they are teenage or young. [01:07:06] Rinchen: Hmm. [01:07:06] Anand: That they are Gen Z is an added feature or the technological exposure that they got in their formative years- Hmm[01:07:15] Anand: is, uh, uh, uh, say a play of history, a play of time. Hmm. But, uh, what they are, basically what they are 18 year, 20 year, 21 years, so that person, when he would [01:07:30] enter the mid-age, would be a different person. Mm-hmm. He, and then his primary identity would be that he's middle-aged, and then he's, then he's old. Old.[01:07:40] Anand: Then he, yeah. Primary, old. It's, it's- So, so, so he, he may, uh, what- attitudes he are, or we are assuming they are carrying as Gen Z would be different when he is mid-aged, would be different. So their primary, uh, classification for me is that they are teenage, young, middle-aged and- [01:07:58] Rinchen: Hmm. Sorry, another [01:08:00] point that you had made also about, uh, f- you know, people not really caring which w- I mean, their future's not depending on what government's there or not.[01:08:09] Rinchen: I, I would s- I would slightly disagree on that point. Just, I mean, look at the CBSE thing, the whole NEET thing. I mean, their entire futures are being jeopardized by this entire- Policy. Hmm ... sort of, you know, these scandals that have, that have taken place. Hmm. And these are institutions run by government, run by taxpayer money.[01:08:27] Rinchen: Sure. So, uh, government does have a stake. [01:08:30] Uh, look, there are obviously enterprising people who can, you know, uh, who had, who have done this before and who will do this in the future, who have, who have succeeded despite the system. [01:08:40] Abhinandan: But- Yeah, but that's I think a very personal motivation. 100%. But if people are motivated by different things, but yeah, I would like to move on to the ones like[01:08:46] Abhinandan: I'd like to move on to the emails. But- Hmm ... Manish, on this, give me your last word [01:08:49] Manisha: and then we'll move on to emails. Just one, uh, one, um, narrative I don't like around protests is, you know, is it pure- Hmm ... or is there politics and nefarious? Yeah. I mean, sh- I'm sure AAP will send its workers. [01:09:00] I'm sure Congress will send its people tomorrow.[01:09:01] Manisha: I'm sure left is sending already. So, so what? Like, BJP can do whatever they want. Hmm. Opposition parties can't even, like, support a protest. Like, what is this thing of is it a pure protest? Hmm. Which protest is pure? There will always be political motivations, political actors. There will be one big umbrella cause and all sorts of people joining it.[01:09:18] Manisha: So this whole mainstream media narrative especially that this is not real. Hmm. AAP is supporting it. Are? The BJP has never supported... Was protests against emergency not real because ABVP supported it? [01:09:28] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:09:29] Manisha: It's nonsense. [01:09:29] Rinchen: [01:09:30] And then, then RSS supported [01:09:30] Manisha: it. I mean, of course political parties will try and capture this.[01:09:33] Abhinandan: But I will gi- I will, uh, at least on this, the media is consistent even before the Modi years. Yeah. I remember I was, uh, in Barkha's studio and, uh, there was Mani Shankar Aiyar who was at, I don't know what his mental state is. He was a vile man then. [01:09:48] Song: I [01:09:48] Abhinandan: think he's probably a vile man now. He is, uh, crass- [01:09:53] Song: Hmm[01:09:54] Abhinandan: uh, elitist to a degree which I would say borders on [01:10:00] casteism. Uh, he was a horrible human being, and I think he probably still is. He's old and horrible now, and irrelevant. And I remember Barkha was saying, "If you want a bill introduced Is this the way to do it? I was then, "Mirka, what is the [01:10:16] Song: way to do it?"[01:10:16] Song: Hmm. [01:10:16] Abhinandan: You decide what your prime time is. Three people sitting around. I said, "Which movement in the world has been in a boardroom?" Hmm. Sab ao chalo AGM hogi, discussion hogi. You know, they were so clueless then. [01:10:27] Song: Hmm. [01:10:28] Abhinandan: And they were the so-called secular [01:10:30] ones. Their understanding, if it is not... If the discussion is not happening in my studio, it is not legitimate.[01:10:35] Rinchen: Yeah. Arey [01:10:36] Abhinandan: yaar, you irrelevant fools, man. Hmm. It will happen in all the chaotic ways it has to happen. Hmm. So that, on that legacy media has been consistent down the ages. Yes, that's actually... There's... including Sa- Yeah, go ahead. Uh, last word to Anand then we'll- Oh, [01:10:52] Anand: uh, what I was saying was not the effects of these scams or it, or say leaks, [01:11:00] but a dysfunctional or malfunctioning state apparatus you have to take as a given.[01:11:06] Anand: And, uh, uh, I don't think only a few enterprising, lot of people take them as given these things happen and you have to f- find a way out. Hmm. So I have gone through all my life through this all loop of examination and competitive examination and all that. And [01:11:23] Abhinandan: now you're [01:11:24] Anand: teaching others to go through those same loops.[01:11:25] Anand: So, so, uh, so it is not that, uh, I am not going [01:11:30] for what about read that many things that you think is, uh, this is very new thing. There's a lot of th- these things are not new. A lot of problems means you have to take a malfunctioning or dys- dysfunctional status, status as a given in your, uh, for your life.[01:11:48] Anand: And, uh, the motivation is to have a, say, personal and private solutions to overcome them. So it is not a justification of dysfunctional or [01:12:00] disdain or inaction, but I think the action is, um, uh, uh, means you have to say, find out against all odds. That is all. [01:12:10] Abhinandan: Right. Now we'll go on to the emails of the week.[01:12:13] Abhinandan: This week's emails have been curated by Anand Vardhan. If your email has not been included, we will take care of it in our subscriber stake that we record every month. Uh, write in to us at podcasts@newslaurie.com. I repeat, podcasts@newslaurie.com. [01:12:30] We only enter the email of subscribers, so here's a QR code.[01:12:33] Abhinandan: There's a link in the show notes below. Please subscribe pay to keep news free and give us your feedback. And don't forget to join us later this month in June in the town hall through Zoom, so you can tell us what you think- But instead of mail, you can just tell us face to face. So Manisha, what do we have this [01:12:50] Manisha: week?[01:12:50] Manisha: Yes. So Ishita writes in, "Hello. As a PhD researcher studying in the UK- ... I've gone through VFS for visa and continue to do so time and again. I was wondering how this company gained such [01:13:00] a monopoly. Funnily enough, it started in India in Mumbai. Was thinking if there's a story in this, and if you would like to explore it.[01:13:05] Manisha: I wish I could, if not for my PhD right now." So Indian Express actually has a story on this, right? [01:13:11] Song: Hmm. [01:13:12] Manisha: Yeah. [01:13:12] Song: They did. [01:13:12] Manisha: But write in to us, Ishita, if you have any ideas. Soumya says, "Hi NL team. I have two questions for Anand. In an earlier Hafta episode, Anand said that ECI's approach towards SIR could have been more humane.[01:13:25] Manisha: However, it appears that in the recent judgment by the SC, doesn't make any such observations. So does he still [01:13:30] maintain his stand? And if yes, why did the SC miss it?" The Supreme Court has given a lot of emphasis of purity of electoral rules. Have they given any method to audit the purity? Because after such a massive exercise, the purity reduces, then a lot of public money may have been not utilized prudently.[01:13:46] Anand: There are only two persons who, uh, read a piece that I wrote about it. One is the person speaking, and the other who's copy edited it towards my right. So, uh, [01:14:00] you have obviously not read what I read, uh, wrote about that. So, uh, what is, uh, this? I, I, I have from the beginning, I-- when this K- K- uh, Bihar SIR came, I said that it would be very difficult to legally and constitutionally challenge it.[01:14:18] Anand: I have maintained it throughout, and, uh, it was good in law. But, uh, and the judgment has come now, now about Bihar SIR [01:14:30] and the constitutional and legal validity of the SIR, and Supreme Court said that it is fine. It has also, uh, said that, uh, under Article 326, there can be preliminary e- inquiries made about the citizenship status, though its final determination is the government's rule.[01:14:52] Anand: So yes, the E- E- E- EC, uh, was right on those, um, technicalities, [01:15:00] constitutional and legal points. Uh, but, uh, the thing about human appro- approach is purely a, mm, matter of discretion which administrators have with-- which bureaucrats have. And, uh, i- in exercise of that discretionary power, whether to consider a particular document as, mm, the valid document for voter [01:15:30] eligibility, the EC could have been more considerate and human, I maintain that in Bengal.[01:15:35] Anand: And, uh, i- it went with the, mm, classic, uh, Indian bureaucratic s- bureaucrats' rule book that, uh Um, the distrust every document, distrust every citizen, and that is the safe way out and, uh, put- So it was [01:15:55] Abhinandan: consistent. [01:15:55] Anand: Uh, so, uh, so put, put, uh, everything, uh, [01:16:00] you know, the what, uh, uh, bureaucrats are taught that your only safe ground is the rule book.[01:16:07] Abhinandan: Yeah. [01:16:07] Anand: Uh, so do any kind of thing, but just tick those boxes, you will be safe. If you miss anything out of, uh, out of it, and even if you are, uh, doing right, you would not be. So they took that right even, uh, uh, so a document-obsessed country, uh, gives, uh, a kind of [01:16:30] discretionary power to bureaucrats to make that document very, very sacred for any kind of eligibility, and that they did.[01:16:38] Anand: They could have been more considerate. I mean, uh, why SC didn't m-mention that? Because SC was not hearing the W-West Bengal case. The judgment is about the Bihar SIR, the original challenge to the constitutional and legal validity. I hope I have answered your questions. Uh, but before, [01:16:53] Abhinandan: before Manish, I'll get to that, just a little anecdote.[01:16:55] Abhinandan: Uh, I have a neighbor who is, I think, probably in his early 80s now. He [01:17:00] retired a very senior bureaucrat. He was from IIT, then he cracked the UPSC, then he became bureaucrat, and he was telling me that ... Uh, you know, he was talking about the takeover of this. He says, "You know, when I was in IIT, opposite IIT, that was all jungle."[01:17:13] Song: Hmm. "[01:17:13] Abhinandan: There was, there was no colonies here. N-none of this existed. It was just forest, and we used to go for a run, et cetera, over there. So, you know, after I, you know, was taking my UPSC, et cetera, my fa-- I ha-- my father used to write to me every third day or fourth day, and I had to reply. And he asked me, 'I [01:17:30] hope you're going for your regular runs and making sure you remain fit.'[01:17:34] Abhinandan: I said, because I've been trained as a bureaucrat, I didn't want to lie. I wasn't. So for that weekend, I went for a run, and I answered in the letter 'cause I would never lie to my father, 'Yes, Father, I went for a run today.'" So it was not wrong. He says, "That is what we're trained to do as bureaucrats."[01:17:55] Rinchen: So [01:17:57] Manisha: a failed example, but brilliant. Aditya Sareeb says, "Hello, I'm a big fan of your [01:18:00] work. I've been a subscriber for the past one year, and I also encourage my family to do so. I usually listen to News Laundry over long drives and flights. However, lately I've been having problems with the app. The same episode of Charcha played no matter what podcast I start.[01:18:13] Manisha: I was not able to listen to 425 episode, as only the 424 episode played when I tried to play the 425-- 425th episode. I couldn't listen to both Charcha and Haftaa this week. Please fix this. Is there a Spotify version or a video version? I'm getting frustrated with the app." There is a video [01:18:30] version. There's a YouTube- [01:18:30] Abhinandan: There is a video version.[01:18:31] Abhinandan: The RSS is sent, but, uh, just we released on the iOS, I'm guessing it's gone out to everybody, the updated version. I got the update on my phone. The Android update went out the week before that. The iOS version went out last week. Just update the app, and please write in to us and see if it's working okay for you.[01:18:47] Abhinandan: We had fixed, uh, many of these bugs in that update. Rohanbir [01:18:51] Manisha: Singh says, "The College Scholastic Ability Test in South Korea is the country's standardized admission test for admissions in universities. A Korean friend told [01:19:00] me that one, on the day of the Suneung..." Suneung, how will you pronounce it? Of this test, basically.[01:19:04] Manisha: Suneung. Oh. [01:19:05] Song: Hmm. "[01:19:05] Manisha: The entire country adjusts itself around students. The stock markets and Busan and Seoul open late." Hmm. "Public transport, including the metro system, railways, and bus services increase to avoid traffic jams and allow students to get to the testing sites more easily. The Korean armed forces change the schedule of military activities to minimize the noise level.[01:19:23] Manisha: Flights are grounded during the English listening section so that the aircraft noise does not disturb the students." My God, yeah. Wow. This is [01:19:30] like Southeast Asian precision- Government ... which I love. Government. Flights are grounded. Ah. "In some cases, students running late are escorted to their test centers by police officers on motorcycles.[01:19:40] Manisha: This is what it looks like when a country treats education as a national priority. There's a reason some countries are way ahead of the rest." [01:19:46] Song: Hmm. [01:19:47] Manisha: You are-- don't agree? [01:19:48] Anand: Sutna, can you- I, I think there are m-multiple exams in India and a country of, say- Size, yeah ... South Korean size and... But I would like to say that, uh, China has [01:20:00] one- Hmm[01:20:00] Anand: uh, test for university, and that's the central test, and it has same kind of, say, pr- uh, precision about it, and it's the con-considered the, the most coveted test in China. China has, uh, an examination system which goes back, uh, to ancient world. Do you know where, from where, uh, just giving you a trivia, the word Mandarin comes?[01:20:26] Anand: Mandarin is a synonym for bureaucrats, [01:20:30] like, uh- Yeah. Yeah, yeah ... s-so, uh- Hmm. Yeah ... like, uh, South Block Mandarin- South Block Mandarins, yeah ... or whatnot. Yeah, yeah. So Mandarins, uh, in China, China in a-ancient China, and that we are talking about before Christ era, and, uh- There was a very systematic civil services examination system, and people who were eligible to write that civil service examination were [01:21:00] people who had enrolled into Mandarin schools.[01:21:03] Anand: So, uh, Mandarin schools, they only used to write that examination. So by default, any bureaucrat was called Mandarin, and from there that word comes. So, um, this, uh, region, uh, has a very, very long tradition of that sanctity for examination and- [01:21:25] Manisha: Method Man says, "I'm guessing you'll discuss Haliling this week."[01:21:29] Manisha: We did, I [01:21:30] think last to last week. Mm. "I wish you wouldn't because I've not seen such a dumb controversy in my life. The question was stupid. The answer was possibly a bit less stupid, but not by much. And to watch the reporter continue to demonstrate her naivety and willful ignorance on her interview with Samar Gowar was enlightening.[01:21:44] Manisha: I do think you should do a proper balanced report on the Press Freedom Index. I don't think it measures anything of value besides India's size, and I think the obvious flaws in the index make it easy to dismiss, and therefore make it harder for the media to air legitimate grievance." Mm. You'll be happy to know that we've done two such pieces.[01:21:58] Manisha: Every time the index comes, [01:22:00] we are actually doing this only that because it is very, very, um... I mean, for us to be above Afghanistan or even places like that don't have governance and- [01:22:10] Rinchen: Below, sorry. [01:22:10] Manisha: Below, sorry. Yeah. Makes no sense. Uh, but I feel like, I think Sohasini did a very good job, and everyone should watch that episode.[01:22:18] Manisha: It's out of the paywall, The Haafta, where she really put things in perspective on what this journalist... I mean, no one's saying she's some India whatever watcher and knows everything and some great whatever. [01:22:30] But she also explains, I think you should just watch it actually. Just watch that episode because she really puts everything in perspective, where this journalist was coming from, what it means for our own media within the country, and how this government has been responding to the media in general.[01:22:43] Manisha: So those are not stupid issues, I think. [01:22:46] Abhinandan: Right. And with that, wanna remind you again, do also listen to our partner organization News Minute's podcast, weekly podcast called South Central, where they will be discussing the Tamil Nadu political upheavals [01:23:00] and Kerala's menstrual leave policy, um, f- a- and for, for schoolchildren as well.[01:23:05] Abhinandan: But before we wind up, let's get the recommendations for the week. Manisha, you wanna go first? [01:23:11] Manisha: Yes. Mm-hmm. I will only recommend News Laundry stuff this week because I think we have some amazing stuff which everyone should read and watch, especially if you're a subscriber. We have one report, if you're in Delhi and you think that summer means great air and let's start running, let's be outdoors, it's so fantastic, then please read this report, Delhi's cleanest May in [01:23:30] five years is a toxic illusion.[01:23:31] Manisha: What we are breathing continues to be poison. We're just not seeing it in the way that we see it in winters, and it's just not made into the big deal that it is every time Diwali's around the corner or farm fires are around the corner. We are living in complete apocalyptic, you know, scape, if that's a word, and please read this report.[01:23:53] Manisha: It's really good. Um, also do check out Aastha's excellent investigation on, uh, the [01:24:00] Food Corporation of India and how Adani has cornered much of it. Hmm. It's a really good investigation. It's for our subscribers only, so if you are a subscriber, you possibly are if you're listening to it behind the paywall, do check this out.[01:24:12] Manisha: Give it your eyeballs, your likes, your shares, and share it with your friends and family who are not supporters or subscribers of News Laundry. And finally, an interview that gave me a lot of hope, and I've been elated all week because I got to talk to this 18-year-old who I think is just fabulous. This is also just for our [01:24:30] subscribers, so do check it out if you are our subscribers.[01:24:33] Manisha: And if you're not, then, uh, there's a little trailer which, on our YouTube channel, which should make you wanna listen to the whole conversation. Please, please, please do watch [01:24:42] Abhinandan: it. Here's a promo.[01:24:52] Manisha: Are you getting a lot of female attention from your peers? Or like... S- [01:24:57] teaser: sad moment. [01:24:59] Manisha: Sad [01:25:00] moment? [01:25:01] teaser: NDTV tries to contact me and send reporters over to my house. Hmm. The, uh, the reporter called me and asked, uh, "Send me your address." [01:25:08] Manisha: Hmm. [01:25:08] teaser: That, that [01:25:09] Manisha: felt like a threat. So- Would you, would you call yourself a nerd?[01:25:13] teaser: Yeah, I would call myself- Oh. I would, like, call myself a dork, more [01:25:16] Manisha: sort of. Dork? [01:25:16] teaser: Yeah, a dork. [01:25:18] Manisha: And what is that? [01:25:18] teaser: Uh, that is, like, less, less knowledgeable nerd. [01:25:21] Manisha: If the, uh, CBSE was to call you tomorrow- Sure ... and if the education minister was to call you tomorrow, what is the one suggestion you would like to give [01:25:30] after all of this to them?[01:25:30] Manisha: Be [01:25:31] teaser: transparent and be accountable. Anand. [01:25:34] Anand: I'm recommending, uh, a book, uh, that I read, reread after so many years, uh, "A House for Mr. Biswas" by V.S. Naipaul. And I take the clue from what she was saying earlier and what Hirdesh was saying in one of the shows for this book recommendation, because I remembered an episode in that, uh, book which, uh, was similar to that, and my protest against that.[01:26:00] [01:26:00] Anand: The Hirdesh said that, uh, in early summer there were some cool days and we were happy- Hmm ... but this. So I said that why should not be happy? Why so-- So if the air is less toxic, okay, why should not be happy for five days? [01:26:17] Manisha: Because we should be [01:26:18] Anand: happy. No. Our [01:26:19] Manisha: expectations used to be very- [01:26:20] Anand: I don't let-- In a short life, one should not look for a long-term happiness stability.[01:26:27] Song: Say what you [01:26:27] Anand: get. So in that book, there [01:26:30] is, um, there is an episode when, uh, I, an old man calls, uh, the young Mr. Biswas to read out from one of the newspapers, and his favorite, uh, column is a doctor's column. And he says that, uh, he liked that the doctor talked about a new danger to human bo-body every week.[01:26:53] Anand: So that, that, that is the, mm, that is the, I think, hunting ground of [01:27:00] journalists and activists, a new danger to the society every w-week. So if you are happy for something, be happy for five days that air is, air is less toxic. And, uh, Hirdesh said that, uh, air was cool. Okay, I am happy for five days. What is your problem with that?[01:27:17] Abhinandan: Rinchin. [01:27:18] Rinchen: Uh, couple of things. Uh, one is this YouTube, uh, video I saw. Uh, it's by this YouTuber called Mr. Whose The Boss. He's a DC, uh- This is [01:27:29] Abhinandan: the phone wala? [01:27:29] Rinchen: [01:27:30] Phone wala. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [01:27:30] Abhinandan: Fascinating. [01:27:31] Rinchen: Fascinating stuff. Uh, so I invest- So the title of the video is "I Investigated India's Biggest Smartphone Controversy."[01:27:38] Rinchen: Um, I'm not-- No, no spoilers. I just recommend you-- I just recommend everyone watch this. Yeah, [01:27:42] Abhinandan: even I was taken aback. [01:27:44] Rinchen: It's, it's quite a staggering piece of, uh, I don't know what content is, what you would call it. Uh, second is a piece in The New Yorker. Um, I'm a big NBA fan, a basketball fan, besides being a football fan as well, and there's a-- So the playoffs are going on right now.[01:27:59] Rinchen: And- The New [01:27:59] Abhinandan: [01:28:00] York selling one against- [01:28:01] Rinchen: Yeah ... Spurs game one. Against Spurs game one. But, uh, this is one after the Western Conference Finals between the Spurs and Oklahoma City, the defending champions. And it's about that game And it's a piece by, uh, Louisa Thomas in The New Yorker. Uh, it's so-called-- The piece is called Victor Wembanyama, who's the star player for the San Antonio Spurs, Towers Over the Thunder and the Game of Basketball.[01:28:22] Rinchen: It's so-- I mean, I'm a sucker for good sports journalism, and this is one piece I would recommend. He [01:28:27] Abhinandan: was 7'4" [01:28:29] Rinchen: French guy, right? [01:28:30] 7'4" French guy. Um- Mm. [01:28:30] Abhinandan: Yeah, man. [01:28:31] Rinchen: Yeah. Su-super fascinating character also. [01:28:33] Abhinandan: Amazing. [01:28:33] Rinchen: Yeah. [01:28:34] Abhinandan: So I have two recommendations. Uh, one, uh- This explainer on this whole Rajesh Exports thing- [01:28:42] Song: Hmm[01:28:43] Abhinandan: uh, by, um, the podcast called Finshots Daily. Hmm. In about eight, 10 minutes they've explained this whole Pasra. It's, it's a, a good one. Uh, that is one recommendation. The second is, of [01:29:00] course, Manisha's recommendation of young Sarthak's interview. And the third recommendation is actually just some Gyan. [01:29:08] Song: Hmm.[01:29:09] Abhinandan: A pr- I don't know why he gave this Gyan out of the blue yesterday. I don't know whether he's talking to the government or to who, but, uh, Baba Sudhir Chaudhary, who also- Hmm ... sometimes does journalism, sometimes does lectures, sometimes is walking alone but someone's taking photographs and he's talking about the beauty of being solitary, you know, contemplativeness.[01:29:30] [01:29:30] Abhinandan: He g- g- put out this piece of Gyan in his show [01:29:37] Sudhir: yesterday. So yeah, you don't know this trend? So I thought, what the[01:29:45] Abhinandan: fuck?[01:29:52] Abhinandan: But yeah, Baba Ji Gyan ... [01:29:56] Manisha: So yeah, a trend, uh, which, uh, actually you should see because all these, uh, [01:30:00] news anchors now they end, uh, their show with a positive quote. So it started with Sudhir because he would come up with like stuff like,[01:30:11] Manisha: "If you are ... like stuff like this. [01:30:13] Abhinandan: That's a positive quote. Like wh- what the [01:30:15] Manisha: fuck? Then, then Anjana started copying it, then Chitra started doing it. So all these anchors at the end have like really... We- we did an episode also with some really funny gems. So [01:30:26] Abhinandan: we unfortunately leave you hafta with a song [01:30:30] or sometimes a poem, but I'll try to come up with my own quotes in future.[01:30:34] Abhinandan: But today I'm leaving you with back in my days of many, many protests that I have been a part of, the most significant being the whole Jan Lokpal. We used to play several songs through the day, and a lot of them were Bapu songs that I really liked. We used to play the Bhagat Singh songs often. But my favorite song whenever we used to play, I used to find it most charge worthy.[01:30:57] Abhinandan: I'm going to play that for you. So I'll leave you with my [01:31:00] favorite song from my days of Jan Lokpal. Have a great week. Good luck, we'll see whose script plays out. Thank you, Anand. Thank you, Manisha. Thank you, Rinchin. Thank you. Thank you to our sound recordist, Anil. Thank you to our producer, Amit. And thank you to all of you who've subscribed.[01:31:13] Abhinandan: Those of you who haven't, do consider it. Pay to keep news free, 'cause whether anyone protests or not, we wanna keep asking uncomfortable questions. That's our job. Bye-bye.[01:31:30] [01:32:00] [01:32:13] Manisha: Thank you for your subscription. You're changing the world by changing the way news is funded. For the smoothest News Laundry experience, download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our paywall podcasts, and you'll also get access to all free News Laundry shows. Keep us ad-free and [01:32:30] subscriber funded.[01:32:31] Manisha: Help us grow. Tell people who listen to you to pay to keep news free. Subscribe to News Laundry. Keep journalism independent

2026/6/6

‘Be transparent. Be accountable’: The teen who shook India’s education system

In this exclusive conversation with Manisha Pande, the boy from Bokaro talks about growing up in a city where nobody asked questions, losing his father, building civic tech tools to fix potholes, and stumbling onto one of India’s biggest education scandals. <figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-06-04/nvbo0xiv/manisha-x-Sarthak-final.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutouts of Sarthak Sidhant and Manisha Pande, with a speech bubble that says "Who reads tenders at your age", and bold text above: This Kid Shook CBSE." referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure><figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/NSNkn1MwtjA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://youtu.be/NSNkn1MwtjA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure><iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ebe751be3f889048a3fe4c0/6a21b052ac951431d776b10c" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe>He doesn’t own a phone. He calls himself a dork. He grew up in a city where nobody asked questions. And his revelatory blog was a major reason the CBSE chairman and secretary were transferred.Sarthak Sidhant is not who you’d expect an investigator to look like. Soft-spoken, self-deprecating, and quietly funny, the 18-year-old from Bokaro spent his childhood surrounded by computers: using a mouse at three, raised by two computer engineers who ran their own academy. But it wasn’t technology alone that shaped him. He was growing up in Bokaro, a PSU-owned city controlled by a steel plant, where broken roads stayed broken and nobody was accountable to anyone. “You don’t get to question who is your mayor. You don’t get to question roads because they are never going to be fixed.” The civic rage never left him.When his father passed away and the family moved to Ranchi, something shifted. Suddenly there were politicians to question, wards to investigate, potholes to fix. Sarthak started building civic technology tools, including a website that automatically mails the responsible official when someone reports a pothole. That project led him straight into the world of government tenders. And that, eventually, led him to CBSE.When thousands of students flooded social media with complaints about the botched On-Screen Marking re-evaluation, Sarthak did what most seasoned journalists hadn’t thought to do: he read the tender. What he found raised serious questions about how Coempt Eduteck was selected to carry out the process. He published a blog post. The sources were attached at the bottom. Last week, he presented his findings before a parliamentary panel. Days later, the CBSE chairman and secretary were removed.In this exclusive, wide-ranging conversation with Manisha Pande, Sarthak talks about all of it. His formative years, losing his father, the inter-caste marriage that made his parents quietly progressive, the internet freedom that made him fearless, and the moment he knew he had a smoking gun. He also talks about going viral without a phone, building a positive echo chamber to deal with trolls, being called antinational, and the one question Manisha couldn’t resist asking – whether all this fame had finally gotten him some female attention.Sad moment.Watch the full interview. <a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/subscription?ref=header">Subscribe </a>to Newslaundry for more conversations that go where others won’t.‘Getting panic attacks’: College deadlines loom with students trapped in CBSE chaos

2026/6/4

Behind Annamalai’s exit from BJP

Also from Tamil Nadu, we found out who from the Congress the TVK is likely to nominate to the Rajya Sabha.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-06-02/83xtgmro/thenewsminute2026-06-0273swbok2Annamalai-PT.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="A cutout of K Annamalai. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>Welcome to this week’s Powertrip, a political newsletter curated exclusively for subscribers of The News Minute and Newslaundry. This week’s edition is by Dhanya Rajendran, Shabbir Ahmed, and Pooja Prasanna.Annamalai has dominated the headlines recently with news of quitting the BJP and starting his own political venture. But why did he decide it was time to leave? Where will he get support and funding from? And what did the RSS have to say in the whole saga? We spoke to sources close to Annamalai and others to find out.In another story from Tamil Nadu, we learnt who are the Congress contenders for the Rajya Sabha seat from the state.<iframe class="trinity-player trinity-iframe" src="https://trinitymedia.ai/player/trinity-i/2900013399/?pageURL=https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/06/03/behind-annamalais-exit-from-bjp&readContentType=URL" style="border: 0; width: 100% !important; height: 90px !important" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe> <h2>Inside Track</h2><h4>Exclusive stories, for your eyes only</h4><h3>Behind Annamalai’s exit from BJP</h3>When Kuppusamy Annamalai joined the BJP in 2020, the party was exuberant, recalling that he was popularly known as ‘Singham’. Annamalai too was effusive, describing himself as a nationalist who admired Narendra Modi. Six years later, that bonhomie ends, with Annamalai informing the leadership that he wants to resign.But was this a sudden decision? Did the BJP not try to persuade him to stay back? What about the RSS? How will Annamalai fund his new political venture? These are some of the questions lingering in everyone’s minds, and that is what we will try to address in this edition of Powertrip.Those close to Annamalai say he has been toying with the idea of leaving the BJP for several months, much before the Assembly elections. He reportedly decided to wait until the elections were over before making his move.So how did the relationship deteriorate?When Annamalai joined the BJP, the leadership believed he could make a significant dent in Tamil Nadu politics. Some say he may have oversold his capabilities, leading the BJP to believe it could make serious inroads in the state. But that did not materialise, even in 2024 when a few seats from Tamil Nadu could have dramatically altered the numbers for Narendra Modi’s government at the Union level.Sources say this was when Amit Shah slowly began distancing himself from Annamalai.Months before the election, the BJP’s main ally, the AIADMK, had walked out of the NDA. Their primary grievance was Annamalai. According to sources, Shah gradually stopped consulting him on key decisions.The bigger trouble, however, came from Finance Minister Nirmala Sitharaman, who had by then started directly involving herself in the Tamil Nadu BJP’s internal affairs. A source close to Annamalai said Sitharaman worked with a former BJP leader to ensure Annamalai was sidelined.Annamalai has reportedly told several confidants that the BJP should never have aligned with the AIADMK and that many decisions were driven more by hostility towards the DMK than political strategy.With little future left for him within the BJP, he began planning his exit.Annamalai believes that a section of young voters, particularly the urban and semi-urban middle class, could eventually become disillusioned with the newly elected Tamilaga Vettri Kazhagam (TVK). He also feels there is space for a new political party in Tamil Nadu as fatigue with both the DMK and the AIADMK continues to grow.But while anyone can aspire to launch a political party, the bigger question is support and funding.According to several people we spoke to, discussions have been held on his behalf with prominent persons, particularly from the Kongu region. We are told that a group running educational institutions, a leading industrialist, and even a business association disillusioned with both the DMK and the BJP are also likely to support his party when needed.In addition, Annamalai is also believed to be popular among a right-wing economic group in the United States, which could potentially extend backing.Over the last few days, he has also met several news editors across the country to discuss his plans.In these meetings, Annamalai has reportedly been candid about certain campaigns he took up for the BJP, which he now believes were misguided positions. He also spoke about his plans to launch a political party or movement within the next few months.Before that, however, he is likely to undertake a yatra across districts in Tamil Nadu to assess the kind of support he can draw, both from the public and from second-tier leaders across various political parties.But did everyone in the BJP want him to leave? Annamalai certainly had his share of detractors within the party. There were also discussions about offering him a Rajya Sabha seat or even a Minister of State position.We are also told that in the last week of May, RSS leaders met Annamalai in a bid to persuade him to stay back. These meetings reportedly took place on the outskirts of Bengaluru. But once again, Annamalai is said to have told them that he had made up his mind.However, in politics, a no need not be a no. So we will wait for the official resignation and acceptance, and then for the next chapter to begin.<h3>TVK likely to nominate Praveen Chakravarty for Rajya Sabha</h3>All India Professionals Congress (AIPC) chairman Praveen Chakravarty is likely to be nominated to the Rajya Sabha from Tamil Nadu, courtesy of Tamilaga Vettri Kazhagam.According to TVK sources, the decision to allot a Rajya Sabha seat to the Congress was part of the understanding reached between the Congress leadership and TVK.The Congress, which won five seats, was the first party to leave the DMK-led Secular Progressive Alliance and extend support to TVK, which had emerged as the single largest party with 108 seats. The Congress party secured two cabinet berths in the TVK government’s Council of Ministers.Praveen was one of the few Congress leaders advocating a pre-poll alliance between TVK and the Congress. He had also met TVK chief Vijay and held a closed-door interaction with him in December 2025. After being sworn in as Chief Minister, Vijay referred to Praveen as a “dear friend” in his first speech.Meanwhile, a few other Congress leaders are also lobbying for the Rajya Sabha seat. Within a span of 24 hours, top Congress leaders such as P Chidambaram and TNCC president Selvaperunthagai met CM Vijay, citing various reasons.The Rajya Sabha seat fell vacant after AIADMK senior leader C Ve Shanmugam resigned from the Upper House following his victory from the Mailam Assembly constituency in Tamil Nadu.<h2>Zero Hour</h2><h4>A political story of public importance</h4><h3><a href="https://scroll.in/article/1093123/india-could-weather-ai-jobs-apocalypse-by-tapping-its-demographic-dividend">India could weather ‘AI jobs apocalypse’ by tapping its bountiful human capital</a></h3><figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-06-02/y6ja076a/thenewsminute2026-06-02lhpgddt2indiai.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>India could weather ‘AI jobs apocalypse’ by tapping its bountiful human capital<h2>Powermoves</h2><h5>Top 5 political stories</h5><ol><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/karnataka/who-can-inherit-siddaramaiahs-social-justice-legacy-heres-a-list">Who can inherit Siddaramaiah’s social justice legacy? Here’s a list</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/tamil-nadu/tn-minister-arunraj-objects-to-saffron-clad-thiruvalluvar-portrait-at-governors-event">TN Minister Arunraj objects to saffron-clad Thiruvalluvar portrait at Governor's event</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/news/how-old-is-monalisa-bhosle-two-states-many-truths-behind-an-interreligious-marriage">How old is Monalisa Bhosle? Two states & many truths behind an interreligious marriage</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/telangana/telangana-cm-draws-action-plan-to-protect-votes-of-vulnerable-sections-in-sir">Telangana CM draws action plan to protect votes of vulnerable sections in SIR</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/andhra-pradesh/ap-govt-seeks-to-restrict-hrf-social-media-posts-against-google-adani-data-centre">AP govt seeks to restrict HRF social media posts against Google Adani data centre</a></ins></li></ol>

2026/6/3

Hafta 591: Banaras redevelopment, Delhi Gymkhana takeover and CBSE’s OSM fiasco

The podcast where we discuss the week’s news. <figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-16/egtq656l/HAFTA-NEW.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="New Hafta cartoon featuring cutouts of Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal, and Abhinandan Sekhri. " referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>This week on Hafta, Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande and Shardool Katyayan are joined by senior journalist Alpana Kishore and educationist Anita Rampal to discuss heritage, development, ideology, public spaces, and the current challenges facing India’s education system. Alpana argues that the changes unfolding in Banaras are not simply about modernisation. Drawing parallels with her decades of reporting in Kashmir, she says the driving force behind such interventions is ideology. “There’s only one reason that any government would mess with anything – ecology, heritage, community, social – and that is ideology.” She describes ideology as something that “trumps faith, trumps tradition, trumps heritage, trumps cultural tradition, trumps everything.” Manisha widens the discussion by examining how governments use architecture and public spaces to create political legacies. "I've always been fascinated by how this government is reshaping public spaces and what it says about this government," she says. Referring to projects ranging from Central Vista to the Kashi Vishwanath corridor, she argues that PM Modi sees monuments and public spaces as a way of leaving a permanent mark on history. “Modi does see himself as an emperor in that sense, and he wants to reshape India as his legacy.” Abhinandan approaches the debate from the perspective of public benefit. While acknowledging that redevelopment is sometimes necessary, he questions what citizens receive in return. “Destroy what you want... but give me a forest over there. Don't give me uglier structures,” he remarks. The discussion then moves to CBSE's on-screen marking (OSM) fiasco and the broader problems within India’s examination framework. Educationist Anita Rampal strongly rejects the idea that better technology automatically produces better assessment. “I don't think we should have gone into this scanning process at all for assessment. That is not how we do assessment,” she says. Describing the work of teachers evaluating answer sheets, she stresses that assessment requires judgment, context, and professional expertise. “Don't make us into machines.” Rampal recounts reports from teachers who were monitored while checking answer sheets. “One teacher told me that someone who took a little longer got a phone call asking, ‘Why is this person taking so long?’” She describes a system obsessed with speed rather than accuracy, concluding: “We are being watched. We cannot assess this way.” Shardool, meanwhile, challenges the assumption that digital systems are inherently superior. “Digital is not some separate intelligence. It is trained by humans, managed by humans and requires constant updating.” All this and more.<figure><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-ZilqvarDMM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="true" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe><figcaption><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZilqvarDMM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Watch on YouTube</a></figcaption></figure><iframe src="https://embed.acast.com/5ec3d9497cef7479d2ef4798/6a1a7b2ead55909da6fe25ce" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="190px" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe>If you want to write to Hafta, <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/podcast-letters">click here</a></ins>. Click <ins><a href="http://newslaundry.com/sena">here</a></ins> to contribute to our Sena project. Check out the<ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/store?routeName=NlStore"> Newslaundry store</a></ins> and flaunt your love for independent media. Download the<ins><a href="http://www.newslaundry.com/download-app"> Newslaundry app</a></ins>. Song: <ins><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV6NFRbDIz8">Koi hath bhi na milayega jo gale miloge tapak se</a></ins>Timecodes00:00:00 - Introductions and announcements00:03:52 - Headlines00:09:07 - Banaras urbanisation and Gymkhana club row00:56:37 -  Alpana’s recommendation01:01:24 - CBSE row 01:27:14 - RecommendationsReferences<ins><a href="https://pages.razorpay.com/pl_Sjb0oSIhFsIDTK/view">Press Freedom Month</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/05/23/if-tagore-were-alive-today-hed-be-called-anti-national">If Tagore were alive today, he’d be called ‘anti-national’</a></ins> <ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/05/23/i-started-a-jokenow-i-get-death-threats-abhijeet-dipke-on-indias-cockroach-party">‘I started a joke…now I get death threats’: Cockroach Janata Party founder speaks</a></ins><ins><a href="https://indianexpress.com/article/express-exclusive/ministrys-special-fund-is-for-top-athletes-bureaucrats-dip-into-it-to-upgrade-their-own-sports-facilities-10688256/">Exclusive: Funds meant for athletes routed to bureaucrats’ pools, clubs, colonies</a></ins>RecommendationsAbhinandan<ins><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/11/opinion/israel-palestinians-sexual-violence.html">The Silence that meets the rape of Palestinians</a></ins><ins><a href="https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/former-cec-sy-quraishi-on-sir-judgment-supreme-court-10712200/">Former CEC on SIR judgment: It gets the law right, the ground reality almost entirely wrong</a></ins>Manisha <ins><a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt34611082/">Ladies First</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/05/29/anti-monopoly-clause-gone-adanis-footprint-grew-across-indias-grain-storage-programme">Govt removes anti-monopoly clause, Adani wins another battlefield. This time, Rs 9,700 cr FCI contracts</a></ins>Shardool <ins><a href="https://www.hindwi.org/kavita/kawiyon-ki-kahani-krishna-kalpit-kavita">कवियों की कहानी</a></ins><ins><a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2026/04/09/social-media-detox/">This detox may erase 10 years of social media brain damage, researchers say</a></ins>Check out <ins><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VCmV6yr5t1LHE77Xp5-cYhWrQSkhW3A8nix310MvRQU/edit?usp=sharing">previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters</a>.</ins>Produced by Amit Pandey with production assistance from Sourav. Sound by Anil Kumar.[00:00:00] manisha: This is a News Laundry podcast and you're listening to NL Hafta[00:00:11] Abhinandan: अंग्रेज अपना लगान और News Laundry अपना हफ्ता कभी नहीं छोड़ते। Welcome to another episode of NL Hafta। We are recording this on May 29th, Friday at 11:40 AM। Before I introduce a very special panel today actually, I would like to remind you that this is the last hafta [00:00:30] before the Freedom Of Press offer month lapses। So there's a QR code flashing on your screen right now, and there is a link in the show notes। If you haven't already, please subscribe। Gift a subscription because on this Press Freedom Month you get some added benefits and discounts। And remember, pay to keep news free because we can do what we do because we take no ads from governments, corporations। We survive on subscriptions by people like you। Do not fail us। Press Freedom Month, we try to [00:01:00] inspire you with where the mind is without fear because it is also Rabindranath Tagore's birthday in the first week of this month। If you weren't inspired enough by then, then maybe we-- you'll find something in this podcast that will। So with me on the panel today is, uh, Manisha Pandey.[00:01:15] manisha: Hello. [00:01:16] Abhinandan: Our regular, Shardul Katyan. [00:01:18] Shardool: Hello. [00:01:20] Abhinandan: And Alpana Kishor, my former boss. [00:01:22] manisha: First boss. [00:01:23] Abhinandan: First? First boss, yes, first. Yeah. Correct. Uh, f- I mean, first and with Madhu probably [00:01:30] my only two, if you count Meera Nair was just a film that I did. Mm. So first let me do the aupcharik introduction of Alpana Kishor.[00:01:37] Abhinandan: Alpana Kishor is a journalist and contemporary visual artist recognized for her critical perspectives. Her career encompasses television, print medias, social political commentary, and mixed media printmaking and installations. She is distinguished for her view on Indian public policy and state governance, frequently contributing to discourse on large scale state-sponsored projects that disrupt heritage, ecology, and [00:02:00] communities such as the Central Vista project and the Manasarovar Kashi Vishwanath Temple.[00:02:04] Abhinandan: Both those series of reports have been done by Alpana. And, uh, those of you who may have seen our earlier LTA and the Haftaan Kashmir, Alpana reported extensively on Kashmir when it was the sexiest story in the world. In fact, she... You're the only one who has actually interviewed a terrorist not in captivity, in the wild, right?[00:02:23] Alapana Kishore: I don't know whether I'm the only one, but I'm the, probably the only one who interviewed such a, a wanted terrorist- Mas [00:02:29] Abhinandan: [00:02:30] Gol ... [00:02:30] Alapana Kishore: Mas Gol. Yeah. Uh, who, who of course was never caught. [00:02:33] Abhinandan: And you were blindfolded and taken to the forest. [00:02:35] Alapana Kishore: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:02:36] Abhinandan: So- [00:02:37] Alapana Kishore: Yes ... [00:02:37] Abhinandan: so I f- I, whatever, where can you... Where was the media when the media was there?[00:02:42] Abhinandan: You were not watching. You were reading Tinkle comics- ... and probably bathing in the nalis of your, uh, neighborhood. But there were journalists doing kickass work back then. Just 'cause you're not aware of it didn't mean it didn't happen. No, and [00:02:52] Alapana Kishore: we covered the Kashmiri Pandit, uh- Exodus, yeah ... exodus hugely.[00:02:56] Alapana Kishore: Yeah. My God, we have so many stories on that. [00:02:58] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:02:58] Alapana Kishore: And, you know, I personally [00:03:00] did two of them, so I remember very clearly that all this thing about, "Okay, you never, where were you? Where were you?" It was splashed in headlines. It was all over the place, and we did a lot of coverage, uh, at that point in time, so.[00:03:11] Abhinandan: And we will talk about that in a show we have coming up, which we will do with Alpana called Back in Time, but maybe in a couple of months. We'll be starting a new series. Also joining us later in the show will be Anita Rampal, who will talk about what is happening with NEET and CBSE and generally the exams in the country.[00:03:28] Video : Hmm. [00:03:30] [00:03:30] Abhinandan: But, uh, before we get into discussing what is happening with property takeovers from Central Vista to Kashi Vishwanath, and now more recently, uh, the Gymkhana Club, just the entire procedure and the almost... What, what do they say whenever there is anything happens? There is a toolkit. [00:03:49] manisha: Hmm. [00:03:49] Abhinandan: The toolkit behind takeovers of most lands in, uh, Delhi and other- That's a nice headline-[00:03:54] Abhinandan: parts of India ... [00:03:54] manisha: toolkit of the takeover. [00:03:56] Abhinandan: Takeover toolkit for real estate in India by this government. Let's get the headlines [00:04:00] first. [00:04:00] manisha: Yeah. Union Education Minister Dharmendra Pradhan said the government had acknowledged discrepancies in CBSE's on-screen marking evaluation process and accepted responsibility for them.[00:04:11] manisha: This must be the first minister ever who's accepted responsibility, so we're making incremental gains. The OSM system used to evaluate class 12 answer sheets has faced massive criticism all of last two weeks. There have been scores of complaints from students about mismatched answer sheets, uh, wrong answer sheets, unable to [00:04:30] get reevaluation done, so we'll get into that.[00:04:32] manisha: The Supreme Court upheld the legality of the Election Commission's special intensive revision of electoral roles, saying the exercise advances the constitutional imperative of free and fair elections. [00:04:42] Video : Hmm. [00:04:43] manisha: In a major development in Karnataka politics, Siddaramaiah resigned as chief minister of the state.[00:04:48] manisha: Deputy Chief Minister DK Shivakumar shall succeed as CM. The Delhi High Court refused to give interim relief to the Delhi Gymkhana Club in its case against the union government order, asking it to hand over the [00:05:00] 27.3 acre premises by June 5th. The Assam Assembly passed the Uniform Civil Code Bill, which seeks to ban polygamy and make registration of live-in relationships mandatory.[00:05:11] manisha: Opposition parties demanded that the bill be sent to a select committee for review. So after Uttarakhand and Gujarat, young couples will have to- Register ... get their, yeah. [00:05:21] Abhinandan: Such is life. [00:05:22] manisha: A Singapore court has sentenced BYJU'S founder, Byju Raveendran, to six months in jail for contempt of court. The court said Raveendran had [00:05:30] failed to comply with several orders related to his assets since April 2024.[00:05:34] manisha: The Wrestling Federation of India has approached the Supreme Court, challenging a Delhi High Court order that allowed wrestler Vinesh Phogat to participate in the selection trials for 2026 Asian Games. The High Court gave Phogat the green light to compete, to compete in the trials, observing that WFI's selection policy was exclusionary.[00:05:51] Abhinandan: And, uh, Brij Bhushan Sharan Singh, against who there were allegations of misconduct and inappropriate behavior by several women [00:06:00] wrestlers, and even some men had actually backed them, continues to enjoy not the position, but his son is now, has taken over the position- Yeah, yeah ... that he had. Uh, and in- [00:06:10] Alapana Kishore: WFI [00:06:11] Abhinandan: Predictable news, the BJP Punjab has brought on board as brand ambassador Yo Yo Honey Singh, whose again, views on gender are clear by the lovely songs he sings.[00:06:24] Abhinandan: BJP's brand ambassador. BJP's brand ambassador for drug, that, you know, leave drugs. So I said, "Since you already, you know, got [00:06:30] him on board for leave drugs, get him the Be- Be- Beti Bachao, Beti Padhao also. He should be a brand ambassador. And Preet Vusen Sharan Singh- ... and the Veni Sanger. So, uh, uh- I want to support- Modi Ji with his knees on tone can hang out with his Yo Yo Honey Singh.[00:06:44] manisha: I wanna support Honey Singh. I think he's a feminist. I think you've misunderstood him. The lyrics, "Hai ghar, hai paisa, hai gaadi." [00:06:51] Abhinandan: Huh. "[00:06:52] manisha: Do kap- jodo mein bhejo, ladki ho gayi hamari." It's a anti-dowry song. Oh, [00:06:55] Abhinandan: very [00:06:55] manisha: nice. "Ki aap apni ladki ko bhejo, ghar, paisa, gaadi sab hai. Do kapdo mein bhejo." Good [00:06:59] Abhinandan: [00:07:00] choice. [00:07:00] Shardool: You've probably come up with new song.[00:07:00] Shardool: It's an anti-dowry... Have you heard the old songs? [00:07:03] Abhinandan: No, that's not an old song. She's being ironic. [00:07:05] Shardool: And I wanna say, like, if like hypothetical, if somebody wrote that story and came to an editor they would say like, "This is too improbable, yeah. Be reasonable." Yeah, yeah. It's so- The irony is unbelievable these days[00:07:16] Abhinandan: these days nothing is satire, which is why that line that many standup comics have, our job is hard because politicians and news anchors are doing like Trump's new, that Scott Basant or whatever his name is, that $250 bill- Scott Basant ... with his [00:07:30] face on. [00:07:30] Anita Rampal: Yes. [00:07:31] Abhinandan: And they're also showing it that this is what it'll look like.[00:07:33] Abhinandan: And the law doesn't allow that to happen. Of [00:07:35] Anita Rampal: course. [00:07:36] Abhinandan: But, hmm. [00:07:37] manisha: Okay. ED officials raided the resident of Pinarayi Vijayan in Thiruvananthapuram, and they were attacked by CPIM workers who also vandalized their vehicles. The incident took place while the officials were leaving Vijayan's house after a seven-hour-long search operation.[00:07:50] manisha: A clash over goats brought into Amira Bhandyar Housing Society ahead of Bakrid escalated rapidly when Hindutva groups gathered outside the pro- to [00:08:00] protest and recite Hanuman Chalisa. And the confr- I can't believe this is a headline. The confrontation reached a critical flashpoint when protesters attempted to bring a pig into the area, a provocative move that police narrowly intercepted to prevent a major communal flare up.[00:08:15] manisha: The videos for this are just ridiculous.[00:08:27] Alapana Kishore: Nothing can beat reality. Yeah, yeah. You know? [00:08:30] It's just, uh, I don't think any filmmaker could have thought of this- Yeah ... situation. Yeah Or this kind of, uh, scene. [00:08:35] manisha: The [00:08:36] Alapana Kishore: Hindutva group- You know? Yeah ... sudden [00:08:36] manisha: love for pigs. [00:08:37] Alapana Kishore: Yeah. [00:08:38] Shardool: Even with- [00:08:38] Alapana Kishore: The love for pigs ... the script would have [00:08:39] Shardool: landed, they would say like, "This is ridiculous."[00:08:40] Shardool: Yeah. "Can't be reasonable." [00:08:41] Alapana Kishore: I know. Really. That's true. [00:08:44] manisha: I can't believe. Rajasthan High Court acquitted religious leader. I should not call him a religious leader. He's just a- [00:08:51] Shardool: Cult [00:08:51] manisha: leader ... guy Con [00:08:52] Shardool: man [00:08:52] manisha: Asaram Bapu, in a case related to the alleged gang rape and sexual assault of a minor. In other news, Dera Sacha Sauda chief- Oh, no[00:08:58] manisha: Gurmeet Ram Rahim [00:09:00] walked out of jail again after being granted a 30- That is just amazing ... day parole. That is [00:09:03] Alapana Kishore: true privilege. I'll refer to this again. Mm. This is real elitism. [00:09:06] manisha: This is the 16th time Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh has been released from prison since his conviction in the rape case. [00:09:14] Abhinandan: Are those the headlines?[00:09:15] manisha: Yes. [00:09:15] Abhinandan: All right, great. So, uh, let's start off, you know, with the Banaras project that you did, and then we can talk about what are the criteria or parameters for land takeovers or redoing things. [00:09:30] But before we do that, Arpana, can you just spend two minutes telling us about journalism in the ... I guess you started hosting News Track in '88, '89?[00:09:42] Alapana Kishore: No, '91. '[00:09:43] Abhinandan: 91. [00:09:43] Alapana Kishore: Yeah. [00:09:44] Abhinandan: So what s- spectacular difference do you see on how it was approached then and how it's approached now? [00:09:52] Alapana Kishore: I think the main difference is that nobody's doing it as a, as a professional, uh, which is means you are trained for it, you have certain ethics, you have [00:10:00] certain rules, you have, of the game, et cetera.[00:10:02] Alapana Kishore: So, uh, for instance, the major difference of course is that you don't have to get a balanced point of view. Whereas when we were working at that point in time, we were subject to rules. I mean, we, of course, we, we were, uh, one of the pioneers of television news, as you know. Mm-hmm. So we had to, uh, really be careful what we were doing.[00:10:23] Alapana Kishore: Mm. And if you were showing something like this goats and pigs squealing kind of thing- Mm ... we, I, I'm 100% sure we would [00:10:30] not be allowed to carry it, just because it was so inflammatory. [00:10:33] manisha: Mm. [00:10:33] Alapana Kishore: And it could really set off people or it could disturb people, et cetera. And by [00:10:36] Abhinandan: allow you're not sure about the government, you know?[00:10:38] Alapana Kishore: The gov- Or Madhu or even, uh ... we were subject to certain, uh, uh, Madhu would not allow it. Mm. Uh, which, who was our boss and the editor of, uh, you know, uh, TV Today. She would not allow it. And in those days you just didn't put on these things because there was still a, a fear of conflagration. [00:10:57] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:10:57] Alapana Kishore: You know, for absolutely ridiculous reasons.[00:10:59] Alapana Kishore: There was no net [00:11:00] then, remember? Mm. So there was no internet. It wasn't that people get inflamed by some troll saying [00:11:04] Abhinandan: something. There was no cable, there was no cable TV either. [00:11:05] Alapana Kishore: There was no cable TV. Just [00:11:06] Abhinandan: VHS [00:11:06] Alapana Kishore: tapes. Exactly. So, but in, even that, so you're talking about the visual media. Mm. How does a person get inflamed unless he reads about it in a newspaper- Mm[00:11:14] Alapana Kishore: or he gets- [00:11:14] Abhinandan: Sure ... [00:11:15] Alapana Kishore: view on Doordarshan or something. Mm. So he won't get inflamed. And in small, don't forget this is pre-liberalization India, or just liberalizing India. Mm. We just started liberalizing. So, uh, you don't have that much, uh, ability to be inflamed unless [00:11:30] somebody's consciously throwing an inflammatory thing at you.[00:11:33] Alapana Kishore: Mm. So we would never carry something like this. Secondly, I think the, the biggest lesson that I learned when I was, uh, you know, a young, very young journalist then, and I was, uh, doing a story. I got this scoop, uh, I think it was a Ranbaxy, uh- Mm ... you know, uh, thing. And the father and son were having a huge battle, you know?[00:11:54] Alapana Kishore: And, uh, the father said- Led [00:11:55] Abhinandan: by Mohan Singh. [00:11:56] Alapana Kishore: Yes. And he's made all kinds of allegations against his [00:12:00] own son And I was so excited that I'd got him to say these things- Mm ... you know, on camera and every- And so I came back. They would not allow us to carry it until we got the son. And for the some inexplicable wise reason, the son said, "I'm not speaking."[00:12:15] teachers byte: Mm. [00:12:15] Alapana Kishore: So I had spoken to him. We had done a short interview, then I went to the father, then I came back to the son and I said, "Look, this is what he said." Mm. "What do you have to say?" And he said, "You know, I'm not going to say anything." [00:12:26] manisha: Mm. [00:12:27] Alapana Kishore: So we never carried the sh- the interview, you know? So [00:12:30] that is the biggest change.[00:12:31] Alapana Kishore: Anyone can say anything. I mean, I remember at the time of Aarushi also, people are standing- Mm. I mean, it's a bystander profession. I'm standing here with my phone, Mm. People have said that the maid didn't ring the bell. She came, she killed her. She ... You know, it was just ridiculous. Yeah. There was, there's no factual evidence.[00:12:47] Alapana Kishore: There's no attempt to investigate or find out. There's no attempt to, uh, fact check. So I think that's the biggest difference. Cut to Ria ... Kala Jadu ... [00:12:57] Abhinandan: karti hai. Ha, cut to just say anything and get away with [00:13:00] it. So let me just put the context and you tell us, A, what were your findings in Banaras? What similarities to the Central Vista project?[00:13:08] Abhinandan: And what do you think is the motivation behind the government wanting to take ... Well, like Banaras is a historical city. In fact, even before news, remember I used to make, uh, TV travel shows for Discovery, Nat Geo and all. I think two cities that I've shot most in are Banaras and Amritsar, because every foreign channel wanted one segment on the Golden Temple.[00:13:28] Abhinandan: And Banaras you could, you know- Yeah ... [00:13:30] make five episodes. So your budgetary, it was very good. You land in Banaras, you come out with five episodes because there's so many things to do, right? Now, why would the government want to mess with that heritage, you know, the architecture? And what did you find- [00:13:44] Alapana Kishore: There's only one reason[00:13:44] Alapana Kishore: on the ground? Mm. There's only one reason that any government would mess with anything, ecology, heritage, community, social, whatever you want, and that is ideology And we are reaching to my... I'm [00:14:00] actually fearful because I have, I mentioned this to Manisha when we were discussing Banaras. Yeah. I said to me it reminded me of Kashmir.[00:14:06] Alapana Kishore: And that's so odd because they're two totally different, and, and I've reported on Kashmir for, like, 30 years, you know. Uh, I mean, I started in 1990, you know, uh, '90. So, uh, the key, what, that one thread in common is ideology. It's the Islamist ideology in Kashmir. Uh, also the Azadi strand, but that was completely [00:14:30] bashed and trashed by the Islamists.[00:14:32] Alapana Kishore: So let's say that is the heavyweight dominating the Kashmir conflict was the Islamist ideology. Mm. Azadi was there, but would keep coming and going as and when. And then once the Pakistanis came over, it didn't stand a chance. So let's put Azadi aside for now. But the Islamist ideology started dictating everything, from the way you dressed, from the traditions you kept, from the language you used- Mm[00:14:55] Alapana Kishore: uh, from the way you responded to government or to, uh, you know, [00:15:00] any initiative to democracy. What is your view of the world? So, Hindutva operates in the same way And to me, that was the most interesting thing about Banaras. And my third story, uh, which is based on the scars of the battle between ideology and faith.[00:15:18] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:15:18] Alapana Kishore: That is the key thing that I felt was, um, so prominent, that the ideology is all-dominant. And when you're saying why will- Is [00:15:28] Abhinandan: all-dominant as in it trumps faith? [00:15:29] Alapana Kishore: It [00:15:30] trumps. It- Hmm ... trumps everything. It's, I'm not saying it trumps faith, because faith fights back. [00:15:34] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:15:34] Alapana Kishore: It doesn't ... But in the government side, it trumps faith.[00:15:37] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:15:38] Alapana Kishore: It trumps faith, it trumps tradition, it trumps heritage, it trumps cultural tradition, it trumps everything. I mean, why would you mess with Manikarnika Ghat? Yeah. Which is the most holy ghat. I mean, it's absolutely a mess. I'm not saying it's not. And it needs to have all kinds of money pumped into it to, you know, bring it back to some kind of functional and, and aesthetic space that can [00:16:00] be used well, you know?[00:16:01] Alapana Kishore: Hmm. But it's, these are ... Who are the people who come to Manikarnika Ghat for their cremation? They are local, of course, people from Banaras. But there are thousands of people from kasbas, villages, semi-urban, rural. You know, these are the ... They're not very well off. They're not the mighty and wealthy. No. They don't, they're not looking for electric crematorium or, you know, whatever.[00:16:24] Alapana Kishore: Sure, you can guide them to these things, but they are looking for that tradition that [00:16:30] if I am cremated in Manikarnika, <|diarize|>So Manikarnika is famous for that, that if you are cremated there, you will attain moksha. You will not go through the cycle again of rebirth. Hmm. So all these people come f- come for that.[00:16:46] Alapana Kishore: Now you start ... Uh, look at the arrogance that you don't even think that anything is going to be ... Nobody's gonna say a word to you. You bring the bulldozers in public and start with this pile driver. It's shaking away. It's making this- Yeah ... [00:17:00] massive noise. People are standing around. We, we, sh- I, we showed some videos on the- Yeah[00:17:04] Alapana Kishore: on the, you know, story. Without a care. And it's going through the murtis, it's going through the ... These are all carved from, you know, uh, 300, 400 سال پہلے. I've written in my story. [00:17:15] manisha: The ghat goes back to 1500 years. [00:17:17] Alapana Kishore: Yes, yes. The ghat is mentioned in texts. And the madis, which are the stone platforms which they demolished, they had carvings all over, you know?[00:17:27] Alapana Kishore: So now you ... Then the, uh, squabbling [00:17:30] starts. The, uh, the most comical thing was that the chief administrator of the city, I think it's the district magistrate or maybe his deputy, who ordered the demolition, next is going and saying namaste in front of the rescued, murti, you know? After the Ahilyabai Trust- Mm[00:17:45] Alapana Kishore: made a huge shindy about it. They came and, you know. So they managed to dig out these two murtis, who had somehow escaped full rubble. [00:17:53] Video : Mm. [00:17:54] Alapana Kishore: The rest, they couldn't find. But those two, they took back with dignity and, you know, they, sort of the [00:18:00] Trust came from Madhya Pradesh. The Holkar Trust came and they t- took them back.[00:18:04] Alapana Kishore: And, uh, the DM is standing and doing namaste to this murti that he ordered demolished the day before. [00:18:10] Abhinandan: Mm. And this is happening at scale- [00:18:12] Alapana Kishore: This is happening- ... in Banaras ... at scale. Well, not at scale in Banaras. Yeah. But this is the, uh, it is happening in the areas which it should not ever happen. These are old heritage zones.[00:18:25] Alapana Kishore: You are, you have a- And there [00:18:26] Abhinandan: are better ways of organizing them. [00:18:28] Alapana Kishore: 100%. [00:18:30] 100%. [00:18:30] Abhinandan: So the interest is not there. So, you know, before I go around the panel, and then we come to Central Vista, and then who really owns land? What are the parameters or criteria that they should be taken over, including the Gymkhana Club?[00:18:43] Abhinandan: Uh, is ... my story from Banaras is, in my 10, 11 years of shooting food and travel shows, you know, where is the most ancient, I won't call it food, but place of eating that I found across this country- Banaras ... [00:19:00] [00:19:00] manisha: in Banaras. Which one is it? [00:19:01] Abhinandan: It's, uh, I made the mistake of calling it a pan shop- ... in front of the gentleman who was sitting there.[00:19:08] Abhinandan: He said, "《زرا کیمرہ کاٹیں گے》。" جناب اپنا اینکر کر رہے ہیں। پان کی دکان نہیں ہے، یہ تھمبول بھنڈار ہے۔ "ہم سگریٹ بیڑی نہیں بیچتے।" "ہمارے سات پرجوں سے، Ahilyabai کا پان ہمارے پردادا کے پردادا کے پردادا بناتے تھے。" [00:19:23] Anita Rampal: Mm. [00:19:23] Abhinandan: So that thambool bhandar, not pan shop, was there from, I think, what he said, 1600, [00:19:30] 1700 or something he told me.[00:19:31] Abhinandan: I said, "It's been here?" He said, "It's been here since then." Thambool [00:19:33] manisha: is what? Like, what does it mean, [00:19:35] Abhinandan: thambool? I, I guess thambool means pan. [00:19:36] manisha: The, the, uh- Tambool, [00:19:37] Shardool: I think. [00:19:37] Abhinandan: What is [00:19:38] Shardool: tambool? The, like, tamba- Tambool is the- [00:19:39] Abhinandan: Sanskrit ... [00:19:40] Shardool: Sanskrit name of pan. Oh. The leaf. [00:19:41] manisha: Yeah. [00:19:41] Abhinandan: Oh, I see. [00:19:42] Shardool: Okay. Tambool patra. [00:19:43] Abhinandan: So, so they don't call it a pan shop.[00:19:44] Abhinandan: And he- And you're talking ... [00:19:45] Shardool: It's near Dashaashwamedh Ghat. پہلے آتا ہے وہ ... [00:19:47] Abhinandan: and he, and he looks down at pan shops that sell gutkha and- [00:19:52] manisha: Ah, [00:19:52] how [00:19:52] Abhinandan: gross ... all that. He says, "We only serve"- [00:19:54] Shardool: Yes [00:19:56] manisha: Paan. Paan. [00:19:58] Abhinandan: So that's it- That's Banaras ... Paan [00:20:00] Banaras wala. [00:20:00] Shardool: Yes. [00:20:01] Abhinandan: But yeah, uh, Manisha, from this story from the entire Central Vista.[00:20:06] Abhinandan: Yeah. By the way, I also want to say that I go for Central Vista and, Alps, what you had predicted. Yes. That they are saying this is all public land, people can go. On particular days, they allow people to go to those lands, uh, lawns, otherwise you cannot go hang around there with your family. [00:20:19] Alapana Kishore: Mm. [00:20:20] Abhinandan: It is taken over.[00:20:20] Alapana Kishore: Yeah, and they've blocked off, uh, you can't go to, you can't cross Rajpath anymore. Yeah. It's totally blocked. It was [00:20:25] Abhinandan: the most beautiful [00:20:25] Alapana Kishore: road. It was the most beautiful crossing, and every- Yeah ... it was free for everybody. Mm. You could go, go [00:20:30] right up to Rashtrapati Bhavan- Mm ... North and South Block. Mm. You could go from the back.[00:20:34] Alapana Kishore: Everything is blocked now. Kamraj Marg is blocked. So, you know, I think all these places are now a zone, which I had said- A no-go zone ... that is going to be a VIP zone. [00:20:41] Abhinandan: Yeah. [00:20:42] Alapana Kishore: So that's what it is. So, [00:20:43] manisha: um, um, you know, the story that, uh, Alpana has done, everyone must read it. It's a three-part series on our website.[00:20:50] manisha: Uh, we decided to do it after the videos from Manikarnika Ghat in January went viral, where there were bulldozers going on, and there was rubble, and people were visibly angry. And I [00:21:00] think for me, I've always been fascinated by how this government is turning ... How it's reshaping public spaces, and what it says about this government.[00:21:10] manisha: Because even historically, if you look at every king, the way to leave your mark is in the monuments, from Guptas to Akbar to Aurangzeb. If you go to, uh, Bibi Ka Maqbara in Aurangabad, that Aurangzeb apparently built to rival Taj Mahal, you can see in that building what a stingy person this is. Yeah. This [00:21:30] is for his wife, but it's, like, this narrow little[00:21:32] manisha: Like, you can see the small-heartedness of the person in that. Come, come- Bibi Ka Maqbara ... see a job you can. So, you know, similarly I think with, since the Modi government has come, what they've done in Banaras, the lights on the ghats, for example. Uh, for me, even the Kashi Vishwanath Temple, which was supposed to be this big thing he's doing for Hindus.[00:21:50] manisha: To me, it's just a very alien structure that's bought there. It's almost like what they did in Ahmedabad with [00:22:00] the riverfront. You know, pink sandstone, no trees, nothing. Spartan, brutalist. And that's been a feature of this government. And I think Modi does see himself as an emperor in that sense, and he wants to reshape India as his[00:22:13] manisha: You know, leave his mark there. And he is trying to do that through buildings, through monuments, through public spaces. So that was our idea with this story. And I found ... One thing I want you to, like, you know, get back on, because your third piece really talks about- How his idea or Hindutva's idea of what [00:22:30] monuments, even temples or your own relationship with God should be like is pretty much the antithesis of what Hinduism is.[00:22:37] manisha: And in fact, when you read the piece, I was telling Alpana that, you know, you just, you're just someone who loves Banaras and I can see it in the piece that, you know, the city really means a lot to you. And she's like, "No, that's the first time I went. It doesn't mean anything to me." But I have, I have traveled in Kashmir and I can see- [00:22:53] Abhinandan: The similarities[00:22:53] manisha: everything that was happening there with Islamism, with Islamist ideology and what Hindutva is doing in the parallels. And I think that is [00:23:00] fascinating, uh, which your third piece really explores, and you should talk a little bit about that because the fact that there should be this one temple and a ticketed line to it versus the chaos of Banaras, you know, your personal relationship with your God, how that's kind of been obstructed.[00:23:17] manisha: And this is not to romanticize dirt and squalor. We're not saying that- You can [00:23:21] Abhinandan: clean the river [00:23:21] manisha: You can clean it up, yeah Which [00:23:22] Abhinandan: is not happening. [00:23:23] manisha: And, um- [00:23:24] Abhinandan: This is hap- the river's not getting cleaned ... [00:23:25] manisha: the smallest of lanes in Europe, for example, you don't bulldoze over them and make a six-lane [00:23:30] highway. You maintain it, but you also clean it up.[00:23:32] manisha: You make it more usable. We are not saying that things should be in decay as it was for sure before 2014. I don't think Banaras was in... I mean, people would romanticize it for different reasons, but there are things that had to improve. Same with Old Delhi, for example. Mm. Beautiful place, but it needs to be kind of spruced up.[00:23:49] manisha: But this is not what the government is doing. It's really kind of flattening out everything that we know about our faith, about Hinduism, our relationship with our own gods. And somebody from Uttarakhand, I feel [00:24:00] that very strongly in Uttarakhand also, what they're doing with Badrinath, Kedarnath. What they're doing with small, uh, spaces that we would go to, like gods that maybe two to three villages would worship.[00:24:09] manisha: A temple that matters to us but maybe not to rest of Uttarakhand. Yeah. How you would kind of bulldoze it because you wanna build this six-lane highway. So to me, that's a very striking feature of this government, and I think this is one of the reasons why we saw the results in Faizabad, you know? Because I think- Mm.[00:24:27] manisha: The election ... one of the things I heard there [00:24:30] consistently was Ram Mandir, great, everyone wanted a temple, but whose temple is it? We're not going there. It's the Gujarati tourist who comes there, spends money, goes back. But w- where is our stake in this Ram temple? [00:24:44] Alapana Kishore: Right. So I, I think, I think, you know, you've talked about a lot of things in, uh, your question which touch upon that one thing, which is, um This, uh, idea of what Hinduism is, [00:25:00] I explore that in my story, which is about the big church, which is this Vaticanization of Hinduism, that there should be a big, powerful church.[00:25:10] Alapana Kishore: Uh, it sh- power should flow from it, uh, and everybody else comes below it. Also, that there should be standard practices. So there's, in this ideology of Hindutva, it's built around organization. So everything has to be standard. Everything has to be put in a [00:25:30] box. Everything has to be hierarchical, uh, or it has to, I mean, a place for everything and everything for a place.[00:25:35] Alapana Kishore: I do say that the RSS is like Marie Kondo, you know? That there's, there's organizational, uh, sense to it that, uh, is, is terrified of Hinduism's, this vast ocean of beliefs. The main difference, I think, between Hindutva and Hinduism is that Hinduism teaches you to seek your own path. [00:25:55] Video : Mm. [00:25:55] Alapana Kishore: Now, that own path could be through the small mandir that you're seeing with your own Devi, [00:26:00] your own Devta, your Mata, whatever it is, in that, in those three villages that you talked about.[00:26:04] manisha: Mm. [00:26:05] Alapana Kishore: Uh, I don't necessarily have to believe in it. Uh, he can believe in Mahadev. You know, he can believe in, uh, you know- Banke Bihari ... Banke Bihari Bhagwan, Banke Bihari. So there is, there are, Hinduism is this vast ocean. You can't organize an ocean So this is the attempt that's happening there. And whenever you organize it, somehow the Hindutva, uh, [00:26:30] mindset says, "It must be barricaded.[00:26:32] Alapana Kishore: You must make a profit. You must have tickets. You must be..." I mean, the most pathetic thing that I saw in Banaras is inside the Kashi- Kashi Vishwanath temple. Okay, you line up, you buy tickets outside, you know, 300 bucks or whatever it is. You buy the tickets, you go inside. Inside you're barricaded. So there's a picture in my story where you see the ground is empty, and there's this snake-like sort of barricade lining up for the darshan at the temple because it's, it's not organic, it's not, [00:27:00] uh, you know?[00:27:00] Alapana Kishore: Mm. And they'll say the numbers. But it was never meant to be a tourist spot. It's a pilgrimage city. [00:27:05] Video : Mm. [00:27:05] Alapana Kishore: You're not meant to have this mass tourism kind of hordes descending upon these, uh, places, but they are designed as such then. Yeah. They have been made huge, massive, flat, clear- [00:27:15] manisha: And then [00:27:15] Alapana Kishore: there's an [00:27:15] manisha: ecological cost, like with Kedarnath.[00:27:17] manisha: It is not meant to accommodate all of India rushing there in the summer- Exactly. Yeah ... and anywhere. It's not- [00:27:21] Abhinandan: Neither is Sikkim as the traffic jams show. Yeah. But I think one thing that demonstrates this whole, the intersection of, um, the ideology of Hindutva [00:27:30] and Modi's personality of I must own everything, and if I like something it belongs to me, is erasure of any evidence of anything else.[00:27:39] Abhinandan: Like, la- um, this week was, uh, Jawaharlal Nehru's, um, uh, uh, death anniversary, right? [00:27:45] manisha: Yeah. [00:27:46] Abhinandan: There was... Like, you cannot pretend he was not the first prime minister. And no matter how much Modi likes or dislike, like for example, future generations can't say 2004 to 2000, you know, 20 that never happened. Or sorry, 2014 to [00:27:59] Alapana Kishore: 2000- [00:27:59] Abhinandan: 14 to[00:27:59] Abhinandan: it [00:28:00] happened. Now, whether we like it or not, he was the prime minister. You cannot remove his photograph There was no mention that... And for his, all his flaws, he was a man way bigger than the dwarfs who are ruling us today. But that whole erase, bulldoze, remove- Mm ... and now only what I'm remembered by. This, even the Central Vista is a reflection of his, you know, ego.[00:28:20] Abhinandan: Uh- Yeah ... and everything flows from there. But, Shardul, since you were a member of the RSS, your [00:28:27] Shardool: Yeah, yeah. So [00:28:27] Abhinandan: I- Member, yeah So this whole thing of- I was thinking about it ... the, you know, [00:28:30] the organized structure being the grid for everything else. [00:28:33] Shardool: So I grew up around this coveting, right? This organization of the Abrahamic faith.[00:28:40] Shardool: I grew up around it, like, like- That's- ... this Abhijat and all. Yeah. So like, literally, like I have photos of being, you know- Mm ... nestled on the 2.3 degrees and knees and all that. So you hear this and planning, give a essay, "Hona chahiye. Hum essay kaise achieve karein?" Which when you grow up, like at least for a person like me, it's like antithetical [00:29:00] to even natural order.[00:29:01] Video : Mm. [00:29:02] Shardool: All of us are different, and we don't need to conform to just excel. We need to conform to basic rules, like basic ethics of journalism are fine. But you, you even grow up so- And, and you learn that at various [00:29:11] Abhinandan: levels from the... What is it? Non-normal, what, what, what's the word? The technical term for the- [00:29:17] Shardool: Neuro- neurodivergent and-[00:29:19] Shardool: neurotypical Divergent. Right, right, right ... neurotypical ... yeah, so I am neurodivergent. So- But that is a term to explain to neurotypical that we are not bad or wrong, we're just different. [00:29:29] Video : [00:29:30] Mm. [00:29:30] Shardool: And you have less context because we are less, 2% part of the population. [00:29:33] Video : Mm. [00:29:34] Shardool: So but it applies to everywhere. If you look at cities, every sort of remodeling, especially this government, but in general our administration does this, like for a hammer, every problem is a nail.[00:29:44] Video : Mm. [00:29:45] Shardool: You flatten it and restart. But every city has its own character. You can like... Not on- this is true not only for India, this is true everywhere. Like you cannot compare San Antonio to Dallas. [00:29:55] Video : Mm. [00:29:55] Shardool: San Antonio is a city of colors. Banaras is a city of complexities [00:30:00] woven generation after generation, and I've spent significant time there because like I dated someone there.[00:30:06] Shardool: Mm. So you start walking from Sane Ghat, Assi Ghat, and you go to Bengali gully, and then for cheap idli you go to Tamil Nadu gully. [00:30:12] Video : Mm. [00:30:13] Shardool: So there were small gullies, and I was surprised like 5 rupee idli, Mm ... but the point is that they survive because of their own reasons, encompassing their own culture. That was the beauty of this city.[00:30:25] Shardool: You- Sort of erase what Banaras is by flattening it [00:30:30] [00:30:30] Abhinandan: Destroy. Destroy, destroy, [00:30:30] Shardool: yeah Like Bana-- Like I'm sure Alpana would have seen there, and you would have seen there, Banaras was a very unique city for me. Every chauraha people are just sitting. Mm. They don't want to do anything, and I remember there used to be a rickshawala near Lan- on Lanka, BHU ke saamne.[00:30:45] Shardool: We used to see it. Usse pucho, "Bhaiya, kahi chalo ke nahi." Woh saare din leta tha, ghat pe jaake apna kha ke aa jaata tha. Usse kahi nahi jana. It's a very unique city, sometimes offending to people who are sort of workaholics and disciplined. For a surprise [00:31:00] sort of, like this is a microcosm within UP. This government has changed so much for creating perceived icons which mirror like Mecca, Medina.[00:31:13] Shardool: There has to be one central faith. [00:31:15] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:31:15] Shardool: But the point of all, like Hinduism itself in like, very gently if I say, is also a misnomer. It's not one ism. [00:31:22] Alapana Kishore: Exactly, [00:31:22] Shardool: yeah. Like I personally- [00:31:24] Abhinandan: You are a Vaishnavite, a Shaivite. You can be tribal and you don't subscribe to any [00:31:28] Shardool: of those- I subscribe to Sankhya [00:31:30] Vedanti, which refutes and denies the existing and need for a god.[00:31:33] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:31:34] Alapana Kishore: Yeah. [00:31:34] Shardool: Yeah. I believe in rational stuff. Mm. I don't need some- Mm ... overarching figure. [00:31:38] Video : Mm. [00:31:39] Shardool: And this is all part of it, but the erasure and homogenized human beings cannot be homogenized, and this will turn into their face because what they are trying to do, the, the internal point of view a- you asked, they are trying to preserve that local microcosms of cultures, of local devta, family devtas.[00:31:57] Shardool: But this overarching theme, and this is [00:32:00] sort of a, you know, oxymoron or competing things which cannot coexist. Either you believe in your own devta or you believe in this overarching diktat. [00:32:09] Video : Mm. [00:32:10] Shardool: You cannot have it both ways. Yeah. So I don't know what's happening. Mm. But the result is we are wiping out things which could have been developed, like Manisha said.[00:32:19] Shardool: You, you develop old Delhi. Mm. You develop Banaras, you develop Ujjain, all these old cities in their own way, and tourism will come. Whoever likes architecture, whoever like, [00:32:30] whoever likes chaos will go to Banaras. Whoever likes order will go to Chandigarh. [00:32:34] Abhinandan: In fact, uh- And also what, what Trump said, you know, before I come to, uh, last pa- part of the f-, uh, your series that you'll be doing, and then we can get into the general takeover of lands everywhere and what are the criteria for that.[00:32:46] Abhinandan: I will say I have said this once before on The Half Taarakh, we got so much hate mail and of course Alpana will, you know, gasp when she hears you say this. I, I don't think there's any great value to preserving [00:33:00] heritage structures unless there is a reason which is, like it will save the environment. Like for example, I'm saying destroy what you want, go for it, but- There should be cleaner air.[00:33:14] Abhinandan: Like you saw the heat map of India, right? [00:33:15] manisha: Mm-hmm. [00:33:16] Abhinandan: At a time like this when we are giving land to data centers, which America's, you know, city council are saying, "We don't want it here because it'll suck up the water." [00:33:23] Shardool: Georgia. [00:33:24] Abhinandan: So, uh, so I would say if they want to do what they want to do in Banaras, we'll have a clean [00:33:30] river, and we'll have forests there.[00:33:32] Abhinandan: Fine, destroy what you want I would say you want to destroy central vista, uh, the, whatever the old Shastriya Bhawan- That is- ... edges of the... I mean, my memories of Delhi is that. [00:33:41] Video : Yeah. [00:33:41] Abhinandan: Go for it, but give me a forest over there. Don't give me uglier structures, no? The point is, what are you doing it for? [00:33:48] Alapana Kishore: I think that's a very important thing, uh, Niku, because, uh, the thing is that, uh, when we are doing all this large scale destruction, uh, and it's called clean slating.[00:33:57] Alapana Kishore: Clean slate. Mm. Yeah. So you just demolish everything, [00:34:00] trees, uh, you know, uh, little hillocks, people, homes, whatever it is. It just, it's, you need a clean slate to start. [00:34:07] manisha: Mm. [00:34:07] Alapana Kishore: You know? Uh, so that itself is an architectural, uh, uh, you know, issue. Because you don't do that anymore. In architecture, you don't do that anymore.[00:34:16] Alapana Kishore: You work with the land, you know? Um, but I think the question of what comes after- Mm. Mm ... is so important. Because as we have seen over and over again, I mean, we can take any example, [00:34:30] Mumbai's mangroves, uh, Orissa's, uh, Sundargarh project, Nicobar. I mean, Niku, you're so interested in clean air and ecology and climate change.[00:34:38] Alapana Kishore: And Nicobar, uh, for that reason, the tribal habitat, et cetera. Uh, I'm interested in heritage, so Banaras, Delhi, whatever. All these places, the citizen has only things taken away from him- Mm ... or her. They only have loss. They don't have any reward for all this terrible destruction and this terrible grief. I mean, it's [00:35:00] grief.[00:35:00] Alapana Kishore: You know, you see something you've grown up with all your life, it's ... You go through this gully, then you enter this, then you enter Vishwanath- Yeah ... then you come here. It's grief. There are people who are crying, you know? Forget about people whose actual homes have been demolished. But even in central vista, you go...[00:35:16] Alapana Kishore: I mean, for people who have been brought up in the city, you've grown up going on a, on a bus. You go through, you cut across Rajpath and you see- Mm ... a straight line, and you see the beauty of the sky around you and the trees. All gone now. I mean, you, it, you, you can... [00:35:30] Now the, the buildings are much higher than the trees.[00:35:32] Alapana Kishore: Yes. Some of- So you see these overarching, dominating- Some of the loveliest trees were [00:35:35] Abhinandan: there. [00:35:35] Alapana Kishore: Yes. Yeah. So, you know, the thing is, that if I'm going to be, as a citizen, barricaded out of my own area, my own space, my land, my soil, then, you know, why am I supporting all the ... Uh, the reasons given are ridiculous.[00:35:51] Alapana Kishore: Development, modernity, vikas. I mean, we talk about it in, in the Banaras story, you know? Vikas. Mm. So what is vikas? And how much can we sacrifice for vikas? [00:36:00] Should we sacrifice our own identity? Should we sacrifice, uh, you know, what we have bro- our own memories, our, uh, culture, our tradition? No. So that is, uh, we, it's very important that you think what's coming next.[00:36:11] Alapana Kishore: Mostly, it is either government, uh, grab, or, um, it is given over to profit So somebody will build a high complex there- Mm ... or a big mining project or, you know- Mm ... whatever. These are the two things. [00:36:24] Abhinandan: Now, uh, you know, extending the Central Vista recently, the Gymkhana Club takeover [00:36:30] was in the news. Abhishek Manu Singhvi is representing them.[00:36:33] Abhinandan: From what I hear, it seems unlikely it's gonna be reversed. About three or four months ago, or maybe two months ago, not even probably a kilometer and a half from Gymkhana Club, we've seen luxury in Delhi, but behind all the lanes on Au- Aurangzeb Road and Prithviraj Road are all the minister's houses.[00:36:51] Abhinandan: There are a lot of bastis. [00:36:52] Video : Hmm. [00:36:53] Abhinandan: Yes. 'Cause all the dhobis, the staff, the malis, they all live there. Whereas they actually be living in those five acre plots. The idea [00:37:00] of those plots was that- Yes ... all your staff lives there. Mm. But now those plots have been taken over. «Are bacche ka office yahan, iska office yahan, tum sab...»[00:37:06] Abhinandan: Now, a lot of those bastis actually are voters. Now, it was in page four or five of the Express, I think. Those bastis have gone for security reasons. Hmm. They have been removed. Now, if they're gonna come and service the homes on Aurangzeb, Prithviraj Road, they'll come from Dwarka. I don't know how, but clearly they're not...[00:37:25] Abhinandan: Gymkhana happened two months after that. [00:37:27] Video : Hmm. [00:37:28] Abhinandan: Of course, there were prime time debates on [00:37:30] Gymkhana, none about that. So while, you know, I'm sure Manisha was saying before this that what is so elite about Gymkhana? The elitism is, or what you said is Ram Rahim and the Adanis, Ambanis. But in the hierarchy of elites also, those bastis being wiped out did not make any- [00:37:45] Alapana Kishore: Hmm[00:37:45] Abhinandan: prime time. Now, I have said on this show earlier about Delhi Golf Club. I did not mention Gymkhana Club, but a lot of people have written to me, "You must be very happy." I was like, "I don't really care." Gymkhana [00:37:56] Alapana Kishore: is like [00:37:57] Abhinandan: I, you know, it's 26 acres. It doesn't... And my point on the [00:38:00] Delhi Golf Club was, it's 220 acres.[00:38:02] Abhinandan: You know how much water it uses daily? Am I wrong? Weekly, monthly. Four million liters a day. Yeah. We're in a city where half the population doesn't get water to drink, and now of course it's hitting Gulmohar Park. My point was, take over Golf Club. You are s- the Gymkhana Club membership is what, 500, 5,600 members total.[00:38:26] Abhinandan: Golf Club is what, 8,000? [00:38:28] Video : Hmm. [00:38:28] Abhinandan: Maybe less. 8,000 people are [00:38:30] consuming four million waters a day. Do the math. That won't be touched. Similarly, Constitution Club, 'cause MPs are members. In fact, our money has gone into Constitution Club. Now, I'm a very proud Dosco. We have one of the most beautiful campuses in the world, and I say the world.[00:38:48] Abhinandan: 69 acres in Dehradun, which has gone to shit all around us. Mm. But if you see the aerial shot of Doon School, it is still beautiful. Everything around looks like turds compared to when I grew up there in the [00:39:00] '70s. We pay 99 rupees a year [00:39:04] Shardool: Still? [00:39:04] Abhinandan: Yes Still. [00:39:06] manisha: Will lease, huh? [00:39:07] Abhinandan: No, no, sorry, ₹2 a year for 99 years.[00:39:09] manisha: Mm. [00:39:09] Abhinandan: ₹2. [00:39:11] manisha: ₹2 for nine, yeah. [00:39:11] Shardool: ₹2 people. [00:39:13] Abhinandan: Yeah, ₹2 people. As KRK would say. Now, now I'm not saying any of this should be taken or all of it should be take over. Mm. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying what is the criteria? If the criteria is public good- Mm ... I would first take over some place that is using four million water, [00:39:30] liters of water.[00:39:31] Abhinandan: How much is golf club using? Uh, uh, Gymkhana using? Probably one-hundredth of that? So, I mean, I'm just saying do the logic. Do the ma- how many people is it serving? You could say, you know, doing school is serving education. Look, [00:39:43] Alapana Kishore: I think, I think there's a s- there's a bit of complexity I want to inject into this either or kind of- Mm[00:39:48] Alapana Kishore: argument. One of the things that I look at, uh, when you see life in a modern city, art galleries, uh, shops, malls- [00:40:00] Mm ... uh, residences, fancy, non-fancy. [00:40:02] Video : Mm. [00:40:03] Alapana Kishore: Uh, you know, uh, roads that are, um, you know, broad avenues and roads that are small gullies. It's ... A city is a complex layer of things. [00:40:13] Video : Mm. [00:40:14] Alapana Kishore: Sporting activity, do you want it in a city or you don't want it in a city?[00:40:17] Alapana Kishore: Do you want to ha- cut out golf? Then please cut it. It's not just the golf club, it's the, uh, every golf club in the country- Yeah ... and in the world. So, either you say that, "Okay, as a, as a- No golf ... as a country, we are not playing golf." Okay, fine. Then [00:40:30] that's the, that's the end of that debate. But if you are, uh, if you are living in a modern-day city, Delhi, uh, Mumbai, you know, Kolkata, whatever, Chennai, Bangalore, wherever, and upcoming cities, Pune, uh, Pune and, uh, uh- Vizag, Hyderabad[00:40:45] Alapana Kishore: you know, Vizag, Hyderabad, wherever. All these places will aspire to certain things that make up modern cities all over the world, and you are bringing in a class, in fact the whole, whole thrust of modernization and liberalization is to [00:41:00] bring up people from a, a class where maybe their main, main, uh, um, sort of, uh, occupations or, you know, things are to deal with the land and, uh, agriculture and so on, to something where they're professionals or they're studying, they're educating themselves and they're[00:41:15] Alapana Kishore: As they do, they travel, they modernize, and they want all these things. So why do you have malls? Why do you have golf course? I mean, I, I think this is a reductive argument. It doesn't lead anywhere. I think you have to understand that there's a mix of everything, and you have to keep a [00:41:30] balance. [00:41:30] teachers byte: Mm. [00:41:30] Alapana Kishore: Now, that's a thoughtful balance that somebody has to think about.[00:41:33] Alapana Kishore: Planners have to think about. Mm. That's their job. The problem here is that planners are not allowed to do their jobs. Mm. So, there is a thrusting ideology and a, a, a, you know, a, a, an insistence, a determination to bypass expertise that says, "I'm not listening to experts on this, and I will do what I want to do," which is resulting in all these imbalanced kind of activities all over, this land grab all over the country.[00:42:00] [00:42:00] Abhinandan: Also, the argument which was a more fundamental argument, like mine is always environment related, was of a friend of mine who is a member of ... He says that he doesn't live here. His parents do, and his dad's a retired Army officer. Mm. And that is where he goes every evening, and he says, "Now, where the hell did my dad go?"[00:42:17] Abhinandan: So I'll have to come back and take care[00:42:21] manisha: Where are they, uh, w-where have they said that Gymkhana can start its own? Some back of the beyond- Dwarka ... achha, [00:42:27] Abhinandan: Dwarka. Like, everyone is sent to Dwarka, like, you [00:42:30] know? Two acres. Two acres in Dwarka. So, so, so all these, all the bastis that have been displaced, they can then get, uh, find employment in the new golf.[00:42:34] Abhinandan: Uh, but no, but he says, look, I was talking to him about pros. He says, "It's simple. If you don't have right to property, all your liberalization, your fundamental, fundamental right starts from property." And he says, "Whatever you may say-" Hmm ... "about the US and the West, that is central to your rights." [00:42:51] Alapana Kishore: It is sacrosanct, [00:42:52] Abhinandan: yeah.[00:42:52] Abhinandan: If you do not have right to property- [00:42:54] Alapana Kishore: Hmm ... [00:42:54] Abhinandan: then you don't have right to any of your movement, your voting that you're whining about SIR, et cetera. [00:43:00] He says, "That is the fundamental basis on which this has to be defended." [00:43:03] Alapana Kishore: Yeah. [00:43:04] Abhinandan: And if you say there is no right to property, then tomorrow when another government comes, all the presidents and governors who are the suck-ups of some government or the other who have been given land- [00:43:15] manisha: Yeah, [00:43:15] Abhinandan: take your house What stops that?[00:43:19] Abhinandan: When you lose right to property, you can just uproot anyone anytime, and that is the fundamental foundation on which he says this should be the, the, that should be the fulcrum of this debate. [00:43:30] And he says, unfortunately it's not, because in our country we don't talk about these fund... We, we talk about, you know, I think [00:43:40] Alapana Kishore: also, uh, you have to take into account, uh, Manisha, I think this refers to something that you were, uh, talking about, this whole elitist argument that has come up.[00:43:50] Alapana Kishore: Mm. Can you just, can we just look at when Gymkhana Club started? It started in 1913 when there was a jungle. Mm. Mm. It was the only, probably the only, uh, [00:44:00] piece of land where at that, at the point in time, uh, the British officers came, where they actually had, uh, uh, you know, sort of, uh, paved, uh, something below their feet.[00:44:10] Alapana Kishore: Uh, and the, the land that they're talking about, those 27 acres, well, there are 26 grass courts, which are the finest in the world after Wimbledon. I mean, you know, they are amazing grass courts. Again, it's all about that sporting life we are talking about. [00:44:23] Principal: Mm. [00:44:23] Alapana Kishore: Clubs, sporting life, recreation, leisure- Mm[00:44:26] Alapana Kishore: community. You're telling, you're talking about your friend whose father goes there [00:44:30] every day. They are... I mean, that is the bulk of the Gymkhana Club's population. Faujis. Mm. Not just faujis- So what's the, just to button- ... but people who come every day ... [00:44:37] manisha: who are, like, what's the history of the membership? So any army officer who would have been posted [00:44:41] Alapana Kishore: here can- It's 40, 40, 20.[00:44:42] manisha: Huh. [00:44:42] Alapana Kishore: So 40% bureaucrats, IAS services, IRS- Okay ... whatever. 40%, uh, fauji. [00:44:48] manisha: Huh. [00:44:49] Alapana Kishore: All, again, all three s- all three services. Uh- And [00:44:51] manisha: 20 is [00:44:51] Alapana Kishore: anyone? And 20 is a list, which is why your waiting list is 30 years long. Okay. Because you only get those 20 who can, uh, enter [00:45:00] after application. [00:45:00] Abhinandan: Although now it's 40. It's long...[00:45:02] Abhinandan: Even my dad retired- [00:45:02] Alapana Kishore: And yes, uh, uh, if you applied in the '50s, like, in fact, that's a point that I would love to make, that when Partition happened, a whole bunch of Partition refugees came to Delhi and had no money- [00:45:15] Abhinandan: Mm ... [00:45:15] Alapana Kishore: no house. They were living wherever they could and whatever they could. And, uh, certainly many of them who applied at that time for membership got it immediately.[00:45:23] Alapana Kishore: Mm. It was an empty city. All the Muslims who lived in Delhi had gone, so they were the, uh... So, and also New Delhi was a new city. As [00:45:30] did in- There wasn't anything beyond Prithviraj Road. [00:45:32] Abhinandan: Yeah. [00:45:33] Alapana Kishore: So, uh, Gymkhana Club was actually at the edge of the city as it existed then. [00:45:37] Abhinandan: No, [00:45:38] Alapana Kishore: but- Today it has come, become the center.[00:45:39] Alapana Kishore: Center. But when it, in the '50s, right up to the '50s and '60s, there was literally a forest after Gymkhana Club. [00:45:45] Abhinandan: And also the long waiting list is a very 2000s phenomena. Mm. Uh, '90s, 2000s, 'cause when my dad retired in the, in the... Not retired, but before he retired, in the '70s and '80s, this is just before his retirement, uh, all his [00:46:00] course mates, you know, took membership.[00:46:01] Abhinandan: You, you could get it, like, in a month or two. It was that easy. Mm. The whole- List became a post '90s thing. It w- you know, back it was very- So this [00:46:09] manisha: whole that it's a Lutyens elite thing is kind of bullshit. [00:46:11] Abhinandan: Well, I know it is in a sense, I'll tell you. I mean, on an economic pyramid- [00:46:16] manisha: Hmm ... [00:46:16] Abhinandan: if you see- So ... taking, you know, which is what the whole irony of what we call middle class in India.[00:46:22] Abhinandan: It is true, and it is not true. It is true when you see the struggles of I'm a [00:46:30] schoolteacher and army officer's son. I always consider myself middle class growing up. But when you see the data of the country, then I'm not. I'm the top 5%. Yeah. So it really depends on, uh, you know, the, it's such a fragmented living in our country.[00:46:44] Shardool: Optics of exclusionary thing, uh, is also, I think, elitist. But may I try to at least recontextualize a bit? Yeah. I'm surprised that you and I have a- aligned views- [00:46:52] Abhinandan: Oh, really? ... [00:46:53] Shardool: on this. [00:46:53] Abhinandan: That's a rare one. [00:46:54] Shardool: Yes, yes, it's a rare one. But, you know, a lot of, like, human beings in general are [00:47:00] very seduced by nostalgia, and the problem is we fell behind too much in our human development and poverty and all that, and now the problems have changed, and problems are much more macro.[00:47:11] Shardool: Climate change, and if you really wanna recontextualize, re- draw the city, like you said, do it, but do it in the right way for right reasons. Any sane administration, and people have started doing this all over the world, it's happening in Germany, which I know of. I read it on, read it on DW a couple of months ago.[00:47:29] Shardool: The [00:47:30] verticalization of greenery is being in- included in architecture. [00:47:34] Song: Hmm. [00:47:34] Shardool: Uh, the localization of water and reprocessing. We're talking about Banaras. The first sewage processing plant, one of the first, was planned and sort of "" by Rajiv Gandhi administration in, when I was born, I think '83, '82. It's still not finished.[00:47:50] Alapana Kishore: Yes. Like, [00:47:51] Shardool: Now if you talk [00:47:55] Alapana Kishore: about that Ganga, uh, cleaning- Hmm ... oh, it's been going on forever, and [00:47:59] Shardool: [00:48:00] nothing is happening. And, and like I'm sure Alpna will know because she spent time in Banaras. The main problem is Kanpur. Ah.[00:48:08] Shardool: But you don't address this. The other thing, the principle you were talking about, which comes from mi casa es su casa, my home is my castle, which is everywhere. But that also gives equity, which taken away in Banaras. My 15 generations have lived there, and you kick me out. Don't you think that will build resentment?[00:48:30] [00:48:30] Shardool: This is an unsustainable architecture, and you are not only doing it just for your own sort of hubris or misguided sense of goodness or loyalty. You are destroying long-term lives, and, like, this is a country, when you're talking about water, we have 18% of the world population today and only 4% of the drinking water.[00:48:48] Shardool: Some of [00:48:48] Abhinandan: the water, yeah. [00:48:49] Shardool: That's all. And we are setting up data centers. [00:48:50] Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:48:51] Shardool: All is this just absolute apathetical and harebrained governance, which, you know, you drive, drives you up the wall, but what do you do? [00:49:00] [00:49:00] Abhinandan: And I think this is because it is driven not by logic or study or scholarship. It is driven by the ego of a man.[00:49:06] Abhinandan: I think that is central to it. [00:49:07] manisha: Yeah, yeah. Hmm. [00:49:08] Abhinandan: Manisha, your views on this? On this [00:49:09] manisha: whole elitist thing, actually, I was just thinking that- I mean, uh, what you said that is it elite, is it not? I mean, to some people... I love going to Lodhi Garden every morning. Now to some people it can be a very elitist garden.[00:49:20] manisha: Only like people in Central Delhi go there. All the Supreme Court judges, lawyers are walking there. Politicians are walking there. So Lodhi Garden at some level, the morning [00:49:30] walkers of Lodhi Garden can be the most elite, you know, people. But would I want that to be taken away from the government? That's a very pop-pop [00:49:39] Abhinandan: kind of thing.[00:49:40] manisha: It's very pop-pop. [00:49:41] Alapana Kishore: Yeah, it's [00:49:41] manisha: very Khmer Rouge. [00:49:42] Alapana Kishore: Which is that? The whole thing is Khmer Rouge. [00:49:43] manisha: And again, [00:49:44] Alapana Kishore: like- The whole property thing is Khmer Rouge, you know. Anti-intellectual and anti-property. [00:49:47] manisha: Yeah. So I, so one thing is I think, yeah, this elite thing has to be, to me I've never looked at Gymkhana as elite.[00:49:53] manisha: It's in the context, yes. But to me Golf Club would be way more like, I don't understand why anchors are going at Gymkhana as if it's the biggest [00:50:00] assault on elitism in India. [00:50:01] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:50:02] manisha: Like I don't know why. Why is Gymkhana the [00:50:04] Abhinandan: symbol of- I think anchors because, uh, it's rage bait, what my- Yeah ... Alpana was saying that the- [00:50:08] manisha: And maybe they are not members of that, they are members of Golf Club.[00:50:11] manisha: So they are like, "Okay, Golf Club «Bajya» Gymkhana." [00:50:13] Abhinandan: No, I don't think they have that identity. Coming after it. I don't think they have. [00:50:16] manisha: No? [00:50:17] Abhinandan: It is a... Dude, they take their scripts from higher up. They- [00:50:20] Shardool: Okay. Yeah, yeah. [00:50:21] Abhinandan: As they say in Hindi movies "...". They drone. To tell us what they think. Yeah. "..." They could be members of their home, but if the [00:50:30] order says, "Say, uh, my home must be demolished," they will say, "My home must be demolished."[00:50:33] Abhinandan: Uh, but- [00:50:34] manisha: The second thing is what comes next is actually very important. Yeah. That even if Gymkhana is taken- What if that is it? You have [00:50:39] Abhinandan: to give a clear [00:50:39] manisha: reason. Yeah, yeah. [00:50:40] Abhinandan: If that is vague. Yeah. For me, that is key. [00:50:42] manisha: That's key. Because if you're taking Gymkhana away from its members, and it's been around for 100 years, is this gonna be now the next Adani housing project?[00:50:51] manisha: Yeah, very possible. Like, do I wanna give away- [00:50:52] Abhinandan: Very [00:50:52] Alapana Kishore: possible. [00:50:53] manisha: Very [00:50:54] Abhinandan: possible. I'd put my money on it. Or- Taking bets now. [00:50:57] manisha: And, and, and how gated will that be? Who's gonna [00:51:00] afford a 400 crore apartment there in like... So we should also have that in mind that when Gurgaon land was taken away. What is Magnolia?[00:51:08] manisha: Dude, it's like unaffordable housing. Maybe it's better to have a club there where at least like retired army officers can go play bridge or whatever little thing they can do. [00:51:16] Shardool: Can I trigger more people for a change? Like if you wanna talk about change Scientifically proven fact of horticulture, grass requires more water and produces less oxygen.[00:51:28] Shardool: The other thing, if you wanna make [00:51:30] a change, like from 1913 situation has changed. You cannot have the same standards no matter how much big nostalgia is. Mm-hmm. You have to actually remove Formula 1, MotoGP, all these fuel-guzzling exercises and hobbies. Yeah. It's done, yaar. The world has changed. [00:51:45] Abhinandan: But again, it has to be thought through the macro level.[00:51:48] Abhinandan: We will give, uh, Alpana the last word on this and anything else that she wants to talk about. But before that, I would just like to tell friends of mine who 10, 15 years used to tell me that because I was left of center, "Tu toh Khmer Rouge Pol Pot type hai." [00:52:00] Maine kaha beta maine unhe toh main bola tha the closest we have to Pol Pot Khmer Rouge in India would be Modi.[00:52:06] Alapana Kishore: Modi. [00:52:07] Abhinandan: And likh ke le lo how true this will be. The disdain for education, the disdain for scholarship, the disdain for any intellectual pursuit by a bunch of ill, ignorant, illiterate, uneducated boors has been so transparently demonstrated in what was discussed on prime time the day [00:52:30] CBSE, NEET- Mm ... all education-related issues are blowing up They were discussing Gymkhana Club must be shut down.[00:52:38] manisha: Yeah. [00:52:39] Abhinandan: That tells you the priorities of this country. [00:52:41] manisha: One quick thing I wanna add before you come in, like, this thing of Pol Pot. This is what's happening. We are getting that Southeast Asian dictatorship with, like, South Asian standards of living. So dictatorship, even if there's dictatorship, I'll take your land, I'll ch- Where is our forest?[00:52:55] manisha: Like you were saying, Delhi Golf Club , Central Park . [00:53:00] Give us something, yeah. Give us something. But you're not giving us anything. There's garbage, there's dirty water, there's shit air, and you're also taking whatever little islands of like - [00:53:07] Abhinandan: Well, Modi Ji ... peace [00:53:08] manisha: you had ... [00:53:08] Abhinandan: Modi Ji , then he'll have that photo shoot with mores dancing, five books piled up and holding one.[00:53:15] Abhinandan: I just want to- ... anyone who gets a chance to interview Modi Ji, I will send you the photographs. He did a photo shoot with five books. One of them I think Obama book. Please ask him, "Sir, tell us something about that book you read." Please. But Alpana, yeah, tell us. Book ka naam bata de. [00:53:30] Uh. [00:53:31] Alapana Kishore: Look, I don't know what g- great, uh, final ending thing I'm going to say but- Uh, uh, I just, uh, out of see, after seeing, after doing the stories on Central Vista, I write a lot on large stake urban, uh, infrastructure and projects, and how they completely disregard community, social, uh, you know, uh, networks, uh, cultural tradition, uh, memory, [00:54:00] nostalgia.[00:54:00] Alapana Kishore: I mean, you know, you're saying that nostalgia doesn't have a place, but of course it does. How do we have continuity over generations? You know, we need to, uh, we need to understand who we were before we go on ahead, and this disdain for history. You talked about edu- disdain for education, and I mean, disdain for...[00:54:17] Alapana Kishore: You just wipe out, like you were saying, wipe out one section , Nehru , you know. Hmm. So we are leapfrogging like these crazy cultural fools. We don't know where... Like, the next generation, they are gonna be completely, [00:54:30] uh, unwired and have no idea who they are, where they come from. Like China, if you meet a lot of modern-day Chinese, they have no sense of a continuous past.[00:54:41] Alapana Kishore: They have no understanding where they came from, and in a religion, say, as old as Hinduism, um, as opposed to Hindutva, which is very recent, uh- The continuity is the key thing. You know, you understand where you came from, why you are what you are, or why your culture tradit- uh, traditions are as they are, [00:55:00] and you pass it on to the next generation, and hopefully modernize it a bit and change it a little bit as tradition should change.[00:55:06] Alapana Kishore: But you can't erase it or wipe it out. And I think the project to do that over here is so overwhelming now. It's so, um, uh, huge and disruptive that it's really becoming... I feel ideology is reaching a radical kind of... It's entering radical waters. Yeah, I agree [00:55:24] Abhinandan: with you. [00:55:24] Alapana Kishore: I didn't introduce you. And I think that is the, o- the...[00:55:27] Alapana Kishore: You know, we are a, a reasonably stable [00:55:30] democracy and have been since 1947, which our neighbors have not. [00:55:33] manisha: Mm. [00:55:33] Alapana Kishore: The reason we are like that is because we have kept a low key. We have kept s- a sort of balance. We have managed our massively d- divergent, uh, uh, diverse and divergent country, uh, you know, uh, in, in many ways doing, making compromises, sacrifices- Mm[00:55:49] Alapana Kishore: you know, little bit here, a little bit there. Now, we are going full tilt in an ideological direction that is really actually entering radical waters, and that is scary. [00:55:58] Abhinandan: Mm. And [00:56:00] recommendations for the week for our listeners before we move on to the NEET discussion. We have a tradition here- [00:56:06] Alapana Kishore: Oh, gosh, [00:56:07] Abhinandan: don't put me on the spot [00:56:07] Alapana Kishore: again[00:56:08] of [00:56:08] Abhinandan: giving a- Please start. But that's okay. Take a... We will give our recommendation at the end, but I will do a recommendation, although I have my main recommendation, which I'll give you at the end of the podcast, on this whole sports and takeover. In Express we did a story on, uh, money which was meant for sports and the government was taken over to build swimming pools for bureaucrats in new Motibag Club.[00:56:27] Abhinandan: Oh, I hate bureaucrats, man. And there was no discussion. Did you s- did you see [00:56:30] that? You saw that, right? So that is the, the sporting- Yeah ... culture was ... [00:56:35] Alapana Kishore: Yeah. [00:56:36] Abhinandan: And, uh, as [00:56:37] Shardool: you s- Sporting Grom sport mein nikal do athleticism bhi. Yeh paani mein kudte hain. [00:56:39] Abhinandan: So, yeah, but anything. So give us a recommendation on a story back in the day, Mad- uh, Madhu bol raha tha.[00:56:44] Abhinandan: Yeah. Alpana. Yeah. Anything, anything that you think people should revisit, and maybe they'll get an idea of what it could be. [00:56:51] Alapana Kishore: I mean, I, I think, I think definitely this whole, uh, now that you've taken me back to those times, this whole track of seeing [00:57:00] our conflicts, because I've written immensely about conflicts.[00:57:03] Alapana Kishore: That's been my whole career. I've written about the conflict in Kashmir and Pakistan. Mm. And I focus on ideology and identity. Uh, uh, I think you have to go back to put these new unwired, like I was talking about, the non-history person making films like Dhundhar or, uh, writing about Kashmir as if nothing ever happened.[00:57:26] Alapana Kishore: Mm. You know, that, uh, oh, we never discussed the Kashmiri Pandits. Have you [00:57:30] gone back and looked at the newspapers? Mm. Did you see what existed then? [00:57:33] Abhinandan: Mm. [00:57:33] Alapana Kishore: Can you see the stories and what, what we covered then, you know? Because those stories had a, uh, they covered every aspect of it. And [00:57:41] Abhinandan: the risks that were taken [00:57:43] Alapana Kishore: for those stories.[00:57:43] Alapana Kishore: Yeah. The, the risks, of course, yes. Yes, the risks we took, but why? We took it so that I could interview a militant, a, a terrorist in today's terms. In those days, we called them militants because they had a militant ideology, you know, that was further up the scale than just a normal arguing point. Today, they are just black and [00:58:00] white.[00:58:00] Alapana Kishore: They're terrorists. Why they want to be or why they picked up the gun, nobody's interested. Mm. But in those days, we were interested. We wa- I wanted to... I went to Kashmir because I wanted to find out why. Why are these people running around with guns, and why are they, why do they hate us, and what's wrong with India?[00:58:13] Alapana Kishore: And, you know, why are they, you know? So that is my primary motivation, was curiosity. Mm. Okay, who the hell are these guys? And why did I interview a terrorist, and why did Madhu, my boss, carry this interview? Just to understand who are these people? And Maskul was the first, actually, when you said first, one of [00:58:30] the first was that nobody had interviewed a Pakistani terrorist on Indian soil.[00:58:34] Video : Mm. [00:58:35] Alapana Kishore: That is the actual interview that I did along with all my colleagues. You know, Bharat Kam, Rehan, everybody- Yeah ... all of us then. We interview ... We f- I found this guy who was a Pakistani, who was talking in India and fighting in India. [00:58:48] Video : Mm. [00:58:48] Alapana Kishore: And supposedly at that time, Pakistan said, "No, we don't send anybody."[00:58:52] Alapana Kishore: Here's this Pakistani. He's giving me his address in, in Peshawar. His brother was a ... ran a bookstore on, you know, ridiculous details like that. Mm. [00:59:00] So everything he's ... I mean, he's an authentic Pakistani on Indian soil, and he's got a gun, and he's fighting the Indian army. [00:59:05] manisha: Mm. [00:59:06] Alapana Kishore: So that, that was a first. But why did we carry it?[00:59:09] Alapana Kishore: To show that he has a point of view, and this is what he's saying, and so we can develop our policy further from it, which it was. [00:59:16] Mm. [00:59:17] Alapana Kishore: Policy was, you know, then- And [00:59:18] Abhinandan: also keep the- The narrative ... janta informed- Exactly ... so that they can see this is- This is what- ... this is what- Yeah ... this is the people who are fighting for them.[00:59:24] Alapana Kishore: Yes, [00:59:24] Abhinandan: exactly. So that as well. Yeah. So, okay. 'Cause then you just brush it under the carpet, it doesn't work. [00:59:28] Alapana Kishore: Yeah, and then the films like [00:59:30] Durandal, you only have this one-sided narrative. You know? There's nothing else to it. Mm. But you have to go back and figure out. That's what history is all about. We are expecting [00:59:36] Abhinandan: too much [00:59:36] Alapana Kishore: too.[00:59:37] Alapana Kishore: Yeah. [00:59:37] Abhinandan: We are talking [00:59:37] Alapana Kishore: about- I'm just talking about history. Go back and read history. That's all. Yeah. You know? Not the history that this government is giving you- ... but actual [00:59:44] Abhinandan: history. Actual history. So, uh, thanks, Alpana, for joining [00:59:47] Alapana Kishore: us. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for having me, and, uh- Thank-[00:59:50] Alapana Kishore: thanks for being a co-, uh, parrot. [00:59:55] Shardool: Oh, you're not a parrot. But thank [00:59:57] you. [01:00:00] [01:00:00] Abhinandan: Before we move on to the next subject and introduce the next guest, I would like to remind you, please pay to keep news free. We can still do journalism the way it should be done. We have people like Kalpana, we have lots of journalists who are still here.[01:00:14] Abhinandan: But in case you're wondering, someone who was such a big name in journalism in '90s, you don't know her well, you know who is Gullu and Sudhir and all, 'cause people like this aren't interested in doing journalism anymore. Uh, once in a while they'll do some stories for News Laundry, otherwise there are many people like her, but they're just [01:00:30] not in the game anymore.[01:00:31] Abhinandan: And let's bring them back in the game. We can do that. Here's a QR code, the link. Share to the friend, encourage them, tell them we have fantastic journalists. Not everybody is Gullu. So before we move on to the next discussion, just wanna plug two pieces on News Laundry this week. One is Manisha's interview with the founder of the Cockroach Janata Party, Abhijeet Dipke.[01:00:57] Abhinandan: Uh, do check out the interview. It's about, I think, [01:01:00] 64 minutes. How long is it? [01:01:01] manisha: About an hour, yeah. Little over an hour. [01:01:03] Abhinandan: And, uh, yeah, very interesting. Do check it out. And TM Krishna's piece, If Tagore Were Alive Today, he'd be called Anti-National. [01:01:11] manisha: Yes. [01:01:11] Abhinandan: TM Krishna always has really informed, interesting takes, so I'd recommend that.[01:01:17] Abhinandan: With that, uh, I'd like to re- With that, I'd like to welcome our next guest, Anita Rampal. Hello, ma'am. Thank you for joining us. [01:01:26] Anita Rampal: Very, very nice to be here with you. [01:01:27] Abhinandan: All right. Uh- [01:01:30] Anita Rampal is an educationist and former dean of the Faculty of Education at the University of Delhi. She's known for her work on school education, literacy, curriculum development, and education policy.[01:01:41] Abhinandan: She's been associated with several national education initiatives, including the National Curriculum Framework, and has written extensively on equity, language, and access in education. So thank you for making the time. DU, I have some of my most fond memories from my life are in DU. I was in [01:02:00] Hansraj back in the '90s, early '90s, '92 to '95.[01:02:04] Abhinandan: But, uh, recently we saw two significant, uh, you know, mess-ups on the education front. One was the ... This is the third leak in the last 10 years, right, of the NEET paper? [01:02:17] manisha: Uh, yeah. [01:02:18] Abhinandan: Third, I think- Yeah, yeah ... if I'm not wrong. [01:02:20] manisha: Yeah, yeah. [01:02:21] Abhinandan: Uh, and the mess-up of I- the CBSE scores. CBSE [01:02:25] manisha: scores. [01:02:25] Abhinandan: Which, uh, the organization, I'm sure Manish and Shardul are a little better informed [01:02:30] about this.[01:02:30] Abhinandan: They'll tell us in the course of discussion. But ma'am, you have been observing, um, what occurred. Is it a systemic problem? Is it a problem that any exam at any level in India, paper will always get leaked because eventually there are people involved at some level or the other, and there doesn't seem to be fear of, of consequences?[01:02:54] Abhinandan: What would you as a, you know, policy level have your diagnosis before we get [01:03:00] into the specifics of this leak and the mess-ups in marking? [01:03:02] manisha: In [01:03:05] Anita Rampal: CBSE. In CBSE. There are always chances of systemic problems, but I think right now it's the way these decisions are being taken The way, I mean, for instance, NTA, it's a setup which just shouldn't be there.[01:03:17] Anita Rampal: It's really causing more problems than it creates and helping us. Um- Could you, could you ex- ex- [01:03:22] Abhinandan: explain [01:03:22] Anita Rampal: that a little [01:03:22] Abhinandan: for our audience please, the NTA? [01:03:24] Anita Rampal: Yeah. The National Testing Agency, which has been set up a few years back, [01:03:30] uh, in fact, uh, uh, m- to centralize all assessments, and many of these were done by CBSE earlier.[01:03:38] Anita Rampal: You know, some of these were done by CBSE. So I know that part of it because I happened to be on the governing body of CBSE when, because ex officio as the Dean of the Faculty of Education, I was on, uh, CBSE. So I know that when these large tests were coming up, and, uh, CBSE was thought to be one, uh, a resourceful, uh, you [01:04:00] know, a body institution, a statutory body, uh, within the public domain, and that it should be doing that.[01:04:07] Anita Rampal: But, uh, there was a time when there were questions asked also that, you know, you- our focus should be on secondary education. Why are you getting into so many re- tests, even though they were well-placed because they had contacts and reliable contacts to hold the examination centers in schools, in, uh, uh, uh, government buildings and things like that.[01:04:27] Anita Rampal: But I'm just saying that what was [01:04:30] immediately noticed was that they were earning a lot of revenue. Large amount of revenue was being earned. [01:04:37] Video : Mm. [01:04:38] Anita Rampal: And so now when a national testing agency came up, even though it was recommended by the policy, many of us acade- academicians had opposed the idea. We don't think centralized assessment or what is called standardized assessment actually, uh, and large assessments actually help- Uh, uh, you know, even, uh, identify, [01:05:00] uh, the right people, the right students, or identify children who have that understanding what you think you need for a particular course or a particular program.[01:05:09] Anita Rampal: And, uh, so, you know, we resisted. And it goes against the federal structure of our country. So you take away the autonomy, you take away the role of what state boards have, where students are studying. They studied all their lives in the school, and then suddenly you're calling them for, uh, admission into Delhi [01:05:30] University.[01:05:30] Video : Hmm. [01:05:30] Anita Rampal: Just not done. So we said when this was coming in that this is going to take away our diversity. In fact, when I was teaching in Delhi University and I used to take... Very consciously over more than 20 years I was teaching the Hindi medium section, and there are reasons for that. Because, uh, you know, uh, students came from all across the Hindi belt, I mean, all across Hindi medium, uh, speak- Hindi states, and often in a Delhi University context, Hindi medium can [01:06:00] look as if it's, it's not as, as good as the English medium.[01:06:04] Anita Rampal: So you don't have the resources, you don't have the readings and things like that. But I'm just saying that the kind of students who came in because of this diversity, and in any way in Delhi University, students from various states, I've met those students in school in Kerala who say, "We want to come into Hindu College."[01:06:22] Anita Rampal: You know? Hmm. They aspire for Delhi University. [01:06:24] Video : Yeah. [01:06:25] Anita Rampal: I mean, they're studying in a school, but they're aspiring, uh, for Delhi University. They will [01:06:30] not come, and that's what happened. Uh, because initially, uh, NTA said, "We are using CBSE curriculum." CBSE is a very small board. [01:06:39] Video : Hmm. [01:06:40] Anita Rampal: Yeah. It's just 30,000 schools.[01:06:41] Anita Rampal: Yeah. I mean, there are... Our state boards are much larger than CBSE. [01:06:46] Abhinandan: So why would they- So you're saying the rest would not even be able to apply to DU? [01:06:50] Anita Rampal: No, they would apply. [01:06:52] Abhinandan: But they would, [01:06:52] Anita Rampal: they've- But the kinds of que- the kinds of questions you ask- Mm ... and in a centralized exam, that's very [01:07:00] critical. [01:07:00] Abhinandan: Right.[01:07:00] Anita Rampal: So b- What is it that you asked? [01:07:02] Abhinandan: I see. So [01:07:02] Anita Rampal: though- You can even- [01:07:03] Abhinandan: It's optimized for the CBSE and not optimized for the larger kind of [01:07:08] Anita Rampal: system. Because you're looking at that curriculum- Sure ... that syllabus. [01:07:11] Abhinandan: Right. I see. So, uh, okay, we'll just get back to the specifics. Shardul, you understand technology better than me.[01:07:20] Abhinandan: There are two issues with what happened with the CBSE. One is that- uh, kids' papers, when they send the re-examination paper that was sent to them was not their paper. Yes. Someone else's. There [01:07:30] was a mix-up. And there was a problem in the portal where one ethical hacker said, "I can get into your website, and I have access to the, whatever access codes, et cetera.[01:07:38] Abhinandan: I can mess up things." And he pointed out to them three months ago, they'd ignored him, and now they're denying it ever happened. And of course, other people who understand technology has put screenshots that this is what your back end looks like. I have access to this, I have access to your passwords, et cetera.[01:07:52] Abhinandan: Can you explain- This is the most [01:07:53] Anita Rampal: heartening thing. [01:07:54] Abhinandan: Yeah. This [01:07:54] Anita Rampal: is the most heartening thing that happened in all this. [01:07:58] Abhinandan: So, I, I mean, um, do you [01:08:00] not understand technology enough- No, no ... to say what was he saying? What was the claim? [01:08:03] Shardool: So what he was saying, [01:08:03] Abhinandan: like- Explain it to uncles like me. [01:08:06] Shardool: Yes, yes. Mm. So in a simple way, and like the good understanding is that everybody should be able to do it.[01:08:12] Shardool: When you open your browser, [01:08:13] like- [01:08:13] Abhinandan: Mm ... [01:08:13] Shardool: I think Chrome doesn't do it, but Fire- Firefox and most major, especially open source will do it. They'll give you an option. You can see the JavaScript code running at the background. Okay. He said that the passwords and everything were visible. I can just copy paste it.[01:08:26] Abhinandan: The co- And with that he can mess up marks, he can do- [01:08:29] Shardool: Yeah ... he can mess your website ... he could [01:08:30] enter the system. Then- Okay ... what you do with it? But- But he could enter it ... the entry point, it was very obvious. Efficient secure programming will not show it to you. Okay. Like you can check the JavaScript of secure websites, but they will not show that data.[01:08:41] Abhinandan: Sure. [01:08:41] Shardool: So one, structural architectural systems, uh, shortcoming. Mm. Two, I'm also an expert of how education system excludes disabilities. [01:08:51] Abhinandan: Right. [01:08:51] Shardool: Right? I know stuff, but my disability, learning disability prevents me from completing the pa- exam on paper. [01:08:59] Abhinandan: Right. [01:08:59] Shardool: So [01:09:00] I suffered. Mm. But the point is that, and I wanna make this, this- Whenever we analyze, we were talking about earlier, our-- this administration in specifically, but overall also our administration sort of, you know, aspire to not play on their strengths.[01:09:20] Shardool: Our strength is human capital. [01:09:21] Song: Hmm. [01:09:22] Shardool: Like when I was analyzing when Manisha asked me to write on this, like this week, like this could have been solved easily by hiring more examiners and teachers [01:09:30] and just training them for a longer time. Same goes for SIR. [01:09:35] Video : Hmm. [01:09:36] Shardool: Like Exchequer is paying the same money. You are essentially spending the same money, but people's equity is being removed.[01:09:42] Shardool: Hmm. Rather than increasing the stake, you are decreasing the stake. [01:09:48] Video : Hmm. [01:09:48] Shardool: And now students are protesting. They don't have a recourse. And I read the FAQ, FAQ of CBSE, and no disrespect to, uh, ma-ma'am, but it [01:10:00] said that you... The language is like this, Hmm. That says FAQ. You are discouraging a child to trust his own assessment.[01:10:17] Shardool: Hmm. Rather than supporting your future- [01:10:19] Abhinandan: Hmm ... [01:10:19] Shardool: you are discouraging them, and then systemic problems. And [01:10:25] Abhinandan: also the rejection of, "No, this didn't happen" or "No-" Hmm. You know, and kids saying, "No, it [01:10:30] didn't." Of course, the most disgusting thing that buffoon Alok of Doordarshan. Dude, DD, what kind of people do you hire, yeah?[01:10:35] Shardool: Ashok Srivastava. Ashok Srivastava. [01:10:36] Abhinandan: You have no shame. Yeah. This is our money, yeah. He called a kid a- [01:10:40] Shardool: Pakistani, Pakistani CBSE board exam CBSE. May I one thing point [01:10:44] Abhinandan: out to- And then he's still on your rolls. Who's, who's heading Prasad Bharati? Which worthy is this? And these guys strut around in their cars like you guys are cat's whiskers.[01:10:51] Abhinandan: You're buffoons, man. Where are the top, whoever the bureaucrat sitting there. [01:10:55] manisha: Yeah. And [01:10:55] Abhinandan: poor kid- Please forward this to your uncle who's working [01:10:57] with [01:10:57] manisha: us ... the kid and the family are having to go extra mile saying they are [01:11:00] not Pakistanis. What nonsense? I mean. [01:11:02] Shardool: May I point out one more thing you pointed out too, and I'm sure like, uh, ma'am can answer this.[01:11:07] Shardool: Yes, I, I had some things to say after Shashank. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. That scans were not clear, like you and I use scanning and all. Sure. But almost all of us know that the level of English and digital comprehension varies. [01:11:20] Abhinandan: Right. [01:11:21] Shardool: And if- And [01:11:22] Abhinandan: access to technology also. [01:11:23] Shardool: Yeah. And if the scans are not clear, how is this automated system or even a person supposed to- Working for [01:11:28] Abhinandan: you.[01:11:29] Abhinandan: It, yeah, [01:11:30] it, that's not efficient. Correct. Yes, ma'am. [01:11:33] Anita Rampal: Yes. First, I must say that it's not just getting good scans, which is quality assessment. [01:11:38] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:11:39] Anita Rampal: I don't think we should have gone into this scan-scanning process at all for assessment That is not how we do assessment. You're, you're making robots out of human beings.[01:11:49] Anita Rampal: If you think that we can just scroll a sheet and then go to the next sheet and... Unless we flip on the mark sheet, we look answer sheet, we look at what the student has written earlier, it gives us time. [01:12:00] We have to, we have to decipher all kinds of handwritings. Mm-hmm. And this is our human and professional expertise, that we do that and we try and make sense.[01:12:09] Anita Rampal: Don't make us into machines. And that's what our teachers, our best teachers are saying. It's not a question of fatigue, it's not a question of the rush, it's the whole plan of doing, telling teachers to be marking on digitized scans. So that's one thing. And second, because, you know, you, when you're reading, you're...[01:12:29] Anita Rampal: Even [01:12:30] cognitively, that's the problem- Yeah ... why screens now are being discouraged even for learning devices. Even- ... Nordic countries have c- uh, stopped digital education, literally. 15 years later, they came back and said, "We'll have paper textbooks" Mm-hmm. Because you don't learn, you can't... Your complex under- ideas don't go in the way you, you're just scrolling, you know?[01:12:50] Anita Rampal: So, and not everyone will be doing that, but I'm just saying our teachers are good. They were sincere, and they were... And the worst was that they were being watched. So one [01:13:00] teacher told me that, uh, uh, someone who took a little longer, you got a phone call to the head of the center saying, "Why is this person taking long?"[01:13:08] teachers byte: What? "[01:13:08] Anita Rampal: Or why is this person..." Yes. "Or why is this person doing it so fast? In seven minutes this person has finished that." So we are being watched We don't, we cannot assess this way [01:13:19] Shardool: Screen moni- Are you talking about screen monitoring that how much time they're spending on a page? [01:13:22] Anita Rampal: Yes, because the camera is on on your screen.[01:13:25] Anita Rampal: Oh my [01:13:25] Shardool: God. Like- Wow ... th- this, this sort of negates- ... reading comprehension, reading speeds. That just [01:13:29] manisha: makes [01:13:29] Shardool: no [01:13:29] Anita Rampal: [01:13:30] sense. That doesn't make sense. So please don't ever say that you need only good scans- Yeah ... because that's what our minister and everyone thinks that- ... good quality assessment is. Mm. Yes, we'll have better scans next time.[01:13:41] Anita Rampal: Mm. And that's what everyone is talking about, the scale, the scale. You know, I was really disappointed. I was in India on India Today, and there also Rajdeep kept saying, "But the scale, madam, isn't technology." I said, "Please forget technology for a minute. I'm talking about assessment." Mm. How do we do good and fair [01:14:00] assessment?[01:14:00] Anita Rampal: How do we make judgments? And what does fair assessment mean? So please forget about this whole thing about making it faster. It didn't. People have done calculations and told us and shown us that you say we, we can't transport these, uh, mark sheets, we can't do s- They've actually told us that it doesn't work that way.[01:14:19] Anita Rampal: It's not as if... Even on that criteria, you're not doing better. Right. And the scans, these scans were done by telephone, so teachers told me they could see thumbprints on it. They could see- Exactly ... a stickler lying on the scan. Some [01:14:30] hand on it. Yeah, because [01:14:30] Abhinandan: you can't, yeah, you can't. So on the- [01:14:32] Anita Rampal: But anyway, that's not the question.[01:14:33] Anita Rampal: Mm. I don't want to go into that. [01:14:35] Abhinandan: Sure, sure. [01:14:36] manisha: Precisely had two things to, that really I found remarkable about CBSE, this whole thing. There are two, one 19-year-old, one 18-year-old- ... who are literally doing journalist's job right now, leading the conversation on this whole CBSE thing. Absolutely. One guy, 18, 17 year old, I just spoke to him yesterday.[01:14:56] manisha: He's from Ranchi and I'm, I wanna get them on a show together. He's [01:15:00] 17. He looked up all the tenders, everything, you know, how this was done, looking at the penalties, how it's different from the previous CBSE s- And it's a front page story on Hindustan Times today. Mm. He collaborated, he helped a Hindustan Times journalist[01:15:15] manisha: crack a story. The second is this Nisarg hacker, ethical hacker, who's 19, who's again, the first to say that, "Look, CBSE, your system is not fair." So I think it's fascinating that teenagers are having to call out the government and say, "Look, what [01:15:30] you're doing is wrong," and they're doing journalist's job. [01:15:32] Abhinandan: And they're...[01:15:32] Abhinandan: And the first response is still to [01:15:34] manisha: reject it. No. First is to still say that, "Oh, this guy is this, or this guy is that." But I think it's fascinating, this whole CBSE thing, that young people, teenagers, are having to do the work that policymakers, thinkers should have done. Like, they have enough time, they're paid for it.[01:15:46] Anita Rampal: They are calling out because teachers I've spoken to don't even feel confident to speak out. I mean- Yeah ... one person agreed to speak anonymously to The Hindu. [01:15:55] manisha: Yeah. [01:15:55] Anita Rampal: You know? So I'm just saying, see the difference. Our students have made [01:16:00] this happen, and I'm proud to say that. And I agreed to go on a show to, just day before yesterday, because I was told Nisarg is going to be on that.[01:16:08] Anita Rampal: I mean, that was- The ethical hacker ... my motive to go there And, uh, uh, I'm shocked that the media talks about him as hacker because e- everyone... And there was one media shot one vi- video in which, uh, they were talking about a hacker, they had him, but then they showed a man in a black hood, very sinister background-[01:16:26] Anita Rampal: everything very dark. You know, I mean, they shot that [01:16:30] shot. They kept showing this animation. So they're calling him a hacker. And when I was on the show with him, the first thing I said as soon as I entered ... I said, "I'm really happy and proud to be with Nisarg because he has ethically used his knowledge and his talent for the public good."[01:16:49] Anita Rampal: Yeah. And that's what we think all our students should be doing. [01:16:51] Abhinandan: Yeah, but I think o- on, on the, you know, the word usage of hacker, I think that now is an industry standard, which is not- I know ... a pe- [01:17:00] pejorative term. I think they call them ethical hackers. [01:17:02] manisha: Yeah, you have to call [01:17:02] Abhinandan: them ethical hacker. Which are an ethical hacker- Mm[01:17:04] Abhinandan: as opposed to just a hacker, 'cause an hacker by itself has a- Could be [01:17:08] manisha: doing [01:17:08] Abhinandan: it for- [01:17:08] Anita Rampal: It could be a nefarious activity I know that- So, yeah ... I know that, but, uh, you know, the, when the media is using it, and, you know, when people are reading it- [01:17:15] Abhinandan: Mm ... we, [01:17:16] Anita Rampal: we all- They don't, [01:17:16] Abhinandan: they don't, they don't keep the ethical in mind.[01:17:18] Anita Rampal: They don't understand what ethical hacker means, you know? Yeah. Right. So, uh, I think we should call them something else. They really are heroes- Yeah, come up with other terms ... in this particular case, yeah. [01:17:26] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:17:26] Anita Rampal: So the second thing, uh, uh, [01:17:30] all these students that I listened to, I mean, I was with another one, Ibrahim, and some other student, uh, there's someone called Sparsh, uh, Tanwar.[01:17:38] Anita Rampal: I don't know them, I just saw them. They are saying they're making this so mature. I mean, this Ibrahim said that, "I can never trust this agency again." Uh, he was on India Today. He said, "I will never, never come for an exam which is taken by CBSE." He doesn't know that NTA will be worse. And, uh, uh, and, uh, this, uh, s- Sparsh [01:18:00] Tanwar said that he took three days, and at 3:00 AM he managed to get, uh, his reevaluation money onto the website.[01:18:09] Anita Rampal: But he said, "I'm not just speaking for myself, I'm speaking for all those who may not have been able to do that." [01:18:15] Video : Mm. [01:18:15] Anita Rampal: They may not have been able to see that their marks are wrong, they may not have been able to reach the website. So, you know, this is the kind of student that really, that gives us so much heart, uh, in this system where everything else seems to be, you know, being done by, with [01:18:30] impunity.[01:18:30] Anita Rampal: And one more thing I want to add here before we go to Neat, that I just want to read this out. Uh, this was also covered by, um, you know, there, there are students, there is a student who has put in a Reddit post- And he says that my school teachers are forcing us to post publicly on Instagram that I, that is my name, my percentage, and my CBSE stream, that I have no problem with [01:19:00] OSM checking.[01:19:01] manisha: Yeah. [01:19:01] Anita Rampal: He has given this as a, as a Reddit post. He says, "Bro..." His title is beautiful. "Bro, my school has gone mad." Yeah. With three Ds. [01:19:11] Alapana Kishore: Yeah. [01:19:12] manisha: No, but this is correct- I mean- Because you have seen a lot of reels where teachers are now saying, "I'm from this school, and I support OSM." Yes. That's basically- [01:19:19] Anita Rampal: Mm ... support the- And you know what he says?[01:19:20] Anita Rampal: He, he says, "हमारे स्कूल वाले तो हमको पास होने के बाद भी traumatize करने पर तुले हैं" because we passed out last year. We didn't go through the [01:19:30] OSM, OSM. So I really now have hope only because of this, what they're saying. And, uh, uh, two videos have come out and then deleted by teachers of the PM Shri Kendriya Vidyalaya from Jaipur.[01:19:44] teachers byte: बत्तीस वर्षों में हमेशा से हम physically board की copies check करते रहे। लेकिन पहली बार CBSE ने through OSM copy check करना, करवाना शुरू किया। ये मेरा अनुभव बहुत ही [01:20:00] अच्छा रहा। मुझे लगता है इससे फायदे ही थे। एक भी नुकसान मुझे दिखाई नहीं देता इसके संदर्भ में। सबसे पहले मैं कहूंगी कि समय की बचत बहुत हुई। जहां पहले examiner, uh, पच्चीस copy check करने में नौ से दस घंटे लेते थे, इस बार वही कॉपियां, पच्चीस copy पांच घंटे में check हो गए। [01:20:24] Principal: Uh, during the recent process related to the on-screen copies [01:20:30] which students are finding blur, unchecked, CBSE is very proactive and responsive to every concern, challenges, and grievances As this is the era of technology, I think we should stay patient [01:20:53] Anita Rampal: And this is shocking for us.[01:20:55] Anita Rampal: Uh, the Kendriya Vidyalayas for us are our country's best resourced public schools- Yeah ... [01:21:00] which t- which today have been rebranded as PM Shri, and now see what they're being made to do. I mean, they, the teachers and students are being made to write this. I mean, in the video, the student is made to speak.[01:21:13] Anita Rampal: They've deleted this video. This is what the report says. That the student is saying that, uh, um, uh, this checking process is more systematic and less biased because, uh, answers are evaluated digitally by examiners. The student is being made to say that on the f- in his [01:21:30] photograph. Examiners can read them clearly.[01:21:33] Anita Rampal: Total falsities. Total lies they're being made to say. [01:21:36] Abhinandan: And, uh- And this [01:21:37] Anita Rampal: video has [01:21:37] Abhinandan: been taken down now? [01:21:39] Anita Rampal: It's been taken down. This story is also in the Indian Today Because of the [01:21:41] Abhinandan: backlash. Because of the backlash it faced. This student [01:21:44] Anita Rampal: Yeah, I mean, your teachers- I saw a different statement but [01:21:45] Shardool: principal of another school [01:21:47] Anita Rampal: You're making a stu- student say this.[01:21:49] Anita Rampal: Yeah. And then he says that, uh, it gives confidence to the students because, uh, uh, uh, you know, uh, uh, uh, marks are awarded strictly on the basis of what is written in the answer sheet. [01:22:00] Digital evaluation makes the system faster and more efficient. It encourages fair checking and reduces, uh, uh, unnecessary errors.[01:22:09] Anita Rampal: This a child is being made to say. Being made to lie like this. Well- These videos are- I mean, my question is, what is the system doing? [01:22:17] Abhinandan: Welcome to Khmer Rouge, [01:22:18] manisha: all my friends. These videos are all over- May I puncture that argument? ... uh, Twitter and Instagram. [01:22:23] Abhinandan: Right. Well, thank you so much for your time, ma'am.[01:22:25] Abhinandan: Hopefully, um, people will learn and do better, so we have a better [01:22:30] generation to take over whatever is left of this country once we're done with it. Thank you. Thank you so much, Shambhavi. Thank you. Bye. Bye-bye. Yeah, um, Amit, anything on this before we move on? [01:22:38] Shardool: I wanted to say two things. One, I wanna puncture that digital argument because it's...[01:22:42] Shardool: You know, it keeps coming up by the... especially by the government. The m- the smallest unit of all this digital world is bit. No bit was ever designed out of isolation. It was designed by a human being, programmed by a human being. It continuously, from beginning to its life cycle, every time it works, consumes energy.[01:23:00] [01:23:00] Video : Mm. [01:23:00] Shardool: So digital is not some alienated- Six solid points. Mm ... separate intelligence. It is trained by human, managed by human, and requires constant updation. [01:23:08] Video : Mm. [01:23:09] Shardool: So digital is somehow better than people who know the system is one. And two, I think you will understand this, most people don't have it. Like, I have extensive experience of managing human beings.[01:23:18] Shardool: Mm. I worked in RSS for over two decades, like actively. You... One camp being organized in, let's say, Eastern UP Mathura cannot be the same in Kh- Sure ... Khagera region [01:23:30] Any system, any plan, long term or short term, you design to counteract systemic res- redundancies. And when people are involved, you remove human errors.[01:23:38] Shardool: You try to. You can never do. All these steps, this sort of permeates the more you read all these things. Not only they try to not remove human redundancies, they remove human equity. People who are already involved, they lose equity rather than people gaining it, which is a bad way to do anything. Like, I don't have [01:24:00] big words or education about it, but if you wanna get something done by people- [01:24:04] Video : Hmm[01:24:04] Shardool: you cannot, one, treat them the same, and two, design it in a way which supports your end result and not just some notion of digital or speed. [01:24:14] manisha: I think like, uh, to end both what, um, Alpna and Anita spoke really ties in beautifully because whether it's architecture or education, there is this urge to centralize that we're seeing that's really ruining a lot of things around us, like this [01:24:30] NTA, which is negating every other state government or state board that has experience in- Hmm[01:24:36] manisha: conducting examinations. So you have this one central body which is big, which is great, and which is gonna change everything. Hmm. So it's like that Trump or big, beautiful- Hmm ... it's gonna be amazing. That's what we're seeing the government do. I think we need the culture of resignations to come back in, because how does an education minister survive 40 paper leaks in the last five years?[01:24:55] manisha: More than 40 paper leaks have happened. Uh, you've had prestigious [01:25:00] examinations like NEET wasting a student's precious, you know, time. And CBSE, the most elite board, you know. For it to have gone ... I mean, you have done this examination with zero training, with zero testing, with zero time given to people.[01:25:16] manisha: You've made it very at a time where, uh, percentages are extremely important for students to get into colleges. This is what's really given a lot of kids anxiety that, look, even 1% it makes a difference. Now, we all feel like our marks have come down with this new system, [01:25:30] so that's why everyone went into for reevaluation.[01:25:31] manisha: That's why it became such a big thing this time because everyone felt their marks have gone down because of digital evaluation. So you're playing around with people's lives like this, is complete incompetence. Your CBSE heads don't know what's happened. They're giving some bizarre statements. Your anchors are calling them Pakistani.[01:25:47] manisha: You have taken 10 days to respond to such a crisis. So I think resignations have to start coming back into fashion. We need to start asking ministers to resign after such grand screw-ups. And the last thing, [01:26:00] to me, and I hope, like if there's a whistleblower listening or if there are people within the education system- [01:26:05] Abhinandan: Write in to us[01:26:06] manisha: write in to us, because I refuse to believe that this AI digital interventions, which are unnecessary, are happening without a money incentive. Somebody's making a big buck out of let's digitize. [01:26:17] Principal: Hmm. [01:26:18] manisha: Like why ... What is the sense of digitizing, scanning, uploading? We'll all do it on a screen. Somebody's making money and- Even NEET exam mafia, we keep saying exam mafia, exam mafia.[01:26:30] [01:26:30] manisha: The mafia is not one or two people- Mm ... somebody in Nashik, somebody in Pune who's leaked it. It is big people, big money. [01:26:36] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:26:36] manisha: And m- exam mafia in India today is bigger than mining, liquor, sand, anything. It's a huge racket, it's a huge infrastructure. If you know [01:26:44] Abhinandan: about this- Yeah ... if you have any whistleblower, you know, someone share this [01:26:47] manisha: clip with others- You wanna talk to us, you wanna tell us, just, yeah [01:26:48] Abhinandan: Yeah.[01:26:49] Abhinandan: Write in to abhinandansekhri@gmail.com or manisha@newslaundry.com. Please, we would like to get to the bottom of this. [01:26:56] manisha: You know that tender that made a lot of news, Yogi government giving it to [01:27:00] that company? [01:27:00] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. [01:27:02] manisha: I'm sure this is happening everywhere. Just say AI, just say digital, and then anyone can just come in and make a quick buck and get out [01:27:10] Abhinandan: Right.[01:27:11] Abhinandan: With that, uh, we will do emails later 'cause we did do a, um, Hmm. So we won't do any emails today. Let's hear the recommendations, uh, and wind up this hafta. So Manushi, you wanna go first? [01:27:24] manisha: Yes. I watched a really fun movie on Netflix- Mm ... with Sacha Baron Cohen. [01:27:28] Abhinandan: Mm. [01:27:28] manisha: It's called Ladies [01:27:30] First. It's great. It's really fun.[01:27:31] manisha: All women should definitely watch it. Uh, and we have a really good report, which is behind the paywall. It's by Aastha Savyesachi. Again, the urge to centralize. Uh, it talks about how, um, the government agencies dropped anti-monopoly clause, uh, for Food Corporation of India, and how once they dropped that monopoly cl- clause, how Adani won most contracts.[01:27:54] manisha: 9,700 of FCI contracts went to Adani. So it's a very good story. Do read it on our website. [01:28:00] It's Press Freedom Month, and we have made good use of your money- [01:28:03] Abhinandan: Yes ... [01:28:04] manisha: with reports like this that you're not gonna find in the mainstream press. [01:28:08] Abhinandan: So please subscribe. QR code link will keep flashing. Hmm. Shardul? [01:28:14] Shardool: I, I want-- also wanted to recommend that report- Hmm, hmm[01:28:17] Shardool: but I will give you another one. There is an article on WaPo about social media addiction, which is now a proven addiction, and the companies knew about it, that [01:28:30] people are getting addicted. And Meta ju- Meta just settled a case with a school district. [01:28:34] Abhinandan: Hmm, yeah. I read about [01:28:35] Shardool: it. So you should think about this like, and treat it like other addictions and how one should manage it.[01:28:40] Shardool: I, my proposal was we were talking, like, at, in the office a couple of days ago that maybe it's time to delete all this shit. Um, uh, the other one is a, uh, poem which was written by Krishna Kalpit for poets and how they die, especially coming to Delhi. [01:28:59] Abhinandan: Hmm. [01:29:00] [01:29:00] Shardool: It's a very nice thing. Um, and [01:29:02] Abhinandan: my- It's nice. A unusual thing to have been recommended today.[01:29:06] Abhinandan: Recommend a poem, not an article, not a film, not a book. Nice. We should do that more often. [01:29:11] Shardool: Oh, no, but I am a poet. But I [01:29:13] Abhinandan: sort of- Sorry, you are the poet? [01:29:14] Shardool: No, no, I am also a poet, so I sort of- Yeah ... gravitate toward- It's [01:29:17] manisha: gonna have a double take. You are the poet? Then no. [01:29:20] Abhinandan: Then no? [01:29:22] Shardool: No, but this is like, uh, s- especially like Ghalib wala context may a lot of poets who came to Delhi had die and probably [01:29:30] recognized after their death.[01:29:30] Video : Hmm. [01:29:31] Shardool: So it's a very nice take and in, in remembrance, I should mention, of a specific poet, uh, this poet is remembering. Gaurav, uh, Gorakh Pandey ki yaad mein- Nice ... who must have died. So these two are my recommendations. [01:29:41] Abhinandan: So I have two recommendations. One is a New York Times piece by Nicholas Kristof, "The Silence That Meets the Rape of Palestinians."[01:29:47] Abhinandan: I think it's a very important read. Uh- For quite a long time, I think over the last couple of years, while definitely anti-Sem-Semitism,Semitism does exist, no one is denying [01:30:00] that, but Israel has gone scot-free that any criticism is antisemitism. I think it is impossible to defend Israel now, and, uh, this piece makes an extremely important point, and in the larger scheme of the values that the world is kind of hinging on these, it's an important read.[01:30:19] Abhinandan: And, uh, the second thing that I wanted to recommend is today's Indian Express editorial by former election commission... chief Election Commissioner Qureshi, right? [01:30:29] Video : Mm. [01:30:30] [01:30:30] Abhinandan: On how SIR gets the law right, but, um, but doesn't understand on-ground realities. Uh, so these are the two pieces I want to recommend. You can mail us with your views, your feedback on podcasts@newsrunner.com.[01:30:44] Abhinandan: I repeat, podcasts@newsrunner.com. But I would like to leave you with a poem of a poet who died this week. And since we are talking about NEET and, you know, we have a bunch of, um, [01:31:00] interventions to make sure we have edu- we have school children who will only graduate to be able to seek admission in Galgotia University, and then no doubt become cabinet members of a government such as ours.[01:31:12] Abhinandan: We are corrupting the entire pipeline of what is. Uh, so two recommendations to Prime Minister. Please put some value to education. Just doing Puja path does not a leader make. Uh, so value education for yourself and for our youth. [01:31:30] And the second recommendation is, uh, I will not leave you the poem, is by this poet who will tell you in his voice, followed by a few instances of how Modi Ji didn't listen to him.[01:31:41] Abhinandan: Have a fantastic weekend. Bye-bye. Thank you all. Thank you to our sound recordist, Anil. Thank you. Thank you to our producers, Saurabh and Amit. And thank you all for subscribing. Do pay to keep this free.[01:32:00] [01:32:09] manisha: Thank you for your subscription. You're changing the world by changing the way news is funded. For the smoothest News Laundry experience, download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our paywall podcasts. And you'll also get access to all free News Laundry shows. Keep us ad-free and subscriber-funded.[01:32:28] manisha: Help us grow. Tell people [01:32:30] who listen to you to pay to keep news free. Subscribe to News Laundry. Keep journalism independent

2026/5/30

Govt removes anti-monopoly clause, Adani wins another battlefield. This time, Rs 9,700 cr FCI contracts

Government agencies pushed FCI to drop its own ‘anti-monopoly’ safeguard from silo contracts. In the round that followed, Adani won all the contracts. Across two phases, Adani and Leap India together secured contracts worth over 16,500 crore of the nearly 20,000 crore programme.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-28/5ak155xa/NLVisualByMANJUL287052026.png?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption>Illustration by Manjul</figcaption></figure>The Food Corporation of India’s Rs 20,000 crore silo programme was supposed to <ins><a href="https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1845806&reg=3&lang=2">modernise</a></ins> how India stores its foodgrain stocks for the public distribution system. Instead, it ended up concentrating thousands of crores worth of contracts in the hands of just two companies.Across two phases of FCI’s “Hub and Spoke” silo scheme, Adani Agri Logistics Ltd and Leap India Food & Logistics Private Ltd together bagged 110 out of 134 silo contracts worth more than Rs 16,500 crore. Around 46.5 lakh metric tonnes (LMT) of grains, out of the total 60, will be stored in silos owned by these two companies. What makes the concentration striking is that FCI itself had initially proposed an “anti-monopoly” clause to stop a single company from cornering the projects. But in a crucial 2022 meeting, NITI Aayog and the Department of Economic Affairs opposed the restriction. Their argument was to let market forces prevail. The clause was dropped. Soon after, Adani won every single contract in the second round of Phase 1. By Phase 2, a duopoly had emerged. Adani and Leap dominated India’s largest modern grain storage programme.India’s competition watchdog, the Competition Commission of India, flags excessive market concentration and monopolistic behaviour across sectors. In the case of the silo project, government departments themselves pushed for the removal of safeguards in ways that favoured large corporations over smaller players. Though both AAL and LIFL were the lowest bidders in the contracts they bagged, such concentration would not have been possible with anti-monopoly safeguards.<iframe class="trinity-player trinity-iframe" src="https://trinitymedia.ai/player/trinity-i/2900013399/?pageURL=https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/05/29/anti-monopoly-clause-gone-adanis-footprint-grew-across-indias-grain-storage-programme&readContentType=URL" style="border: 0; width: 100% !important; height: 90px !important" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe> How it happenedIn 2022, FCI floated tenders for Phase 1: <ins><a href="https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1852271&reg=3&lang=2">80 locations</a></ins> across nine states and one union territory with contracts collectively worth Rs 11,915 crore, making it the single largest tranche of silo contracts in FCI's history. Out of the total 80 silos, 14 were tendered under <ins><a href="https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1852271&reg=3&lang=2">Design-Build-Finance-Operate-Transfer (DBFOT)</a></ins> mode where FCI provides the land. The remaining 66 under <ins><a href="https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1852271&reg=3&lang=2">Design-Build-Finance-Own-Operate (DBFOO)</a></ins> mode, where the private player has to provide the land.The first set of tenders was floated for DBFOT mode on <ins><a href="https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1852271&reg=3&lang=2">April 26, 2022</a></ins>. Adani Agri Logistics Ltd won 4 out of 14 contracts with the remaining contracts distributed among other bidders like LIFL, Marathon Realty Pvt Ltd and KCC Infra Pvt Ltd.Around two weeks after these tenders, a key policy meeting fundamentally altered the structure of the programme. <ins><a href="https://www.pppinindia.gov.in/assets/doc/20181/22330/108th%20PPPAC.pdf">On May 13, 2022</a></ins>, a Public Private Partnership Appraisal Committee (PPPAC) meeting, attended by senior officials from FCI, Department of Economic Affairs (DEA) and NITI Aayog, among other ministries and departments, made a series of fundamental changes to the tender structure.When the next set of tenders was floated for 66 DBFOO projects on <ins><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ffAZ0d-XgMzJznek1o5ww7XacPVzeTJA/view?usp=drive_link">June 21, 2022</a></ins>, Adani Agri Logistics Ltd won every single contract. Eventually, <ins><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ffAZ0d-XgMzJznek1o5ww7XacPVzeTJA/view">70 of these 80 contracts</a></ins> – 87.5 percent of all Phase 1 silos – went to Adani Agri Logistics Ltd. These contracts accounted for Rs 9,713 crore out of the total Rs 11,915 crore awarded. The company won silos across Punjab, Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Haryana, Jammu, West Bengal, Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. According to official FCI records, construction has begun at 74 of the 80 silo sites awarded in Phase 1, while at least five are already operational.The FCI, however, had not intended the programme to unfold this way. First meeting: Big bundles for big players Much before the bulk of the contracts were awarded, there were two decisive meetings.The first was the <ins><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/147Af1iRTDTDSrWztTWXdX2bfWc6KebLF/view?usp=drive_link">Standing Finance Committee (SFC)</a></ins> discussion, held on December 14, 2021, under the chairmanship of the Secretary, Food and Public Distribution. The agenda was to discuss the proposal for development of silos under the Hub and Spoke model as the country faced a storage gap of 240 LMT at the time. FCI proposed building new silos under PPP mode at 249 locations with a total capacity of 108.375 LMT. In the meeting, the Department of Economic Affairs (DEA) and NITI Aayog suggested bidding out the silo locations in bundles instead of individual projects. They argued that it “will help in unlocking better value and will encourage serious players to participate in the bid having sound financial and technical capabilities”. It was also pointed out that “bundling of projects might lead to economies of scale and will eliminate the bidding inefficiencies that will come up with bidding 249 locations individually.” DEA and NITI Aayog also recommended, “The size of the bundle should be reasonable…may be around Rs. 800-1,000 crore.” FCI responded that “suitable packaging will be finalised taking into consideration various relevant aspects.” Thereafter, the committee decided that FCI would rework the proposal and incorporate these changes. However, the final bundle sizes far exceeded the recommended Rs 800-1,000 crore range, especially in the DBFOO round of Phase 1. Some bundles reached nearly four times that size – around Rs 3,900 crore. Others were worth Rs 2,400 crore and Rs 1,900 crore. Such large bundles often favour companies with deep balance sheets, effectively shutting out smaller players who may still have had the technical capability and operational capacity to run silos.Second meeting: The ‘anti-monopoly clause’ comes offAround two weeks after the first few tenders were floated, the Public Private Partnership Appraisal Committee (PPPAC) met under the chairmanship of Ajay Seth, Secretary, Economic Affairs, on <ins><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kSbTAjTGg4LD5BUty3vaJUHJJo_h0uYw/view">May 13, 2022</a></ins>. FCI informed the committee that in its current formulation of tenders, “maximum one project can be awarded to a single bidder”. This meant that even if a company won the lowest bid for multiple projects, it would be allowed to get only one. The remaining projects would go to other bidders, even if their bids were slightly higher. Such caps are usually put to prevent monopolies, distribute work among multiple vendors and reduce dependency on a single company.FCI argued that there are very few silo operators in India and they also depend on foreign technology. It added, “In order to prevent monopolisation, the provision of restriction of one bundle to one bidder may be kept.” Though it was clarified that this restriction would be temporary – a bidder who wins in Phase 1 can bid again in Phase 2. But NITI Aayog objected to this ‘anti-monopoly’ clause. It argued that since the country needs 240 LMT of storage and only 24.75 LMT across 66 locations is being developed in this round, “the presumption of concentrations and monopoly of storage capacity does not appear to be well founded”. <ins>It further suggested that “in order to get financially sound bids” and “in the interest of competition and letting market forces prevail, no restriction on number of projects that can be bided/awarded to a single entity may be made at this stage.</ins>” NITI Aayog also objected to the use of reverse auctions – a mechanism that compels bidders to continuously lower their prices in competitive rounds until the cheapest offer wins. It argued that reverse auction “may not yield the presumed benefits” for infrastructure projects and could lead to “frivolous or higher initial bids”. This removal meant sealed bids would win without further price competition.The DEA backed NITI Aayog’s objections. The minutes of the meeting recorded, “All the issues raised by NITI [Aayog] have also been raised by DEA and it is suggested to revise the documents [tender documents] accordingly.” DEA went further, adding that the “minimum eligibility qualification/shortlisting of bidders should be only based on the financial capacity. This will widen the bidding universe to include financial sector players also, who may not possess the necessary technical experience but have the requisite financial strength for implementing the projects, thus improving the biddability of the projects.”A third government body at the meeting, the Department of Expenditure (DoE), raised a separate warning that received no follow-up in the final recommendations. To understand what DoE flagged, it helps to know how the silo contracts work financially. A private operator puts in a portion of its own capital (equity) and borrows the rest from banks (debt). FCI then makes annual payments to the operator over 30 years; payments large enough to cover the operator’s loan repayments and to generate a return on the operator’s own investment.A <ins><a href="https://www.pppinindia.gov.in/assets/doc/WriteReadData/MeetingDetails/PPACMeeting/PppacMeetingDetails_108_16_06_2022_14_12.pdf">feasibility study</a></ins> by Rail India Technical and Economic Service (RITES) had assumed that private players would earn a 15 percent return on their equity, while bank borrowing costs would be around 9 percent, the PPPAC noted. DoE argued that this gap was too wide: the higher the promised return, the higher FCI’s annual payments would be over three decades, ultimately increasing the long-term burden on the government. It recommended reducing the equity return assumption to 11 percent.The final PPPAC observations do not address the equity return issue at all. Newslaundry could not ascertain whether these were addressed later or separately.After deliberations, the PPPAC decided to recommend the project to the competent authority for ‘in principle and final approval’. The recommendation for ‘development of steel silos’ at 66 locations on DBFOO basis on PPP mode’ was subject to certain key ‘observations’, three of which materially shaped the bidding structure.First, that there would be no restriction at this stage on the number of projects that could be awarded to a single bidder. Second, that qualification and shortlisting under the Request for Proposal (RFP) process would be based solely on financial capacity to maximise investor participation. Third, no reverse auction process for these projects.Phase 2: The duopoly takes shapeIn Phase 2, FCI floated tenders for 54 locations on <ins><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/18KulQOOtg5TA9fXHJYAWHEeX0JWbyiSM/view">September 18, 2024</a></ins>. Of these, six locations, all in Maharashtra, were terminated before execution. Out of the remaining 48 locations, Leap India Food & Logistics Pvt Ltd won 38 – worth  Rs 6,173 crore of the Rs 7,149 crore. Leap India Food & Logistics Pvt Ltd is an agricultural logistics and storage company, <ins><a href="https://www.zaubacorp.com/LEAP-INDIA-FOOD-AND-LOGISTICS-PRIVATE-LIMITED-U63030TZ2016PTC028146">incorporated in 2016</a></ins> and registered at Coimbatore. In recent years, the company has emerged as a major player in the Food Corporation of India’s silo expansion programme. It also attracted international investment as it built its FCI portfolio. In 2018, Neev Fund <ins><a href="https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/sbi-led-neev-fund-invests-in-leap-india-food-and-logistics/articleshow/63684861.cms">invested</a></ins> USD 10 million in the company. In 2020, the second round of investments came. The company <ins><a href="https://globalaginvesting.com/sdg-investment-fund-neev-fund-back-23m-series-b-leap-india-food-logistics/">received</a></ins> <ins><a href="https://x.com/Nikkyleap/status/1233614108546650113?s=20">USD 23 million</a></ins> from the Danish SDG Investment Fund managed by Denmark’s development finance institution, the Investment Fund for Developing Countries (IFU), <ins><a href="https://globalaginvesting.com/sdg-investment-fund-neev-fund-back-23m-series-b-leap-india-food-logistics/">alongside</a></ins> additional capital from the Neev Fund, an infrastructure-focused fund backed by the UK government’s then Department for International Development (DFID) and the State Bank of India.A total of <ins><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/18KulQOOtg5TA9fXHJYAWHEeX0JWbyiSM/view">44 locations</a></ins> from Phase 2 are still in the CP (conditions precedent) fulfillment stage – the mandatory preliminary requirements that a winning bidder must satisfy before the actual contract operations can commence. These conditions include bank guarantees, land acquisition, statutory clearances, among others. Any failure to meet these conditions can lead to contract termination or the forfeiture of deposits. For instance, Leap India Food & Logistics had already been <ins><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/18KulQOOtg5TA9fXHJYAWHEeX0JWbyiSM/view">served</a></ins> show-cause notices for four Punjab locations worth around Rs 666 crore at the time of writing this report. FCI officials told Newslaundry that bidders have often failed to meet CP conditions in the past, forcing the corporation to terminate contracts and reissue tenders.Though this pattern predates the Hub and Spoke model. In Bihar, three silo locations were awarded between 2018 and 2022, but the contracts were later <ins><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ffAZ0d-XgMzJznek1o5ww7XacPVzeTJA/view">terminated</a></ins>. These same locations have now resurfaced in Phase 2 and have again been awarded to Leap India. A similar cycle played out in West Bengal. In a 2016 silo tender covering several states, three locations in West Bengal were awarded to companies, but all three contracts were <ins><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ffAZ0d-XgMzJznek1o5ww7XacPVzeTJA/view">terminated</a></ins> within 17 months. The locations were re-tendered in 2018, only to face another round of terminations. In effect, the same West Bengal projects were tendered twice – and failed twice.Together, Adani and Leap India now dominate the FCI’s modern silo programme. Across both phases, Adani remains the single largest player with contracts worth over <ins><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ffAZ0d-XgMzJznek1o5ww7XacPVzeTJA/view">Rs 9,700 crore</a></ins> while Leap India is positioned to become the second largest if its projects clear the CP fulfillment stage.Newslaundry has sent questionnaires to the FCI, Department of Food and Public Distribution, Department of Economic Affairs, NITI Aayog, Department of Expenditure, AAL and LIFL. This report will be updated if a response is received.<blockquote class="twitter-tweet">FCI remains committed to the principles of transparency, fairness, and accountability in all its procurement processes.<a href="https://x.com/mygovindia?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@mygovindia</a> <a href="https://x.com/fooddeptgoi?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@fooddeptgoi</a> <a href="https://x.com/PIB_India?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@PIB_India</a> <a href="https://x.com/JoshiPralhad?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@JoshiPralhad</a><a href="https://x.com/Nimu_Bambhaniya?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Nimu_Bambhaniya</a> <a href="https://x.com/blvermaup?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@blvermaup</a><a href="https://x.com/hashtag/FCI?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#FCI</a> <a href="https://x.com/hashtag/FoodCorporationOfIndia?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#FoodCorporationOfIndia</a> <a href="https://x.com/hashtag/Transparency?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Transparency</a> <a href="https://x.com/hashtag/Integrity?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Integrity</a> <a href="https://x.com/hashtag/Accountability?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Accountability</a>… <a href="https://t.co/wdfWqLTRn5">pic.twitter.com/wdfWqLTRn5</a>— Food Corporation of India (@FCI_India) <a href="https://x.com/FCI_India/status/2061419172815577182?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 1, 2026</a></blockquote> Update on June 2: In a statement on X, the FCI denied allegations of helping monopoly as “factually incorrect”. It said open bidding was ensured via a transparent process where “all eligible bidders were allowed” to participate. It added that competition was “evident on the bidding” in both the phases.Why the Adani Group is facing scrutiny over new allegations of secret investments

2026/5/29

How old is Monalisa Bhosle? Two states and many truths behind an interreligious marriage

Monalisa Bhosle first became an internet obsession at the Maha Kumbh. Months later, her marriage triggered an NCST inquiry, abduction allegations, conflicting birth records, and a political battle stretching from Kerala to Madhya Pradesh.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-28/d58obniw/thenewsminute2026-05-276h7e1156monalisabhosle260526.jpg.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption>Monalisa Bhosle and Farman Khan after their wedding in Thiruvananthapuram</figcaption></figure>On March 11, 2026, when Monalisa Bhosle married Farman Khan at a temple in Thiruvananthapuram, the facts seemed settled, at least on paper. She had approached the Kerala police, stated that she was acting of her own will, and produced documents showing she was an adult. The marriage was registered with the local authorities, seemingly after due process was followed. For the state, that was enough to recognise her as someone capable of making her own choices.But this was Monalisa, the young Banjara tribal woman whose life had already become a public spectacle long before her wedding to a Muslim man. In January 2025, during the Prayag Maha Kumbh Mela, videos of her selling rudraksha beads had all but exploded online. Her striking eyes became the subject of endless reels and reposts and even television reports, turning her into a viral sensation almost overnight. In many of those early accounts, she was casually described as a teenager, often said to be around 16, though few seemed interested in verifying the details.In the meantime, as is often the case, the heightened attention had also turned invasive. Monalisa’s stall began drawing crowds more interested in filming and photographing her than buying anything. <a href="https://x.com/ambedkariteIND/status/1881967025523998756?s=20">Videos from the mela</a> showed people surrounding her for selfies, while groups of men followed her through the grounds as she tried to move around or work. <a href="https://behanbox.com/2025/02/01/what-monalisas-harassment-says-about-violation-of-nt-dnt-womens-workspaces/">Reports later documented</a> how the constant attention eventually disrupted her ability to work altogether, forcing her family to leave the Kumbh Mela.In hindsight, it is difficult not to see the irony. Long before her marriage became a national talking point, Monalisa’s virality had already cost her privacy, safety, and the ability to exist in public without being constantly watched, filmed, and interpreted by strangers.So when Monalisa arrived in Thiruvananthapuram for her wedding a year later, the cameras followed her there too. By then, she had become more than just a viral face from the Kumbh. She was a public character onto whom people were projecting their fantasies and political narratives, and even ideological anxieties.The wedding itself quickly became something larger than the couple at its centre. Senior leaders of the Communist Party of India (Marxist) [CPI(M)] — including then Kerala Education Minister V Sivankutty, party state secretary MV Govindan, and Rajya Sabha MP AA Rahim — attended the ceremony and publicly endorsed the couple. Invoking the idea of the “real Kerala story”, they positioned the marriage as a rebuttal to The Kerala Story, the controversial film that portrayed the state as a site of organised religious radicalisation. <figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-28/ozoxjwz1/thenewsminute2026-05-27xsdbdc5vWhatsApp-Image-2026-05-27-at-12.19.37.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption>CPI(M) leaders including MV Govindan, V Sivankutty, and AA Rahim attend the wedding of Monalisa Bhosle and Farman Khan in Thiruvananthapuram on March 11, 2026. The marriage was publicly hailed by Left leaders as “the real Kerala story”.</figcaption></figure>Within days, however, another version of Monalisa’s story began taking shape hundreds of kilometres away in Madhya Pradesh. An activist’s complaint before the National Commission for Scheduled Tribes (NCST) questioned whether she was even an adult. A hospital birth register surfaced, showing she was still a minor. An FIR alleging abduction was registered against her husband Farman, who is from Bhagpat district in Uttar Pradesh.The same marriage that Kerala’s political leadership had celebrated as proof of the state’s secular values was now being reframed in Madhya Pradesh as a case of child marriage, abduction, conspiracy, and “love jihad.” Very quickly, the relationship became part of a symbolic political confrontation between two states and their dominant ideologies.In the months since, Monalisa and Farman have gradually vanished from the public eye. Though Farman has secured interim protection from arrest through a court order, the outcome of the Madhya Pradesh probe could still determine whether charges under the Protection of Children from Sexual Offences (POCSO) Act are eventually invoked against him.While pursuing the story, TNM reviewed entries from the Madhya Pradesh government’s Samagra portal, an all-inclusive digital database that showed that Monalisa’s date of birth had been altered by her family in May 2025. This was months before the marriage, and even before she and Farman purportedly met in August that year. Who altered this and why remains unclear. And hospital records submitted to the NCST have further complicated the story.The making of the ‘real Kerala story’Despite the harassment she had to endure, the viral attention surrounding Monalisa also appeared to open doors for her. Modelling opportunities and film offers came knocking, including from outside Hindi cinema. Somewhere along that trajectory, she met Farman Khan.According to the couple, they first met during the pooja ceremony of the Malayalam film Nagamma, which was <a href="https://youtu.be/12_foh3_MkA?si=npGCcfdYstUyidS5">held on August 26, 2025</a>. “I was the lead villain in the film and she was the heroine,” Farman later told reporters in Thiruvananthapuram. “It was from there that Monalisa proposed to me.”“Yes, it was I who proposed first,” Monalisa added with a giggle.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-28/70y4ympd/thenewsminute2026-05-27kt185384Screenshot-2026-05-27-12.38.30-PM.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption>Monalisa Bhosle and Farman Khan at the pooja ceremony of the Malayalam film Nagamma in August 2025. The couple later said this was where they first met before eventually marrying in Kerala months later. (Screengrab/Manorama News)</figcaption></figure><iframe class="trinity-player trinity-iframe" src="https://trinitymedia.ai/player/trinity-i/2900013399/?pageURL=https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/05/28/how-old-is-monalisa-bhosle-two-states-and-many-truths-behind-an-interreligious-marriage&readContentType=URL" style="border: 0; width: 100% !important; height: 90px !important" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe> The couple’s press conference on March 12, held less than 24 hours after their wedding, unfolded against the backdrop of a controversy that had already begun gathering momentum online. Claims of “love jihad” were circulating in sections of the Hindi media, and the couple spent much of the interaction denying allegations of conversion and coercion, while also expressing surprise at the scale of attention their marriage had received.“We thought we would have a small wedding,” Farman said. “But it turned out to be much bigger, with a lot of people.” He also repeatedly denied claims of “love jihad” and insisted neither he nor Monalisa had converted religions. “Our wedding happened as per Hindu tradition,” Monalisa added.Farman repeatedly emphasised that he had married Monalisa according to Hindu rituals because “I wanted her happiness.” “There is nothing in love that says I must become Hindu or she must become Muslim,” he said. “All religions are equal.”At several points during the interaction, the couple physically displayed documents before the media. Farman held up copies of Monalisa’s Aadhaar card, PAN card, and birth certificate, all carrying the ‘January 1, 2008’ date of birth. He also showed reporters the marriage certificate issued through Kerala’s K-SMART portal.“If she were underage, the wedding would not have happened,” he insisted. “This is a legally registered marriage.”Looking back, the repeated emphasis on paperwork now feels significant. Even then, the couple appeared aware that their relationship would ultimately be judged through documents as much as through public opinion.The press interaction also offered glimpses into the personal pressures surrounding the marriage, details that later became overshadowed by the legal and political battles that followed.Monalisa said her family had wanted her to marry her aunt’s son, whom she described as “like a brother” to her. Farman claimed there had been pressure from her family because her wedding had already been arranged and was supposed to take place within “two to three days,” with guests already having arrived at her house.“She told me to marry her immediately or something wrong would happen,” he said.Monalisa interrupted him to say, “I told him that if he didn’t marry me, I would die by suicide.”The couple also attempted to counter emerging claims that Monalisa had “run away” from home. They said her father had travelled with her to Kerala for some film-related matter. He was aware of the wedding, they said, though he was upset and did not attend the ceremony.The significance of Kerala itself surfaced repeatedly during the interaction. Farman, who said he had been living in Thiruvananthapuram for the past one-and-a-half years while working in Malayalam cinema, praised the state multiple times for its treatment of the couple.“This is something great in Kerala,” he said. “There are no differences based on caste here. All humans are seen as humans.”<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-28/4ifw2eup/thenewsminute2026-05-27kk5x8cfjWhatsApp-Image-2026-05-27-at-12.25.08-1.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption>Monalisa Bhosle and Farman Khan during a press conference in Thiruvananthapuram a day after their wedding. (Image courtesy TNM)</figcaption></figure>At that point, this was still a familiar story. An interfaith couple chooses to marry, faces familial opposition, and finds support in a state that has, in recent years, seen similar instances of couples from elsewhere in India seeking refuge. In February 2025, for instance, an <a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/kerala/jharkhand-hindu-woman-rejects-familys-love-jihad-claim-says-she-came-to-kerala-willingly">interfaith couple from Jharkhand</a> had similarly travelled to Kerala after facing threats and allegations of “love jihad” in their home state.But the phrase “real Kerala story” ensured the wedding did not remain a private matter for long. Speaking to TNM later, Nagpur-based advocate and activist Pratham Dubey, who first approached the NCST over the marriage, said the way the wedding had been publicly celebrated in Kerala was one of the things that drew his attention to the case. “There were photos from the wedding with ministers and others involved, with captions saying this is the ‘real Kerala story’,” he said.Dubey has no personal relationship, blood or otherwise, with Monalisa or her family. He said he became suspicious about the visible involvement of senior political leaders and the “speed with which the wedding was organised,” prompting him to believe “this was all pre-planned.” In fact, he alleged, “many of these people celebrating the wedding are completely unaware of the ground realities of places like Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh. They don’t know what is happening here.”When the controversy later escalated, CPI(M) leaders Govindan and Rahim maintained that they had no hand in organising the wedding, and had merely attended the ceremony after learning that an interfaith couple had come to Kerala seeking support. Speaking to TNM, Rahim reiterated that the episode still represented “the real Kerala story” for him and the party, and that the rest were “legal matters.”CPI leader Binoy Viswom, meanwhile, alleged that there was a political motive behind the campaign surrounding the marriage and argued that the couple had initially been recognised as adults based on the documents produced before authorities.A filmmaker, a campaign, and another controversyAmong those who quickly entered the debate was filmmaker Sanoj Mishra, who had earlier announced Monalisa as part of his upcoming film The Diary of Manipur. Within days of the wedding, Mishra publicly aligned himself with Monalisa’s family and began framing the marriage through the language of “love jihad.”<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-28/u1jw6bgr/thenewsminute2026-05-27bvxlrf1lWhatsAppImage20260527at124405.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption>Filmmaker Sanoj Mishra with Monalisa Bhosle during the shooting of 'The Diary of Manipur'. Mishra later publicly opposed Monalisa’s marriage to Farman Khan and described it as a case of “love jihad”. (Image courtesy Instagram/Sanoj Mishra)</figcaption></figure>Speaking to the <a href="https://www.siasat.com/filmmaker-calls-kumbh-mela-girls-wedding-love-jihad-may-approach-mp-cm-3435564/">media on March 16</a> after meeting her family in Maheshwar, Mishra alleged that Monalisa had been “brainwashed and trapped.” He claimed that organisations were funding unemployed Muslim men to target Hindu women in order to “defame Sanatan,” and said he planned to approach Madhya Pradesh Chief Minister Mohan Yadav regarding the matter.Mishra also repeatedly linked the controversy to his own film, which he said dealt with the issue of religious conversion. The filmmaker is known for politically charged films centred on Hindutva themes, including Ram Ki Janmabhoomi (2019), which was promoted as a film about the Ayodhya dispute and Hindu religious identity.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-28/yghme46q/thenewsminute2026-05-27nx6957yiWhatsApp-Image-2026-05-27-at-12.29.08.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption>A promotional poster for filmmaker Sanoj Mishra’s 'The Diary of Manipur', which had announced Monalisa Bhosle as part of its cast before Mishra later publicly campaigned against her marriage to Farman Khan.</figcaption></figure>On March 17, Supreme Court advocate and BJP Minority Morcha leader Nazia Ilahi Khan described the marriage as “proper love jihad” in <a href="https://x.com/ANI/status/2033784000444305639?s=20">remarks to ANI</a>, alleged links to the banned Popular Front of India (PFI), and called for intervention by security agencies and even the President of India. Referring to Farman by name, she argued that because he continued to identify as Muslim after the wedding, Hindu traditions and the Hindu Marriage Act had been “misused.”The marriage was no longer being discussed merely as a dispute between families or even as a question of age and consent. It had entered a much wider political and communal discourse, with even the question of national security dragged in.Meanwhile, within days, Monalisa publicly came out against Mishra. On March 25, she held another press conference with Farman, this time alleging that they were receiving death threats and that posters carrying Monalisa’s image were being burnt. During the interaction in Kerala, Monalisa <a href="https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2026/03/24/kumbh-mela-fame-monalisa-alleges-director-sanoj-mishra-misbehaved-with-her-on-film-set-punched-multiple-times.html">accused a film director</a> of “misbehaving with minor girls” in the guise of films. Though she did not name him during the press meet, multiple media reports later identified the filmmaker as Sanoj Mishra.“Who wants to be part of his films? He is such a bad and disgusting person,” Monalisa said, visibly in tears. “He misbehaves with minor girls in the name of films.”She also accused the director of attempting to communalise her marriage by calling it “love jihad.” “The director wishes that there should be extremism, and people should fight each other,” she said. “He is calling our marriage a love-jihad. I respect all religions.”<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-28/kmkuq5of/thenewsminute2026-05-279gn1bhg6WhatsApp-Image-2026-05-27-at-12.46.59.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption>Monalisa Bhosle during a press conference in Kerala on March 25, 2026, where she and Farman Khan alleged they were facing threats and accused "a filmmaker" of attempting to communalise their marriage.</figcaption></figure>Mishra denied the allegations and accused Monalisa of targeting him because he had opposed her wedding. In subsequent interviews to the media, <a href="https://www.hindustantimes.com/htcity/cinema/acting-karna-maine-sikhaya-aur-mujhe-hi-phansa-rahi-hain-director-sanoj-mishra-on-sexual-assault-allegation-by-monalisa-101774521272835.html">he claimed</a> he had “supported” her career and threatened legal action against her.Notably, in March 2025, nearly a year before the wedding controversy, Mishra had been <a href="https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/delhi-police-arrest-director-sanoj-mishra-rape-miscarriage-9916549/">arrested</a> in connection with a rape case filed by a woman who accused him of repeated sexual assault, forced abortions, and intimidation. The tensions escalated further on April 29, when Monalisa filed a POCSO complaint against Mishra and others at the Ernakulam Central Police Station, alleging misconduct during film-related interactions that she said took place when she was a minor.Another version of the story emergesBy this point, the controversy had already moved well beyond the realm of social media outrage and TV debates. The complaint that activist Pratham Dubey filed before the NCST triggered a formal inquiry into the wedding.Dubey told TNM that he had initially become suspicious after recalling viral videos from the Kumbh period in which Monalisa had allegedly been described as a minor. The Commission subsequently launched an inquiry, sending teams to Kerala and Madhya Pradesh.At the centre of the inquiry was a different set of documents from the ones shown in Kerala.The couple submitted Monalisa’s Aadhaar card at the Arumanoor Sree Nainar Devi temple. According to this document, she was born on January 1, 2008, which made her 18 years and two months old at the time of the wedding. The Aadhaar card, which reportedly carried the same date of birth since it was first issued in 2015, was verified by police through a scanner before being accepted by temple authorities.An initial investigation by Kerala police also found that a new birth certificate had been issued for Monalisa on June 5, 2025, carrying the same January 1, 2008 date of birth. There appeared to be no basis for confusion, as the certificate was issued at the request of her parents.The Madhya Pradesh government’s Samagra portal showed that requests to alter details for multiple members of Monalisa’s family, including her date of birth, had been submitted on May 20, 2025, and the revised certificate was issued the following month. According to the portal entries reviewed by TNM, Monalisa’s date of birth was changed from January 1, 2009, to January 1, 2008. At the same time, the date of birth of her younger brother, Ajaysingh Bhosale, was changed from January 1, 2008, to September 8, 2009.When TNM later independently checked the Samagra portal, however, the entries could no longer be located on the website.Notably, the request had been filed at least a couple of months before Monalisa and Farman purportedly met in August 2025. Since the birth certificate had been obtained by Monalisa’s own family, Farman and Monalisa insisted that it was proof of her age. But the twist came in the form of a hospital register. According to the NCST report, investigators found entries in a government hospital birth register in Maheshwar, Madhya Pradesh, showing Monalisa’s date of birth as December 30, 2009. “The birth register maintained at the hospital records the name of Monalisa Bhosale’s mother asLata Bai, her husband’s name as Jaisingh, and the actual date and time of birth. The date is recorded as December 30, 2009, and the time is recorded as 5.50 pm,” the NCST report noted.If this is accurate, that would make Monalisa 16 years old at the time of the wedding.So why did Monalisa’s parents ask for a new certificate in May 2025?The parents told the NCST that they asked for Monalisa’s birth certificate to be issued for January 1, 2008 based on an estimate of her birth, rather than any formal birth records. The Commission ultimately concluded that the birth certificate used during the marriage process had been based on an estimated date, while the hospital register reflected Monalisa’s “actual” date of birth. It then concluded that Monalisa, being a minor, had been kidnapped.On March 25, an FIR was lodged against Farman at the Maheshwar station in Madhya Pradesh based on a complaint by Monalisa’s father, charged under Section 137(2) of the Bharatiya Nyaya Sanhita (BNS), relating to abduction.A friend of Farman’s who spoke to TNM said that no matter what the confusion regarding the birth certificate was, Farman had not made any wrong claims. He married Monalisa with reason to believe that she was an adult, he said. In fact, the latest petition filed by Monalisa and Farman before the Madhya Pradesh High Court presents a dramatically different version of events. Seeking restoration of her cancelled birth certificate carrying the January 1, 2008 date, the petition alleges that the hospital records themselves were forged after Monalisa’s wedding, as part of a coordinated effort to criminalise the relationship. As per the plea, Monalisa was born at home in 2008, while her younger brother was born at the Community Health Centre in Maheshwar in 2009. The couple allege that records belonging to the younger brother were later manipulated by substituting Monalisa’s name in order to falsely project her as a minor.The petition specifically names Monalisa’s father Jaisingh Bhosle, activist Pratham Dubey who filed the complaint with the NCST, filmmaker Sanoj Mishra, Kerala VHP state general secretary Anil Vilayil, and lawyer Neyyattinkara P Nagaraj as part of an alleged conspiracy surrounding the case.According to Monalisa’s counsel Subhash Chandran, Nagaraj is a Sangh Parivar-aligned figure from Kerala who allegedly coordinated with people in Madhya Pradesh to fabricate records linked to the hospital register. Both Nagaraj and Anil Vilayil have also been publicly campaigning against Farman in television debates and social media discussions, repeatedly framing the marriage as “love jihad” and portraying him as a “terrorist”.It further alleges that Monalisa’s “genuine” birth certificate was removed from the government portal after the marriage without any notice being issued to her or her family.Speaking to TNM, advocate Subhash described the cancellation of Monalisa’s birth certificate as “arbitrary” and “against natural justice.” He said Monalisa was not issued a notice or even given an opportunity to be heard before the certificate was cancelled.“You cannot simply decide that someone’s birth certificate is invalid without hearing them,” he said. “This is not a banana republic.”Subhash also argued that multiple government-issued documents had long identified Monalisa as having been born in 2008. “She has Aadhaar, PAN card, voter records, ration card, all of which were issued by government authorities much before the marriage,” he said. He also pointed out that Monalisa’s Aadhaar number had reportedly first been issued in 2015 itself with the January 1, 2008 date of birth, long before she met Farman or became a public figure.“All these documents existed much before the marriage. You cannot now suddenly claim they were manipulated for this relationship,” he argued.Regarding the family’s May 2025 request for updation in government data, Subhash said the family had sought corrections for multiple members at the same time, including names and dates of birth. He said the family began correcting records only after Monalisa’s sudden rise to fame brought the possibility of travel, professional opportunities, passports, and banking requirements. “Until then they were a poor family. It was only after these opportunities came up that they felt the need to regularise and correct documents,” he said.Meanwhile, though the NCST had recommended invoking POCSO charges against Farman, no such charge has been registered so far. Another senior lawyer TNM spoke to, however, said this does not necessarily mean much at the current stage. If the police conclude Monalisa was a minor, POCSO provisions could still be added later during the investigation, the lawyer said. The lawyer also noted that the NCST’s recommendations are not judicial findings and would only be treated as recommendatory unless accepted through due legal process.At the same time, reports emerging from Kerala courts increasingly reflected the competing documentary claims surrounding Monalisa’s age. On April 27, the Thiruvananthapuram POCSO Court stayed proceedings in a private complaint related to the marriage after records including Aadhaar documents dating back to 2015, voter records, PAN card details, and the marriage certificate itself were submitted to show Monalisa as an adult.Her lawyers have also argued that hospital records belonging to Monalisa’s younger brother had been altered and projected as hers in order to portray her as a minor.Similar allegations later appeared in reports <a href="https://www.deshabhimani.com/deshabhimani-english-/kerala-news/monalisa-bhosle-age-row-fake-birth-record-conspiracy-47595">published by pro-Left media outlets</a> in Kerala, which claimed that the hospital records cited by the NCST were actually linked to Monalisa’s younger brother, Ajaysingh Bhosle, who was reportedly only around a year younger than her. It may be recalled that in the Samagra portal entries reviewed earlier by TNM, Ajaysingh’s birth date had been changed from January 1, 2008, to September 8, 2009. However, TNM could not independently verify the allegations regarding the hospital records.Meanwhile, Kerala police officials who appeared before the NCST maintained that there had been no procedural lapse from the state’s side in the registration of the marriage. Local authorities had accepted the documents produced by the couple at the time, including records showing Monalisa as an adult. Thiruvananthapuram Range DIG J Himendranath reportedly conveyed a similar position before the Commission while appearing on behalf of Kerala Police. Sources in Kerala Police also confirmed the same to TNM.In April, Madhya Pradesh Police teams travelled to Kochi searching for Monalisa and Farman after claiming that the couple’s mobile tower locations had last been traced to areas around Thrikkakara and Binanipuram. Reports said Monalisa had simultaneously approached Kerala Police seeking protection and objected to being taken back to Madhya Pradesh, reiterating that she was 18 and living in Kerala of her own choice.The Kerala High Court subsequently granted interim protection from arrest to Farman while hearing his anticipatory bail plea in the abduction case filed by Monalisa’s father. The court later extended the protection while awaiting further responses from Madhya Pradesh authorities.In recent weeks, additional claims around the couple have continued surfacing online, including unverified reports about Monalisa’s pregnancy. The speed with which speculation, political rhetoric, and legal claims have continued to build around the couple has made it increasingly difficult to separate confirmed facts from manufactured narratives.Who gets to define Monalisa?The case today exists in multiple versions at once. In one version, recognised by Kerala Police and local authorities, Monalisa is an adult woman who chose to marry someone she loved and sought protection from family pressure. In another, advanced through the NCST inquiry and records from Madhya Pradesh, she is a minor whose marriage may amount to abduction and child marriage.To the internet, she was first a viral spectacle. To the CPI(M), she became proof of Kerala’s secularism. To those challenging the marriage, she became a minor girl incapable of consent and possibly the victim of a conspiracy.If the Madhya Pradesh Police’s probe ultimately concludes that Monalisa is a minor, then it will have repercussions not just for her and Farman, but even for the Left leaders who solemnised the wedding. And this, Left leaders allege, is the eventual goal — to forge records, portray Monalisa as a minor, implicate a Muslim man, and smear a state.People previously in touch with the couple told TNM they have recently become unreachable, with their phones switched off for several days.This report was <ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/news/how-old-is-monalisa-bhosle-two-states-many-truths-behind-an-interreligious-marriage">republished</a></ins> from The News Minute as part of The News Minute-Newslaundry alliance.Plot twist! The ‘Real Kerala Story’: Keralites converting to Hinduism more than Islam

2026/5/28

Siddaramaiah asked to resign

In Tamil Nadu, after four AIADMK MLAs resigned and joined the ruling TVK where more MLAs could follow, we found out who engineered the operation and what the political repercussions could be.<figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-26/mr48gzgh/thenewsminute2026-05-26f3vpcmzjsiddaramiahdks.jpg.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&dpr=1.0&format=webp" alt="Cutouts of Siddaramaiah and DK Shivakumar" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>Welcome to this week’s Powertrip, a political newsletter curated exclusively for subscribers of The News Minute and Newslaundry. This week’s edition is by Dhanya Rajendran, Shabbir Ahmed, and Pooja Prasanna.We have learnt that the Congress high command has asked CM Siddaramaiah to resign, putting an end to months of speculation about the Karnataka leadership tussle. The CM has sought a day’s time and has also rejected the high command’s suggestion that he contest a Rajya Sabha seat.For the next story, we spoke to TVK and other Tamil Nadu political sources on the AIADMK defection saga. While it seems TVK carefully engineered the operation, one name from the AIADMK emerged in the behind-the-scenes machinations, which may not surprise anyone.For those who can’t access the full newsletter, get a subscription and read every Tuesday.<iframe class="trinity-player trinity-iframe" src="https://trinitymedia.ai/player/trinity-i/2900013399/?pageURL=https://www.newslaundry.com/2026/05/27/siddaramaiah-asked-to-resign&readContentType=URL" style="border: 0; width: 100% !important; height: 90px !important" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"></iframe> <h2>Inside Track</h2><h4>Exclusive stories, for your eyes only</h4><h3>New CM for Karnataka soon</h3>After a meeting between Congress president Mallikarjun Kharge, Rahul Gandhi, Karnataka Chief Minister Siddaramaiah, Deputy Chief Minister DK Shivakumar, and Congress general secretary KC Venugopal, the party maintained that discussions were limited to the upcoming Rajya Sabha elections in June.However, TNM has reliably learnt that Siddaramaiah was asked to tender his resignation. Though the Congress leadership wanted it done immediately, Siddaramaiah is learnt to have sought a day’s time, saying he wanted to return to Bengaluru, speak to cabinet colleagues and confidants, and then resign. It is now expected that Siddaramaiah will resign on Thursday, May 28. One leader told us that it was an amicable meeting where Siddaramaiah was thanked for his services to the party and asked to make way for others. Kharge and Rahul Gandhi pointed out that others too needed to be given an opportunity. Sources also confirmed to TNM that Rahul Gandhi and Mallikarjun Kharge asked Siddaramaiah to contest for a Rajya Sabha seat and become the Congress’s prominent OBC face in New Delhi. Siddaramaiah, however, is learnt to have disagreed with the proposal for now.This move by the Congress leadership is not entirely surprising. When the party came to power in 2023, DK Shivakumar had staked claim to the chief minister’s post. At the time, he was assured that the arrangement would be reviewed after Siddaramaiah completed two-and-a-half years in office.Over the last six to eight months, DKS has been mounting pressure on the party leadership to take a decision on the transition.<h3>AIADMK defections and Leema Rose: Why EPS is stuck</h3>The resignation of four AIADMK MLAs and their immediate entry into the TVK has created a political flutter in Tamil Nadu. AIADMK sources say at least 12 more legislators could soon follow. So how did this saga of horse trading begin? Who engineered this operation and what could its political repercussions be? According to TVK sources, senior leader Sengottaiyan, a former AIADMK heavyweight, began sending out feelers to AIADMK MLAs soon after the Assembly election results were declared on May 4.A faction within the AIADMK led by SP Velumani and CV Shanmugam was initially prepared to defect en masse to the TVK. But the group is said to have placed several conditions before Vijay, including demands for 10 cabinet berths and key portfolios such as PWD, highways, and health. Another major demand was that the TVK sever ties with the Congress, which had already extended support to Vijay’s government.According to these sources, Vijay was unwilling to break ties with the Congress. He also insisted that any AIADMK MLA wishing to join the TVK must first resign from the Assembly and seek a fresh mandate through bye-elections.This model of horse trading is not entirely new. A similar strategy was seen in Karnataka in 2019, where the BJP managed to bring down the Congress-JD(S) government after several MLAs resigned from the Assembly and later contested bye-elections on BJP tickets. In TVK’s case, winning a few bye-elections will ensure they have a simple majority in the Assembly and not be dependent on allies. The AIADMK leadership led by Edappadi K Palaniswami is worried that more MLAs could resign and join the TVK in the coming weeks. But party insiders say their bigger concern is that the TVK is now in talks with a few legislators from the Edappadi camp itself. Unlike several rebel MLAs who face allegations and corruption cases, these legislators are seen as having a relatively cleaner public image, making them more attractive prospects for the ruling party.There is considerable outrage against the TVK for engineering these defections after campaigning on promises of political change and clean governance. One political leader told TNM that the staggered resignations were part of a calculated strategy by the TVK leadership. According to this leader, the party deliberately avoided triggering en masse resignations in order to test public reaction and manage the political fallout step by step.While SP Velumani and CV Shanmugam have publicly emerged as key figures in the rebellion, AIADMK circles are also abuzz with the name of another person allegedly operating in the background: Leema Rose Martin, the AIADMK MLA from Lalgudi. Leema is the wife of lottery businessman Santiago Martin and mother-in-law of Aadhav Arjuna, Vijay’s close confidant and a minister in the new TVK cabinet.According to AIADMK insiders, Leema allegedly acted as a facilitator in opening channels between dissident AIADMK MLAs and the TVK leadership. Yet, leaders say Edappadi Palaniswami is unable to openly confront her. The reason, according to multiple party functionaries, is the Martin family’s financial support to the AIADMK.Several leaders claimed to TNM that the family had donated around Rs 200 crore to the party over the last couple of years, though TNM could not independently verify this figure. Publicly available donation records, however, show that in 2024-25, a Kolkata-based company named Tiger Associates, which is reportedly linked to Santiago Martin, donated Rs 30 crore to the AIADMK. That amount alone constituted nearly 50% of the total donations declared by the party for that financial year.Whether similar contributions were made in 2025-26 remains unclear.<h2>Zero Hour</h2><h4>A political story of public importance</h4><h3><a href="https://scroll.in/article/1093055/irrepressible-and-resilient-the-cockroach-is-a-political-metaphor-for-our-times">Irrepressible and resilient, the cockroach is a political metaphor for our times</a></h3><figure><img src="https://media.assettype.com/newslaundry/2026-05-26/a6jydkcm/thenewsminute2026-05-26ufgvmmfacockr.avif?auto=format%2Ccompress&format=webp" alt="" referrerpolicy="no-referrer"><figcaption></figcaption></figure>The Cockroach Janta Party may not amount to much on the ground, but it offers potential at a constrained moment in Indian politics.<h2>Powermoves</h2><h5>Top 5 political stories</h5><ol><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/andhra-pradesh/why-the-naidu-govt-needs-to-talk-to-women-before-offering-cash-to-have-more-babies">Why the Naidu govt needs to talk to women before offering cash to have more babies</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/voices/un-crushed-cockroaches-censorship-only-multiplies-dissent">Un-crushed cockroaches: Censorship only multiplies dissent</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/tamil-nadu/aadhav-arjuna-defends-aiadmk-mlas-defecting-congress-leaders-disapprove">Aadhav Arjuna defends AIADMK MLAs defecting, Congress leaders disapprove</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/kerala/kerala-chief-electoral-officers-cmo-posting-bjp-accuses-cong-of-hypocrisy">Kerala Chief Electoral Officer’s CMO posting, BJP accuses Cong of hypocrisy</a></ins></li><li><ins><a href="https://www.thenewsminute.com/karnataka/karnataka-congress-attacks-union-over-fuel-price-hike-to-protest-statewide-on-may-30">Karnataka Congress attacks Union over fuel price hike, to protest statewide on May 30</a></ins></li></ol>

2026/5/27